Budget approval

Started by LouH1 • 17 replies • 291 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

LouH1 (Michigan)
Posts: 214

Posted:

Our BoD got together to discuss our budget with approving it in mind. The vote was 6 yes, 1 no. I was the 1 no. My understanding is this was a valid Board Meeting with votes taken. Then after many weeks, a "Summary of the Budget Reveal Meeting" was sent out to the community with no mention of the vote. I thought there would still be a minutes of the meeting put out. But NOT THE CASE here. I approved the summary and I think that the Board thinks all is oK. I was, in effect fooled into thinking the actual minutes would still be put out.

My understanding as a long time Board Member, that all "minutes of meeting" are to be presented to the community and would be called "minutes" as they are the formal meeting minutes including votes, am I right. So now the votes are not recorded in our records to given to the community. I expressed in the meeting (as Instructed by Robert's Rules of Order that I wished to have my name included with my vote. After reading that "per Law" the vote of each director should ALWAYS BE RECORDED IN THE MINUTES and how they voted. This has never been done in our Association.

What can I do about this? Anything?

Thanks

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

This is a condominium association.

LouH1,

-- State statutes do not require the use of RR, so they will not help here.

-- Do the Bylaws require the use of Robert's Rules?

-- From much experience with Robert's Rules, it is unlikely that they require the recording of the final vote count. Robert's Rules at most might recommend it, but the board is not obliged to comply with a mere recommendation. If you have something from RR that says otherwise, do quote it.

-- Secretaries pull this junk all the time.

-- On the other hand, the Mi Nonprofit Corp statute requires that minutes be kept. This is where you have some legal clout. If you want suggestions on this point, ask. First key word search the following for the word "minutes": https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-Act-162-of-1982.pdf

-- On the third hand, one must pick one's battles. How far are you willing to push this? Do you want to threaten suit over this? Do you understand the repercussions of doing so?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

This thread says LouH1's board did adopt a certain parliamentary procedure:
https://www.hoatalk.com/Search/ForumSearch/tabid/87/forumid/1/postid/292434/view/topic/Default.aspx

If it is Robert's Rules, then it looks to me that RR does indeed not require the recording of votes the way the OP wishes. See for example:

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/31782-recording-of-votes-in-meeting-minutes/

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/21438-roll-call-votes-recorded-in-minutes/

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/32863-recording-a-vote-in-the-minutes/

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lou

You went down to defeat 6 to 1. Why try and fight it? You lost big time.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

It seems to me that a Board that meets and votes is required to have minutes of the meeting. If those minutes have to be sent to the owners and if the minutes have to record you by name in descent might be a stretch.

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Lou wrote: " BoD got together to discuss our budget with approving it in mind." Was this a legitimate "meeting" the Board? as defined by your bylaws and perhaps Mich. code? In other words, was notice of the Board meeting posted in advance? If you're in an open-meeting state, were owners invited?

If a "real" meeting of the Board, then minutes must be taken. Who writes the minutes in your HOA? Did you see them writing the minutes? But those are just draft minutes and must be approved by the Board --usually at its next meeting--with it votes. Is that what usually happens?

Once approved, they must be made avail to owners. We've never seen on this forum any requirement that the board send them to owners. In addition, there is no requirement that the person who voted no's name will be in the minutes. The Board must vote to include no votes names and that would be a meeting policy. Nor is there any requirement that reasons for a no vote must be in the minutes. The person whop wants their reason state need to ask the Boar if it permits you to state your reasoning in the minutes.

What is a "summary" and why must directors approve it??

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I am asking all what their opinion of listing some information such as: The vote was 5 to 1 with Jane Smith dissenting. Personally I have no issues with doing that.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our Board also names the dissenting voter(s) and abstentions (tho' rare). I've always believed that dissenters should be named especially iff they thing the majority decision is illegal, harmful, unsafe, etc. That is also why I'd ask the Board if my reason(s) for dissenting may please be in the minutes.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

I support what JohnC46 and KerryL1 both wrote.

I also think respecting the wishes of a dissenter, who wants his/her reasons in the minutes, is important.

I figure any board majority or secretary not agreeable to this is not violating any law or parliamentary procedure. But I would consider them snotty, petty and childish.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/24/2023 1:41 PM
I support what JohnC46 and KerryL1 both wrote.

I also think respecting the wishes of a dissenter, who wants his/her reasons in the minutes, is important.

I figure any board majority or secretary not agreeable to this is not violating any law or parliamentary procedure. But I would consider them snotty, petty and childish.

Elle

I disagree with posting the dissenter's reasons in the minutes. This could lead to he said, she said, and go on for page after page.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2023 3:17 PM
I disagree with posting the dissenter's reasons in the minutes. This could lead to he said, she said, and go on for page after page.

You are right. I reverse my position.

To drive home JohnC46's point, this was my thought process:
Suppose the dissenter was off the deep end. Suppose in fact his/her vote represented something going against the covenants in a completely, legally inappropriate way. Per my earlier post, I would have supported this going into the minutes. But now I would also support someone in the majority at least pointing out how legally screwed up the dissenter's reasoning was. JohnC46 is right: We end up with a mess, aggravated by difficult, often arcane language (as is often used in the covenants).

What if it is the majority who is all screwed up and has gone rogue? Of course the dissenter wants to set the majority straight and wants it in the minutes. The majority wants to rebut. Round and round we go once again.

I think you have convinced me that the only courtesy a dissenter gets is to be noted as being "in dissent." If the board refuses to do even the latter (as is its right, I believe), and the dissenter wants to, say, try to avoid being named as a defendant in a lawsuit, then the dissenter better do his/her own documentation of his/her vote.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

The Boards in my HOAs, even the terrible two, permitted dissenters to provide their reason if the dissenter requested it's a way to try to avoid liability if. Usually 11 meetings a years, over many years, I think the average # of times in a Board that takes action on several decisions every month, this happens perhaps twice a year. The dissenter's reason is in the minutes. So some imaginary scenario of a back & forth doesn't occur in real life, at least not that I've seen. "discussion" and debate are finished. The Board has not given permission for debate to resume.

Remember that during discussion before the vote, the eventual dissenter will argue against the motion. This is WHEN debate occurs. So the audience of owners hear it.. But discussions should NOT be in the minutes. If a dissenter thinks the approved motion is illegal, unsafe, bad for the finances, the dissenter might have a little protection from liability later if the decision hits the fan.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/24/2023 3:17 PM

Elle

I disagree with posting the dissenter's reasons in the minutes. This could lead to he said, she said, and go on for page after page.

I agree. The board vote is all that is germane to the business minutes. If the one person wants their name listed as the dissenting vote, that's reasonable.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Unless there's a very weak presider, that posting a dissenter's reason would lead to a "he said, she said" does not happen because the vote is the final word on the topic. There IS no further debate that goes on for "pages." In fact, as JohnC has pointed out many times, the discussions and debates should not be in the minutes at all.

Only the Board can give permission for the dissenter's reason to the in the minutes. It works in our HOA. On Boards where the majority is already hostile to the dissenter, they probably would vote to not permit the reason for the no vote in the minutes.

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

✓ Ask follow-up questions
✓ Share your experience
✓ Get expert advice
✓ Access 350,000 discussions

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here