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Rules and Reg Question

Started by LetA • 25 replies • 407 views

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LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Past board voted to amend the rules and regulations to say """blah blah blah."""

Since no new rules and regulations have been updated or sent to the owners with the
new rules and regulations. The PMC has a resident portal on their website with all the
HOA documents, CC&R's Rules and Reg, ARC applications etc, Since the supposed adaptation
of said R&R the published documents are silent, there is no update or a revision date on the docs.

It is my belief and understanding that if the PMC did not update the rules and regs said rule and reg
does not exist.

In a perfect world, the most current documents should be published and made available to all owners.
If the governing documents are indeed amended, they should include a revision date as a point of reference
to pull meeting minutes and the audio recording of the meeting.

Would you agree?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 12/17/2023 4:20 PM
Past board voted to amend the rules and regulations to say """blah blah blah."""

Since [ElleN edit: then,] no new rules and regulations have been updated or sent to the owners with the
new rules and regulations. The PMC has a resident portal on their website with all the
HOA documents, CC&R's Rules and Reg, ARC applications etc, Since the supposed adaptation
of said R&R the published documents are silent, there is no update or a revision date on the docs.

It is my belief and understanding that if the PMC did not update the rules and regs said rule and reg
does not exist.
Failure to give proper notice of a new board-created rule may result in the invalidation of any alleged violation of the new rule.

What "proper" is would depend on the state. By my reading: If state statutes are silent on the point, then whether notice was "proper" will be up to a court. The court would look to see if the board, in exercising its discretion regarding notice, was reasonable.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If the Board voted and you have the meeting minutes of such Board approval, the rule is valid and enforceable. UNLESS it was not made properly in the first place.

What do your Bylaws or CC&Rs, or perhaps R & R themselves, say the Board must do to make a new rule, modify an old one, or eliminate a rule. Is there NV statute on this point?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
What Kerry said.

The property manager works at the board's direction, so the board is where you should start - what was the response when you asked them (and if you didn't, why not?) Does this rule have an effective date and maybe it'll show up on the community website at that time?
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/17/2023 5:22 PM
If the Board voted and you have the meeting minutes of such Board approval, the rule is valid and enforceable.
Your assumption that the Minutes must be distributed to owners, and so the owners have notice, is pretty rad.
DeanJ
Posts: 1,786
Posted:
Yes, the new rules have to be published and some kind of notification made the rules were changed. If the rules are included on the homeowner, portal, my HOA’s attorney believes that is sufficient and a hard copy does not need to be mailed to each homeowner.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 12/17/2023 4:20 PM
Past board voted to amend the rules and regulations to say """blah blah blah."""

Since no new rules and regulations have been updated or sent to the owners with the
new rules and regulations. The PMC has a resident portal on their website with all the
HOA documents, CC&R's Rules and Reg, ARC applications etc, Since the supposed adaptation
of said R&R the published documents are silent, there is no update or a revision date on the docs.

It is my belief and understanding that if the PMC did not update the rules and regs said rule and reg
does not exist.

In a perfect world, the most current documents should be published and made available to all owners.
If the governing documents are indeed amended, they should include a revision date as a point of reference
to pull meeting minutes and the audio recording of the meeting.

Would you agree?

The first thing you need to do is read your bylaws to see what they say about rules. Ours specify a process whereby the new rules have to be mailed to all homeowners as “proposed” for thirty days to allow feedback. Only then can they be passed, usually at the next board meeting.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Elle wrote: "Your assumption that the Minutes must be distributed to owners, and so the owners have notice, is pretty rad." I make no such assumption. While the rules is real because, if properly;y done it's memorialize in meeting minutes, it annoy be enforced if there is some sort of required noticed posted or sent to Owners.

We've yet to see any HOA over the years on this forum that's required to send meeting minutes to all owners. But approved minutes must be provided to owners upon proper written request depending on their state's statutes. Many HOAs now post approved meeting minutes on their protected website.

So, LetA, when you tell us your HOA's or state's statues on how to make new rules, make sure your tell us If/when notice of such a change must be sent to Owners, or posted, or whatever. IMO, the rule cannot be enforced until owners are notified of its very existence!

Weren't you on the board when this rule was approved by the Board? Say, wait, is this a really old rule? Imo, if no notice was ever sent/posted for owners and the rule is say, over 4 or 5 cats old, there may be a statute of limitations. That would need your HOA attorney's opinion & advice.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/18/2023 3:13 PM
IMO, the rule cannot be enforced until owners are notified of its very existence!
Yup. Good thing you corrected your first post.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Please note, elle, that I wrote above the rule is valid "unless not made properly in the first place," which means the whole process including whatever the notice requirement is in LetA's state or doc. While still "valid," it's not enforceable, etc., etc.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DeanJ on 12/17/2023 6:38 PM
Yes, the new rules have to be published and some kind of notification made the rules were changed. If the rules are included on the homeowner, portal, my HOA’s attorney believes that is sufficient and a hard copy does not need to be mailed to each homeowner.

Same here.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/18/2023 7:21 PM
Please note, elle, that I wrote above the rule is valid "unless not made properly in the first place," which means the whole process including whatever the notice requirement is in LetA's state or doc. While still "valid," it's not enforceable, etc., etc.
It's just the usual poor writing and lack of focus on your part.

This thread is obviously, principally about notice.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
There needs to be some kind of notification, of course, in the rule-making process, i.e, in the steps required. But LetA needs to tell us what his docs require, or what NV requires.

Legal notification could be anything from a simple general notice posted on an HOA bulletin board, to mail/emails to each owners, to posting in a newsletter, to posting on a website.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 3:19 PM
There needs to be some kind of notification, of course, in the rule-making process, i.e, in the steps required.
A flimsy back-pedal is better than no back-pedal at all.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 3:19 PM
But LetA needs to tell us
Who is "us"?

You need to see LetA's bylaws, rules and state law. No one else does.
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2023 3:19 PM
Legal notification could be anything from a simple general notice posted on an HOA bulletin board, to mail/emails to each owners, to posting in a newsletter, to posting on a website.
If statutes and bylaws are silent, what proper notice is depends entirely on what the court says tomorrow.

Boards should strive to be reasonable.

I would never advise that 'simple general notice on a HOA bulletin board' is not going to cut it. Not with landlords about. Not with people who do not make a daily trip to the bulletin board.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/19/2023 3:28 PM

I would never advise that 'simple general notice on a HOA bulletin board' is not going to cut it.
Post-o. Change to:

I would never advise that 'simple general notice on a HOA bulletin board' is going to cut it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Look, LetA wants to know, but only he can get the info from his documents. No doubt one kind of notice is required, but there are many options and he needs to know which one(s) his board may utilize.

Say, along with with that question ,LetA, you wrote that a previous Board approved a rule. But you've been on the board for how long?? Five years??? I now wonder if there is a statute of limitation of some kind?

I did not recommend any particular method of notice, elle. Our HOA posts such change notices on the mail room bulletin board because some owners are very lazy about informing their tenants and we have a lot of them. For the same reason, such change notices are posted on our public website and in our monthly newsletter. They are e-blasted to all Owners.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 10:31 AM
Look,
You look.

Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 10:31 AM
Look,
LetA wants to know, but only he can get the info from his documents.
Wrong. LetA asked if people here agreed with the following:
Quote:
Posted By LetA
In a perfect world, the most current documents should be published and made available to all owners.
If the governing documents are indeed amended, they should include a revision date as a point of reference
to pull meeting minutes and the audio recording of the meeting.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
HOW approved rules are "published and made available" is what matters. The requite process. LetA says "in a perfect world," but does not say that's what their docs or NV statutes. say.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/20/2023 11:30 AM
HOW approved rules are "published and made available" is what matters. The requite process. LetA says "in a perfect world," but does not say that's what their docs or NV statutes. say.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if the NRS 116 is specific on the issue. What concerns me is someone coming in now
asking why is X not happening or available and the PMC says the Rules and Regs were amended but the current list of rules and regs for our community
posted on the PMC's website does not have that R&R published with the current R&R's.

My contention is said R&R does not exist. It sets us up for a caca storm.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Assuming that NV or your docs require some kind of notice swan a boar approved new or d changes rues, I agree with you, it cannot be enforced. Maybe place it on the agenda & see what the Board wants to do with it. Either finish the rule-making process correctly, or vote to rescind the board decision made on xx/xx/xxx.
KenK8 (Delaware)
Posts: 1
Posted:
Is it legal or practical for our HOA management company to release the name of a homeowner to an outside indivdiual seeking to file a claim against our HOA homeowner? Although property records are public records, it seems to me that a person seeking the name of a HOA property owner should be told that the HOA is not authorized to release that info and they can ID the property owner another way.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I would make this another thread. The MC just works for the HOA. They may have a different policy. I would have the HOA tell them they do not support this practice. However, not knowing the nature of the claim it can go either way.
Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KenK8 on 01/05/2024 9:04 AM
Is it legal or practical for our HOA management company to release the name of a homeowner to an outside indivdiual seeking to file a claim against our HOA homeowner? Although property records are public records, it seems to me that a person seeking the name of a HOA property owner should be told that the HOA is not authorized to release that info and they can ID the property owner another way.
In my opinion short of a subpoena, the HOA has no legal obligation to provide the names of its members to outsiders.

At a minimum, releasing the name could result in some pretty bad feelings between the HOA and the owner.

The response from management and the board IMO should be simply, "No." Offering any other advice is not professional AFAIC. This is someone else's litigation. Do not help this someone with it. It's just a hornet's nest.

Granted many managers do not have much education; look to stir up trouble against owners who maybe have harassed them; and so on. Do not assume professionalism from HOA managers is the rule. Associations often go cheap on management. The HOA gets what it pays for.

You should start a new thread.
TomM29 (Missouri)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Mo. has no laws but since our HOA is a non profit corporation, any changes need to be presented the the Se. Of State.
also make sure you meet, not and disclose properly.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 108
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/18/2023 3:13 PM
Elle wrote: "Your assumption that the Minutes must be distributed to owners, and so the owners have notice, is pretty rad." I make no such assumption. While the rules is real because, if properly;y done it's memorialize in meeting minutes, it annoy be enforced if there is some sort of required noticed posted or sent to Owners.

We've yet to see any HOA over the years on this forum that's required to send meeting minutes to all owners. But approved minutes must be provided to owners upon proper written request depending on their state's statutes. Many HOAs now post approved meeting minutes on their protected website.

So, LetA, when you tell us your HOA's or state's statues on how to make new rules, make sure your tell us If/when notice of such a change must be sent to Owners, or posted, or whatever. IMO, the rule cannot be enforced until owners are notified of its very existence!

Weren't you on the board when this rule was approved by the Board? Say, wait, is this a really old rule? Imo, if no notice was ever sent/posted for owners and the rule is say, over 4 or 5 cats old, there may be a statute of limitations. That would need your HOA attorney's opinion & advice.

But you must send them the approved new rules after they have been approved by the Board after the 28 day comment period.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, I agree Aidyl.

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