Budget Approval

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

We are a 40 Unit PUD in California. The budget committee has drawn up two budgets; one is +14% of the previous budget and the other one is +25% of the previous budget and provides for everything on the wish list of a limited number of vocal members. The board of directors wants to approve the 25% increase at our next meeting which means it will need to be accepted by ballot by the home owners.

The budget should be included in the Annual Statement which must be mailed by January 29th, 2024 the budget will not be approved by the board until December 29th, 2023.

The ballots cannot be mailed out to the membership until January 2nd or 3rd which means they cannot be opened until January 31st (too late to be included in the Annual Statement).

My questions are: Do we include the board approved budget in the annual mailing despite the fact that the ballots have not been returned as accepted or rejected by the membership?

If we went out the board approved +25% budget for approval and it is rejected how do we deal with the fact that it was already sent out in the annual mailing?

Do we start again with a new budget or accept the alternative budget of +14% when the ballots are returned as rejected - is that legal?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You're on the Board, right, LmT?

Are you sure your governing documents require Owners' votes to approve the budget? OH. Is the reason for Owners' votes because the increase is more than 20%? If an owner vote is required, please do NOT state that the increase is for certain for 2024 in a letter that must go to them before votes are due!

Since the Board hasn't met yet, how do you know it wants to approve the 25% increase? That sounds like a Board decision, and board decisions like this must only be made in open meetings in CA.

Since the Board hasn't met yet, why not move the Board meeting earlier to comply with the 30-day window to vote.

The easiest thing would be for the Board to approve a 19% increase as a "compromise," which eliminates the ballot deadline and voting problems. Over many years on my HOA's Board, I don't recall ANY year that the board did not discuss and deliberate & debate the proposed budget for quite a while in open meetings. There usually were 3 options. We also always sought owners' comments throughout that Special Meeting of the Board on the [year] Budget.

I can't help but wonder how a "vocal minority" gets its wishes met? Are they buddies with the F.Comm.?

If somehow a budget IS approved & is stated in the annual budget letter, the Board could change it later in the year, but it's a difficult process and must be done exactly right. If you want the details, go to our old friends at Davis-Stirling.com. As you know it applies to all HOAs in CA. Been there with "revised budget." Ugh.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You're on the Board, right, LmT?

Are you sure your governing documents require Owners' votes to approve the budget? OH. Is the reason for Owners' votes because the increase is more than 20%? If an owner vote is required, please do NOT state that the increase is for certain for 2024 in a letter that must go to them before votes are due!

Since the Board hasn't met yet, how do you know it wants to approve the 25% increase? That sounds like a Board decision, and board decisions like this must only be made in open meetings in CA.

Since the Board hasn't met yet, why not move the Board meeting earlier to comply with the 30-day window to vote.

The easiest thing would be for the Board to approve a 19% increase as a "compromise," which eliminates the ballot deadline and voting problems. Over many years on my HOA's Board, I don't recall ANY year that the board did not discuss and deliberate & debate the proposed budget for quite a while in open meetings. There usually were 3 options. We also always sought owners' comments throughout that Special Meeting of the Board on the [year] Budget.

I can't help but wonder how a "vocal minority" gets its wishes met? Are they buddies with the F.Comm.?

If somehow a budget IS approved & is stated in the annual budget letter, the Board could change it later in the year, but it's a difficult process and must be done exactly right. If you want the details, go to our old friends at Davis-Stirling.com. As you know it applies to all HOAs in CA. Been there with "revised budget." Ugh.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 6:51 PM
You're on the Board, right, LmT?

Are you sure your governing documents require Owners' votes to approve the budget? OH. Is the reason for Owners' votes because the increase is more than 20%? If an owner vote is required, please do NOT state that the increase is for certain for 2024 in a letter that must go to them before votes are due!

Since the Board hasn't met yet, how do you know it wants to approve the 25% increase? That sounds like a Board decision, and board decisions like this must only be made in open meetings in CA.

Since the Board hasn't met yet, why not move the Board meeting earlier to comply with the 30-day window to vote.

The easiest thing would be for the Board to approve a 19% increase as a "compromise," which eliminates the ballot deadline and voting problems. Over many years on my HOA's Board, I don't recall ANY year that the board did not discuss and deliberate & debate the proposed budget for quite a while in open meetings. There usually were 3 options. We also always sought owners' comments throughout that Special Meeting of the Board on the [year] Budget.

I can't help but wonder how a "vocal minority" gets its wishes met? Are they buddies with the F.Comm.?

If somehow a budget IS approved & is stated in the annual budget letter, the Board could change it later in the year, but it's a difficult process and must be done exactly right. If you want the details, go to our old friends at Davis-Stirling.com. As you know it applies to all HOAs in CA. Been there with "revised budget." Ugh.

Our governing documents do not require owner approval unless over 20% just like DS. We are a board of five members and we know how we wish to vote on the budget through discussion.

The board WANTS to approve a +20% increase in order to shut up the vocal minority with a vote of the majority! If the majority votes for the large assessment then so be it; however, the vocal majority doesn't get its wishes met but the board does get to ignore their demand because the majority has voted.

What I really want to know is how to handle the logistics. Can we send out a budget in the annual mailing (adopted by the board) before it is approved by the membership and If it is rejected, do we adopt a budget that is less than 20% or start again with another budget?

In other words, we are running out of time and we need to get our budget approved.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 6:51 PM
You're on the Board, right, LmT?

Are you sure your governing documents require Owners' votes to approve the budget? OH. Is the reason for Owners' votes because the increase is more than 20%? If an owner vote is required, please do NOT state that the increase is for certain for 2024 in a letter that must go to them before votes are due!

Since the Board hasn't met yet, how do you know it wants to approve the 25% increase? That sounds like a Board decision, and board decisions like this must only be made in open meetings in CA.

Since the Board hasn't met yet, why not move the Board meeting earlier to comply with the 30-day window to vote.

The easiest thing would be for the Board to approve a 19% increase as a "compromise," which eliminates the ballot deadline and voting problems. Over many years on my HOA's Board, I don't recall ANY year that the board did not discuss and deliberate & debate the proposed budget for quite a while in open meetings. There usually were 3 options. We also always sought owners' comments throughout that Special Meeting of the Board on the [year] Budget.

I can't help but wonder how a "vocal minority" gets its wishes met? Are they buddies with the F.Comm.?

If somehow a budget IS approved & is stated in the annual budget letter, the Board could change it later in the year, but it's a difficult process and must be done exactly right. If you want the details, go to our old friends at Davis-Stirling.com. As you know it applies to all HOAs in CA. Been there with "revised budget." Ugh.

Yes, I am on the board and I am on the Budget Committee.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Sorry my. response was unclear. Imo, you should NOT send out notice of a 20%+ increase in the required annual budget letter if you don't have owner approval with their votes. While it's a state requirement to send the budget letter out 30 days before the beginning of your fiscal year, you could take a chance and send it a day or two late.

Also, you are permitted to send it by email to those who've opted in, which I'd hope is most owners.

BUT, given the "vocal minority (VM)," about whom you've written previously, I'd worry they'd take you to court if they don't get their way..

I hafta say, LmT, that your Board is going through a lot of churn, acrobatics and gyrations to appease this VM. I don't get why your Board lets them keep harassing your hardworking volunteers. Is it because they (if the same VM as previously) includes a couple of attorneys????

As I wrote above, If you do decide to send our the budget letter and it states the 25% increase for '24 and then the voters turn it down, you will have to go through a "budget revision" process that D-S.com explains. It's no fun at all and confuses owners.

Apparently there's no possible way your Board can meet earlier than 12/29?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

LmT, when does your HOA's fiscal year begin?

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/20/2023 10:15 AM
LmT, when does your HOA's fiscal year begin?

Our fiscal year is 1st March to end of February.

I have managed to bring our board meeting forward by a couple of days and the election company has agreed to get the ballot out before December 29th.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 9:54 AM
Sorry my. response was unclear. Imo, you should NOT send out notice of a 20%+ increase in the required annual budget letter if you don't have owner approval with their votes. While it's a state requirement to send the budget letter out 30 days before the beginning of your fiscal year, you could take a chance and send it a day or two late.

Also, you are permitted to send it by email to those who've opted in, which I'd hope is most owners.

BUT, given the "vocal minority (VM)," about whom you've written previously, I'd worry they'd take you to court if they don't get their way..

I hafta say, LmT, that your Board is going through a lot of churn, acrobatics and gyrations to appease this VM. I don't get why your Board lets them keep harassing your hardworking volunteers. Is it because they (if the same VM as previously) includes a couple of attorneys????

As I wrote above, If you do decide to send our the budget letter and it states the 25% increase for '24 and then the voters turn it down, you will have to go through a "budget revision" process that D-S.com explains. It's no fun at all and confuses owners.

Apparently there's no possible way your Board can meet earlier than 12/29?

We have agreed to bring our board meeting forward by a couple of days (to Wednesday 27th) and the election company has agreed to mail out the ballot before December 29th.

Our board will elect two new members at our February Annual Meeting. There are three candidates and one of them is part of the VM. We are canvassing our friends and neighbors to elect the two candidates who are more suitable (one having served previously and is very well respected and experienced).

The constant criticism (and threat of legal action) from the VM is wearing down our board members. We are retired people who just want the best for our community. The VM are also retired but it would appear they miss their careers as they seem to enjoy the argument.

It is hoped a legitimate secret ballot by the community will silence the VM (at least regarding this matter).

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

LMT

I am somewhat confused as to what is your issue/s. Timing or amount? Why not got for a 20% dues increase, not requiring owner approval, then go for an additional dues increase next year (20% or less) to bring your finances to where you believe they should be?

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/20/2023 2:57 PM
LMT

I am somewhat confused as to what is your issue/s. Timing or amount? Why not got for a 20% dues increase, not requiring owner approval, then go for an additional dues increase next year (20% or less) to bring your finances to where you believe they should be?

Anything less than the 25% increase will not be sufficient to provide the level of service some of our members are requesting. A vote on the budget that IS sufficient to provide those services will decide what we can and what we cannot provide.

The board is no longer willing to submit to additional criticism and harassment from those members who feel they should have this level of service. If the majority of members reject the budget then we can adopt a more reasonable budget and quiet the outspoken minority. If the majority of members accept the higher budget which will provide increased services and amenities then we will follow that budget.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/20/2023 2:57 PM
LMT

I am somewhat confused as to what is your issue/s. Timing or amount? Why not got for a 20% dues increase, not requiring owner approval, then go for an additional dues increase next year (20% or less) to bring your finances to where you believe they should be?

Anything less than the 25% increase will not be sufficient to provide the level of service some of our members are requesting. A vote on the budget that IS sufficient to provide those services will decide what we can and what we cannot provide.

The board is no longer willing to submit to additional criticism and harassment from those members who feel they should have this level of service. If the majority of members reject the budget then we can adopt a more reasonable budget and quiet the outspoken minority. If the majority of members accept the higher budget which will provide increased services and amenities then we will follow that budget.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm glad you are able to move the board meeting, LmT. I urge you & your Board to have a vigorous discussion and debate about the '24 budget at the meeting.

Let the VM and all owners contribute. Do NOT let them try to cite some law or gov.document incorrectly.* If they cite anything, require them to give the section, or article of Civ. Code # so you directors can check it. The VM can show themselves as genuine jerks and will get fewer votes later.

*If it's the same VM as in the past, it includes two attorneys, right? And one or both live in your HOA part-time?

Where will this 12/27 meeting take place? When you write "we," does this mean that you both are on the Board?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

From looking at the statutes, it seems to me that this is about proper, statutory notice to owners of what the FY 2024 budget will be.

Is there a reason the HOA Board cannot send out both (1) the budget with the 25% increase and (2) the budget with the increase of 20% or less? A statement from the board would be attached, explaining that:

"Pursuant to Civ Code 5605 (b), the first budget (with a proposed assessment increase of 25%) requires owners' approval to go into effect. If the owners do not approve of this budget (with the increase of 25%), then the budget for FY 2024 will be (2) (resulting in a smaller assessment increase, ___%). The Board is providing both budgets because of statutory notice requirements."

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 3:20 PM
I'm glad you are able to move the board meeting, LmT. I urge you & your Board to have a vigorous discussion and debate about the '24 budget at the meeting.

Let the VM and all owners contribute. Do NOT let them try to cite some law or gov.document incorrectly.* If they cite anything, require them to give the section, or article of Civ. Code # so you directors can check it. The VM can show themselves as genuine jerks and will get fewer votes later.

*If it's the same VM as in the past, it includes two attorneys, right? And one or both live in your HOA part-time?

Where will this 12/27 meeting take place? When you write "we," does this mean that you both are on the Board?

It is the same cadre of VM as before and yes, two are part time residents and retired lawyers who seem to have appointed themselves representatives for the rest of the VM.

When I saw 'we' I am referring to me and my fellow board members.

Our desire is to settle those arguments regarding what we are obliged to provide and what we can afford to provide what most members desire. Then, we can get on with our work to run our HOA for the benefit of all rather than having to deal with frequent unpleasantness. If we can't, we will not be able to get people to volunteer.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/20/2023 3:35 PM
From looking at the statutes, it seems to me that this is about proper, statutory notice to owners of what the FY 2024 budget will be.

Is there a reason the HOA Board cannot send out both (1) the budget with the 25% increase and (2) the budget with the increase of 20% or less? A statement from the board would be attached, explaining that:

"Pursuant to Civ Code 5605 (b), the first budget (with a proposed assessment increase of 25%) requires owners' approval to go into effect. If the owners do not approve of this budget (with the increase of 25%), then the budget for FY 2024 will be (2) (resulting in a smaller assessment increase, ___%). The Board is providing both budgets because of statutory notice requirements."

Yes, Elle, this is what we propose to do. We plan to provide the two budget options with a cover letter explaining what is provided for in one and that is not provided in the other. I'm not sure whether we are allowed to adopt budget (2) as a contingency should budget (1) be rejected.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/20/2023 3:15 PM
Anything less than the 25% increase will not be sufficient to provide the level of service some of our members are requesting. A vote on the budget that IS sufficient to provide those services will decide what we can and what we cannot provide.

The board is no longer willing to submit to additional criticism and harassment from those members who feel they should have this level of service. If the majority of members reject the budget then we can adopt a more reasonable budget and quiet the outspoken minority. If the majority of members accept the higher budget which will provide increased services and amenities then we will follow that budget.

Assuming the incumbents want to keep their positions on the board, and an unhappy VM could in theory vote to replace the incumbents, I call the above quite savvy.

Demanding are the chores of (1) preparing a budget; (2) reviewing the detailed statute sections on this; and (3) delivering the bad news to one faction or another of owners that they are not going to get what they want. Good job. You all deserve a pay raise.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/20/2023 3:47 PM
We plan to provide the two budget options with a cover letter explaining what is provided for in one and that is not provided in the other. I'm not sure whether we are allowed to adopt budget (2) as a contingency should budget (1) be rejected.

Is your last sentence above pretty much the "bottom line" question?

I feel like maybe I misunderstood something.

At any rate, since the statute sections seem to me to be all about giving proper "notice" of what the FY 2024 budget will be, then I think including both budgets, explaining the contingency, satisfies the statute requirements.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/19/2023 5:53 PM
The budget committee has drawn up two budgets; one is +14% of the previous budget and the other one is +25% of the previous budget and provides for everything on the wish list of a limited number of vocal members. The board of directors wants to approve the 25% increase at our next meeting which means it will need to be accepted by ballot by the home owners.

If the plan is to send owners both budgets, then I can (finally?) see how the "board approval" part is causing a mess. For instance:

Director Samuel:
All right, I have a motion. It is compound. It is complicated. General Henry Roberts (yes, the Roberts' Rules guy) would have me drawn and quartered for what I am about to say. But statutes put the board in a bad position. Hence: I motion to approve the budget in the board packet that has the 25% increase, BUT if owners do NOT approve of this increase, as required by statute, then the board approves the second budget, with the lower, ___% increase.

President Edith:
Everyone got that? Madam Secretary, can you read this back to everyone?

Director-Secretary Tyler:
Yeah, I think I have it on tape now... okay [blah blah blah]

President Edith:
So a yes vote means the board approves the 25% increase budget, unless the owners do not approve of the latter, whence the board's vote is to approve of the budget with the lower __% increase. All in favor?

Or one could break this up into two separate motions and pray that a board majority votes in a logically consistent way.

As KL mentioned,the alternative is the messiness of adding a special meeting; not being assured of complying with the D-S statute; the fiscal year starting with no budget in place; and so on.

It's messy either way.

Maybe the whole problem is trying to be political here (and satisfy the VM) instead of just doing what the board believes is better (the second budget).

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You've run your idea to send out two board-approved budgets in the budget letter by your HOA attorney? My concern is that if it might be one OR the other, Owners will NOT have correct legal 30-day notice about their dues increases. So you would not be able to raise dues until 3 /1, I think.

I'm now thinking that your HOA attorney should attend this 1/27 meeting to field questions and to shut down the VM's hotshot mouthpieces when they miscite any document or statutes (which you've shown they've done in the past.)

Il'll assume your budget letter is like ours per Civ. 5300. So with two Board “approved” budgets, the required letter must show two complete budgets with all line items estimated. While many will be the same in each version, one budget will have the goodies in it that the VM wants. This may also mean the contribution to reserves will be different in each budget.

In any case, you also must show your reserves study in the budget & policy letter and the % funded for each of the two budgets IF the contribution to reserves will vary depending on which budget is chosen. This requires changes to some pages within the study, e.g., perhaps the addition of new components.

Your also need to list all individual owners' dues, so you'd need two of those tables too. Every single unit and its new dues.

Honestly LmT, this seems like a total nightmare. Again consult with your HOA attorney.

Back to tweaking my original suggestion and JohnC's idea. Just approve a straight 20% increase. And show owners with a Board vote that the Board will enact an additional 5% (the max permitted without an owner vote) Special Assessment on July 1. You’ll definitely need your attorney’s OK on this idea too AND how to implement it.

In this scenario, your Board can get started on any special projects' RFPs, bidding and be ready to start them on July 1. The special assessment might be less burdensome and confusing and much cleaner than sending these two budgets AND the required owner secret ballots, etc. Good lord!

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 4:40 PM
Back to tweaking my original suggestion and JohnC's idea. Just approve a straight 20% increase. And show owners with a Board vote that the Board will enact an additional 5% (the max permitted without an owner vote) Special Assessment on July 1.

If the Board actually preferred the 25% increase, then I think the above is an approach to get close to the 25% without conducting a vote of owners. At a minimum, it buys the board time. During this time, the board could do an informal survey of owners and see if they want xyz, costing owners a special assessment = 5% of the current, 2024 "budgeted gross expenses" for only the last six months of the year. Meaning that in total for the year the assessment increase will be 23% ( = 1.2 x 0.05 / 2 + 0.2). Someone double check my math.

Meanwhile, back to The Drama:

Quote:

Posted By LmT
The board WANTS to approve a +20% increase in order to shut up the vocal minority with a vote of the majority! If the majority votes for the large assessment then so be it; however, the vocal majority doesn't get its wishes met but the board does get to ignore their demand because the majority has voted.

Is voting in a certain way in order to shut people up acting in the HOA's best interests?

LmT, you are the boots on the ground. If this is truly in the HOA's best interests, then I will take your word for it. If this were I, it would take a lot more than owners, say, yelling at the board for me to vote as these folks wish. I mean, if they are so adamant about wanting xyz, why are they not running for the board themselves to make xyz happen?

I suspect Peyton Place has nothing on this HOA.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 4:40 PM
You've run your idea to send out two board-approved budgets in the budget letter by your HOA attorney? My concern is that if it might be one OR the other, Owners will NOT have correct legal 30-day notice about their dues increases. So you would not be able to raise dues until 3 /1, I think.

I'm now thinking that your HOA attorney should attend this 1/27 meeting to field questions and to shut down the VM's hotshot mouthpieces when they miscite any document or statutes (which you've shown they've done in the past.)

Il'll assume your budget letter is like ours per Civ. 5300. So with two Board “approved” budgets, the required letter must show two complete budgets with all line items estimated. While many will be the same in each version, one budget will have the goodies in it that the VM wants. This may also mean the contribution to reserves will be different in each budget.

In any case, you also must show your reserves study in the budget & policy letter and the % funded for each of the two budgets IF the contribution to reserves will vary depending on which budget is chosen. This requires changes to some pages within the study, e.g., perhaps the addition of new components.

Your also need to list all individual owners' dues, so you'd need two of those tables too. Every single unit and its new dues.

Honestly LmT, this seems like a total nightmare. Again consult with your HOA attorney.

Back to tweaking my original suggestion and JohnC's idea. Just approve a straight 20% increase. And show owners with a Board vote that the Board will enact an additional 5% (the max permitted without an owner vote) Special Assessment on July 1. You’ll definitely need your attorney’s OK on this idea too AND how to implement it.

In this scenario, your Board can get started on any special projects' RFPs, bidding and be ready to start them on July 1. The special assessment might be less burdensome and confusing and much cleaner than sending these two budgets AND the required owner secret ballots, etc. Good lord!

I guess it's safe to say we have already committed to approving this budget and sending out the ballot. If we had extra money in our coffers to pay an attorney to do our work for us we would not need to stress over it.

I'm not sure I understand why we would need to list individual owners' dues - they are the same for each unit.

We are only 40 units and do not have the luxury of a fat bank account. It will cost us at the most, $400-$500 to send out a ballot and, hopefully, put this VM down.

Our reserve contributions are as they should be (the same) on both budgets. We have conducted a reserve study in the last 14 days and it should be ready for inclusion in the annual statement.

This budget committee has worked up probably the best budget options we have had in years and will serve as a boiler plate for years to come. We do not want to assess our owners an extra 5% in the middle of the year. We do not feel that is a fair way to treat them - rather, it seems like a sneaky way to push through a more than 20% increase in dues.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, no! I would never suggest anything to "sneak" by owners. That's disgusting! Both a 20% increase and a 5% special assessment should be openly and clearly discussed and deliberated in an open meeting!

But you've made up your minds. Very good that that all dues are the same. ( we have 31 variations) AND that the contribution to reserves from your operating budget will be the same no matter which budget is accepted.

So that just leaves, I think, your cover letter with the two options and the actual operating budget line items.

But am I reading this right? You have no OK from an HOA attorney to send out two options with new dues to START on Feb 1? I'm just not sure that this fulfills the 30 notice requirement for A 2024 budget. IF owners choose the smaller increase, AND you have not provided legal proper notice, I personally am worried for you that the nasty VM, will take the hOA to court.

Does your Board not have an attorney with whom you occasionally consult? Given all the fancy stuff you'll potentially be adding to your amenities, or whatever, surely it's worth perhaps $300 for a legal opinion. I don't think any CA HOA attorney would have to do research on this dual options question & Civ. Code notice requirements.

None of us responding here are attorneys.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 7:34 PM
Oh, no! I would never suggest anything to "sneak" by owners. That's disgusting! Both a 20% increase and a 5% special assessment should be openly and clearly discussed and deliberated in an open meeting!

But you've made up your minds. Very good that that all dues are the same. ( we have 31 variations) AND that the contribution to reserves from your operating budget will be the same no matter which budget is accepted.

So that just leaves, I think, your cover letter with the two options and the actual operating budget line items.

But am I reading this right? You have no OK from an HOA attorney to send out two options with new dues to START on Feb 1? I'm just not sure that this fulfills the 30 notice requirement for A 2024 budget. IF owners choose the smaller increase, AND you have not provided legal proper notice, I personally am worried for you that the nasty VM, will take the hOA to court.

Does your Board not have an attorney with whom you occasionally consult? Given all the fancy stuff you'll potentially be adding to your amenities, or whatever, surely it's worth perhaps $300 for a legal opinion. I don't think any CA HOA attorney would have to do research on this dual options question & Civ. Code notice requirements.

None of us responding here are attorneys.

We have not consulted our HOA attorney in five years. There has never been any need. We do have an attorney and if necessary we would contact him.

The dues increase will start on March 1st which I allows plenty of time for a 30 day ballot. What will be tight is getting the budget included in the annual mailing which will need to go out on February 1st and no later. As I said earlier our fiscal year is March 1st to end of February.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

February has 29 days this year. Annual budget report and annual policy statement, and notice of increase must be distributed minimum 30 days before the assessment is due.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/19/2023 7:48 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 6:51 PM
You're on the Board, right, LmT?

Are you sure your governing documents require Owners' votes to approve the budget? OH. Is the reason for Owners' votes because the increase is more than 20%? If an owner vote is required, please do NOT state that the increase is for certain for 2024 in a letter that must go to them before votes are due!

Since the Board hasn't met yet, how do you know it wants to approve the 25% increase? That sounds like a Board decision, and board decisions like this must only be made in open meetings in CA.

Since the Board hasn't met yet, why not move the Board meeting earlier to comply with the 30-day window to vote.

The easiest thing would be for the Board to approve a 19% increase as a "compromise," which eliminates the ballot deadline and voting problems. Over many years on my HOA's Board, I don't recall ANY year that the board did not discuss and deliberate & debate the proposed budget for quite a while in open meetings. There usually were 3 options. We also always sought owners' comments throughout that Special Meeting of the Board on the [year] Budget.

I can't help but wonder how a "vocal minority" gets its wishes met? Are they buddies with the F.Comm.?

If somehow a budget IS approved & is stated in the annual budget letter, the Board could change it later in the year, but it's a difficult process and must be done exactly right. If you want the details, go to our old friends at Davis-Stirling.com. As you know it applies to all HOAs in CA. Been there with "revised budget." Ugh.

Our governing documents do not require owner approval unless over 20% just like DS. We are a board of five members and we know how we wish to vote on the budget through discussion.

The board WANTS to approve a +20% increase in order to shut up the vocal minority with a vote of the majority! If the majority votes for the large assessment then so be it; however, the vocal majority doesn't get its wishes met but the board does get to ignore their demand because the majority has voted.

What I really want to know is how to handle the logistics. Can we send out a budget in the annual mailing (adopted by the board) before it is approved by the membership and If it is rejected, do we adopt a budget that is less than 20% or start again with another budget?

In other words, we are running out of time and we need to get our budget approved.

Your board is holding secret discussions that include collectively deciding how to vote on an item of business?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/19/2023 5:53 PM
We are a 40 Unit PUD in California. The budget committee has drawn up two budgets; one is +14% of the previous budget and the other one is +25% of the previous budget and provides for everything on the wish list of a limited number of vocal members. The board of directors wants to approve the 25% increase at our next meeting which means it will need to be accepted by ballot by the home owners.

The budget should be included in the Annual Statement which must be mailed by January 29th, 2024 the budget will not be approved by the board until December 29th, 2023.

The ballots cannot be mailed out to the membership until January 2nd or 3rd which means they cannot be opened until January 31st (too late to be included in the Annual Statement).

My questions are: Do we include the board approved budget in the annual mailing despite the fact that the ballots have not been returned as accepted or rejected by the membership?

If we went out the board approved +25% budget for approval and it is rejected how do we deal with the fact that it was already sent out in the annual mailing?

Do we start again with a new budget or accept the alternative budget of +14% when the ballots are returned as rejected - is that legal?

As the Inspector of election determines the election results, you would have to wait until the results are certified before distributing a notice of increase 30 days before assessments are due. Otherwise, it could be a violation of election law in which case you could be fined $500. for each violation and the election would be void.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 5:25 AM

Posted By LmT on 12/19/2023 7:48 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 6:51 PM
You're on the Board, right, LmT?

Are you sure your governing documents require Owners' votes to approve the budget? OH. Is the reason for Owners' votes because the increase is more than 20%? If an owner vote is required, please do NOT state that the increase is for certain for 2024 in a letter that must go to them before votes are due!

Since the Board hasn't met yet, how do you know it wants to approve the 25% increase? That sounds like a Board decision, and board decisions like this must only be made in open meetings in CA.

Since the Board hasn't met yet, why not move the Board meeting earlier to comply with the 30-day window to vote.

The easiest thing would be for the Board to approve a 19% increase as a "compromise," which eliminates the ballot deadline and voting problems. Over many years on my HOA's Board, I don't recall ANY year that the board did not discuss and deliberate & debate the proposed budget for quite a while in open meetings. There usually were 3 options. We also always sought owners' comments throughout that Special Meeting of the Board on the [year] Budget.

I can't help but wonder how a "vocal minority" gets its wishes met? Are they buddies with the F.Comm.?

If somehow a budget IS approved & is stated in the annual budget letter, the Board could change it later in the year, but it's a difficult process and must be done exactly right. If you want the details, go to our old friends at Davis-Stirling.com. As you know it applies to all HOAs in CA. Been there with "revised budget." Ugh.

Our governing documents do not require owner approval unless over 20% just like DS. We are a board of five members and we know how we wish to vote on the budget through discussion.

The board WANTS to approve a +20% increase in order to shut up the vocal minority with a vote of the majority! If the majority votes for the large assessment then so be it; however, the vocal majority doesn't get its wishes met but the board does get to ignore their demand because the majority has voted.

What I really want to know is how to handle the logistics. Can we send out a budget in the annual mailing (adopted by the board) before it is approved by the membership and If it is rejected, do we adopt a budget that is less than 20% or start again with another budget?

In other words, we are running out of time and we need to get our budget approved.

Your board is holding secret discussions that include collectively deciding how to vote on an item of business?

NO! But we have discussed what we do and do not want in our budget. We agree that none of us is looking forward to another year of the type of treatment we have been receiving from certain members. The budget committee has recommended that the board adopt the higher budget. We have had this item on our agenda for discussion the last two meetings. So we are fairly certain which ways at least three of us will vote.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 6:36 AM
As the Inspector of election determines the election results, you would have to wait until the results are certified before distributing a notice of increase 30 days before assessments are due.

The OP's situation is not an "increase or no increase" situation. For the OP's situation, it seems to me that sending out two budgets, which in this case both result in increases, over 30 days in advance of the start date, satisfy Civ Code 5615 and 5605 (having nothing to do with elections) seem to be the appropriate citations.

I can understand that you think suing on this point, in the OP's circumstances, would result in a victory for the plaintiff. I disagree.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 6:57 AM

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 6:36 AM
As the Inspector of election determines the election results, you would have to wait until the results are certified before distributing a notice of increase 30 days before assessments are due.

The OP's situation is not an "increase or no increase" situation. For the OP's situation, it seems to me that sending out two budgets, which in this case both result in increases, over 30 days in advance of the start date, satisfy Civ Code 5615 and 5605 (having nothing to do with elections) seem to be the appropriate citations.

I can understand that you think suing on this point, in the OP's circumstances, would result in a victory for the plaintiff. I disagree.

As usual, your guessing at motives is wrong and irrelevant.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/19/2023 5:53 PM
We are a 40 Unit PUD in California. The budget committee has drawn up two budgets; one is +14% of the previous budget and the other one is +25% of the previous budget and provides for everything on the wish list of a limited number of vocal members. The board of directors wants to approve the 25% increase at our next meeting which means it will need to be accepted by ballot by the home owners.

The budget should be included in the Annual Statement which must be mailed by January 29th, 2024 the budget will not be approved by the board until December 29th, 2023.

The ballots cannot be mailed out to the membership until January 2nd or 3rd which means they cannot be opened until January 31st (too late to be included in the Annual Statement).

My questions are: Do we include the board approved budget in the annual mailing despite the fact that the ballots have not been returned as accepted or rejected by the membership?

If we went out the board approved +25% budget for approval and it is rejected how do we deal with the fact that it was already sent out in the annual mailing?

Do we start again with a new budget or accept the alternative budget of +14% when the ballots are returned as rejected - is that legal?

If only a few want the higher assessment, coupled with inflation, it probably won't pass. Our assessment increase election just failed 2/3 to 1/3. People are struggling. I mention the election law simply as a caution.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 6:57 AM

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 6:36 AM
As the Inspector of election determines the election results, you would have to wait until the results are certified before distributing a notice of increase 30 days before assessments are due.

The OP's situation is not an "increase or no increase" situation. For the OP's situation, it seems to me that sending out two budgets, which in this case both result in increases, over 30 days in advance of the start date, satisfy Civ Code 5615 and 5605 (having nothing to do with elections) seem to be the appropriate citations.

I can understand that you think suing on this point, in the OP's circumstances, would result in a victory for the plaintiff. I disagree.

Elle, I think your recommendation to send out both budgets for member approval is the answer. This clause in DS would appear to be relevant.

Failure to Meet Deadline. Failure to distribute the annual budget report at not less than 30 nor more than 90 days prior to the end of the fiscal year voids any increase in regular assessments approved by the board of directors. Any such increase must then be approved by a majority of a quorum of members. (Civ. Code § 5605(a).)

We would not include the budget in the annual mailing until ballots are returned then distribute the member approved budget to the community. It would be a little more work but we’re only forty members so not a huge inconvenience.

Do you see any problem with this scenario?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

TerriS6, you spoke of fines. That means a lawsuit.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 7:23 AM

Posted By LmT on 12/19/2023 5:53 PM
We are a 40 Unit PUD in California. The budget committee has drawn up two budgets; one is +14% of the previous budget and the other one is +25% of the previous budget and provides for everything on the wish list of a limited number of vocal members. The board of directors wants to approve the 25% increase at our next meeting which means it will need to be accepted by ballot by the home owners.

The budget should be included in the Annual Statement which must be mailed by January 29th, 2024 the budget will not be approved by the board until December 29th, 2023.

The ballots cannot be mailed out to the membership until January 2nd or 3rd which means they cannot be opened until January 31st (too late to be included in the Annual Statement).

My questions are: Do we include the board approved budget in the annual mailing despite the fact that the ballots have not been returned as accepted or rejected by the membership?

If we went out the board approved +25% budget for approval and it is rejected how do we deal with the fact that it was already sent out in the annual mailing?

Do we start again with a new budget or accept the alternative budget of +14% when the ballots are returned as rejected - is that legal?

If only a few want the higher assessment, coupled with inflation, it probably won't pass. Our assessment increase election just failed 2/3 to 1/3. People are struggling. I mention the election law simply as a caution.

It probably won’t pass either but we’ve struggled with this budget for so long we have left ourselves with just days to implement. I’m trying to find a way to handle the dilemma without inviting trouble from the troublemakers. It must be according to the law.

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 7:34 PM
Oh, no! I would never suggest anything to "sneak" by owners. That's disgusting! Both a 20% increase and a 5% special assessment should be openly and clearly discussed and deliberated in an open meeting!

But you've made up your minds. Very good that that all dues are the same. ( we have 31 variations) AND that the contribution to reserves from your operating budget will be the same no matter which budget is accepted.

So that just leaves, I think, your cover letter with the two options and the actual operating budget line items.

But am I reading this right? You have no OK from an HOA attorney to send out two options with new dues to START on Feb 1? I'm just not sure that this fulfills the 30 notice requirement for A 2024 budget. IF owners choose the smaller increase, AND you have not provided legal proper notice, I personally am worried for you that the nasty VM, will take the hOA to court.

Does your Board not have an attorney with whom you occasionally consult? Given all the fancy stuff you'll potentially be adding to your amenities, or whatever, surely it's worth perhaps $300 for a legal opinion. I don't think any CA HOA attorney would have to do research on this dual options question & Civ. Code notice requirements.

None of us responding here are attorneys.

I’m beginning to think that running this by our attorney will be necessary.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/21/2023 7:29 AM
I think your recommendation to send out both budgets for member approval is the answer. This clause in DS would appear to be relevant.

Failure to Meet Deadline. Failure to distribute the annual budget report at not less than 30 nor more than 90 days prior to the end of the fiscal year voids any increase in regular assessments approved by the board of directors. Any such increase must then be approved by a majority of a quorum of members. (Civ. Code § 5605(a).)

We would not include the budget in the annual mailing until ballots are returned then distribute the member approved budget to the community.

Waiting for the vote on the 25% assessment increase to conclude, with results in hand, prior to sending out the "annual budget report" and I guess the "annual policy statement" (Civ Code 5300 and 5310) certainly seems to me to be the safer route.

I am not quite following LmT's proposed timeline here but expect he/she is very much on top of it.

I do hear, and have grokked to the best of my ability, KerryL1's concerns about the option I propose (because of logistics problems at this late date, do not wait until the vote concluded; instead send out both budgets, explaining the contingency yada). My approach is certainly more risky than what LmT proposes (assuming I am understanding correctly what LmT is proposing).

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

If you don't want to lose your 14% increase, you will have to distribute by Jan 31, your 1) notice of increase of 14% effective March 1, 2) complete annual budget report at 14%, and 3) complete annual policy statement.
My question to attorney would be if there can be a statement on the notice and budget saying something like "pending member election dated ----"? In which case a supplemental invoice and amended budget could be sent.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 8:48 AM
[can there] be a statement on the notice and budget saying something like "pending member election dated ----"?

I cannot tell what you are proposing. Do you mean send out only the budget with the 25% assessment increase, noting that this is "pending member election dated ---"? And do people at this forum think this would satisfy the statute if (1) owners approve; and (2) owners do not approve?

My proposal was to send out two budgets, with a statement about how the first budget is pending owner approval et cetera (see above).

Would this satisfy, for one, Civ Code 5300? Civ Code 5300 (a) says:

5300 (a) Notwithstanding a contrary provision in the governing documents, an association shall distribute an annual budget report 30 to 90 days before the end of its fiscal year.

KerryL1, for one, might rightly AFAIC observe that:
'Hey, 5300(a) says an annual budget. Meaning just one budget. The board cannot send out two or more budgets and ya know, make this multiple choice. The statute says the board shall distribute one budget.'

Kerry's argument might very well prevail if push came to shove and this landed in court. My own (weaselly-ass?) rebuttal would be:

ElleN:
'The notice is clear that while two budgets are presented, there will be only one budget, depending on the outcome of the owners' vote.'

Kerry comes back with:
'Yeahbut the outcome of the vote is not known until ____.'

ElleN:
'To be safe, I think the vote ought to be certified by ____.'

At this late date, with LmT closer to recommending the board lawyer up, perhaps considering the response of the VM if such-and-such happens might be more worthwhile. For instance, suppose the vote happens and approval of the 25% increase fails. The board claims it gave proper notice (presenting the two budgets with the contingency statement) and implements the lower, under 20% increase. What can the VM do? Claim improper notice? Sure, they can try. Then the HOA may be stuck with the prior year's budget, or maybe the board has to set up special meeting or... ?. If under the Civ Code the HOA is stuck with the prior year's budget, then [sarcasm]Brilliant move by the VM[/sarcasm].

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

A mailing is like $50 for a 40 units.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 9:29 AM

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 8:48 AM
[can there] be a statement on the notice and budget saying something like "pending member election dated ----"?

I cannot tell what you are proposing. Do you mean send out only the budget with the 25% assessment increase, noting that this is "pending member election dated ---"? And do people at this forum think this would satisfy the statute if (1) owners approve; and (2) owners do not approve?

My proposal was to send out two budgets, with a statement about how the first budget is pending owner approval et cetera (see above).

Would this satisfy, for one, Civ Code 5300? Civ Code 5300 (a) says:

5300 (a) Notwithstanding a contrary provision in the governing documents, an association shall distribute an annual budget report 30 to 90 days before the end of its fiscal year.

KerryL1, for one, might rightly AFAIC observe that:
'Hey, 5300(a) says an annual budget. Meaning just one budget. The board cannot send out two or more budgets and ya know, make this multiple choice. The statute says the board shall distribute one budget.'

Kerry's argument might very well prevail if push came to shove and this landed in court. My own (weaselly-ass?) rebuttal would be:

ElleN:
'The notice is clear that while two budgets are presented, there will be only one budget, depending on the outcome of the owners' vote.'

Kerry comes back with:
'Yeahbut the outcome of the vote is not known until ____.'

ElleN:
'To be safe, I think the vote ought to be certified by ____.'

At this late date, with LmT closer to recommending the board lawyer up, perhaps considering the response of the VM if such-and-such happens might be more worthwhile. For instance, suppose the vote happens and approval of the 25% increase fails. The board claims it gave proper notice (presenting the two budgets with the contingency statement) and implements the lower, under 20% increase. What can the VM do? Claim improper notice? Sure, they can try. Then the HOA may be stuck with the prior year's budget, or maybe the board has to set up special meeting or... ?. If under the Civ Code the HOA is stuck with the prior year's budget, then [sarcasm]Brilliant move by the VM[/sarcasm].

No, that is not what I'm proposing. The most important thing is to preserve the board's ability to increase 14% so that is why the distribution dates are essential. All the deadlines are for when the board alone increases assessments. If their board doesn't meet all the deadlines I mentioned above, and the members vote No on 25%, there will be no increase at all.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 9:39 AM

No, that is not what I'm proposing. The most important thing is to preserve the board's ability to increase 14% so that is why the distribution dates are essential. All the deadlines are for when the board alone increases assessments. If their board doesn't meet all the deadlines I mentioned above, and the members vote No on 25%, there will be no increase at all.

If only the 25% increase budget is sent out, there is no increase until and if the board takes further steps.

If both budgets are sent out IAW the statutory deadlines and with a note on the contingency, I maintain the second budget (with the lower increase as named above) can lawfully take effect et cetera.

Regardless, LmT says above the board plans to get the vote completed before the deadline (January 30 or so).

LmT (California)
Posts: 237

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/21/2023 9:57 AM

Posted By TerriS6 on 12/21/2023 9:39 AM

No, that is not what I'm proposing. The most important thing is to preserve the board's ability to increase 14% so that is why the distribution dates are essential. All the deadlines are for when the board alone increases assessments. If their board doesn't meet all the deadlines I mentioned above, and the members vote No on 25%, there will be no increase at all.

If only the 25% increase budget is sent out, there is no increase until and if the board takes further steps.

If both budgets are sent out IAW the statutory deadlines and with a note on the contingency, I maintain the second budget (with the lower increase as named above) can lawfully take effect et cetera.

Regardless, LmT says above the board plans to get the vote completed before the deadline (January 30 or so).

December 27th Board votes to accept 25% budget with contingency that 14% will be effective should the ballot fail.
December 29th Ballots are sent out
January 28th, Votes are counted
January 29th, Annual Mailing is sent out with whichever budget prevails.

Does this sound reasonable? Mainly, the board voting on the high budget with a contingency to adopt the lower one should the members reject the higher?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think that might be OK, LmT. Nice work!

I continue to believe, tho', that a quick call to your HOA attorney is crucial. If not for the bullies--the 2 most VM retired attorneys--I wouldn't be concerned for you.

I AM happy to see that the budget had indeed been discussed at previous open meetings.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/21/2023 10:17 AM
December 27th Board votes to accept 25% budget with contingency that 14% will be effective should the ballot fail.

More on "conditional motions": So far I am seeing that conditional motions are allowed under Robert's Rules. Even if RR does not apply to your HOA, the fact that RR apparently allows such motions is a good sign. For more discussion, see https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/21700-roberts-rules-conditional-motion/. Also I see online actual city government minutes with an occasional, carefully worded conditional motion.

On Dec 27, I advise two motions in the order given below:

Director Sally, making the first motion:
I motion that the board approve the budget in today's board packet with the 25% assessment increase, provided that the owners approve pursuant to statutory requirements.

[seconded; discussion includes the challenges of the statutory timeline; vote; hopefully the motion passes]

Director Tom, making the second motion:
I motion that the board approve the budget in today's board packet with the 14% assessment increase, provided that the owners do not approve of the 25% assessment increase.

[seconded; discussion; vote; hopefully the motion passes]

I hope your board has above average, sharp directors. If whoever makes the motion nails the wording, I think things should go well. Meaning your board has that much more protection from the VM.

Quote:

Posted By LmT on 12/21/2023 10:17 AM
December 29th Ballots are sent out
January 28th, Votes are counted
January 29th, Annual Mailing [= Annual Budget Report + Annual Policy Statement + ___ ] is sent out with whichever budget prevails.

Looks good enough to me.

If you want more opinions on the legitimacy of the two conditional motions above, consider asking at https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/21/2023 11:00 AM
OR, you could approve the 14% increase, send the annual budget and disclosures on time and then raise the assessments by 11% in June 2024. Save yourself from having to process secret ballots.

Just how is that legal?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Another consideration is your reserve planning update which should correlate to your budget.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 12/21/2023 11:00 AM
OR, you could approve the 14% increase, send the annual budget and disclosures on time and then raise the assessments by 11% in June 2024.

Sure, with one caveat: Civ Code 5605(b) says that this would require an owner's vote for the June 2024 increase.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

LmT No matter that what Elle "advises" about "conditional" motions "makes sense," is "reasonable," etc., Robert's Rules has no legal standing. And, just because city councils may permit such motions, their procedures might not comport with CA statutes.

GET. LEGAL. ADVICE.

I agree with Elle that Aidyl's notion of two increases that total over 20% in one year is not legal in CA. A 20% increase approved by the Board at the 12/27 open meeting can work. It would be followed with a 2nd motion, discussion, etc., to impose a 5% special assessment on owners eff. 1/6/24 or whenever. How those assessment would be collected--over time? One assessment, etc., would need to determined at this meeting as well.

Re: Terri's remark: the election results are "certified," the minute the Inspector of Election announces the outcome to the Board at the vote tabulation meeting. This meeting may be a simple special Board meeting and need not be a meeting of the members.

Also re: Terri: LmT writes above that their reserve study is coming to them any day now. LmT wrote that contributions to reserves will be the same no matter which budget is finally approved.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 2:45 PM
LmT No matter that what Elle "advises" about "conditional" motions "makes sense," is "reasonable," etc., Robert's Rules has no legal standing. And, just because city councils may permit such motions, their procedures might not comport with CA statutes.

GET. LEGAL. ADVICE.

I agree with Elle that Aidyl's notion of two increases that total over 20% in one year is not legal in CA. A 20% increase approved by the Board at the 12/27 open meeting can work. It would be followed with a 2nd motion, discussion, etc., to impose a 5% special assessment on owners eff. 1/6/24 or whenever. How those assessment would be collected--over time? One assessment, etc., would need to determined at this meeting as well.

Re: Terri's remark: the election results are "certified," the minute the Inspector of Election announces the outcome to the Board at the vote tabulation meeting. This meeting may be a simple special Board meeting and need not be a meeting of the members.

Also re: Terri: LmT writes above that their reserve study is coming to them any day now. LmT wrote that contributions to reserves will be the same no matter which budget is finally approved.

Check #6

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/U/Unexpected-Expense

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 12/21/2023 2:45 PM
LmT No matter that what Elle "advises" about "conditional" motions "makes sense," is "reasonable," etc., Robert's Rules has no legal standing.

Uh huh. Of course this is about parliamentary procedure and following the law.

If you could name a statute that is being violated, you would have.