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BobbyB4 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I bought my lots in a POA in East Texas a few years ago. I received my copy of the CCR and By-Laws by mail through a property investment company. They received these files from a board member through email. Me and some other residents have been talking and comparing what our CCR and By-Laws say and some get confused because the copy they have does not match the copy of the another. So, I went to the county and paid for a copy right from the legal source. This is what I found:

At the county I paid for these copies, they are as follows:

The Amended By-Laws on file at the county were revised 06/27/2015 and filed on 07/13/2015, the Amended CCR's on file with the county were revised 06/22/2019 and filed on 07/10/2019.

The copy I have that was emailed to me and others are as follows (and I am sure there are other copies like this out there):

The Amended By-Laws were revised 06/23/2018 and no stamp for filing. Just the blank form.

The Amended CCR's were revised 06/22/2019 and also no stamp for filing. Just the blank form.

When the investment company emailed the same board member to verify the dues the board member ignored the email. Ignoring emails is common by this POA.

My question is this, how did others and I end up with copies of these documents that appear to be invalid and is there any legal recourse.

And this is not the most pressing issue. Selectively ruling that only some member have to pay a special assessment, charging road dues on lots against their own documentation, disabling gate remotes and telling residents to just buy another one instead of reprogramming, trying to retroactively enforce a new fee schedule and dedicatory instruments, not maintaining roads equally or evenly resulting in washed out or clogged culverts and the washout of roads, creating a EULA for the official website that would ban anyone from saying anything negative about the POA anywhere, anytime, on any forum or social media outlet, or engage in lawsuits about POA issues.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not sure about Texas law but some states require the Seller to provide the CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation. Other states it is looked upon as the BUYER's responsibility ALONE. Meaning you are responsible for being "informed" by doing what you did by going to the Records source. It was NOT the POA's responsibility or board member to give them to you. They most likely gave you a copy of what they had. Which in the HOA world doesn't necessarily mean the most up to date copy.

If you are in the state that requires the seller to provide then your investment company may have been responsible. However, IF you bought this through a foreclosure then there is no "seller" to have provided them.

All in all, you are STILL a member of the HOA that is still held to the latest and greatest rules they have on file. You don't get exempt from paying dues or special assessments because you did not get an accurate copy from anyone. You have the right ones now. It would not be unusual or more common that other members in the POA would have various versions due to whenever they bought their property. Those documents are considered PUBLIC. The other just never went and got an updated copy.

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 3:05 PM
I bought my lots in a POA in East Texas a few years ago. I received my copy of the CCR and By-Laws by mail through a property investment company. They received these files from a board member through email. Me and some other residents have been talking and comparing what our CCR and By-Laws say and some get confused because the copy they have does not match the copy of the another. So, I went to the county and paid for a copy right from the legal source. This is what I found:

At the county I paid for these copies, they are as follows:

The Amended By-Laws on file at the county were revised 06/27/2015 and filed on 07/13/2015, the Amended CCR's on file with the county were revised 06/22/2019 and filed on 07/10/2019.

The copy I have that was emailed to me and others are as follows (and I am sure there are other copies like this out there):

The Amended By-Laws were revised 06/23/2018 and no stamp for filing. Just the blank form.

The Amended CCR's were revised 06/22/2019 and also no stamp for filing. Just the blank form.

When the investment company emailed the same board member to verify the dues the board member ignored the email. Ignoring emails is common by this POA.

My question is this, how did others and I end up with copies of these documents that appear to be invalid and is there any legal recourse.
Please explain exactly how you suffered damage due to differences between the documents you received and the ones on record with the county.

Please estimate the dollar value of this damage and how you arrived at this dollar value.

I believe it is the seller who had the obligation to provide you with the correct CCRs and Bylaws. If so, then your claim is against the seller. If the HOA failed to provide the correct documents per the seller's request, then this would be between the seller and the HOA.

Quote:
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 3:05 PM

And this is not the most pressing issue. Selectively ruling that only some member have to pay a special assessmentcharging road dues on lots against their own documentation, disabling gate remotes and telling residents to just buy another one instead of reprogramming, trying to retroactively enforce a new fee schedule and dedicatory instruments, not maintaining roads equally or evenly resulting in washed out or clogged culverts and the washout of roads,
These are impossible to evaluate without seeing the governing documents and much more.
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 3:05 PM
creating a EULA for the official website that would ban anyone from saying anything negative about the POA
No, the HOA cannot stop owners from using other, non-HOA supported social media et cetera to say bad things about the HOA, unless the bad things cross the line to corporate defamation or similar. Whence the HOA could sue whoever spoke the defamatory words.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 3:05 PM
creating a EULA for the official website that would ban anyone from saying anything negative about the POA
The HOA Board can and should ensure a EULA is in place for use of the official web site. It protects the HOA.
BobbyB4 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Please estimate the dollar value of this damage and how you arrived at this dollar value.

There is no monetary amount. It is not about money at all. This is about a board member sending a copy of bylaws and CCRs through an email that had been changed and did not reflect the documents on file with the county at the time they sent them. The ones on file at the county are older than the revised copy that was sent. I thought that amendments had to be filed with the county along with any changes to Governing documents.

I believe it is the seller who had the obligation to provide you with the correct CCRs and Bylaws. If so, then your claim is against the seller. If the HOA failed to provide the correct documents per the seller's request, then this would be between the seller and the HOA.

The HOA board member sent the documents to the investment company. So, I need to contact the investment company?

Quote:
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 3:05 PM

These are impossible to evaluate without seeing the governing documents and much more.

I get that. One thing that stands out is "all special assessments are to be collected from all members" and this board has been collecting on some and not others. A large percentage actually. Around 45% get charged and the rest do not. And the special assessment has no plan. We are told it is for road maintenance but that is included in our maintenance dues.

creating a EULA for the official website that would ban anyone from saying anything negative about the POA
I have zero problem with the rule on the resources and common areas of the HOA. I have a problem when they basically say that you can only tell people good things about the HOA.

No, the HOA cannot stop owners from using other, non-HOA supported social media et cetera to say bad things about the HOA, unless the bad things cross the line to corporate defamation or similar. Whence the HOA could sue whoever spoke the defamatory words.

And I get that. And agree.
BobbyB4 (Texas)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/14/2023 3:42 PM
I am not sure about Texas law but some states require the Seller to provide the CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation. Other states it is looked upon as the BUYER's responsibility ALONE. Meaning you are responsible for being "informed" by doing what you did by going to the Records source. It was NOT the POA's responsibility or board member to give them to you. They most likely gave you a copy of what they had. Which in the HOA world doesn't necessarily mean the most up to date copy.

If you are in the state that requires the seller to provide then your investment company may have been responsible. However, IF you bought this through a foreclosure then there is no "seller" to have provided them.

All in all, you are STILL a member of the HOA that is still held to the latest and greatest rules they have on file. You don't get exempt from paying dues or special assessments because you did not get an accurate copy from anyone. You have the right ones now. It would not be unusual or more common that other members in the POA would have various versions due to whenever they bought their property. Those documents are considered PUBLIC. The other just never went and got an updated copy.

No one said anything about not paying..... And the version they gave was different than the one that was on file at the time. I understand than people have different copies. My issue is that a board member sent a copy that was not valid and was newer than the one on file with the county.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 6:12 PM
Please estimate the dollar value of this damage and how you arrived at this dollar value.

There is no monetary amount. It is not about money at all. This is about a board member sending a copy of bylaws and CCRs through an email that had been changed and did not reflect the documents on file with the county at the time they sent them.
You feel you were defrauded. What I am trying to get across to you is that, if you wanted to go to court for some kind of compensation for this "fraud," and without being able to show that you suffered financial harm, I do not think you have a case that would get you anything.

In civil cases, people sue for either (1) money; or (2) an order from the court for the defendant to do xyz.

I am not an attorney. I am presenting some of the basics of what is needed to get anywhere in a civil lawsuit against who ever gave you the wrong documents. This site helps prepare people for meetings with attorneys AFAIC.

I am not convinced anyone could be criminally prosecuted, either.

Quote:
Posted By BobbyB4 on 12/14/2023 6:12 PM
The ones on file at the county are older than the revised copy that was sent. I thought that amendments had to be filed with the county along with any changes to Governing documents.
Amendments to the CCRs have to be recorded with the county. In Texas amendments to the bylaws do not have to be recorded, by my reading.

As for your other concerns, the best HOA attorneys advise the quickest way to fix problems with what a HOA board is doing is to campaign and run for the board with others who feel as you do, hopefully winning a majority.

Others will likely post their two cents here. Expect them to pound on the fact that you do not appear to have suffered any legal harm with the alleged CCRs and bylaws snafu.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Some basics:

In order to prove fraud, you would have to prove that (1) the act was intentional, not accidental, and (2) done in order to benefit the perpetrator (3) at the expense of the victim.

The burden of proof is on the accuser (ie, the plaintiff) if this would go to court.

In the absence of demonstrable monetary damages, it's entirely possible to spend far more money over years of litigation than the plaintiff could ever hope to recover. An ethical lawyer would point this out. An unethical one may not.

Even if the plaintiff wins, there is no guarantee that they would be able to collect. There are lawyers out there whose specialty is tracking down assets that losing defendants hide from the court. One such lawyer said that, in civil cases, maybe 20% of winning plaintiffs ever see a dime. Fraud is often a criminal matter, however, so things may be different.

For legal advice, talk to a lawyer. Most of us here aren't lawyers, and we're specifically not your lawyer.

Regarding collections in HOAs/condos:

You can't look at how much is outstanding and conclude anything about what the board is or is not doing. Collections and related legal processes are generally confidential, meaning other owners are not entitled to any of the details. From the outside, a case that the board is completely ignoring will look exactly like one where the delinquent owner simply isn't paying. It also costs the association money to go after delinquent owners, and in many cases this can just dig a deeper financial hole that will never get filled. In communities where there is a lot of turnover in the membership, it can make good financial sense to just lien the properties in question and wait for the owners to sell. Unfortunately, the ultimate decider on whether the HOA ever sees its money is the delinquent owner. There is an art to figuring out what kind of delinquent you're dealing with and what the chances are that the HOA will ever be able to collect.

Regarding HOA/condo boards:

These people are not professionals and are not paid for their work. They mess up pretty regularly. This can be aggravating as heck, but it's a fact of life in community associations. You can either live with this, or you can't. I personally think that the solution is to replace untrained amateur boards with paid professionals. But this would require a whole lot of laws to be re-written. It would also make housing even more unaffordable. There are professionals out there who do the work of boards in communities that don't have one. They're called receivers, and they can make more per hour than a lawyer. Communities that go into receivership can see their assessments double overnight, which is why homeowners who know what they're doing try to avoid this.

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