My PM has been lying to me

Started by BillD16 • 10 replies • 262 views

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BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Hi all. It's been awhile, sorry. Between trying to disengage from it all, and then getting depressed over the situation when I think about it, I simply haven't had the energy to try to put anything down in words. Not that I expect that anyone has been on the edge of their seat. But y'all have been very helpful, and I feel some obligation to follow up on matters I've asked about here. But if you don't want to read this, I get it. As I'm writing this I'm reminded of comedian Lenny Bruce when he was being tried for obscenity, and reportedly his act deteriorated into him reading excerpts from court records ... ouch. I don't wanna be like that. I'll summarize first, and then provide details:

Summary: I discovered that our PM has been lying to me. In fact, the last time I posted here, it was over something that (I discovered this morning) was a lie. What can I / should I do about it?

Brief and Rough Details:

October 18: At an Open Meeting, 3 members of the Board attempt a 'coup' and vote to de-President me.

November 8 through November 21: the HOA attorney, our PM, and even one of the backstabber Board members publicly acknowledges that they screwed up and I'm still the President. The backstabber wrote:

Bill is still President until we reconfirm our vote to remove him. We can do that at any time and it does not have to take place in an open meeting. It is best dealt with discreetly.

Frankly, there hasn't been much going on, HOA-wise. I looked into a defamation suit and just suing in general, and - it's expensive, but what really turned me off was warnings from many of you about just how toxic such lawsuits can be in a person's life. Then this morning I was made aware that our PM has been lying to me:

Back on November 8 I posted here, based on what our PM had told me:

> Okay, I’ll make it short: So my Board voted to de-President me last month.
> This morning I find out that three of the 5 Board members “voted” via email
> to close a violation/$50 fine (on DBLady’s landlord). I didn’t know about it
> / they didn’t include me because it was a “conflict of interest”. Our PM
> grudgingly told me about this when I asked him this morning.

I believe the general consensus was "that's not kosher" according to TPC 209.0051.

This morning I discovered that I'd been lied to. The vote to close the violation was initiated by our PM:

On October 26, our PM wrote to the Board (but excluding me):
> Mr. Landlord has stated if the violation fine and violation are
> removed that he does not need a Board hearing. Would you like
> for me to remove these?

On October 31 our PM removed the violation and fine from the Violations database. The PM sent me copies of emails from November 1 and November 7 where it appeared that other Board members had voted to remove the fine, ie "Yes, PM, please waive the fine".

In short: it appears that what really happened was that our PM asked select Board members about removing the fine, then removed the fine, and shortly thereafter a couple of Board members responded "yes, remove it".

So: the PM lied to me. On one hand, I kind've understand where he's coming from: he foresees me going away and doesn't want to upset his new masters. And he's probably okay with the notion that his job will be easier because his new masters won't ask him to do much.

On the other hand: he flat out lied to me. And I've become convinced that he's not really interested in handling work items; more like: he wants work items to go away so he's not bothered by them.

I'm debating reporting him to his mgmt. I'm not a big fan of "let me speak to your manager!" but this might be a case where it is justified. And: I'll spare you the details, but this isn't the first time he's lied.

Thoughts?

Ironically, yesterday I decided it was time to resign as President, and I spent last night "sleeping on it". Only to discover this issue first thing in the morning.

Bill

PS: I'm still going to resign. It'll be something short, like "I resign". Although I'm open for suggestions on how to make it 'bite' a bit more.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 12/06/2023 1:28 PM
On the other hand: he flat out lied to me. And I've become convinced that he's not really interested in handling work items; more like: he wants work items to go away so he's not bothered by them.

I'm debating reporting him to his mgmt. I'm not a big fan of "let me speak to your manager!" but this might be a case where it is justified. And: I'll spare you the details, but this isn't the first time he's lied.

Thoughts?

In my opinion this is a board decision.

If you act alone on this, you are taking on possible liability for yourself and the HOA.

That aside, I think your analysis is spot-on. This manager tried to be supportive of all directors (because he values his job). This resulted in some serious pre-varicating by him. You in particular were led to believe the manager supported you with regard to this horrible incident, where the woman breathed heavily on you, screaming simultaneously.

I hope you stay alert to PTSD symptoms. I do not mean to sound cliche. But the way she assaulted you, and the failure of the board and now PM to back you up, can cause internal conflict. Depression is anger turned inward. In this case the anger is justified. But these somewhat important people are saying what happened to you is of no consequence.

They are idiots. You must separate their incompetence from what competent people would do. And I believe you must accept that they are not competent. They will not change.

How curious that they have not removed you as president. Obviously they are still not reading TPC 209, with regard to removing you.

You have spoken of concerns about posting here. I support you in changing your HOATalk user name. I will report anyone who subsequently outs you. The moderator may or may not respond.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Silence is deadly and makes people wonder .. let them fill in their own opinions.

I had a similar experience with our former pm person assigned to us. Had to go to their boss. Did not do much of got the boss snowed. Can ask to have a new person assigned to your HOA.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

IMO, BillD, you've written of a few instances which showed me that the PM was either ignorant or untrustworthy. And I said so. But you were very reliant on him and thought that you should be. You're confided in him. I asked you a few times to beware and to learn certain things for yourself.

OK, so now you can see a concrete instance when he lied to you. He also said there was a conflict of interest so you couldn't vote about waiving the fine so you shouldn't be included in the online meeting. That is NOT a PM's call to make. Even if you/the board asked you to recuse yourself, you still MUST be included in a board meeting and must receive notice of it it (unless you somehow waived notice of board meetings). Isn't it the case in TX, as in many states, that to vote by email, i.e., to "take action without a meeting," requires all board members to attend? Then, the PM removes the fine before he even has opinions for directors and so there never was a "meeting."

Not sure about TX, but in CA and, I think, other states the Board voting to remove an officer must be done in an open meeting of the Board, not in executive session.So your fellow director probably is wrong. I think it might be rather enjoyable to go through this with the board in an open meeting. They can remove you without clause, but you might ask why you should not be president, et. Ask them one by one. This could be fun. Ad since you AR president, why not call an open meeting with the agenda item being "Reassignment of Officers" or something similar. MAKE them do this in public.

With whomever else said it, don't pursue this in court I really agree. With your ADHD, whose members thrive on crisis, it'll consume you as the incidents that occurred a while back still consume you.

And meanwhile, you're still and will be a member of the Board. How do you see yourself interacting with other directors.? Is the a positive way you can serve your community ?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Interesting point, Aidyl. Since BillD still is president, he, if he has by now read his HOA's contract with an HOA attorney, can contact the attorney to find out how officer's removal from office by a board vote must occur in TX. Generally (not always) the Prescient has th u authority in the contract to contact the attorney So far as we know, he hasn't threatened any kind of legal action against the Board and in previous posts I don't think anyone advised him to do that.

If he can be removed in executive session because he threatens litigation, the Board still would need to hold an open meeting to elect a new president, I'm guessing.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

ElleN wrote:
> In my opinion this is a board decision.
>
> If you act alone on this, you are taking on possible liability for yourself and the HOA.

Can you elaborate further? I'm not seeing how that could happen - but the reason I ask questions here is to learn stuff I don't know.

> That aside, I think your analysis is spot-on. This manager tried to be supportive of all
> directors (because he values his job). This resulted in some serious pre-varicating by him.
> You in particular were led to believe the manager supported you with regard to this horrible
> incident, where the woman breathed heavily on you, screaming simultaneously.
>
> I hope you stay alert to PTSD symptoms. I do not mean to sound cliche. But the way she assaulted
> you, and the failure of the board and now PM to back you up, can cause internal conflict.
> Depression is anger turned inward. In this case the anger is justified. But these somewhat
> important people are saying what happened to you is of no consequence.

Thank you for your support and your considerable perceptiveness! Because - yeah, the overall experience *has* triggered some feelings that I believe can be considered PTSD. The good news is that I'm coping with it all reasonably well, and I already see a psychiatrist regularly because of my ADHD. It may not seem like much, and it may not hit everyone the same, but I definitely feel some anger over it all. And I can only imagine that some people could feel A LOT of anger over it - did you ever see Carrie?

> They are idiots. You must separate their incompetence from what competent people would do. And I believe you must accept that they are not competent. They will not change.

Frankly, my primary motivation for resigning as President is that I don't want to take the blame for the messes these idiots make.

> How curious that they have not removed you as president. Obviously they are still not reading TPC 209, with regard to removing you.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the deal is.

> You have spoken of concerns about posting here. I support you in changing your HOATalk user name. I will report anyone who subsequently outs you. The moderator may or may not respond.

Thank you. I'm considering it.

Kerry and Aidyl: Yeah, I've become very familiar with the process of removing an office. But that's not what I'm asking about. The PM lied to me. I could ignore it. I could report it. I wasn't surprised at the lie - I've raised two kids, I have a certain amount of experience with people who lie. The real trick is successful interaction with people who lie.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Oh, sorry, BillD, I don't think you should do anything about his lies. And based on what you'd previously written about various topics, I'd say that a lot of his mistakes are out of ignorance. Once long ago, I did complain to our onsite PM's supervisor whom I'd come to know quite well and respected about the PM constantly trying overstep her authority. The latter couldn't defend her employee fast enough or dishonestly enough. So I've never tired for help that way ever again.

Elle asked why the Board still hasn't voted you out--properly-- as president. I'd say that a very striking fact about your Board is that it seems to rarely have actual in person board meetings or even virtual and instead tries to govern with online "meetings," which MUST include all directors (unless in litigation vs. the board). That your PM supported the meeting behind your back and illegally to me is much more serious than his lies. So far as I know the decision made in this way are not memorialized in the next open meeting.

Nest thing you know he'll back up th directors who say you can be removed in executive session and states because it's a "personnel matter." Directors are not "personnel."

Has there been an open board meeting since your were falsely fired?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 12/06/2023 6:31 PM

> In my opinion this is a board decision.
>
> If you act alone on this, you are taking on possible liability for yourself and the HOA.

Can you elaborate further? I'm not seeing how that could happen -

First, the contract this manager or his MC has is between the HOA and the manager/MC. You, as only one director, do not have the lawful authority to declare that the manager/MC has violated, say, the contract or behaved unprofessionally. If any one owner has a problem with a manager/MC's conduct, then the owner goes to the board, not the manager's supervisor.

Suppose you get this person fired. Suppose this person believes he did nothing to deserve getting fired. Suppose he sues for wrongful termination and defamation, all caused by you.

Or suppose the manager quits, all because of what you did. Does this serve the best interests of the HOA? It might in your opinion. But this is not your place to say. You usurped the board's authority by not letting the board decide how to handle this. And yes, I know they are idiots. But your going rogue (my opinion) is not going to help the situation.

You did not have the board's approval to seek some kind of black mark on this manager's record.

I am not even sure the lying counts for much here. The guy is trying to keep his job. A board majority backs him. I can understand you (or anyone) taking this personally. But I believe one's personal feelings are supposed to be set aside when one is taking actions on behalf of the HOA.

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 12/06/2023 6:31 PM
Thank you for your support and your considerable perceptiveness! Because - yeah, the overall experience *has* triggered some feelings that I believe can be considered PTSD. The good news is that I'm coping with it all reasonably well, and I already see a psychiatrist regularly because of my ADHD. It may not seem like much, and it may not hit everyone the same, but I definitely feel some anger over it all. And I can only imagine that some people could feel A LOT of anger over it - did you ever see Carrie?

R.I.P. the wonderful Piper Laurie.

But seriously, someone assaulted you. I mean it when I say that. Anyone who says someone getting in another's face and spitting on them while screaming criticism is not a big deal is wrong. It is a big deal. It takes a lot of energy to do nothing and just take it, as you did (on the spot). And you had no idea if this woman was next going to throw a punch or pull out a gun.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 12/06/2023 7:07 PM

But seriously, someone assaulted you. I mean it when I say that. Anyone who says someone getting in another's face and spitting on them while screaming criticism is not a big deal is wrong. It is a big deal. It takes a lot of energy to do nothing and just take it, as you did (on the spot). And you had no idea if this woman was next going to throw a punch or pull out a gun.

Maybe this resonates with me because I had a similar experience. If you can stand it:

About a dozen years ago I was outside in the summer on a Sunday night, checking a HOA owned irrigation timer. The leading HOA dissident, a large burly guy, drives by, sees me, stops the car (large dog in it), gets out, comes over to me and starts yelling, at close range. I ignored him. From past encounters of others, I knew full well this was his M.O. He was not going to have a conversation. He only wanted to intimidate. Several people saw this. I did not have my phone with me. I asked a witness if I could borrow their phone to call the police. The guy is still yelling. I called 911 and asked the police to come. They did. They talked to the guy and warned him. I went home and emailed the rest of the board. I decide to seek a restraining order, pro se. I asked the board to have the HOA pay the $50 filing fee. With a little hesitation by one director, they agreed. With the manager's help, I documented the guy's months of harassment of the managers, the other directors and myself. At the hearing before the judge, I read for like five minutes straight. I put all the documentation into the court records. The judge issued the restraining order. Among other things the order said, it included a finding that this guy was harassing several other directors and the managers at the HOA. It was vindicating.

If the board had refused to pay for the R.O. filing, I would have felt terrible.

You got none of this.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I just posted this on a thread about a board member who feels trapped. When I finished, I realized that it applies here as well - so here are my words of wisdom.

We've had discussions with other board members who feel that they can't step down, and I understand why they feel that way. Here's the contrarian view.

All homeowners share the responsibility for running their associations. Yes, some are more qualified than others, and some should probably never get anywhere near board service. But a large chunk of homeowners refuse to have anything to do with volunteering - and worse, they feel entitled to free professional services from a minority of owners. It's in their best interests to convince the minority that the place will fall apart without them. If you're a board member who feels like they can't step down, you're supporting the entitled folks' view of things.

Is that what you want?

Taking a broader view, it's not in the association's best interest if there is such a mismatch between the skilled few who volunteer and the uninformed majority who won't stir a finger. Maintaining that mismatch may provide a short term benefit but at the expense of the longer term well being of the community.

Next, the best board members seem to burn out the fastest. The community either loses them sooner, or they stay in place and become increasingly less productive.

Finally, you should never sacrifice your own mental and physical health for a job that no one else is similarly invested in.

All this is my permission to step down whenever you want to - although if you're the last serving board member, please appoint at least one other person before you walk away. I stepped down when it appeared I was outnumbered by board members who seemed determined to get themselves sued, because my presence would have done nothing except make me nuts. And it would have prolonged the craziness on the board, since the others were the kind to dig in their heels if they had any opposition. Giving them enough rope to hang themselves actually shortened the time during which they got to learn painful lessons.

You are not responsible for messes that other people make - they are responsible. The rest of the membership is also responsible if they elect the mess makers and don't do anything about it when it becomes clear what's going on. You don't have the power to save people from themselves, and trying to do so won't change the eventual outcome. Go in peace, you've done more than your share.

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