Notice requirements for an adjourned members meeting

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RileyS (California)
Posts: 55

Posted:

California

I am trying to better understand our Bylaws. 'Members' of the HOA vote at a 'members meeting' (not a board meeting) which is usually called the annual election. At this election meeting, there has to be enough ballots returned OR homeowners who are in attendance of the meeting to meet our 50% quorum, or the ballots can not be counted.

BUT, it looks like if someone (a member) makes a motion to adjourn the meeting, if the motion passes the HOA can hold another meeting X amount of days later, to see if they can get more people to turn in their ballots or attend the meeting.

Question - I am confused about how much 'notice' has to be given for this 'adjourned' meeting. Usually, a regular board meeting requires a 4-day notice, but tonight I was reading something that indicates that for a members meeting, where the members are going to take action (such as voting), a 10-day notice is required.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-7511

Corporation Code 7511. (a) Whenever members are required or permitted to take any action at a meeting, a written notice of the meeting shall be given not less than 10 nor more than 90 days before the date of the meeting to each member who, on the record date for notice of the meeting, is entitled to vote thereat;

This is a link to an older legal blog post that says (15) days' notice is required, but I looked it up and it looks like it is now just (10)

https://findhoalaw.com/failure-to-achieve-quorum/

"Notice of Reconvened Meeting – Not less than fifteen (15) days prior to the date of the reconvened meeting, the association must provide general notice of the reconvened meeting to the membership that includes:"

So I am totally confused.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Typically the notice time for an adjourned annual meeting is the same time notice as the original meeting. Also many docs say the quorum requirement is 50% less per adjourned annual meeting.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You're doing some good work exploring Davis-stirling.com, Riley. And here's more.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/N/No-Quorum#axzz2hT3I7GVG
Failure to Make Quorum. Reduced Quorum. Because of the difficulty in achieving a quorum, many associations have a descending quorum requirement, e.g., 50% for the first meeting and 25% for the second. For those associations that do not have provisions for a reduced quorum, beginning January 1, 2024, the Davis-Stirling Act allows for a reduced quorum of 20% for the election of directors (but not for recall elections). (Civ. Code § 5115.) If quorom is not met, the board may call a subsequent meeting at least 20 days after a scheduled election, at which time the quorum will be reduced to 20%. No less than 15 days prior to the reconvened meeting date, the association must send out another notice which includes the following:
The date, time, and location of the reconvened meeting;
The list of all candidates; and
A statement that 20% of members present in person or by proxy or ballot will satisfy the quorum requirements and ballots will be counted if a quorum is reached.

I think you only need a majority of those attending the Members Meeting to set a new time

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

RileyS, I can see why the confusion resulted. My observations and advice:

-- Per statutes and bylaws, the notice requirements for (1) board meetings and (2) owners' meetings are always or almost always quite different.

-- California has two sets of statutes that may apply to board meetings and owners' meetings: The Corporations Code and the Civil Code. When the two codes genuinely conflict on a particular subject, the Civil Code controls. Why? Because this is a rule of statutory construction: The statute that is more apposite is the one that controls. In this case, the Civil Code refers to corporate meetings of specifically //HOAs//. But the Corp Code refers to corporate meetings of all corporations. Which statute is apposite in this case? The Civil Code statute.

-- In addition, Civil Code 5100(e) says that in a conflict between the Civil Code and the Corporate Code on this topic (elections yada), the Civil Code controls.

-- Further aggravation is being caused by what I think are several errors both at the findhoalaw site and the davis-stirling.com site. I think the errors are due to the law on this topic changing effective January 1, 2024. The two owners of the web site have not brought everything up to date.

What does all this mean when it comes to notice of an adjourned owners' meeting, due to lack of quorum?

-- First, Corp code 7511 specifies at least 10 days notice.

-- Second, on January 1, 2024, the //brand new// Civil Code 5115 specifies at least 15 days notice. See https://findhoalaw.com/ab-1458-ta-member-election/

-- Third, this represents a conflict between two statute sections. Per the rules of statutory construction and Civ Code 5100(e), the Civil Code controls.

I trust both web sites will be updated in the coming months to get this 100% right.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/29/2023 11:11 AM
RileyS, I can see why the confusion resulted. My observations and advice:

-- Per statutes and bylaws, the notice requirements for (1) board meetings and (2) owners' meetings are always or almost always quite different.

-- California has two sets of statutes that may apply to board meetings and owners' meetings: The Corporations Code and the Civil Code. When the two codes genuinely conflict on a particular subject, the Civil Code controls. Why? Because this is a rule of statutory construction: The statute that is more apposite is the one that controls. In this case, the Civil Code refers to corporate meetings of specifically //HOAs//. But the Corp Code refers to corporate meetings of all corporations. Which statute is apposite in this case? The Civil Code statute.

-- In addition, Civil Code 5100(e) says that in a conflict between the Civil Code and the Corporate Code on this topic (elections yada), the Civil Code controls.

-- Further aggravation is being caused by what I think are several errors both at the findhoalaw site and the davis-stirling.com site. I think the errors are due to the law on this topic changing effective January 1, 2024. The two owners of the web site have not brought everything up to date.

What does all this mean when it comes to notice of an adjourned owners' meeting, due to lack of quorum?

-- First, Corp code 7511 specifies at least 10 days notice.

-- Second, on January 1, 2024, the //brand new// Civil Code 5115 specifies at least 15 days notice. See https://findhoalaw.com/ab-1458-ta-member-election/

-- Third, this represents a conflict between two statute sections. Per the rules of statutory construction and Civ Code 5100(e), the Civil Code controls.

I trust both web sites will be updated in the coming months to get this 100% right.

The Corporation Code will not be updated as it pertains to Corporations in general, while the Davis-Stirling Act of the Civil Code pertains just to HOAs.In conflicts with HOAs, the Civil Code will prevail.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 12:47 PM
The Corporation Code will not be updated as it pertains to Corporations in general

I said the two web sites, with commentary on the statute sections, will be updated.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

For an adjourned annual meeting, the minimum amount of notice will be found in your Bylaws. Typical notice time is 5 days

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 1:02 PM
For an adjourned annual meeting, the minimum amount of notice will be found in your Bylaws. Typical notice time is 5 days

If the bylaws conflict with the Civil Code, the Civil Code controls. If the Bylaws require a minimum notice of 5 days, then starting January 1, the Civil Code trumps this bylaw, and per the Civil Code cited above (read it), a minimum notice of 15 days is needed.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/29/2023 1:05 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 1:02 PM
For an adjourned annual meeting, the minimum amount of notice will be found in your Bylaws. Typical notice time is 5 days

Not notice to adjourn a meeting, that requirement is 5 days.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

The new bill would require 20 days, not 5. But how many HOAs keep up with the law?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 1:37 PM
Not notice to adjourn a meeting, that requirement is 5 days.

"Notice to adjourn a meeting" is gibberish.

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023
The new bill would require 20 days, not 5.

Twenty days is the minimum number of days the statute requires between the date of the first owners' meeting and the date of the owners reconvening. The latter is not what the OP is talking about. The OP is talking about //notice//.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/29/2023 1:51 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 1:37 PM
Not notice to adjourn a meeting, that requirement is 5 days.

"Notice to adjourn a meeting" is gibberish.

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023
The new bill would require 20 days, not 5.

You have a lot to learn.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

AidylP1, if you had any "learning" to share, you would have posted citations to the statutes to support your contentions.

But I do thank you for demonstrating to readers what may be common among HOA managers: Pretend to be an authority and then lie.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/29/2023 2:24 PM
AidylP1, if you had any "learning" to share, you would have posted citations to the statutes to support your contentions.

But I do thank you for demonstrating to readers what may be common among HOA managers: Pretend to be an authority and then lie.

What citations did I need to post? Today, it's 5 days, on January 1, 2024, it goes to 20 days, not the 15 days you stated. Do not ever call me a liar!

You do know, that it's the members that motion to adjourn a members meeting, and if the members present vote not to adjourn, it's their right, and I have had that happen on a few occasions.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 2:56 PM

What citations did I need to post?

What part of "citations to the statutes" do you not understand?

RileyS (California)
Posts: 55

Posted:

Ok

Our Bylaws do indicate:
"not less than five (5) nor more than thirty (30) days from the original meeting date"

But they also state:
"Such an adjourned meeting may be held without the notice required by Section 3.5 if notice thereof is given by announcement at the meeting at which such adjournment is taken".

So if they can't figure out the date of the adjourned meeting at the annual meeting, it sounds like to me, going forward, the adjourned meeting would have to be at least 15+ days later than the annual meeting because of the new 15-day notice requirement??????

Also, I originally thought the notice requirement would be the same for a regular meeting - 4-day time frame using whatever method of notice that is normally used for general delivery. (In our HOA, they are only required to post a general notice on our bulletin board).

But Corp 7511(b)(1) goes further than a normal 'general notice' -

(1) Notice of a members' meeting or any report shall be given personally, by electronic transmission by a corporation, or by mail or other means of written communication, addressed to a member at the address of the member appearing on the books of the corporation or given by the member to the corporation for purpose of notice, or if no such address appears or is given, at the place where the principal office of the corporation is located or by publication at least once in a newspaper of general circulation in the county in which the principal office is located. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the notice of a members' meeting or any report may be sent by electronic communication or other means of remote communication if the board determines it is necessary or appropriate because of an emergency, as defined in paragraph (5) of subdivision (m) of Section 7140. An affidavit of giving of any notice or report in accordance with the provisions of this part, executed by the secretary, assistant secretary or any transfer agent, shall be prima facie evidence of the giving of the notice or report.

So, starting in 2024. is this accurate?:
- HOA has to give 15 days' notice of adjourned meeting
- Adjourned meeting has to be within 6 to 30 days of the annual meeting
- The notice requirements are more than just posting on a bulletin board. It looks like a notice my mail, email or personal delivery is required?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM

Our Bylaws do indicate:
"not less than five (5) nor more than thirty (30) days from the original meeting date"

If you are talking about the date when the owners reconvene to continue the meeting (adjourned due to a lack of quorum), then the five day part appears to me to be null and void.

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM

But they also state:
"Such an adjourned meeting may be held without the notice required by Section 3.5 if notice thereof is given by announcement at the meeting at which such adjournment is taken".

This conflicts with Civil Code 5115 (d) (3) and hence is null and void starting Monday, January 1, 2024.

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM

So if they can't figure out the date of the adjourned meeting at the annual meeting, it sounds like to me, going forward, the adjourned meeting would have to be at least 15+ days later than the annual meeting because of the new 15-day notice requirement??????

Per the new 5115, the reconvened meeting would have to be at least 20 days after the adjourned, originally scheduled annual meeting.

The 15 days pertains to notice.

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM

Also, I originally thought the notice requirement would be the same for a regular meeting - 4-day time frame

Tell me from where exactly you are getting this four day notice time frame. By any chance are you referring to notice for // board// meetings?

[snip stuff, because I do not know why you are including it]

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM

So, starting in 2024. is this accurate?:
- HOA has to give 15 days' notice of adjourned meeting

The HOA has to give at least 15 days notice of a second owners' meeting that is a continuation of the first owners' meeting where an election was attempted but failed due to lack of quorum.

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM
- Adjourned meeting has to be within 6 to 30 days of the annual meeting

Wrong. See https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240AB1458

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 5:02 PM
- The notice requirements are more than just posting on a bulletin board. It looks like a notice my mail, email or personal delivery is required?

See the citations already repeated more than once.

Someone who knows how to read statutes and do simple citations should double check me.

RileyS (California)
Posts: 55

Posted:

I got the 4 day notice time frame because I thought that the last time we had an adjourned meeting at our HOA, they just treated it like a regular board meeting - with a 3-day notice that was posted on the bulletin board

Once I started looking into it further, it appeared to be much more involved. The notice period is much longer (now 15-days) and there are more requirements for the notice (email, snail mail or personal delivery)

I agree with the info presented in this thread, starting in 2024, the notice needs to be 15 days up from 10 days
"The HOA has to give at least 15 days notice of a second owners' meeting that is a continuation of the first owners' meeting where an election was attempted but failed due to lack of quorum."

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Are you a board member, Riley? For your question "is this accurate?" Please see my waaaaay above citation, which is quite clear. And the attorneys at Davis-stirling.com are widely respected. It was my sacred scripture for the 14 years I actively served on my CA HOA Board (until quite recently).

If you don't make quorum at the upcoming meeting of the members (and to correct my above) THE BOARD sets a new date. If you're Board member, make sure it happens. If you're non-board member and because this is a meeting of the members. make a motion that the board set a date for the new meeting

In CA, re: HOAs, it's by far best to review Civil Code first. Below is a shorter version of my above citation for perhaps better clarity?:

"...If quorom is not met, the board may call a subsequent meeting at least 20 days after a scheduled election, at which time the quorum will be reduced to 20%. No less than 15 days prior to the reconvened meeting date, the association must SEND OUT another notice which includes the following:
The date, time, and location of the reconvened meeting;
The list of all candidates; and
A statement that 20% of members present in person or by proxy or ballot will satisfy the quorum requirements and ballots will be counted if a quorum is reached."

Since these D-S.com attorneys opine that a notice of this adjourned meeting must be "sent out," tacking a notice on a bulletin board is not sufficient. And unless your HOA comprises all owner occupants, how would your absentee owners know about the new meeting?? Our HOA sends all such notices of any kinds of meetings via email. Doesn't yours? Do you object to balsas? In addition, posting it too is just fine, as is putting an item in a newsletter if you have one.

It's amazing that this discussion has wandered so far into the weeds, and that elle,, once again, resorts to name-calling

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/29/2023 1:02 PM
For an adjourned annual meeting, the minimum amount of notice will be found in your Bylaws. Typical notice time is 5 days

An adjourned annual meeting with no date given requires minimum 10 days individual notice to voting list.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 7:05 PM
I got the 4 day notice time frame because I thought that the last time we had an adjourned meeting at our HOA, they just treated it like a regular board meeting - with a 3-day notice that was posted on the bulletin board

Once I started looking into it further, it appeared to be much more involved. The notice period is much longer (now 15-days) and there are more requirements for the notice (email, snail mail or personal delivery)

Okay.

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 7:05 PM

I agree with the info presented in this thread, starting in 2024, the notice needs to be 15 days up from 10 days
"The HOA has to give at least 15 days notice of a second owners' meeting that is a continuation of the first owners' meeting where an election was attempted but failed due to lack of quorum."

The 15 days notice requirement is locked in starting Monday, Jan 1, 2024.

I do not think there ever was a 10 day requirement, as noted here:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/A/Adjournment

By Monday, though, it will not matter.

RileyS (California)
Posts: 55

Posted:

I got the 10 days from the Corporate Code - from the first post:

"Corporation Code 7511. (a) Whenever members are required or permitted to take any action at a meeting, a written notice of the meeting shall be given not less than 10 nor more than 90 days before the date of the meeting to each member who, on the record date for notice of the meeting, is entitled to vote thereat;"

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Notice doesn't have to be given IF the date/time/place ofthe adjourned meeting is announced at the first meeting that was noticed. But if no such announcement was made, there has to be new individual notice.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

The amending of Civil Code section 5115 mainly has to do with reduced quorum. It does not eliminate the 10-day individual notice required by the Corp Code when no date for adjourned meeting is announced at the first meeting. It ADDS a new general notice of 15 days for meetings that are adjourned to a date certain. A general notice wasn't required previously when meeting was adjourned to a date certain.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Effective 1/1/24, First part of d) now will need 15 days general notice but last part of d) will still need 10-day individual notice to all on members voting list.

Corp Code sec 7511 d) When a members’ meeting is adjourned to another time or place, unless the bylaws otherwise require and except as provided in this subdivision, notice need not be given of the adjourned meeting if the time and place thereof (or the means of electronic transmission by and to the corporation or electronic video screen communication, conference telephone, or other means of remote communication, if any, by which members may participate) are announced at the meeting at which the adjournment is taken. No meeting may be adjourned for more than 45 days. At the adjourned meeting the corporation may transact any business which might have been transacted at the original meeting. If after the adjournment a new record date is fixed for notice or voting, a notice of the adjourned meeting shall be given to each member who, on the record date for notice of the meeting, is entitled to vote at the meeting.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Interesting that even more emphasis is being given to noticing for members. If the legislature found it important to ADD 15-day general notice where no notice was required before (when date certain was announced at 1st meeting), it stands to reason the Corp Code's 10-day individual notice to voters (when no new meeting date is announced at first meeting), would not lose any of its importance.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 6:03 AM
[ElleN edit: From the Corp code -- ] Notice doesn't have to be given IF the date/time/place ofthe adjourned meeting is announced at the first meeting that was noticed. But if no such announcement was made, there has to be new individual notice.

The new Civil Code 5115 supersedes the above.

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023
[Civil Code section 5115]... does not eliminate the 10-day individual notice required by the Corp Code when no date for adjourned meeting is announced at the first meeting. It ADDS a new general notice of 15 days for meetings that are adjourned to a date certain. A general notice wasn't required previously when meeting was adjourned to a date certain.

You are assuming Corp code 7511 (a) applies to adjourned meetings. It does not. Corp Code 7511 subdivision (d) applies to adjourned meetings and is clear about this.

The word "subdivision" in 7511(d)'s phrase "except as provided in this subdivision" is referring to subdivision (d) of 7511.

Furthermore, the new Civil Code 5115 is clear that only "general notice" is necessary.

Civ Code 4045 describes what "general notice" is and when it applies.

Civ Code 4040 describes what "individual notice" is and when it applies.

You get the last word. I stand my my position.

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1
If you don't make quorum at the upcoming meeting of the members (and to correct my above) THE BOARD sets a new date. If you're Board member, make sure it happens.

Who sets the date (the board or the owners) depends on the HOA's bylaws and whether Robert's Rules applies. If the bylaws are silent about who sets the date, and the bylaws say Robert's Rules applies, then owners can make a motion for the (future) date to which the meeting should adjourn.

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1
tacking a notice on a bulletin board is not sufficient.

A notice on a bulletin board is sufficient if it meets the requirements of Civ Cod 4045 and the new Civ Code 5115.

Maybe you (kerry) want to talk about what you think are best practices. Fine. Make clear that you are not talking about statutory requirements but instead, are presenting what you think is appropriate. Also, the D-S.com attorneys opine (on their as yet not updated adjournment sub-site) simply that notice should be sent out. The D-S.com attorneys are silent about how the notice should be made.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

ElleN, you should stick to Idaho law.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RileyS on 12/29/2023 8:00 PM
I got the 10 days from the Corporate Code - from the first post:

"Corporation Code 7511. (a) Whenever members are required or permitted to take any action at a meeting, a written notice of the meeting shall be given not less than 10 nor more than 90 days before the date of the meeting to each member who, on the record date for notice of the meeting, is entitled to vote thereat;"

Terri and you can stick by your position that, before Jan 1, 2024, this applies to adjourned meetings.

But starting Monday, Jan 1, 2024, I hope you at least understand that the new Civ Code 5115 (d) (3) makes this difference of opinion (mine vs. Terri's and I guess, yours) moot. Per the new 5115, the earliest notice can be sent is 15 days before the date the owners' meeting is set to resume.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 7:57 AM
it stands to reason the Corp Code's 10-day individual notice to voters (when no new meeting date is announced at first meeting), would not lose any of its importance.

Corporations Code 7511 has no requirement for what you call "individual notice." In contrast to the Civil Code, the Corporations Code lacks a definition for "individual notice."

Civil Code 4040 defines what "individual notice" is. Civ Code 4040 further explains that the term applies to the Civil Code.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/30/2023 10:16 AM

The criterion is whether or not the 2nd meeting date/time/place was announced at the 1st meeting. If it is announced at 1st meeting, only 15 day GENERAL notice will be needed after 1/1/24. If it is not announced at first meeting, 10-day INDIVIDUAL notice to voters is still required. The statutes do not conflict.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Corp code 7511d If after the adjournment a new record date is fixed for notice or voting, a notice of the adjourned meeting shall be given to each member who, on the record date for notice of the meeting, is entitled to vote at the meeting.

That is called individual notice when it must be given to EACH voter.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 10:32 AM
Corp code 7511d If after the adjournment a new record date is fixed for notice or voting, a notice of the adjourned meeting shall be given to each member who, on the record date for notice of the meeting, is entitled to vote at the meeting.

That is called individual notice when it must be given to EACH voter.

You call it "individual notice." But "individual notice" has an exact meaning in the Civil Code, per Civ Code 4040. The latter definition does not apply to the Corporations Code.

Corps Code 7511 (d) says what it says. Importantly the provisions of Civ Code 4040 do not have to be met.

The board is going to have to make a judgment call about what form of notice to use that satisfies both (1) 7511's requirement for "notice" to "be given to each member... "; and (2) Civ Code 5115 (d)'s requirements for "general notice."

Does a posting on the HOA web site, made pursuant to Civ Code 5310, pass muster? If push comes to shove and a dispute over this lands in court, then I say yes.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/30/2023 11:14 AM

No, the board doesn't decide, the law decides. Posting on a website can be "general" notice if that information has been given to the membership. It does not satisfy notice to each voter regarding an adjourned meeting whose date/time/place was not announced at the first meeting.

Just when can a member/voter be deprived of individual notice of a meeting during which they have an opportunity to vote?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 10:30 AM
The criterion is whether or not the 2nd meeting date/time/place was announced at the 1st meeting. If it is announced at 1st meeting, only 15 day GENERAL notice will be needed after 1/1/24. If it is not announced at first meeting, 10-day [redacted, to focus on the 10-day claim] notice to voters is still required. The statutes do not conflict.

Starting Jan 1, whether the date of reconvening was announced at the first meeting is not relevant. In all cases, new Civ Code 5115 requires notice to be sent "no less than 15 days prior" to the 2nd meeting date. Here is why:

The purpose of this specific notice requirement is to give people plenty of time to plan their schedules.

Both statutes apply to the extent they do not conflict.

Arguendo, assume the Corp Code's "not less than 10... days... before the date of the [2nd] meeting" requirement does apply to notice for adjourned meetings.

Then this becomes an applied math question.

Does a mailing sent out 12 days before the 2nd meeting date satisfy the requirements of both statutes? No.

Does a mailing sent out 15 days before the 2nd meeting date satisfy the requirements of both statutes? Yes.

Therefore Civ Code 5115 controls.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 11:22 AM
Posting on a website can be "general" notice if [edit: certain conditions are met pursuant to Civ Code 4045]. It does not satisfy [referencing Corps code 7511] notice to each voter regarding an adjourned meeting whose date/time/place was not announced at the first meeting.

That's your opinion.

I will put this in the category of "it depends on what the courts say tomorrow."

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 11:22 AM
Just when can a member/voter be deprived of individual notice of a meeting during which they have an opportunity to vote?

A member can be deprived of "individual notice" (as defined by Civ Code 4040) anytime (1) the Civil Code does not require "individual notice"; and (2) the Corps Code does not direct notice be given that has to comply with Civ Code 4040.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Wrong. Effective 1/1/24 5115d2 only allows the 15 day general notice for a meeting adjourned to a certain date "the association may adjourn the proceeding to a date..." if no date is announced, individual notice must be sent to each voter.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

You just refuse to accept plain English.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 11:41 AM
Effective 1/1/24 5115d2 only allows the 15 day general notice for a meeting adjourned to a certain date "the association may adjourn the proceeding to a date..." if no date is announced, individual notice must be sent to each voter.

The phrase "certain date" is not used in the new 5115. At the first meeting, owners could simply motion for and then approve, say, "a date 20 days after the first meeting's date" and leave the rest to the board.

If at the first meeting, the owners adjourn the meeting to another date, then the new 5115 (d) (2) requires "general notice" be sent.

As is your habit, you continue to make up your own definitions for phrases and words that the statutes already expressly define. This means trouble for you anytime one of these statutory definitions supports your view of things.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/30/2023 12:01 PM

It's even more specific than individual notice, it must be sent to each member entitled to vote at the first meeting - if no date/time/place was announced at the first meeting. It's not to every member; just the voter list.
Sometimes a member meeting that lacks a quorum does not announce when the 2nd meeting will be before it is adjourned. In that case, individual notice to each voter must be sent at least 10 days before the 2nd meeting.
If the 2nd meeting date/time/place is announced before the 1st meeting lacking quorum is adjourned, then general notice 15 days is the method.
I know of no exception to a member getting 10-days individual notice for a meeting where the member is entitled to vote.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/30/2023 12:01 PM

General notice is not sent; it is posted.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 2:50 PM
General notice is not sent; it is posted.

I am sorry you continue to refuse to read Civ Code 4045. Per the latter, "general notice" most certainly can be sent.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 1:11 PM

It's even more specific than individual notice, it must be sent to each member entitled to vote at the first meeting - if no date/time/place was announced at the first meeting. It's not to every member; just the voter list.
Sometimes a member meeting that lacks a quorum does not announce when the 2nd meeting will be before it is adjourned. In that case, individual notice to each voter must be sent at least 10 days before the 2nd meeting.

Yeah, you had this vocabulary problem with the definition of "board meeting" too. You insisted "board meeting" is what you defined it to be, even though the Civil Code clearly defined it.

Now you insist "individual notice" is what you define it to be, even though the Civil Code clearly defines it.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

And you think because a meeting is illegally held, that it is not a meeting. It’s an unlawful meeting. You apparently think unlawful meetings don’t exist.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 6:20 PM
And you think because a meeting is illegally held, that it is not a meeting.

This is not at all my position.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Elle/Augustin and Terri,

Neither one of you sits on a Board and all you can offer is what you have read somewhere. People who come to this site should be listening to individuals who have experience in HOA's. People who sit on a Board in a minority position or who find ways to sue their HOA aren't experienced in actually running an HOA.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/30/2023 7:45 PM
Elle/Augustin and Terri,

Neither one of you sits on a Board and all you can offer is what you have read somewhere. People who come to this site should be listening to individuals who have experience in HOA's. People who sit on a Board in a minority position or who find ways to sue their HOA aren't experienced in actually running an HOA.

Oh boy, here is a perfect example of the arrogance present in board members who need to keep their “subjects” in ignorance, except you aren’t a board member but an inspector of elections, right?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

With some boards, it’s not necessary to look for ways to sue the association; the issues are placed in one’s mailbox, across one’s doorway, and over the road. Maybe it’s useful to persons on the board, or thinking about being on a board, to get a better understanding of how to keep their associations out of trouble by reading a variety of comments.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

And one very important way of keeping an association/board out of trouble is to promptly and honestly communicate with members AND don't have secret meetings as AidylP1 has endorsed in the past.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/30/2023 5:49 PM

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/30/2023 2:50 PM
General notice is not sent; it is posted.

I am sorry you continue to refuse to read Civ Code 4045. Per the latter, "general notice" most certainly can be sent.

In the case where an association has disclosed in its annual policy statement the location where general notices can be seen, it is posted not sent.

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