Board/management charging me for mold remediation

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

I had small fire that set off sprinklers.Testing showed there wasnt a mold problem, yet remediation went forward anyways.Remediation company did all sorts of overcharges and unnecessary hazardous material charges, then double charged everything. They returned six months later and again charged for water extraction and hazardous material handling.

The HOA is charging me $29,000 for this farce. Ive asked to review paperwork under Davis Sterling act which allows for ten days to access HOA paperwork, it has been witheld now for over 120 days. Im being threatened with a lien.

Why does this font seem huge?

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

I should add that the sprinkler system had an issue and the fire department took 23 minutes to attempt to shut down. Apparently they had to purge all the water into the basement. That is where this remediation took place. Testing showed that street samples and courtyard samples had higher mold concentrations than those of the basement.

All tests were non viable according to the testing company. I refused entrance to my unit for remediation znd cleaned up excess water myself. The remediation company double billed for everything, charging enormous amounts of money for nothing (2 electricians 12 hours each to set up a spiderbox) Youtube video has an electrician set one up in less than three minutes. One line item has a "mold tech" vacuuming a 240square foot area for two days.

Can i find an attorney that can set this straight?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

How do you know they did this if you did not see the bills? Plus a leak even for 5 minutes can cause mold to set up. Even bad ventilation can cause mold.

Plus how old is the sprinklers? How old is the house? There could be as esbestos. That would double costs fast. Not enough details. Plus pay the bill then sue for damages if there is a case.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Sounds like a condo. There are strict laws about the inspection condo of sprinkler systems. Our CA condo multi-story building must be inspected once a year. When was the last inspection of the ones in your condo? Did the inspectors not catch the sprinkler system issue?

You're right that Davis-stirling permits inspection of almost all association documents including bills, invoices etc. But you must follow the exact steps to request them. What steps did you take to request them, and from whom? ?

I does sound like your fire set off the sprinklers, so that's on you. An "issue" with the Common Area part of the system may be a problem for the Board/HOA especially if required inspections did not occur.

Sorry, I know nothing about legally pursuing this.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

If you were at fault for the fire then you or your insurance carrier are responsible for mold remediation.
Mold remediation is automatic every time there is a fire or a large water leak. It doesn't matter if there weren't
any mold, mold remediation is a preventive measure and usually a code and insurance requirement.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm not sure, but I believe LetA is correct that remediation is required.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I believe that is correct as well. We don't know enough details. Plus why was this not part of the homeowner's insurance claim? Making the HOA pay for it is making ALL your neighbors pay for it. Does anyone think that would go over well with the neighbors?

Why wasn't insurance involved? Was there a fire or a bad sprinkler? How often were the sprinklers inspected? Did you ever deny inspection? How old is the system?

Right now do not see where the HOA board is completely off base in sending some of the bill to you.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertW36 on 12/28/2023 4:35 PM
I had small fire that set off sprinklers.Testing showed there wasnt a mold problem, yet remediation went forward anyways.Remediation company did all sorts of overcharges and unnecessary hazardous material charges, then double charged everything. They returned six months later and again charged for water extraction and hazardous material handling.

The HOA is charging me $29,000 for this farce. Ive asked to review paperwork under Davis Sterling act which allows for ten days to access HOA paperwork, it has been witheld now for over 120 days. Im being threatened with a lien.

Why does this font seem huge?

As for records requests, you can enforce in small claims court, up to $500. fine for each unreasonable denial. As for a lien, the board has to vote in an open board meeting to record a lien on a specific property, and there are multiple notices required. findhoalaw.com

CIVIL CODE SECTION 5235. ENFORCEMENT OF RECORDS INSPECTION RIGHTS.
(a) A member may bring an action to enforce that member’s right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney’s fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request.

(b) A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court.

(c) A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Robert,

You aren’t dealing with reality. The HOA’s responsibility is to protect the HOA and the owners. That includes mold and hazmat remediation. It also includes collecting all the damages from you.

If you continue to refuse to pay, the HOA will file a lien and foreclose on your unit. It is not a threat. You will also be liable for the HOA’s attorney fees.

My advice is you figure out how you are going to pay the $29,000 or where you will be moving.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

My understanding is that your insurance company will provide a lawyer to you at no charge for liability claims. Make a claim on your insurance for liability coverage (not property damage coverage). Get advice from your insurance company.

Your insurance is a package of different coverages, including property damage, liability, and others. Property damage is for your own property, which would not include the basement if it is not part of your unit. Liability is generally for damage to other property (or individuals). Is the basement part of your unit?

Did you have insurance at the time of the incident, and did you make a claim for property damage or liability? What was the result? Did the association make a claim on their insurance?

Mold is often excluded from insurance policies. However, water damage including clean up and removal of water/moisture to prevent mold is usually included.

Was the fire your fault? A fire can result from something like a radio catching on fire that is not your fault, or a kitchen fire that may be your fault. It sounds like much of the damage was from a faulty sprinkler, and the HOA is charging you for something that is not completely your fault.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DeanJ on 12/29/2023 9:02 AM
Robert,

You aren’t dealing with reality. The HOA’s responsibility is to protect the HOA and the owners. That includes mold and hazmat remediation. It also includes collecting all the damages from you.

If you continue to refuse to pay, the HOA will file a lien and foreclose on your unit. It is not a threat. You will also be liable for the HOA’s attorney fees.

My advice is you figure out how you are going to pay the $29,000 or where you will be moving.

Robert is not automatically responsible for damage in another area (basement). It may or may not be be his responsibility. He should question every aspect of it, including the idea that he has to pay anything.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/30/2023 12:42 PM

Posted By DeanJ on 12/29/2023 9:02 AM
Robert,

You aren’t dealing with reality. The HOA’s responsibility is to protect the HOA and the owners. That includes mold and hazmat remediation. It also includes collecting all the damages from you.

If you continue to refuse to pay, the HOA will file a lien and foreclose on your unit. It is not a threat. You will also be liable for the HOA’s attorney fees.

My advice is you figure out how you are going to pay the $29,000 or where you will be moving.

Robert is not automatically responsible for damage in another area (basement). It may or may not be be his responsibility. He should question every aspect of it, including the idea that he has to pay anything.

LOL OK But water used to extinguish a fire goes down. just like water leaks. Wherever the water originated is the fault of the origin source.
I once saw the after-effect of a in-unit infinity spa that was left to "auto" fill for over 4 days. The unit owner maxed out the limits on their
policy on the first unit that was damaged below them. there was so much water damage that affected 3 units per floor for 20 floors. They had 30 yard dumpsters out the whazoo for months cleaning up.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 12/31/2023 3:04 PM

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/30/2023 12:42 PM

Posted By DeanJ on 12/29/2023 9:02 AM
Robert,

You aren’t dealing with reality. The HOA’s responsibility is to protect the HOA and the owners. That includes mold and hazmat remediation. It also includes collecting all the damages from you.

If you continue to refuse to pay, the HOA will file a lien and foreclose on your unit. It is not a threat. You will also be liable for the HOA’s attorney fees.

My advice is you figure out how you are going to pay the $29,000 or where you will be moving.

Robert is not automatically responsible for damage in another area (basement). It may or may not be be his responsibility. He should question every aspect of it, including the idea that he has to pay anything.

LOL OK But water used to extinguish a fire goes down. just like water leaks. Wherever the water originated is the fault of the origin source.
I once saw the after-effect of a in-unit infinity spa that was left to "auto" fill for over 4 days. The unit owner maxed out the limits on their
policy on the first unit that was damaged below them. there was so much water damage that affected 3 units per floor for 20 floors. They had 30 yard dumpsters out the whazoo for months cleaning up.

If Robert was negligent in starting the fire, then Robert (or Robert's insurance) would usually be responsible to pay for all damages that result. For example, Robert carelessly starts a kitchen fire.

On the other hand, if Robert had a radio that just caught fire, and Robert was not at fault or negligent, then Robert is not responsible for damage to other units or the common basement, and Robert owes nothing. The HOA (COA) may not realize this and is billing Robert when he does not owe anything.

Same for a plumbing leak that starts in someone's unit. If the owner/tenant was negligent, then they (or their insurance) pays for subsequent damage to other property. If a pipe just springs a leak without negligence, then everybody pays for their own damage.

In the case of the spa, the owner should have monitored the situation, was negligent, and owes for everything.

It is not true that Wherever the water originated is always the fault of the origin source. It usually depends on negligence and liability.

This is similar to the tree that falls from one property onto another.

Exception: some condo docs say that the owner where the problem starts has to pay for everything. I think this is rare.

Exception: Florida has laws about this for condos.

Exception: The faulty sprinkler head. Now who pays? Was Robert's fire the "proximate cause," or was the sprinkler head involved? Contributory negligence?

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/31/2023 4:48 PM

Posted By LetA on 12/31/2023 3:04 PM

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/30/2023 12:42 PM

Posted By DeanJ on 12/29/2023 9:02 AM
Robert,

You aren’t dealing with reality. The HOA’s responsibility is to protect the HOA and the owners. That includes mold and hazmat remediation. It also includes collecting all the damages from you.

If you continue to refuse to pay, the HOA will file a lien and foreclose on your unit. It is not a threat. You will also be liable for the HOA’s attorney fees.

My advice is you figure out how you are going to pay the $29,000 or where you will be moving.

Robert is not automatically responsible for damage in another area (basement). It may or may not be be his responsibility. He should question every aspect of it, including the idea that he has to pay anything.

LOL OK But water used to extinguish a fire goes down. just like water leaks. Wherever the water originated is the fault of the origin source.
I once saw the after-effect of a in-unit infinity spa that was left to "auto" fill for over 4 days. The unit owner maxed out the limits on their
policy on the first unit that was damaged below them. there was so much water damage that affected 3 units per floor for 20 floors. They had 30 yard dumpsters out the whazoo for months cleaning up.

If Robert was negligent in starting the fire, then Robert (or Robert's insurance) would usually be responsible to pay for all damages that result. For example, Robert carelessly starts a kitchen fire.

On the other hand, if Robert had a radio that just caught fire, and Robert was not at fault or negligent, then Robert is not responsible for damage to other units or the common basement, and Robert owes nothing. The HOA (COA) may not realize this and is billing Robert when he does not owe anything.

Same for a plumbing leak that starts in someone's unit. If the owner/tenant was negligent, then they (or their insurance) pays for subsequent damage to other property. If a pipe just springs a leak without negligence, then everybody pays for their own damage.

In the case of the spa, the owner should have monitored the situation, was negligent, and owes for everything.

It is not true that Wherever the water originated is always the fault of the origin source. It usually depends on negligence and liability.

This is similar to the tree that falls from one property onto another.

Exception: some condo docs say that the owner where the problem starts has to pay for everything. I think this is rare.

Exception: Florida has laws about this for condos.

Exception: The faulty sprinkler head. Now who pays? Was Robert's fire the "proximate cause," or was the sprinkler head involved? Contributory negligence?

What if a rat chewing on a wire caused the fire and Robert doesn’t have insurance?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

If he doesn't have insurance then he's on the hook to pay for whatever the insurance would have paid for. If a rat ate the wires, that could be something insurance could have covered.

We had a tree fall from the backyard of one house due to beetle infestation. The tree fell across the fence and into the kitchen of the neighbor's house. The tree was on "common area". Been there since Developer built property. The house the kitchen was crushed had insurance. The other house had the tree did not have insurance. The HOA had a $20 K insurance deductible.

The end result was the house with insurance had it covered under their policy. The HOA just had to pay for the $1500 clean up fee for removing the tree debris. The house without insurance was then sued by the insurance company of the house with insurance. Yes they did try to make the HOA insurance pay. However, we were on the hook just for the tree cleanup as it was our tree/common area.

This is an example of how things can work insurance wise in a HOA when one doesn't have insurance on their home. Don't assume the HOA is responsible or you won't be. The HOA insurance is NOT your insurance.

Former HOA President

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/02/2024 4:46 AM
If he doesn't have insurance then he's on the hook to pay for whatever the insurance would have paid for. If a rat ate the wires, that could be something insurance could have covered.

We had a tree fall from the backyard of one house due to beetle infestation. The tree fell across the fence and into the kitchen of the neighbor's house. The tree was on "common area". Been there since Developer built property. The house the kitchen was crushed had insurance. The other house had the tree did not have insurance. The HOA had a $20 K insurance deductible.

The end result was the house with insurance had it covered under their policy. The HOA just had to pay for the $1500 clean up fee for removing the tree debris. The house without insurance was then sued by the insurance company of the house with insurance. Yes they did try to make the HOA insurance pay. However, we were on the hook just for the tree cleanup as it was our tree/common area.

This is an example of how things can work insurance wise in a HOA when one doesn't have insurance on their home. Don't assume the HOA is responsible or you won't be. The HOA insurance is NOT your insurance.

Maybe it was Robert’s rat, maybe it wasn’t, but at $200 it doesn’t take long to run through $29,000 paying for an attorney to fight a foreclosure.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

If a common area tree fell on my kitchen, the association would be paying for the repairs one way or the other.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertW36 on 12/28/2023 4:35 PM
I had small fire that set off sprinklers.Testing showed there wasnt a mold problem, yet remediation went forward anyways.Remediation company did all sorts of overcharges and unnecessary hazardous material charges, then double charged everything. They returned six months later and again charged for water extraction and hazardous material handling.

The HOA is charging me $29,000 for this farce. Ive asked to review paperwork under Davis Sterling act which allows for ten days to access HOA paperwork, it has been witheld now for over 120 days. Im being threatened with a lien.

Why does this font seem huge?

Does your Declaration allow for this kind of lien? If not, it may not be authorized. If it does, there are specific procedures the association must follow. Not sure if Civil Code section 5660. would apply here but 1st thing is to check Declaration to see if a lien is allowed for this purpose.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 8:35 AM

Posted By RobertW36 on 12/28/2023 4:35 PM
I had small fire that set off sprinklers.Testing showed there wasnt a mold problem, yet remediation went forward anyways.Remediation company did all sorts of overcharges and unnecessary hazardous material charges, then double charged everything. They returned six months later and again charged for water extraction and hazardous material handling.

The HOA is charging me $29,000 for this farce. Ive asked to review paperwork under Davis Sterling act which allows for ten days to access HOA paperwork, it has been witheld now for over 120 days. Im being threatened with a lien.

Why does this font seem huge?

Does your Declaration allow for this kind of lien? If not, it may not be authorized. If it does, there are specific procedures the association must follow. Not sure if Civil Code section 5660. would apply here but 1st thing is to check Declaration to see if a lien is allowed for this purpose.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean 5660, I meant 5725.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Why would the HOA pay for a tree that falls on your house? It does not work that way. HOA does not own the tree.

I like to know why insurance not involved?

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/02/2024 8:57 AM
Why would the HOA pay for a tree that falls on your house? It does not work that way. HOA does not own the tree.

I like to know why insurance not involved?

HOA is responsible for maintenance. Beetle infestations are detectable. Insurance would be involved; either HOA's or homeowner's which would then go after HOA's.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 8:24 AM
If a common area tree fell on my kitchen, the association would be paying for the repairs one way or the other.

Not in Ohio.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

When there is damage the first thing one should do is file a claim with their insurance company. Let your insurance company subrogate with the association's insurance company.

I know people do not want to file a claim against their insurance when they think the fault lies elsewhere, such as a rotting tree on common property falling on ones house but this is how the system works.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

To Jeff's remarks: In my condo high rise and those with which I'm familiar in my urban high rise 'hood, any water trickle or flow that emanates from--the source is clearly IN my unit-- my unit and causes damage to other units or the common areas is my (insurance's) responsibility to repair/replace. This has nothing to do with "negligence." I disagree that this type of situation is "rare."

Our CC&Rs requires owners have HO6 insurance, but I think management only checks when a new owner moves in.

If a common area pipe leaks and does damage to my unit, the HOA only pays to replace my ceilings/walls sheetrock or to level my floor because that's the kind of insurance the Assoc. has. This is very common. I'd be responsible for any other damage to, for instance, my hard-surface or carpeted flooring materials. The ONLY way the HOA would pay to fix all damages to my unit would be if it were "negligent."

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

To clarify if your HOA requires a yearly inspection on sprinkler system and you deny access to them... That could be considered negligence on the owner part and not on the HOA. The HOA provides for the inspection and pays for one then it is on owner. The HOA would be. Negligent if they did not do inspections or repairs.

We do not know still if the OP is dealing with insurance. Was the sprinkler inspected? How much is the HOA deductible?

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

To clarify if your HOA requires a yearly inspection on sprinkler system and you deny access to them... That could be considered negligence on the owner part and not on the HOA. The HOA provides for the inspection and pays for one then it is on owner. The HOA would be. Negligent if they did not do inspections or repairs.

We do not know still if the OP is dealing with insurance. Was the sprinkler inspected? How much is the HOA deductible?

Former HOA President

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 8:24 AM
If a common area tree fell on my kitchen, the association would be paying for the repairs one way or the other.

Not always, not "one way or the other". Sometimes, yes.

Consider this from nolo.com. Also, Google it.

"In most American states, if your tree or any part of it falls on your neighbors' property and causes damage through no fault of your own (due perhaps to a snow storm, winds, hurricane, or other so-called "act of God"), you are not responsible. Your neighbors will have to file a claim with their own property insurer if they want to be reimbursed for their loss."

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/02/2024 9:27 AM
To Jeff's remarks: In my condo high rise and those with which I'm familiar in my urban high rise 'hood, any water trickle or flow that emanates from--the source is clearly IN my unit-- my unit and causes damage to other units or the common areas is my (insurance's) responsibility to repair/replace. This has nothing to do with "negligence." I disagree that this type of situation is "rare."

Our CC&Rs requires owners have HO6 insurance, but I think management only checks when a new owner moves in.

If a common area pipe leaks and does damage to my unit, the HOA only pays to replace my ceilings/walls sheetrock or to level my floor because that's the kind of insurance the Assoc. has. This is very common. I'd be responsible for any other damage to, for instance, my hard-surface or carpeted flooring materials. The ONLY way the HOA would pay to fix all damages to my unit would be if it were "negligent."

I believe most declarations are silent on the issue, and therefore it reverts to standard property damage or liability, which usually requires negligence.

This is from https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/N/Negligence-Defined, talking about HOA responsibility (or not) for a plumbing leak:

"The standard for HOA liability is negligence (unless the governing documents establish a different standard). Accordingly, the HOA must have had a duty to maintain the particular plumbing line, the HOA breached that duty (the board knew or should have known that the line needed repair and failed to take action to repair it), and the HOA's breach of its duty caused a loss to the owner. Under those conditions, the association may be liable to the owner for the loss he/she suffered."

Your final paragraph seems to agree with this website. Your first paragraph seems to impose a different standard on the owner but not the HOA.

Can you quote your declaration for property damage or negligence or plumbing repair?

In Robert's case, did he breach his duty of care by negligently starting a fire, and is therefore liable? If the fire was not his fault, then he should not be liable.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 01/02/2024 12:39 PM

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 8:24 AM
If a common area tree fell on my kitchen, the association would be paying for the repairs one way or the other.

Not always, not "one way or the other". Sometimes, yes.

Consider this from nolo.com. Also, Google it.

"In most American states, if your tree or any part of it falls on your neighbors' property and causes damage through no fault of your own (due perhaps to a snow storm, winds, hurricane, or other so-called "act of God"), you are not responsible. Your neighbors will have to file a claim with their own property insurer if they want to be reimbursed for their loss."

This is a different scenario; between neighbors, not between association and member.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 1:05 PM

Posted By JeffT2 on 01/02/2024 12:39 PM

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 8:24 AM
If a common area tree fell on my kitchen, the association would be paying for the repairs one way or the other.

Not always, not "one way or the other". Sometimes, yes.

Consider this from nolo.com. Also, Google it.

"In most American states, if your tree or any part of it falls on your neighbors' property and causes damage through no fault of your own (due perhaps to a snow storm, winds, hurricane, or other so-called "act of God"), you are not responsible. Your neighbors will have to file a claim with their own property insurer if they want to be reimbursed for their loss."

This is a different scenario; between neighbors, not between association and member.

Why would that make a difference? I can see that a large association with a number of trees would be expected to know the condition of the trees (and would be negligent if bad trees blew over). However, sometimes healthy trees blow over, nobody is negligent, and the association would not be paying for the repairs one way or the other (only if they are negligent).

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Because association and members are committed to keep reciprocal promises to each other snd perform accordingly; however, neighbors don’t usually make such promises. They may have an agreement to mutually share in the maintenance of a tree on the property line but nothing like covenants.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Yes, Jeff, you & I agree on the HOA only being responsible if negligent. But this is based on the type of insurance the HOA has, which is specified in the CC&Rs.

I think it's only fair, since it's your assertion, that you show that an owner would not be responsible if her garbage disposal unexpectedly failed and caused a flood that did damage to the Unit below an/or common area. Having been a director in a high rise neighborhood and having made a lot of contacts with other directors, owners, HOA attorneys etc.,I have never heard of the scenario you present, Jeff

In a nutshell: if something that I own in my unit --something for which I am responsible per our CC&Rs-- fails-- a leaky sprinkler head, for instance-- and causes damage to other condo unit and/or common areas, I must pay/have my insurance pay. That is why we all are required to purchase an HO^ policy that covers my own stuff, plus, say, hotel nights for people in the unit below because their bedroom was trashed by water leaks, plus any liability, etc.

In my HOA and PERHAPS in many, owners pay for the state-required annual sprinklers head inspections.
In the OP's case, it does SEEM possible that the IF the common area sprinkler system "had an issue," as the OP claims, the HOA may be responsible for certain kinds of work depending on the CC&Rs.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Sure, when you ask the HOA to pay for the damage, the Board will refer it to insurance and they will promptly advise you under Ohio law the HOA is not responsible to inspect trees or to pay for the damage caused by one failing on your house. That’s the responsibility of your insurance.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Exactly Dean. Our insurance told us we had to cleanup the tree debris on the common property. Which fell between the two houses and on a fence. We did not pay for fence as we just approve fences only.

The owners insurance picked up the kitchen damages. The neighbor had to pay their deductible. Which they could have sued their uninsured neighbor for reimbursement. The insurance company could have come after them for damages. The HOA was not responsible nor insurance involved. The cleanup was less than our 20K deductible.

Which if someone wanted the HOA to pay their damages would have forced everyone to pay that $20K from their pockets. Meaning a special assessment and dues raise of insurance did not cancel. Why make everyone pay for an issue covered by the owners insurance?

Former HOA President

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/03/2024 6:10 AM
Exactly Dean. Our insurance told us we had to cleanup the tree debris on the common property. Which fell between the two houses and on a fence. We did not pay for fence as we just approve fences only.

The owners insurance picked up the kitchen damages. The neighbor had to pay their deductible. Which they could have sued their uninsured neighbor for reimbursement. The insurance company could have come after them for damages. The HOA was not responsible nor insurance involved. The cleanup was less than our 20K deductible.

Which if someone wanted the HOA to pay their damages would have forced everyone to pay that $20K from their pockets. Meaning a special assessment and dues raise of insurance did not cancel. Why make everyone pay for an issue covered by the owners insurance?

To qualify my statement a bit. If the HOA had a tree that a lay person could determine was severely diseased and the HOA ignored it, then the HOA could be negligent. The HOA is not required to hire an arborist and have trees inspected on a regular basis and just because a tree fell on your house doesn’t mean the HOA is responsible. And just because a tree had a beetle infestation doesn’t make the HOA liable.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I had my own tree fall onto my neighbors house. The tree was diseased and difficult to remove. Had quotes of several thousand dollars and a crane...

We had the remnant of a hurricane come over. Part of the tree landed on their house a few hours before their showing.

Turns out we had the same insurance person and company. Normally his insurance would have paid as it was a storm and act of God at the time. However, because the tree was known to be diseased and not removed, I had to pay my deductible to fix his house.

We did not have an HOA. If we did, then the HOA would sent notice to me to have tree removed. They would be responsible for clean up of debris.

A year later part of the tree fell on my roof. Tire up my deck and put small hole in roof. The tree was officially removed then.

Former HOA President

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/02/2024 6:04 PM
Because association and members are committed to keep reciprocal promises to each other snd perform accordingly; however, neighbors don’t usually make such promises. They may have an agreement to mutually share in the maintenance of a tree on the property line but nothing like covenants.

I like it. I think a judge would also like it and you would do very well in court with this argument, as long as the association is also negligent.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Emphasis added:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 01/03/2024 9:06 AM
I think a judge would also like it and you would do very well in court with this argument, as long as the association is also negligent.

From a lot of reading about encroachments of tree limbs and roots alike, where the encroachments that cause damage, I think your first response of "Sometimes, yes" (for when a HOA has to pay for damage from a fallen common area tree) continues to make the most sense.

Next-door neighbors who do not live in a HOA also have reciprocal agreements (promises, obligations, et cetera):

https://www.stimmel-law.com/en/articles/adjoining-landowners-rights-and-obligations-basics

https://www.lsd.law/define/implied-reciprocal-servitude

https://www.encyclopedia.com/law/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/adjoining-landowners

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Some of the documents i asked for were emailed to me 43 days late. Timing eas two hours before my appeal hearing. I never had a chance to inspect documents, there is s lot more i need to see

Sprinkler system new in 2011, This is a repurposed warehouse converted into lofts. Our ceilings, floors, and ealls sre concrete. The mold tests showed triple yhe times of mold oitside exterior sidewalk and in courtyard

There have been eight leaks in basement, to include a sewage one. No testing or remediation was done

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/28/2023 6:01 PM
Sounds like a condo. There are strict laws about the inspection condo of sprinkler systems. Our CA condo multi-story building must be inspected once a year. When was the last inspection of the ones in your condo? Did the inspectors not catch the sprinkler system issue?

You're right that Davis-stirling permits inspection of almost all association documents including bills, invoices etc. But you must follow the exact steps to request them. What steps did you take to request them, and from whom? ?

I does sound like your fire set off the sprinklers, so that's on you. An "issue" with the Common Area part of the system may be a problem for the Board/HOA especially if required inspections did not occur.

Sorry, I know nothing about legally pursuing this.

I havent been allowed to inspect the paperwork. I did file it correctly with both my and the HOA board according to strrling davis. Yes, they sre condos. They are live work units with 22 ft ceilings.

I accept responsibility for the fire, which would include water extraction. But there was nothing hazardous. Im on the ground floor so water seeped directly to basement empty area pump would have done the work in 15-20 minutes. Even a shopvac. Water that went into gym, and fire control room was direct result of sprinklers purged. Six pieces of drywall were removed, no mold found.

Price tag $60,000

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/29/2023 4:37 AM
I believe that is correct as well. We don't know enough details. Plus why was this not part of the homeowner's insurance claim? Making the HOA pay for it is making ALL your neighbors pay for it. Does anyone think that would go over well with the neighbors?

Why wasn't insurance involved? Was there a fire or a bad sprinkler? How often were the sprinklers inspected? Did you ever deny inspection? How old is the system?

Right now do not see where the HOA board is completely off base in sending some of the bill to you.

There was no mold. There was no need for hazmat tents or special handling. There were no porous materials damaged. Its all concrete except for six peices of drywall.

The only reason water flooded that srea of the basement was faulty sprinkler shutoff.

Mold remediation is a scam. NIH pit out abstracts concerning "toxic mold"basically saying labs of ill repute are robbing us blind along with the remediation companies

A good mold remediation expert doesnt even trst for mold, he will look for the cause and fix it. For the mold. Soap and water, toss anything that might have mold in a trash bag and throw sway as usual. It is NOT hazardous. There is no federal, state, or county guidline ss to "levels of mold". Iits an out of control snake jarmer $2billion a year industry.

In california, you can become a "certified mold expert" in an eight hour online course.

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/29/2023 6:13 AM

Posted By RobertW36 on 12/28/2023 4:35 PM

As for records requests, you can enforce in small claims court, up to $500. fine for each unreasonable denial. As for a lien, the board has to vote in an open board meeting to record a lien on a specific property, and there are multiple notices required. findhoalaw.com

CIVIL CODE SECTION 5235. ENFORCEMENT OF RECORDS INSPECTION RIGHTS.
(a) A member may bring an action to enforce that member’s right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney’s fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request.

(b) A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court.

(c) A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.

Done. I have sent my request six times in the last seven months. The manager has trickled a few documents, not allowed me to inspect

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/29/2023 6:13 AM

Posted By RobertW36 on 12/28/2023 4:35 PM

As for records requests, you can enforce in small claims court, up to $500. fine for each unreasonable denial. As for a lien, the board has to vote in an open board meeting to record a lien on a specific property, and there are multiple notices required. findhoalaw.com

CIVIL CODE SECTION 5235. ENFORCEMENT OF RECORDS INSPECTION RIGHTS.
(a) A member may bring an action to enforce that member’s right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney’s fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request.

(b) A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court.

(c) A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.

Done. I have sent my request six times in the last seven months. The manager has trickled a few documents, not allowed me to inspect

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertW36 on 01/04/2024 2:07 PM
Mold remediation is a scam.

No doubt it often is. But not always.

Is it fair to say you have not contacted your insurer about this?

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DeanJ on 12/29/2023 9:02 AM
Robert,

You aren’t dealing with reality. The HOA’s responsibility is to protect the HOA and the owners. That includes mold and hazmat remediation. It also includes collecting all the damages from you.

If you continue to refuse to pay, the HOA will file a lien and foreclose on your unit. It is not a threat. You will also be liable for the HOA’s attorney fees.

My advice is you figure out how you are going to pay the $29,000 or where you will be moving.

The reality is the fire started with a faulty jeat gun. The matress fire was a two ft by two foot burn, that i was in the process of putting out when the sprinkler head located right above went off. The fire was out before i got yo the bottom of the stairs to exit. The sprinklers continued another 26 minutes, till fire department purged the water unsble to turn it off. There is your basement flood.

There was no mold. There was no hazardous materials. Remediatuon company claimed foremens hoses conntained fore abatement chemicals. They never used their hoses. Fire was out long before they arrived.

The temediation was not only unnecessry, but they over illed, charging teice, snf then cgsrgingba third time. When i broke down the shameful bills, the remediatuon company was fired. They eere our regular maintenance company. Im sure they gouged is at everything. The board had to fire them

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

This forum is really getting toxic; homeowners come here for help not to be accused, condemned and berated.

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 01/04/2024 2:22 PM

Posted By RobertW36 on 01/04/2024 2:07 PM
Mold remediation is a scam.

No doubt it often is. But not always.

Is it fair to say you have not contacted your insurer about this?

The ccr have no insurance mandate for homeowners. Someone boneheaded it. My mortgage company did not require insurance becsuse i put a very large down payment down.

The HOA involved outr insurannce company, im on fhe hook for the deductable. Problem is, like i said, this was at most...at most a simple water extraction with a shop vac. There have been numerous other basement floods. To include raw sewage. None eere tested, none went to remediation.

We have a rat infestation. The VDC list 35 serious illnesses borne from vermin. Vermine have been responsible for hundreds of millions of human deaths.Mold on the other hand has killed since discovery in the early sicties some 100 people in subsaharan Africa.

My loft is in Los Angeles. There is no such thing as toxic mold syndrome and according to National Institute of Health.tjere is no "toxoc mold syndrome".

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 01/04/2024 2:32 PM
This forum is really getting toxic; homeowners come here for help not to be accused, condemned and berated.

I appreciate your concern. Thank you. But I am open to listening to all sides..

All I know is a $60,000 bill is an abomination. My neighbors should be glad that I deconstructed our maintenance company bill to find that they cheated us, horrifically. Mostly because management wasnt looking at the fraudulent billing. (18 hrs vacuuming a 240 square foot hallway at $90 an hr.). Two electricians 12 hrs each to set up a spider box that takes less than four minutes to set up. Then I noticed they had actually not run spiderbox from main panel, they eere plugged right into the wall

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertW36 on 01/04/2024 2:50 PM
The ccr have no insurance mandate for homeowners. Someone boneheaded it. My mortgage company did not require insurance becsuse i put a very large down payment down.

Since --

-- the HOA fired the company that supposedly did the "mold remediation" and possibly or definitely due to improper charges for the "remedication"

-- you have made records requests to attempt to determine what is reasonable here

-- the HOA is stonewalling you

then I would proceed to small claims court to get the records, as TerriS6 suggests. Steps:

-- As Terri noted, read Civil Code 5235. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5235. latter is quite short.

-- Locate where small claims court is for your zip code, using https://www.courts.ca.gov/find-my-court.htm.

-- Proceed as explained here: https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/small-claims

Since you are being threatened with a lien and for a lot of money, you might wish to start checking around for an attorney. One of the main purposes of having an attorney is to get objectivity. I can understand your rage. But concrete constructive steps are needed. An attorney will be able to focus on what will get you results.

I think it is just a sorry reality of life today that one is often stuck lawyering up.

The legal process here can quickly overwhelm and take over one's life and replace the HOA as the enemy. Constantly weigh how much all the hassle is worth to you. A settlement at some point may make a lot of sense.

On the other hand, if you want to stand on principle, yeah, I get it.

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 01/02/2024 1:03 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 01/02/2024 9:27 AM
To Jeff's remarks: In my condo high rise and those with which I'm familiar in my urban high rise 'hood, any water trickle or flow that emanates from--the source is clearly IN my unit-- my unit and causes damage to other units or the common areas is my (insurance's) responsibility to repair/replace. This has nothing to do with "negligence." I disagree that this type of situation is "rare."

Our CC&Rs requires owners have HO6 insurance, but I think management only checks when a new owner moves in.

If a common area pipe leaks and does damage to my unit, the HOA only pays to replace my ceilings/walls sheetrock or to level my floor because that's the kind of insurance the Assoc. has. This is very common. I'd be responsible for any other damage to, for instance, my hard-surface or carpeted flooring materials. The ONLY way the HOA would pay to fix all damages to my unit would be if it were "negligent."

I believe most declarations are silent on the issue, and therefore it reverts to standard property damage or liability, which usually requires negligence.

This is from https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/N/Negligence-Defined, talking about HOA responsibility (or not) for a plumbing leak:

"The standard for HOA liability is negligence (unless the governing documents establish a different standard). Accordingly, the HOA must have had a duty to maintain the particular plumbing line, the HOA breached that duty (the board knew or should have known that the line needed repair and failed to take action to repair it), and the HOA's breach of its duty caused a loss to the owner. Under those conditions, the association may be liable to the owner for the loss he/she suffered."

Your final paragraph seems to agree with this website. Your first paragraph seems to impose a different standard on the owner but not the HOA.

Can you quote your declaration for property damage or negligence or plumbing repair?

In Robert's case, did he breach his duty of care by negligently starting a fire, and is therefore liable? If the fire was not his fault, then he should not be liable.

I will take responsibility for the fire, even one caused by the faulty heat gun, because it was my heat gun that set my mattress on fire.

There was no damage to other tenants property. Water leaked from my unit into the basement causing no damage. As i ssid, a shop vac for an hour would have cleaned up the solid concrete floor. Spray some bleach or mop with soapy water. End of story

The unnecessary remediation for toxic mold. Whoever. Ordered that nondense, when tests showed no mold, should be responsible

The outright price gouging and triple billing, should be the responsibility of whoever okd payment afyer reading those invoices.

I didnt even bring up the $60,000 loss of electronics from the endless sprinkler water damage that I incurred, as i mentionrd, thrse are work/live lofts and i have profrssional lighting that ended up waterlogged. Ill take that hit, but i wont pay for someone else inability to read a mold report or an invoice