HOA laws with Punative damages for Rogue Boards

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Florida has a law that fines an HOA $50 per day up to $500 for failing to timely give out records requests.
Unfortunately if the HOA ignores the record request the owner still has to take the HOA to court to get financial relief.
And lets face it $500 is a joke. No rogue board will be motivated by that paltry amount.

Are there any HOA laws in any state that punish the HOA in similar ways? Do any laws offer more compensation say $100 per day(that's a common amount boards can dish out, so seems fair)?
Would suspending the ability to collect more in fines during the disputed paperwork request help?
How about waiving all late dues, fines, and lawyer fees for failure to provide documents in a timely fashion?
After all many records reqeust are the result of the board fining the crap out of an owner.

In other words is there anyway to make a law/rule that will actually motivate a board to carry out their basic functions?

Yes I know crooks will always be crooks, but there are also people that will actually do the right thing if given a little bit of pressure.

vis ta vie

NA1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 190

Posted:

Great way to get people to not volunteer.

In a larger hoa there is always someone accusing you of something

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NA1 on 12/27/2023 1:19 PM
Great way to get people to not volunteer.

In a larger hoa there is always someone accusing you of something

it wouldn't effect volunteers one way or the other because the money doesn't come out of the boards pocket. your interpretation is incorrect.

vis ta vie

NA1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 190

Posted:

Of course it would. It makes being a board member more complex because now they have to navigate punitive penalties for silly shit. Doesn’t matter if its the association’s pocket or theirs, they still have to navigate it and defend the hoa. Someone will always claim the board is rogue, whatever is going on. Now they will also be motivated to do so by financial reward.

Flood the hoa with demands and it will miss dates. Ok, bingo, pay me $50/day for each request you missed.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NA1 on 12/27/2023 1:33 PM
Of course it would. It makes being a board member more complex because now they have to navigate punitive penalties for silly shit. Doesn’t matter if its the association’s pocket or theirs, they still have to navigate it and defend the hoa. Someone will always claim the board is rogue, whatever is going on. Now they will also be motivated to do so by financial reward.

Flood the hoa with demands and it will miss dates. Ok, bingo, pay me $50/day for each request you missed.

I agree.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/27/2023 1:18 PM
Florida has a law that fines an HOA $50 per day up to $500 for failing to timely give out records requests.
Unfortunately if the HOA ignores the record request the owner still has to take the HOA to court to get financial relief.
And lets face it $500 is a joke. No rogue board will be motivated by that paltry amount.

Are there any HOA laws in any state that punish the HOA in similar ways? Do any laws offer more compensation say $100 per day(that's a common amount boards can dish out, so seems fair)?
Would suspending the ability to collect more in fines during the disputed paperwork request help?
How about waiving all late dues, fines, and lawyer fees for failure to provide documents in a timely fashion?
After all many records reqeust are the result of the board fining the crap out of an owner.

In other words is there anyway to make a law/rule that will actually motivate a board to carry out their basic functions?

Yes I know crooks will always be crooks, but there are also people that will actually do the right thing if given a little bit of pressure.

You should run this by Terri

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NA1 on 12/27/2023 1:33 PM
Of course it would. It makes being a board member more complex because now they have to navigate punitive penalties for silly shit. Doesn’t matter if its the association’s pocket or theirs, they still have to navigate it and defend the hoa. Someone will always claim the board is rogue, whatever is going on. Now they will also be motivated to do so by financial reward.

Flood the hoa with demands and it will miss dates. Ok, bingo, pay me $50/day for each request you missed.

so access to HOA records is "silly shit" according to you? What's next holding elections on time, holding board meetings, taking minutes are also silly shit?

Let me guess you think it's cheaper for an HOA to get sued for ignoring legal records requests? can you show me the math equation that proves that financial argument? HOA Lawyers charge $400 per hour, and the fee is $50/day. Maybe you are using that new common core math?

vis ta vie

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Texas TPC 209 has similar punitive measures //and// allows owners to bring disputes over record inspections to Texas small claims court. The latter makes life a lot easier for owners who want the transparency to which they are lawfully entitled, and boards should take note. In addition, TPC 209 orders HOAs to pay owners any attorney fees they incurred. I call the latter pretty serious "incentivizing."

I believe: Legislatures feel that HOA/COA records laws are "sunshine laws." Boards are staffed by unpaid volunteers who typically have a low paid manager working for them, meaning the manager may not be all that competent. The one "check" on these situations (where there may not be a lot of competence) is mandatory transparency when it comes to many records.

As for "flooding" a HOA with records requests: First, an owner had better be reasonable about his/her requests. Second many states have restrictions to minimize flooding.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I agreed with NA1 in that someone could abuse it by throwing all sort of document requests out there. Personally I believe an association should make available any doc an owner wants to see. If docs are held electronically then Email them send. If held on paper, then point the requestor to the files and say have at it. Copy anything. If on paper, I do not believe in staff or MC having to sort through things and the request must be reasonable not one like show me all invoices for the past 4 years.

NA1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 190

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/27/2023 2:32 PM

Posted By NA1 on 12/27/2023 1:33 PM
Of course it would. It makes being a board member more complex because now they have to navigate punitive penalties for silly shit. Doesn’t matter if its the association’s pocket or theirs, they still have to navigate it and defend the hoa. Someone will always claim the board is rogue, whatever is going on. Now they will also be motivated to do so by financial reward.

Flood the hoa with demands and it will miss dates. Ok, bingo, pay me $50/day for each request you missed.

so access to HOA records is "silly shit" according to you? What's next holding elections on time, holding board meetings, taking minutes are also silly shit?

Let me guess you think it's cheaper for an HOA to get sued for ignoring legal records requests? can you show me the math equation that proves that financial argument? HOA Lawyers charge $400 per hour, and the fee is $50/day. Maybe you are using that new common core math?

You're being intentionally obtuse or you simply didn't bother to read all of what I wrote.

Want to harass a board? Or a government? Or a corporation? Flood it with requests for things you already have or for things you're not legally entitled to, then claim the board is "rogue".

Unlike governments and corporations, board members are volunteers. They may or may not have a management company, but if they do and it is competent, it will have a contract that gets it out of situations like this.

As ElleN notes there need to be limits. I think the limit should assume the board is acting in good faith and these penalties you propose are horse shit.. You can correct problems by recall or voting them out at the next election.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Is the fine in addition to actual damages due to a legal action?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DeanJ on 12/27/2023 2:57 PM
Is the fine in addition to actual damages due to a legal action?

Don't you think legally genuine, actual damages are going to be pretty rare when it comes to records requests?

A plaintiff would have to show that he/she suffered some kind of quantifiable, financial damage as a direct result of being denied the records.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NA1 on 12/27/2023 2:52 PM

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/27/2023 2:32 PM

Posted By NA1 on 12/27/2023 1:33 PM
Of course it would. It makes being a board member more complex because now they have to navigate punitive penalties for silly shit. Doesn’t matter if its the association’s pocket or theirs, they still have to navigate it and defend the hoa. Someone will always claim the board is rogue, whatever is going on. Now they will also be motivated to do so by financial reward.

Flood the hoa with demands and it will miss dates. Ok, bingo, pay me $50/day for each request you missed.

so access to HOA records is "silly shit" according to you? What's next holding elections on time, holding board meetings, taking minutes are also silly shit?

Let me guess you think it's cheaper for an HOA to get sued for ignoring legal records requests? can you show me the math equation that proves that financial argument? HOA Lawyers charge $400 per hour, and the fee is $50/day. Maybe you are using that new common core math?

You're being intentionally obtuse or you simply didn't bother to read all of what I wrote.

Want to harass a board? Or a government? Or a corporation? Flood it with requests for things you already have or for things you're not legally entitled to, then claim the board is "rogue".

Unlike governments and corporations, board members are volunteers. They may or may not have a management company, but if they do and it is competent, it will have a contract that gets it out of situations like this.

As ElleN notes there need to be limits. I think the limit should assume the board is acting in good faith and these penalties you propose are horse shit.. You can correct problems by recall or voting them out at the next election.

Oh please cry me a river. I'm not proposing these penalties, these are penalties that are occuring in other states. I am asking because the NC congress has a committe on HOA that is taking public input. guess what NC has no laws that establish fines for rouge HOA's.

What's horse shit is your idea that HOA board volunteers are boyscouts and there is a conspiracy of homeowners out to get them with false records requests. That's some rich horse shit for real.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/27/2023 2:38 PM
Texas TPC 209 has similar punitive measures //and// allows owners to bring disputes over record inspections to Texas small claims court. The latter makes life a lot easier for owners who want the transparency to which they are lawfully entitled, and boards should take note. In addition, TPC 209 orders HOAs to pay owners any attorney fees they incurred. I call the latter pretty serious "incentivizing."
.

thanks for this reference.

vis ta vie

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

Absent a law suit, who is going to enforce the fine? It seems to me the plaintiff is entitled to the fine + filing charges + attorney fees which is easily identifiable damages.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DeanJ on 12/27/2023 3:44 PM
Absent a law suit, who is going to enforce the fine? It seems to me the plaintiff is entitled to the fine + filing charges + attorney fees which is easily identifiable damages.

In the legal system, attorney fees are not considered "damages." If a statute or contractual term does not expressly say that the prevailing side in xyz type of lawsuit shall be awarded his/her attorney fees (that is, the other side pays the winner), then something called "The American Rule" controls, which means that each side pays his/her own attorney fees.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

California as well permit owners to file lawsuits over bring records disputes in small claims court. Also the fine may be more to your liking (it is to mine). See
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Enforcement-Rights and

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5235

Of Florida's, Texas's and California's statutes supporting owners' rights to inspect records, I think California's is easily the best. Note that in California, if the HOA prevails in small claims court (over a records dispute), the bar is very high for the HOA to win an award of its attorney fees.

Note that Civ Code 5235 has been around since early 2014. Perhaps the latter is some evidence that it is working.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

For your legislative committee acquaintances:

I believe Florida, Texas and California lead the way when it comes to the number of HOAs. To me this means their legislatures have had a lot of input about HOAs and put a lot of thought over many years into how to regulate HOAs. The fact that all three states' statutes provide for financial punishment when HOAs improperly deny records says a lot, IMO. I cannot say for sure but I checked a number of states whose residents appear to come here, and so far I am just not seeing any other states that mete out financial punishment of HOAs that misbehave when it comes to records requests. Double check me.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

The nonprofit law in a lot of states already has a lot of what you want.

In your state, a member of a nonprofit (owner in an hoa) can apply to superior court in their county.

§ 55A-16-04.
(a) … the superior court ... may, upon application of the member, summarily order inspection and copying of the records demanded at the corporation's expense.

Notice that it says "summarily." As I understand it, that can mean without a trial (and without an opinion statement from the court), and is based on the application to the court. This is much simpler than a full-blown trial.

If certain conditions are met:
§ 55A-16-04. (b) ...The court shall dispose of an application under this subsection on an expedited basis.

And:

(c) If the court orders inspection and copying of the records demanded, it shall also order the corporation to pay the member's cost (including reasonable attorneys' fees) incurred to obtain the order unless the corporation proves that it refused inspection in good faith because it had a reasonable basis for doubt about the right of the member to inspect the records demanded.

Many other states have similar (sometimes identical) laws.

As a suggestion for your legislature committee, ask that all of these nonprofit provisions be put into a law for HOAs, but the owner should not have to state a proper purpose and the HOA should not charge anything for making the records available.

JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 271

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/27/2023 4:15 PM
The nonprofit law in a lot of states already has a lot of what you want.

In your state, a member of a nonprofit (owner in an hoa) can apply to superior court in their county.

§ 55A-16-04.
(a) … the superior court ... may, upon application of the member, summarily order inspection and copying of the records demanded at the corporation's expense.

Notice that it says "summarily." As I understand it, that can mean without a trial (and without an opinion statement from the court), and is based on the application to the court. This is much simpler than a full-blown trial.

If certain conditions are met:
§ 55A-16-04. (b) ...The court shall dispose of an application under this subsection on an expedited basis.

And:

(c) If the court orders inspection and copying of the records demanded, it shall also order the corporation to pay the member's cost (including reasonable attorneys' fees) incurred to obtain the order unless the corporation proves that it refused inspection in good faith because it had a reasonable basis for doubt about the right of the member to inspect the records demanded.

Many other states have similar (sometimes identical) laws.

As a suggestion for your legislature committee, ask that all of these nonprofit provisions be put into a law for HOAs, but the owner should not have to state a proper purpose and the HOA should not charge anything for making the records available.

suing a corporation in superior court without hiriing an expensive lawyer is not my idea of easily holding rogue hoa boards accountable. especially if rogue hoa board charges homeowner with attourney fees.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Then it becomes a finger-pointing game. Who gets the request for records? The PM, the individual board member?
The records request can come to the PMC office and the office assistant sits on it. Who's to blame??

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Good info from Jeff.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Soo... Since a HOA is ONLY funded by it's owners/members, then who pays the fines? Do you think that it is going to come out of the Board members PERSONAL pockets? Not likely. It's coming from the HOA budget since it is the HOA your wanting to fine... Oh yeah the very HOA your a member of and pay dues... Those dues that go toward paying those "punitive" charges you want to enforce on ALL your neighbors... Logic... Try some.

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/28/2023 4:25 AM
Soo... Since a HOA is ONLY funded by it's owners/members, then who pays the fines? Do you think that it is going to come out of the Board members PERSONAL pockets? Not likely. It's coming from the HOA budget since it is the HOA your wanting to fine... Oh yeah the very HOA your a member of and pay dues... Those dues that go toward paying those "punitive" charges you want to enforce on ALL your neighbors... Logic... Try some.

As I already mentioned above, it's obviously cheaper to pay a $50/day fine then it is to pay a $400/hr lawyer fee when dealing with these sorts of issues.
Any neighbor with common sense would glady pay their fair share of the fine in order for the HOA to legally meet it's responsibilites.
The fact that you think Rogue Boards should have no penalties for their misbehavior is troubling, but not surprising. You have also been in favor of never suing the HOA board for the same ridiculous logic. Apparently obeying the law is just too inconvenient if it involves you paying money.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You still do not get it. You are not fining an individual. You are fining every single member including yourself. Who pays the fine? The HOA. Who funds the HOA? The members. So then LOGIC says that every member will now contribute their dues payment to the paying of the fine.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. I support if you want to sue your HOA but do not whine if your dues go up or your HOA has high legal fees for doing so. It is you that is causing it to suffer damages after all.

The HOA is not your lawyer. It is the HOA's lawyer. They represent the HOA as a whole and are the ones you will be paying with your dues to defend your case ...

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

no I do get it. I understand if the hoa has a $500 fine and 125 members that each member is paying $4 for the rogue board's illegal action.

I also get that rogue boards can easily get lawyers involed at $400/hr and a 10 hours of time could easily mean each hoa member would be paying $32 each.

apparently you can't figgure out which of the above is worse.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/28/2023 9:01 AM
You still do not get it. You are not fining an individual. You are fining every single member including yourself. Who pays the fine? The HOA. Who funds the HOA? The members. So then LOGIC says that every member will now contribute their dues payment to the paying of the fine.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. I support if you want to sue your HOA but do not whine if your dues go up or your HOA has high legal fees for doing so. It is you that is causing it to suffer damages after all.

The HOA is not your lawyer. It is the HOA's lawyer. They represent the HOA as a whole and are the ones you will be paying with your dues to defend your case ...

What's interesting is various state legislatures have already passed these laws. Are we hearing an outcry from CAI complaining that these punitive fees are damaging hoa's? Nope. Maybe the laws are actually working as intended then? Maybe your sky is falling comments about boards racking up fines is hyperbole?

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/28/2023 9:01 AM
You still do not get it. You are not fining an individual. You are fining every single member including yourself. Who pays the fine? The HOA. Who funds the HOA? The members. So then LOGIC says that every member will now contribute their dues payment to the paying of the fine.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. I support if you want to sue your HOA but do not whine if your dues go up or your HOA has high legal fees for doing so. It is you that is causing it to suffer damages after all.

The HOA is not your lawyer. It is the HOA's lawyer. They represent the HOA as a whole and are the ones you will be paying with your dues to defend your case ...

What's interesting is various state legislatures have already passed these laws. Are we hearing an outcry from CAI complaining that these punitive fees are damaging hoa's? Nope. Maybe the laws are actually working as intended then? Maybe your sky is falling comments about boards racking up fines is hyperbole?

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/28/2023 9:01 AM
You still do not get it. You are not fining an individual. You are fining every single member including yourself. Who pays the fine? The HOA. Who funds the HOA? The members. So then LOGIC says that every member will now contribute their dues payment to the paying of the fine.

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. I support if you want to sue your HOA but do not whine if your dues go up or your HOA has high legal fees for doing so. It is you that is causing it to suffer damages after all.

The HOA is not your lawyer. It is the HOA's lawyer. They represent the HOA as a whole and are the ones you will be paying with your dues to defend your case ...

What's interesting is various state legislatures have already passed these laws. Are we hearing an outcry from CAI complaining that these punitive fees are damaging hoa's? Nope. Maybe the laws are actually working as intended then? Maybe your sky is falling comments about boards racking up fines is hyperbole?

vis ta vie

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

I'd love to see if anyone had actually been successful in getting their board fined under this law in Florida. According to the research I have done, if the association is a COA under FS 718, there is a state agency you can make a complaint to. But for an HOA, under FS 720, there is not. Your only recourse is to hire an attorney and file for mediation or file a lawsuit.

It seems like there is a statute to fine the HOA, but there's no real teeth in it. Other than huge fines or creating a "court" for making complaints against boards like this, I don't see this statute as being very effective.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Fines have no teeth in most HOA cases. They can not even be the basis of a foreclosure. What happens if the HOA does not pay a fine? They will be using the money to pay a fine to go back into their own funds. Just it may now be subject to taxation. A fine inside a HOA does nothing. A fine from an outside source is a different monster.

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LoriM15 on 12/28/2023 9:51 AM
I'd love to see if anyone had actually been successful in getting their board fined under this law in Florida. According to the research I have done, if the association is a COA under FS 718, there is a state agency you can make a complaint to. But for an HOA, under FS 720, there is not. Your only recourse is to hire an attorney and file for mediation or file a lawsuit.

It seems like there is a statute to fine the HOA, but there's no real teeth in it. Other than huge fines or creating a "court" for making complaints against boards like this, I don't see this statute as being very effective.

I texas 209 and Florida laws just started in 2023. in 1-3 years we will have better data to see if they are effective. I assume the Texas law that allows small claims court will be more effective.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Small claims court does not typically do punitive damages such as fines or pain and suffering. That is a different court which rarely awards such damages.

A court is to make one "whole" only. Which is defined as putting you back in same position if nothing happened except for legal expenses. You are not guaranteed legal expenses.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 12/27/2023 1:18 PM
Florida has a law that fines an HOA $50 per day up to $500 for failing to timely give out records requests.
Unfortunately if the HOA ignores the record request the owner still has to take the HOA to court to get financial relief.
And lets face it $500 is a joke. No rogue board will be motivated by that paltry amount.

Are there any HOA laws in any state that punish the HOA in similar ways? Do any laws offer more compensation say $100 per day(that's a common amount boards can dish out, so seems fair)?
Would suspending the ability to collect more in fines during the disputed paperwork request help?
How about waiving all late dues, fines, and lawyer fees for failure to provide documents in a timely fashion?
After all many records reqeust are the result of the board fining the crap out of an owner.

In other words is there anyway to make a law/rule that will actually motivate a board to carry out their basic functions?

Yes I know crooks will always be crooks, but there are also people that will actually do the right thing if given a little bit of pressure.

Here is California records enforcement. Civil penalty applies to each occurrence.

CIVIL CODE SECTION 5235. ENFORCEMENT OF RECORDS INSPECTION RIGHTS.
(a) A member may bring an action to enforce that member’s right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney’s fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request.

(b) A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court.

(c) A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

What I would like to see is directors having to pay these fines out of their own pockets. When boards repeatedly violate the law and even use association funds to fight having to obey the law, board members should have to pay it themselves.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackS20 on 12/27/2023 5:30 PM

Posted By JeffT2 on 12/27/2023 4:15 PM
The nonprofit law in a lot of states already has a lot of what you want.

In your state, a member of a nonprofit (owner in an hoa) can apply to superior court in their county.

§ 55A-16-04.
(a) … the superior court ... may, upon application of the member, summarily order inspection and copying of the records demanded at the corporation's expense.

Notice that it says "summarily." As I understand it, that can mean without a trial (and without an opinion statement from the court), and is based on the application to the court. This is much simpler than a full-blown trial.

If certain conditions are met:
§ 55A-16-04. (b) ...The court shall dispose of an application under this subsection on an expedited basis.

And:

(c) If the court orders inspection and copying of the records demanded, it shall also order the corporation to pay the member's cost (including reasonable attorneys' fees) incurred to obtain the order unless the corporation proves that it refused inspection in good faith because it had a reasonable basis for doubt about the right of the member to inspect the records demanded.

Many other states have similar (sometimes identical) laws.

As a suggestion for your legislature committee, ask that all of these nonprofit provisions be put into a law for HOAs, but the owner should not have to state a proper purpose and the HOA should not charge anything for making the records available.

suing a corporation in superior court without hiriing an expensive lawyer is not my idea of easily holding rogue hoa boards accountable. especially if rogue hoa board charges homeowner with attourney fees.

This is somewhere in between small claims court and suing the corporation in superior court.

It could be as simple as the owner or a lawyer writing a letter to the board explaining the law and the request for records. The law has the threat of legal fees, which must be paid by the corporation if the court orders inspection of the records. The threat of legal fees helps to pressure the corp.

If necessary, the lawyer would file paperwork to apply to the court for a summary judgment on an expedited basis. As long as the paperwork is good (and the association does not have a good excuse), then there is no trial, just an order of inspection. In theory, it is much simpler and less expensive than a full-blown lawsuit.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Just finding a HOA-specialized attorney without a conflict of interest is a huge chore all by itself.

That the NC Planned Community Act's recourse offers an inexpensive, quick solution is highly speculative at best. It will not be inexpensive. It will not be low labor. It will not be quick. In my opinion it is nothing like what the OP seems to want.

A statutory provision that allows record inspection disputes to be tried in small claims court, with the HOA prohibited from winning its attorney fees unless the judge deems the complaint legally frivolous, seems to me to approach the best solution.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Board members paying out of their own pockets is impossible and illogical at best. Makes no sense. But hey we can never accuse Wendy or Terri with those facts.

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Board members paying out of their own pockets is impossible and illogical at best. Makes no sense. But hey we can never accuse Wendy or Terri with those facts.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/28/2023 3:57 PM
Board members paying out of their own pockets is impossible and illogical at best. Makes no sense. But hey we can never accuse Wendy or Terri with those facts.

Not advantageous to take advice from someone who sympathizes with the lawless.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/28/2023 3:57 PM
Board members paying out of their own pockets is impossible and illogical at best. Makes no sense. But hey we can never accuse Wendy or Terri with those facts.

So what's your solution again? Cause I all I hear is your echo chamber shooting down other people's ideas.

People that break the law having to face personal consequences sounds totally logical to me. Especially when it's obvious the records are being withheld on purpose.

vis ta vie

RobertW36 (California)
Posts: 15

Posted:

California inspection of records

Civil Code § 5235. Enforcement of Inspection Rights.

(a) A member may bring an action to enforce that member’s right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney’s fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request.

(b) A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court.

(c) A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.