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California - Recall Election Questions

Started by RileyS • 49 replies • 955 views

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RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Greetings

I live in a HOA comprised of roughly 500 Single Family Homes, located in the Los Angeles suburbs.

This summer we had our HOA election and some of us are not happy with how our new Board has turned out. (I don't want to go into a lot of the details if you don't mind. It is what it is, and we have people willing to step up for the new board)

In any case, several homeowners have created a 'concerned' group on Facebook. We are kicking around the idea of a recall election, but we are a little short on knowledge and experience...

My understanding after doing some internet research is this:

1. We need to submit a recall petition, to recall the entire board, because it is the easiest way to do it than trying to recall a couple of them.
2. The petition needs a minimum of 5% of the homeowner's signatures.
3. The Board has 20 days to validate the signatures, the petition, etc and then they have to set a date for a 'special recall meeting'
4. The Board gets to set the date of this meeting as long as it is a minimum of 35 days and no longer than 150 days out.
5. During this meeting, the homeowners would first vote to recall the board and if it passes - we would then vote in a new board?

So here are my questions:
1. At the special meeting, does the recall vote/new board member vote occur simultaneously - or can the board schedule another date for the new election (if the recall passes) and push it out further?
2. Since we are almost into January, if the Board pushed the election date out as far as they could, we are probably looking at an election somewhere around mid-June.
3. Hopefully, we will be electing a whole new board, five directors, for a two-year term each.
4. Normally, our annual member's meeting/election is in July. If we just elected new directors to 2-year terms in June, am I right in thinking that we would not have to hold an annual election in July 2024 or how does that work?

Thanks in advance for any help, this sure is confusing (Is DavisStirlin.com a reliable source?)
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 12/20/2023 10:36 PM
The vote to recall the board has to be by secret ballot, and the counting of the votes occurs once the quorum has been met. If you started the process today, your meeting could not occur before June 17, 2024.
The above is way inaccurate. From Corp Code 7211, the meeting has to be set on a date in the window of 30 days to 150 days after the request is received. In addition from Corp Code 7511:

If the notice is not given within 20 days after receipt of the request, the persons entitled to call the meeting may give the notice or the superior court of the proper county shall summarily order the giving of the notice, after notice to the corporation giving it an opportunity to be heard. The court may issue such orders as may be appropriate, including, without limitation, orders designating the time and place of the meeting, the record date for determination of members entitled to vote, and the form of notice.

See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-7511

As needed, RileyS should consider having her group call the special meeting, as described above.

RileyS, it is best to use an attorney to get the Special Meeting called. Why? because if your group fails to dot even one i or cross even one t, the board can ignore your request and/or deny that the recall is valid.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/20/2023 9:31 PM

4. The Board gets to set the date of this meeting as long as it is a minimum of 35 days and no longer than 150 days out.
This assumes the board sends out notice within 20 days of receiving a proper request from owners. If the board is hostile, it will look for every possible deficiency in the request to deny you all the meeting.

See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-7511

The davis-stirling.com site is owned and operated by a certain Ca Law Firm. From over 15 years of experience reading HOA/COA statutes and case law, the d-s.com site is excellent, with an amazing search engine. It is best to always read the actual statutes that the latter site links within its discussions.

Where the d-s site offers an interpretation, rarely do I and other HOATalk members disagree.

Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/20/2023 9:31 PM

4. Normally, our annual member's meeting/election is in July. If we just elected new directors to 2-year terms in June, am I right in thinking that we would not have to hold an annual election in July 2024 or how does that work?
I think Corp Code 5220 (b) answers this:

5220 (b) Unless otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office.

At a recall meeting, directors are first removed. Seats become vacant. Directors are elected to fill the vacancies. Hence 5220 (b) above applies. The directors elected at the recall meeting serve until the term of their predecessor expires.

No one at this forum is an attorney.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 12/21/2023 7:50 AM
BTW, Civil Code supercedes Corporation Code when dealing with HOAs.
This is true only when there is a conflict between the Civil Code and the Corp Code.

This forum represents crowd-sourced problem solving. If you have citations to rebut the sections of California Code I cited, then post them.

RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Thanks for the replies

Last election was in July 2023.

So it looks like I am on the right track - they have 20 days to review the petition and then another 30 to 150 days to actually set the election meeting date. So if the petition was turned in on Jan 1st for example, 170 days from then is June 19th

This is still a month quicker than waiting for a new election. But I am trying to make sure that we would not have a recall election and then a month later another annual election. Does anyone know about that? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The page below on the Davis Sterling website under 'recall entire board':

"Under these scenarios, the recall of existing directors and election of replacement directors can take place on one ballot."

Note the 'can take place' - who determines if the recall and new election takes place on the same ballot? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/R/Recall-Date-Notice
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 8:33 AM

So it looks like I am on the right track - they have 20 days to review the petition and then another 30 to 150 days to actually set the election meeting date. So if the petition was turned in on Jan 1st for example, 170 days from then is June 19th
If the board does nothing and 20 days go by, your group has the statutory right to set up the meeting yourselves.
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 8:33 AM

This is still a month quicker than waiting for a new election. But I am trying to make sure that we would not have a recall election and then a month later another annual election. Does anyone know about that?
This was answered above. But to clarify, answer this:

Exactly how long are the terms for the directors on the board right now? One year? Two years?

Were they all elected at the 2023 July annual election?

Were any of the current directors appointed by the board (on account of a resignation)?

Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 8:33 AM
The page below on the Davis Sterling website under 'recall entire board':

"Under these scenarios, the recall of existing directors and election of replacement directors can take place on one ballot."

Note the 'can take place' - who determines if the recall and new election takes place on the same ballot? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/R/Recall-Date-Notice
First, understand that, two completely different votes can takes place on one ballot. Or there can be two different ballots.

This is a discretionary choice. Under the law, boards have to be reasonable when exercising discretion.

Your group needs to hire an attorney IMO.

RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Ellen

Our Board of Directors terms are for 2 years

None of them were appointed from what I can tell and three of them were elected in July

We will have to discuss hiring an attorney but in this day and age, money is getting tight... we would prefer to do this ourselves if possible.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 12/21/2023 9:19 AM
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 8:08 AM
Posted By AidylP1 on 12/21/2023 7:50 AM
BTW, Civil Code supercedes Corporation Code when dealing with HOAs.
This is true only when there is a conflict between the Civil Code and the Corp Code.

This forum represents crowd-sourced problem solving. If you have citations to rebut the sections of California Code I cited, then post them.



California Civil Code imposes a new timeline for conducting elections which ultimately changes the number of days in which a meeting can be held. I gave the date of June 17, 2024, which is accurate according to www.davis-stirling.com
Since you will not cite the Civil Code, all I have at the moment is this: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/H/HOA-Election-Timeline

It does not say what you claim.

Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 12/21/2023 9:19 AM

The other example is Action Without a Meeting (except in an emergency) is allowed in the Corporation Code, yet prohibited in the Civil Code.

We are not talking about "actions without a meeting." But if you insist on hijacking, then as I noted, in the case of a genuine conflict between the Corp Code and the Civ Code, the Civ Code controls.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 9:15 AM
Ellen

Our Board of Directors terms are for 2 years

None of them were appointed from what I can tell and three of them were elected in July
So only two (a minority) are up for election (if they choose to run again) in July. Got it. Then if your group is so dismayed with the entire board, then recalling all five (with three having another 1.5 years or so to go before they face another regular July election, might make sense.

If your group successfully recalls all five directors and elects five new directors, then per Corp Code 5220 (b) --

-- two would serve until the July 2023 election.

-- three would serve until the July 2024 election (assuming no additional recall attempt was made).

The ballot would have to specify which new director would serve in which term. Or maybe just state: The candidates with the top three vote totals shall serve the longer term. The candidates with the next two highest vote totals shall serve the shorter term.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 9:50 AM

The ballot would have to specify which new director would serve in which term. Or maybe just state: The candidates with the top three vote totals shall serve the longer term. The candidates with the next two highest vote totals shall serve the shorter term.
Add: Ties will be resolved by a coin toss or an appropriate, minimum series of coin tosses.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
If Riley's board objects to Riley's request for a recall meeting because of statutory violations, I advise not responding to the board that, "AidylP1 on HOATalk.com told me there are no statutory violations."

AidylP1, it says a lot that you cannot cite the statute section that you claim exists. It says even more that you are firmly resisting doing so.
RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
I contacted someone who works as an Inspector of Elections

When it comes to the time frame, the 20 days is included, so the whole recall election has to be completed within 150 days from the date the petition is turned in. So if the petition is turned in on Jan 1st, the recall election would need to be completed by May 30th.

They also said that in their opinion, there would not be a need to hold an annual election in July, since a new board was just elected to 2-year terms in May (for example). BUT, they did indicate that some boards do hold the annual election anyway (out of spite? - who knows)

Lastly, I also asked if we could pay them to review the petition before we turned it in, to avoid any clerical errors. They said they would rather not, but the petition is actually pretty easy.

I noticed there is a good example/sample on the Davis-Stirling website:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/S/Sample-Petition-to-Recall-Board
RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Some more info (in case someone finds this thread later on)

Law blog indicates the vote to recall and the vote for new Directors should occur at the same time:

"First, Corporations Code Section 7220(b) makes it clear that the recall of a Director means said Director is no longer on the Board. Unless the Bylaws provide otherwise, there is no legal authority for a recalled Director to remain on a Board with any power or authority – even in a limited capacity – once the members have voted to recall or remove said Director. Accordingly, a recalled Director may not serve on the Board in the interim between their removal and the election of their successor because they have already been removed and no longer have any power or authority".

"https://hoalaw.tinnellylaw.com/resolving-conflicts-of-law-related-to-recall-election-timelines-in-the-wake-of-sb323/
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 12:25 PM
the whole recall election has to be completed within 150 days from the date the petition is turned in. So if the petition is turned in on Jan 1st, the recall election would need to be completed by May 30th.
+/- a day or so, I agree.

Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 12:25 PM
They also said that in their opinion, there would not be a need to hold an annual election in July, since a new board was just elected to 2-year terms in May (for example).
Wrong, per the statute section I cited above.

Keep in mind that your board's terms are staggered. Do you understand why? This is one reason the statute says what it does.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 7:35 AM
Posted By RileyS on 12/20/2023 9:31 PM
4. Normally, our annual member's meeting/election is in July. If we just elected new directors to 2-year terms in June, am I right in thinking that we would not have to hold an annual election in July 2024 or how does that work?
I think Corp Code 5220 (b) answers this:

5220 (b) Unless otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office.

At a recall meeting, directors are first removed. Seats become vacant. Directors are elected to fill the vacancies. Hence 5220 (b) above applies. The directors elected at the recall meeting serve until the term of their predecessor expires.
More reinforcement of this point, from https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/D/Director-Removal-Recall:

New Directors Term of Office. If the recall is successful and new directors are elected, the term in office for new directors will be the same as the directors they replace. (Corp. Code § 7220(b).) If a board has staggered terms and is recalled, the election of replacement directors requires a determination of which directors get the longest terms. That is determined by the vote count. Those directors receiving the highest number of votes are elected to the open seats with the longest terms.

EXAMPLE: Assuming a five-member board with staggered terms is successfully recalled where three directors had one-year remaining terms and two had one-month remaining terms, the three candidates receiving the highest number of votes fill the seats with one-year terms. The next two elected candidates fill the one-month terms. That means the two newly elected directors with one-month terms must stand for reelection in thirty days.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
That's what our election did. Because there were no elections for many years, staggered terms evaporated, so the top 3 vote getters got 2 years and the bottom 2 got 1 year, even though our Declaration only says 2-yr terms.
RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 1:19 PM
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 7:35 AM
Posted By RileyS on 12/20/2023 9:31 PM
4. Normally, our annual member's meeting/election is in July. If we just elected new directors to 2-year terms in June, am I right in thinking that we would not have to hold an annual election in July 2024 or how does that work?
I think Corp Code 5220 (b) answers this:

5220 (b) Unless otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office.

At a recall meeting, directors are first removed. Seats become vacant. Directors are elected to fill the vacancies. Hence 5220 (b) above applies. The directors elected at the recall meeting serve until the term of their predecessor expires.
More reinforcement of this point, from https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/D/Director-Removal-Recall:

New Directors Term of Office. If the recall is successful and new directors are elected, the term in office for new directors will be the same as the directors they replace. (Corp. Code § 7220(b).) If a board has staggered terms and is recalled, the election of replacement directors requires a determination of which directors get the longest terms. That is determined by the vote count. Those directors receiving the highest number of votes are elected to the open seats with the longest terms.

EXAMPLE: Assuming a five-member board with staggered terms is successfully recalled where three directors had one-year remaining terms and two had one-month remaining terms, the three candidates receiving the highest number of votes fill the seats with one-year terms. The next two elected candidates fill the one-month terms. That means the two newly elected directors with one-month terms must stand for reelection in thirty days.




Well, that changes things a bit - thanks for finding and posting that
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Late to the party where you, Riley, & Elle seem to have so many important matters handled. It's great to see an owner like you who united with a group of like-minded owners to dump an unsatisfactory Board.

I think you all are right to do the recall since only filling 2 spots in June will keep you in the minority. BUT, are there ANY current board members who're not up for reelection with whom your group is comfortable?

It's very possible there's a minority member or 2 on your Board who're unable to be effective in a way that's good for your community. This happened in my HOA where 2 on a board of 7 never had any voice until 3 of us were elected,* which created a 5-person board majority. (the 3 defeated incumbents were so arrogant they didn't't bother campaigning) If you attend open board meetings, you should be able to spot such directors. There is nothing to prevent you from approaching them privately to get their impressions and to learn if they might be a good fit with your Group.

So, perhaps you wouldn't need to jump through the recall hoops after all.

You haven't mentioned your HOA's governing document called "election rules" which Civil Code requires and which it revised in 2020, which means you owners all received a new set that year. it very well may be 8-12 pages long. Per Civil Code it must be posted on your website or available easily for your review. Your Group must make certain you comply with it, and there is a section on recall. Ours gives the Board a lot of discretion but DOES state the Board must comply with statutes.

Just as important, your Group wants to know owners' rights re: campaigning for the annual election in June. Your Election Rules set out how far in advance various notices must be sent to owners. At Davis-stirling.com, go to Election Timeline to see this. You'll want your Group's 2 preferred candidates to apply. You'll see in your Election Rules that during the campaign period, your Group may use the common area clubhouse or social rooms without paying. You'll learn that the current Board may NOT use HOA resources to campaign for candidates. Do campaign hard and positively. Flyers at homes, hold a "Coffee with the Candidates," urge the Board to hold a Candidates Night, and if it won't, hold your own. Get all Owners' email addys, which by statute you are permitted to have, and send crissp, sharp, eye-catching materials. This really matters if you have a lot of absentee owners, who are the least likely to vote.

Double check your Bylaws to make sure you Group completely understands everything about the annual meeting and about elections.

Like Elle,I reviewed these too: www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/R/Recall-Date-Notice & www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/D/Director-Removal-Recall. The inspector of election was, indeed wrong. Do not use that firm for your recall & election as the "inspector" did not even review what your Bylaws say about meetings of the members. A bunch of these "firms" sprang up with the advent of new election statutes in 2020. I may be wrong, but I don't think any credentials are required.

If a recall election for 5, yes, the top vote getters serve the longer term & the lower two serve one month. This is extremely common when staggered terms are rigid by th bylaws.
*Years earlier, we had to get rid of an equally terrible board. In an HOA of 200+, we created a very cleverly-named "Small Group," who worked hard to learn our Bylaws & statutes. While the election put "us" in as a minority, one existing board member, worked very well with us. We gained the majority a year later.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
IMO, when the OP says "Some of us are not happy with how our new Board has turned out", out of 500 homes I can't see how your recall can get off the ground.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 4:55 PM

You haven't mentioned your HOA's governing document called "election rules" which Civil Code requires and which it revised in 2020, which means you owners all received a new set that year.
They should have received a set. This does not mean that they // did // receive a set.
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 4:55 PM
Civil Code it must be posted on your website or available easily for your review.
I do not believe the Civil Code has any such requirement.

What the Civil Code does require is that owners be allowed to inspect the HOA's official records, which should include the operating rules, which in turn should include the statutorily required election rules.
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 4:55 PM
Your Group must make certain you comply with it, and there is a section on recall.
Ca statutes do not require a section on "recalls."
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 4:55 PM
Ours gives the Board a lot of discretion but DOES state the Board must comply with statutes.
And if the rules had no such statement, the board and owners would still be required to comply with statutes.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If Riley's HOA has no Election Rules, ca. 2020, the HOA is in violation of Civ 5100. I'll be optimistic that the the HOA complied in 2020, and all Owners received the proposed Election Rules for a 28-day comment period.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Election-Rules-Required: The D-S.com opinion: “Election rules should contain the following:…recall election procedures...."

There is NO need to go through the records request process. Owners must have easy access to the election rules https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5105 (4) ".. cause to be delivered, at least 30 days before an election, to each member BOTH of the following documents:
(A) The ballot or ballots. (B) A copy of the election operating rules. Delivery [is] by (i) Posting the election operating rules to an internet website and including the corresponding internet website address on the ballot together with the phrase, in at least 12-point font: 'The rules governing this election may be found here:'"

To see your HOA's Election Rules before this 30-day period, if your HOA is too lame to not have all rules posted on a web site or on some sort of Handbook, I suppose you'd have to go through the records request process. My HOA's election rules, however, mirror Civ 5100 on almost every point. I believe a friendly community manager would send them to you quickly, Riley.

Civil Code § 5115, for instance: Voting Procedure.
(b) For elections of directors and for recall elections, an association shall provide general notice of all of the following at least 30 days before the ballots are distributed:
(1) The date and time by which, and the physical address where, ballots are to be returned by mail or handed to the inspector or inspectors of elections.
(2) The date, time, and location of the meeting at which ballots will be counted.
(3) The list of all candidates' names that will appear on the ballot.

My MAIN point, Riley, is your Group must become comfortable with the election rules and all of Civ. 5100.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 7:14 PM

There is NO need to go through the records request process.
Oh yes there is. See below.
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 7:14 PM
Owners must have easy access to the election rules https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5105 (4) ".. cause to be delivered, at least 30 days before an election, to each member BOTH of the following documents:
(A) The ballot or ballots. (B) A copy of the election operating rules. Delivery [is] by (i) Posting the election operating rules to an internet website and including the corresponding internet website address on the ballot together with the phrase, in at least 12-point font: 'The rules governing this election may be found here:'"
You grossly mis-quoted. What Civ Code 5105 (g) (4) actually says is this:

Civ Code 5105 (g) (4) Notwithstanding any other law, the rules adopted pursuant to this section shall do all of the following:
...
Require the inspector or inspectors of elections to deliver, or cause to be delivered, at least 30 days before an election, to each member both of the following documents:

(A) The ballot or ballots.

(B) A copy of the election operating rules. Delivery of the election operating rules may be accomplished by either of the following methods:

(i) Posting the election operating rules to an internet website and including the corresponding internet website address on the ballot together with the phrase, in at least 12-point font: “The rules governing this election may be found here:”

(ii) Individual delivery.

Contrary to what Kerry claimed, the Civil Code does not require that the election rules "be posted on your website or available easily for your review."

RileyS, IMO this thread presents a mini-case study of what owners are often up against: Volunteer directors typically so overwhelmed that they do not understand their legal obligations. Even if these volunteer directors have supposedly served many years, many simply still do not know enough to go to the statutes and see what they are supposed to be doing. Many just make things up as they go along.

On the other hand --

Often I find it is hard to blame these volunteer directors for not doing their jobs well. Fact: Few are willing to volunteer to serve on HOA boards. (Are you?) Yet the law requires these boards. At least those who do volunteer generally keep the place from burning down. This is not for nothing. If you run for the board (and I think you should consider doing so), then bear in mind that the demands on directors (time-wise, knowledge-wise, harassment-wise, and more) can be mighty.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Enough with the sympathy for "volunteer" board members as if they are saints of some kind. If they don't want to work, don't run for the board. Don't run for the board then whine about how many hours you have to spend on association business. Lots of non-board members spend more time benefiting the association than board members, and lots of non-board members have to spend plenty of hours mopping up the messes of sloppy boards.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
ElleN said "Contrary to what Kerry claimed, the Civil Code does not require that the election rules "be posted on your website or available easily for your review."

It absolutely does and you quoted it yourself.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 12/22/2023 10:11 AM
ElleN said "Contrary to what Kerry claimed, the Civil Code does not require that the election rules "be posted on your website or available easily for your review."

It absolutely does and you quoted it yourself.
Wrong. Read the statute section I quoted carefully.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 12/22/2023 10:09 AM
Enough with the sympathy for "volunteer" board members as if they are saints of some kind.
Many are saints. I could rattle off half a dozen regulars' names here who are busting their arses, for no pay, reading bylaws, covenants and statutes and doing all they can to interpret them correctly; preparing enormous, detailed budgets; coordinating safety at the HOA swimming pool; figuring out how to buy CDs to maximize interest on reserve funds; more.

You really have no idea, IMO.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Jeez, can you shift your laser focus from micro picky stuff, and concentrate on the main point, elle? Or do you disagree about the importance of election rules because you neglected them early on???

Riley & her group MUST become familiar with their election rules & civ. 5100.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/22/2023 10:45 AM
Posted By TerriS6 on 12/22/2023 10:11 AM
ElleN said "Contrary to what Kerry claimed, the Civil Code does not require that the election rules "be posted on your website or available easily for your review."

It absolutely does and you quoted it yourself.
Wrong. Read the statute section I quoted carefully.

The IOE has to either post the association's election rules on their website during an election or they have to send a copy with each ballot.
RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Thanks to everyone for chiming in

It looks like at this point, that since the directors elected to fill seats vacated in a recall election assume the remainder of the terms, it would not make sense to hold a recall election so close to our annual election.

(we could do it out of spite, but that is not in the best interest of the HOA and would be a waste of time and money)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 12/21/2023 9:15 AM
Ellen

Our Board of Directors terms are for 2 years

None of them were appointed from what I can tell and three of them were elected in July

We will have to discuss hiring an attorney but in this day and age, money is getting tight... we would prefer to do this ourselves if possible.

Riley

If those being recalled decide to legally fight it things could get expensive and dragged out. My suggestion is spend your time and effort getting like minded people to the BOD.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
It would only make sense because your Group will fill all 5 Board positions. But it's so much exacting work and, as Aidyl notes, it may be very hard to get a quorum.

With only 2 of the 5 up for election, you may still be in the minority for year. BUT, as I suggested above, you may already know or learn that one director who's not up for election has not been thrilled with the current Board. Meet for coffee. See if there's common ground between your Group & that director so that after the June election, you 3 will be in the majority.

Even if a minority, you still will be able to make change and "keep 'em honest," which is what our board minority was able to do for one year. We made sure there were no more secret meetings or hidden decisions, & did some other good things too.

So pay attention to your election rules & bylaws and campaign when your Group feels the timing's right. In such a large HOA, an approach we took might work for you too. I'd just retired from the Board after several years, but worked with directors to get out the vote to restate our CC&Rs, which we'd worked on for a long time.

A total of 6 of us worked our assigned "precincts" to urge owners to vote yes. And, as you'll see, in Civ 5100/your Election Rules, the Board or managers may not use HOA funds to send mailers, etc. except to say: "Please vote. Period." So each of us 6 spent our own funds for mailers (lotsa absentee owners & part-time owner-occupants). Some of us texted owners, some of us emailed owners, some of us put flyers under condo doors, etc. We each did what felt best to us. But we only have 200+ owners. We were successful!

So with 500 owners, you'd need a sizable Group to divvy up the campaign work

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
In one HOA I was a member of, it took a group of us two election cycles to replace the BOD. We held informal neighbor meetings. Put up information tables at the pool. Went door to door talking about change and collecting proxies. First election cycle we got 2 of the 5 BOD spots. Was enough to be sure the Pres, who was the main problem, did not get re-elected. Next cycle we got 2 more spots.

It was hard work with a dedicated group of about 6 people to begin with.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/22/2023 11:06 AM
Jeez, can you shift your laser focus from micro picky stuff,
Lieutenant Queeg, you brought up what you call "micro picky stuff." If you do not want to be corrected, do not post grossly incorrect information.

Every one of my posts to this thread has concerned election statutes and election rules.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I was hoping you'd post your background & experience on this topic, JohnC. It's good for Riley's Group to know and there also may be others reading this thread who are considering ways to get rid of a lost board.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/23/2023 10:27 AM
I was hoping you'd post your background & experience on this topic, JohnC. It's good for Riley's Group to know and there also may be others reading this thread who are considering ways to get rid of a lost board.

Recalls, especially if recalling more then one person, are rarely successful especially if those being recalled decide to legally fight the recall. I always advise they work toward getting like thinkers elected to the BOD.
RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 1:19 PM

New Directors Term of Office. If the recall is successful and new directors are elected, the term in office for new directors will be the same as the directors they replace. (Corp. Code § 7220(b).) If a board has staggered terms and is recalled, the election of replacement directors requires a determination of which directors get the longest terms. That is determined by the vote count. Those directors receiving the highest number of votes are elected to the open seats with the longest terms.


We are back looking at the recall option. The above quote from the Davis-Stirling website appears to be a little 'misleading' The quote appears to be from the D-S website and they indicate:

"If the recall is successful and new directors are elected, the term in office for new directors will be the same as the directors they replace."

But if you look at the actual Corp. Code § 7220(b) on the official California Legislative Info website there is more to that section, they left out "unless the director has been removed from office"

"(b) Except as otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?secti7220.&lawCode=CORP

note the 'removed from office' part. Wouldn't a recall election be considered removed from office?

So am I reading this right and if so, do the terms for newly elected directors to replace recalled directors be new terms or what? (anyone know)
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RileyS on 04/24/2024 9:15 PM
Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 1:19 PM

New Directors Term of Office. If the recall is successful and new directors are elected, the term in office for new directors will be the same as the directors they replace. (Corp. Code § 7220(b).) If a board has staggered terms and is recalled, the election of replacement directors requires a determination of which directors get the longest terms. That is determined by the vote count. Those directors receiving the highest number of votes are elected to the open seats with the longest terms.


We are back looking at the recall option. The above quote from the Davis-Stirling website appears to be a little 'misleading' The quote appears to be from the D-S website and they indicate:

"If the recall is successful and new directors are elected, the term in office for new directors will be the same as the directors they replace."

But if you look at the actual Corp. Code § 7220(b) on the official California Legislative Info website there is more to that section, they left out "unless the director has been removed from office"

"(b) Except as otherwise provided in the articles or bylaws, each director, including a director elected to fill a vacancy, shall hold office until the expiration of the term for which elected and until a successor has been elected and qualified, unless the director has been removed from office."

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?secti7220.&lawCode=CORP

note the 'removed from office' part. Wouldn't a recall election be considered removed from office?

So am I reading this right and if so, do the terms for newly elected directors to replace recalled directors be new terms or what? (anyone know)
I believe the D-S site got it right. I think what 7220(b) is saying that, once a director has been recalled, her or his term ends, regardless of what the bylaws say about terms.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Well, as a practical matter, your HOA's Board wouldn't be able to establish some alternative term length w/o amending your Bylaws, which most likely requires a vote of the Owners.

Next, "unless the director has been removed from office" could mean that the Board voted to remove the director for missing too many meetings, becoming delinquent or other reasons as specified in the Bylaws and/or Election Rules. There might be some subtle legal definitions/distinctions re: "removed" vs. "recalled" that're beyond me!

I see recalls as creating a "vacancy," which can be filled for the remainder of the term.

So... you could go through all of this recall biz, and still need to campaign to fill term-expiration vacancies in July.

Good to see you're continuing to educate yourself, Riley. Hope your group that IS going to take over the Board still has stuck together and is still motivated to make change.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
I believe directors removed by the membership can only be replaced by the membership.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Oh, Terri, I hope I didn't indicate otherwise.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
Actually, a Board can appoint Board members who were recalled by the homeowners. If a recall of all directors was done and approved but only 4 of the 5 positions were filled, then the Board can fill that spot as a vacancy.
RileyS (California)
Posts: 55
Posted:
ElleN When I had a chance to look at it again and read the entire section, I think your right - thanks
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
RileyS, de nada. As far as I am concerned, statutes can be tricky. They often require close study and multiple readings, including reading discussion of what the statute is saying. Even with a lot of study, I still mess up often.

The 2023 California appeals court decision clarifying when boards can communicate by email, without giving notice of a meeting et cetera, was a great example of the challenge of interpreting statutes, IMO. (The California Supremes declined to hear an appeal of the decision, meaning the decision is the law in California.)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Typically a recall names the person being recalled and who they will be replaced by. Recalling S. Smith to be replaced by J. Jones.

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