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CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Well, this is depressing.

The recent New York Times article linked below starts off with this blurb: "A homeowner’s association is a democracy, but living in one involves subjecting yourself to some intrusion. It’s all in the bylaws."

No, it isn't. A homeowners association is a corporation with a corporate form of governance. It's not a social club or fraternal organization or... a democracy. Just because owners vote for board candidates doesn't mean the law changes.

And no, it's not "all in the bylaws". It's also in the CC&Rs and in the Articles of Incorporation and in your state's corporate statutes.

Heaven help us. It's no wonder that homeowners are confused about this stuff. The Times generally gets things right, but this is a big one to get wrong. (And while I'm ranting, what's with "homeowner's association"? Is it just one homeowner? Because that's what the misplaced apostrophe says. So shame on the editor as well as the fact checkers. Journalism is so going down the drain.)

a target=_blank href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/02/realestate/my-home-community-is-forcing-inspections-can-they-do-that.html">My Home Community is Forcing Inspections. Can They Do That?

(This is behind a paywall, and the mistakes above don't make me inclined to fork out any money - not even to send the author a stiffly worded correction.)

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
At least the main body of the article (part of a Q and A) corrected the summary. See below. The discussion still has some errors. From the NY Times site:

A: The articles of declaration and bylaws for your townhome community will state which actions are within the board’s power.

Homeowners’ associations have elected boards that have a fiduciary duty to members and are charged with putting members’interests first and acting in good faith. Boards often have wide authority to carry out their duties, depending on what is contained in the community’s documents.

In many homeowners associations, the bylaws state that exterior maintenance, including window repair and replacement and weatherproofing, is the responsibility of each homeowner.

Under New York law, a board’s decision to conduct a community wide exterior inspection, and to hire an outside vendor to conduct it, will be protected by the “business judgment rule,” as long as the decision to inspect was made for legitimate corporate purposes, was authorized by the bylaws, was applied to all homeowners, and was made in good faith, said Nancy Kourland, a partner with Lasser Law Group, which practices on Long Island.

“Here, it appears that the board is well within its authority to hire a professional inspection company to assist it in performing communitywide inspections of all exteriors,” Ms. Kourland said.

If you dispute the inspector’s findings, you could hire your own inspector and use that report as a negotiating tool with the board over the scope of the repairs.

Even if you find that the board does not have the authority to mandate these inspections, you must decide whether you are willing to fight it, said Andrew Lieb, a New York lawyer who handles real estate litigation. Complying with the inspections will likely save you thousands of dollars on a potentially expensive and lengthy legal battle. You could also use the situation as fuel for your own campaign for the board, or that of a like-minded neighbor.

A homeowner’s association is a democracy, but living in one involves subjecting yourself to some intrusion, Mr. Lieb said: “You’re signing up for it.”
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Cathy

While I do not disagree with you many go into an association thinks it is a democracy where they will get to vote on every nit picking issue and, as you correctly point out, it is not.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Fortunately I subscribe to the NY Times and was able to read the article on the website, along with some of the comments. As you might guess, most were a rehash of what we see on this website day and day out. Some of the comments were pretty good, like this one:

This country was founded on a principle of individualism and many, many Americans have difficulty dealing with any notion of community or common good.

I believe this is the #1 reason why there's so much drama in HOAs, and no, I'm not discounting greedy developers, property managers who take advantage of unsuspecting board members and the board members who are untrained, egotistical, power hungry and just plain lazy. Along with the homeowners who refuse to read anything and don't want to try to talk things out (it's easier to call the board dictators because you don't want to believe there's a requirement for you to get permission before you make certain exterior changes, although that was the rule when you first moved in 10 years ago.)

Whoever wrote the letter was P.O'ED because the board is having the windows of the townhouse community inspected and if there are problems, the homeowner will be given time to correct them or be fined. Context is everything, and i don't know why the reporter didn't ask what the documents say or what type of problems they're trying to catch or is this is something tge board has discussed in previous meetings.

The letter writer then said "based on our experience, we expect that deficiencies to be highly discretionary (?) He or she yapped about there already being a mechanism to address obvious problems, so why is this necessary? Well it wouldn't be necessary if people would look around their homes every now and then and fix the small issues before they grow into the obvious ones. I live in a townhouse community and although the association takes care of the building skeleton, I will still call about a loose downspout or suggest someone take a look at the tree in my front yard because it's in bad need of pruning.

Of course, all of this takes too long and writers have deadlines and are also lazy, as Cathy noted, and want the readers to read the thing (clickbait and all that) and it's fun to weep and gnash one's teeth about the big bad HOA - again.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Shelia

You hit the nail on the head when you said:

This country was founded on a principle of individualism and many, many Americans have difficulty dealing with any notion of community or common good.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
I get the point that people have the attitude. it's my property and I'll do as I want. That don't mean you make your house look
like a Tijuana Llantera shop or you rent out your house for the weekend and 100 people show up for a kegger and destroy the tranquility
of the neighborhood.

Local Jurisdictions have laws and ordinance that are supposed to keep neighborhoods nice tho rarely enforced these days.
HOA's on the other hand do in fact do what local jurisdictions won't, can't or don't; and thats enforce the covenants.
LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249
Posted:
I used to think that in part. But I also saw it as a representative republic. I never thought that I would get to vote on much except for the directors. I think the hardest part may be that people have trouble with knowing that their neighbors are the people in control of the money. I also think some of the nit picking for nonconsequential violations angers people. In my opinion one of the main things is that we feel that our neighbors are our equals and how dare they scold us for stuff and what makes them qualified to govern. I'm speaking of self-governed HOA's.

This forum is good at educating people in HOAs. I certainly got a good education by coming here.
LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LayaS on 12/02/2023 4:01 PM
I used to think that in part. But I also saw it as a representative republic. I never thought that I would get to vote on much except for the directors. I think the hardest part may be that people have trouble with knowing that their neighbors are the people in control of the money. I also think some of the nit picking for nonconsequential violations angers people. In my opinion one of the main things is that we feel that our neighbors are our equals and how dare they scold us for stuff and what makes them qualified to govern. I'm speaking of self-governed HOA's.

This forum is good at educating people in HOAs. I certainly got a good education by coming here.

I might add how dare you scold me and FINE me for stupid stuff like I forgot to put my garbage cans away on time. I know now there is way more to it than issuing fines and telling people what they can and cannot do on property that they own.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
our HOA is as democratic as it gets. maybe everyone else is running their's wrong.

vis ta vie
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With Shelia & JohnC, "the individual" is the heart of the matter to me, and those cited and the writer drink the same potion, which we can see in the language THEY use. Here's one:

"Homeowners’[sic*] associations have elected boards that have a fiduciary duty to members and are charged with putting members’ interests first and acting in good faith." Because we're in the USA, people reading this see individual members. But the Business Judgement Rules everywhere do NOT say to put the "members' interests" first, they state the "corporation's best interests. The corporation is no single individual. The corporation is not a compilation of individual 1 + individual. 2, etc.

None of the governing documents in my HOA say that the duty, obligation, job or purpose of the HOA is to somehow take care or do what's best for "members." How about yours?

While the AOI, & declaration show more than one purpose for my HOA, The basic is in most, I'm guessing, is to protect, maintain, restore and enhance the common areas. Thus I have no doubt, living in a condo bldg. as I do, that the governing documents give the board the authority to have anything inspected that might have a negative impact on the common area exterior of the THs.

Yet, we often see posters who think that the corporation's attorney is the "members'" attorney, i.e, A member's attorney, and don't grasp why they cannot phone the HOA's GC with a problem. I agree with Shelia that many issues in HOAs stem from the belief in the sovereignty of the almighty individual. That's why, imo, we often get posts from someone who wants to run around and fix things on their own lonesome, OR have some sort of state actor fix their HOA and rescue the person.

Because of rampant US individualism, It takes lots of effort on the part of some of us to insist that uniting with many neighbors to achieve a shared goal and acting collectively IS the cheapest and probably fastest way to make change.

Is NY state HOA language different than other states? The emphasis on Bylaws elsewhere is misplaced as the board's powers are clearly spelled out in the CC&Rs (covenants, declaration, deed restrictions) AND elaborations are in the Rules, which in CA are a governing doc. It's Unlikely that the bylaws state that the board can order inspections of windows. So one person wrote "A: The articles of declaration and bylaws for your townhome community will state which actions are within the board’s power." I have never heard of "Articles of declaration." A NY thing? Some kind of error?

* This might vary all over the US, but around my region, there is no apostrophe in "XXX Homeowners Association." And mine happens to be an "Owners Association," and guess what? my computer wants me to put an apostrophe after the s in Owners. Our HOA, of course, gets bids, etc., from vendors who put apostrophes wherever they want. I'm not trained in such things, but my understanding is that in the case of a homeowners association, homeowners is NOT a possessive word but, instead is a descriptive word or an adjective. If uncertain, look at copy of a recorded doc of your HOA, i.e., our CC&Rs & AOI have no apostrophes.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LayaS on 12/02/2023 4:15 PM
Posted By LayaS on 12/02/2023 4:01 PM
I used to think that in part. But I also saw it as a representative republic. I never thought that I would get to vote on much except for the directors. I think the hardest part may be that people have trouble with knowing that their neighbors are the people in control of the money. I also think some of the nit picking for nonconsequential violations angers people. In my opinion one of the main things is that we feel that our neighbors are our equals and how dare they scold us for stuff and what makes them qualified to govern. I'm speaking of self-governed HOA's.

This forum is good at educating people in HOAs. I certainly got a good education by coming here.


I might add how dare you scold me and FINE me for stupid stuff like I forgot to put my garbage cans away on time. I know now there is way more to it than issuing fines and telling people what they can and cannot do on property that they own.

When one person does this and goes without repercussions, then the whole neighborhood does it and the community looks like a garbage dump.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 12/02/2023 7:44 PM
Posted By LayaS on 12/02/2023 4:15 PM
Posted By LayaS on 12/02/2023 4:01 PM
I used to think that in part. But I also saw it as a representative republic. I never thought that I would get to vote on much except for the directors. I think the hardest part may be that people have trouble with knowing that their neighbors are the people in control of the money. I also think some of the nit picking for nonconsequential violations angers people. In my opinion one of the main things is that we feel that our neighbors are our equals and how dare they scold us for stuff and what makes them qualified to govern. I'm speaking of self-governed HOA's.

This forum is good at educating people in HOAs. I certainly got a good education by coming here.


I might add how dare you scold me and FINE me for stupid stuff like I forgot to put my garbage cans away on time. I know now there is way more to it than issuing fines and telling people what they can and cannot do on property that they own.


When one person does this and goes without repercussions, then the whole neighborhood does it and the community looks like a garbage dump.

Actually what happens when one person doesn't put away their garbage can, is no one gives a s***. show me one video that shows "EVERYONE" suddenly not putting away thier garbage cans. Give me a break.

vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
The problem with letting one person's violation go is something called selective enforcement. The rules apply to everyone. I think that's one of the good things about community associations, no one should get favorable treatment over others (and yes, I know it can happen with incompetent boards).

The main problem is that people buy property governed by an HOA without understanding what they're buying, and articles like the one in the Times make this worse by referring to HOAs as democracies. That's exactly what HOAs are not. And then owners get all butt-hurt and angry at their boards when the owners' expectations aren't met.

I've mentioned in the past that the only safe way to jointly own property with others is via a corporate structure or something similar. For example, without that structure, individual owners would be unable to insure the jointly owned assets because they don't belong to them personally. They would have uninsured liabilities, which is a recipe for bankruptcy. Without the legal framework of the HOA, the purchase agreements that buyers sign would have to replicate all of the legal and financial protections that the HOA would provide - in other words, the purchase agreement would have to create some version of a corporation. This doesn't even include all of the protections that various state and federal laws also provide.

One of the other benefits of corporations is that they're run by boards who have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the corporation. Homeowners have no such obligations. Who do you want managing your jointly owned assets: someone who has a duty to act for the benefit of those assets, or someone who is acting for their own personal benefit? This is where the notion of running an HOA as a democracy breaks down.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
There are over 50,000 HOAs in this country, so you really can't generalize like that. It may not get caught on video, but just as peopke in one HOA might not care about the one garbage can or cart that's still on the street, there are others that do - especially after someone runs into the garbage can by accident. Or it gets stolen (yes stealing garbage carts is a thing - happened to a relative of mine). Or gets knocked down by the wind before the truck arrives and spills trash everywhere and some of that lands on YOUR lawn.

I agree that some HOAs are too picky about certain things, but if you have a rule, don't you think it would be better for you, your blood pressure and your next door neighbor to be considerate and just comply? If you think the rule is unnecessary, outdated ir unclear, you can work to change it instead of simply ignoring it.

Living in HOAs require people to pay a bit more attention to what the board is doing, but no one wants to do that either because they were told that "the association will take care of this or that" and you don't have to do anything. The developer says this in the sales brochures and so do the realtors because they want the house to sell, and homeowners don't bother to educate themselves on what living in a HOA really means.

All of that said, some of the commentators to the article did say when they were home shopping they were clear in saying they wouldn't consider a home in a H9A at all, and that's OK, too.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 12/03/2023 5:30 AM
The problem with letting one person's violation go is something called selective enforcement. The rules apply to everyone. I think that's one of the good things about community associations, no one should get favorable treatment over others (and yes, I know it can happen with incompetent boards).

The main problem is that people buy property governed by an HOA without understanding what they're buying, and articles like the one in the Times make this worse by referring to HOAs as democracies. That's exactly what HOAs are not. And then owners get all butt-hurt and angry at their boards when the owners' expectations aren't met.

I've mentioned in the past that the only safe way to jointly own property with others is via a corporate structure or something similar. For example, without that structure, individual owners would be unable to insure the jointly owned assets because they don't belong to them personally. They would have uninsured liabilities, which is a recipe for bankruptcy. Without the legal framework of the HOA, the purchase agreements that buyers sign would have to replicate all of the legal and financial protections that the HOA would provide - in other words, the purchase agreement would have to create some version of a corporation. This doesn't even include all of the protections that various state and federal laws also provide.

One of the other benefits of corporations is that they're run by boards who have a fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the corporation. Homeowners have no such obligations. Who do you want managing your jointly owned assets: someone who has a duty to act for the benefit of those assets, or someone who is acting for their own personal benefit? This is where the notion of running an HOA as a democracy breaks down.


I just don't believe that an HOA board can or will enforce everything 100 percent equally. Life happens. Sometimes an owner may be delayed in getting their garbage cans back out of sight or wherever it's supposed to be. There could be many reasons for that such as a crying baby or illness or just simply an oversight. There are other examples. Like I forgot to move my vehicle with advertisements on it in a timely manner. There are other examples but I am just mentioning those two. An owner may live in a community with a common sense board who take each violation as it comes or there are others who have an overzealous board eager to FINE owners for small violations. I'm not talking about the big stuff. It seems that the small stuff is what gives an HOA a bad name. I have no statistics to back that up. It's my opinion formed by some of the common complaints owners bring to this forum. I have been on this forum for many years. Again, I believe it is a perception that uneducated people buying into an HOA do not understand that when buying into one you are not going to be living in a democracy.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I think the cause of HOA conflict is almost entirely today's intellectual laziness in understanding what one has purchased. To me it goes hand-in-hand with our instant-gratification culture: "I want this pretty little home (or McMansion on four acres). Give it to me. I do not care about the fine print or 100 pages of -- whatdyacallit? -- Declaration and bylaws."
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
My opinion has always been a HOA is a corporation with a "quasi-government" feel. Meaning it is setup under a corporate structure where one does not directly vote for the President. The officer positions are voted by the elected board members among themselves. However, due to people actually "running" for these positions and confusion on how we elect our President/senators/congress it gets confused/infused. A HOA doesn't have a "judicial" part in it's setup because the job itself is enforcement of rules. (Outside of budget). It doesn't help when a MC crosses the line to make things even more "fuzzy".

Not everything is in it's "By-laws". That is why if you read them you find that things can be added or subtracted by the membership or maybe board by majority vote. It is the majority vote process that also contributes to the fuzziness of the line between corporate and government. Corporate acts on the majority of it's shareholders. However, in a HOA majority vote is harder to obtain and takes more of a personal aspect.

A good leaders in a HOA whom volunteer (Corporate usually paid high wages) recognize they are running a not for profit corporation. They recognize and incorporate it on a daily basis. It's those HOA's whom don't recognize the structure and try to run it the "government way" things get dirty and nasty. IMO.

Former HOA President
NA1 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 190
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 7:24 AM
I think the cause of HOA conflict is almost entirely today's intellectual laziness in understanding what one has purchased. To me it goes hand-in-hand with our instant-gratification culture: "I want this pretty little home (or McMansion on four acres). Give it to me. I do not care about the fine print or 100 pages of -- whatdyacallit? -- Declaration and bylaws."

Another issue seems to be inability to comprehend. I don't know if it's a literacy problem, because statute, deeds and corporate charters can be complex to read, a civics problem, or if it's something else.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 12/03/2023 5:30 AM

The main problem is that people buy property governed by an HOA without understanding what they're buying, and articles like the one in the Times make this worse by referring to HOAs as democracies. That's exactly what HOAs are not.

My HOA is a democracy. Members just voted to reduce dues, reduce Board terms to 2 years, stop mowing a football sized area of park that hardly anyone uses, etc. get off your high horse and get over it. HOA's should be democracies or as close to possible. there is no reason for 3 to 7 board members to not take into account membership voting when it can easily be done online and tabulated automatically for $30 using election buddy or similar platforms.

you wnat to run your HOA like a communist dictator ship fine. but dont expect to post your rant here and expect everyone to agree and then start arguing with people that think differently. you have no control over it, and no one's gonna change how thier HOA is run due to your ranting.

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 7:58 AM
HOA's should be democracies or as close to possible. there is no reason for 3 to 7 board members to not take into account membership voting
Thee reason boards should disregard certain owners' votes: Because the law says so.

You all are volunteers. You want to test the waters, going rogue to some extent. We'll see how this plays out over the coming years.

At least you qualified your statement about democracies. Because I think many owner majorities in HOAs would be happy to trample on significant lawful rights of an owner minority, especially where money is involved.

Related aside: IMO the NY Times's discussion's sound bite is as dumb as saying the United States is a democracy. It's not. The U. S. is a constitutional republic.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NA1 on 12/03/2023 7:37 AM
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 7:24 AM
I think the cause of HOA conflict is almost entirely today's intellectual laziness in understanding what one has purchased. To me it goes hand-in-hand with our instant-gratification culture: "I want this pretty little home (or McMansion on four acres). Give it to me. I do not care about the fine print or 100 pages of -- whatdyacallit? -- Declaration and bylaws."


Another issue seems to be inability to comprehend. I don't know if it's a literacy problem, because statute, deeds and corporate charters can be complex to read, a civics problem, or if it's something else.

I think it's all of the above, depending on who you talk to. I remember when I was in high school, you were expected to read at a 12th grade level when you graduated. By the the time I finished college it had dropped to a 10th grade level. A few years later, I had a job where I drafted a brochure and was told to change some of the copy to kick it down to an 8th grade level, and the last time I was in a conversation about this, I was told the brochures published by the government are written at a 6th grade level.

Now, you don't need $5 or $10 words to make your point, but reading does take a certain amount of thought and concentration, and too many people lack that. It doesn't help that tbe lawyers who write these statutes, CCRS and whatnot are basically trained to write legalese in school so they end up being tge only people who understand what the hell the documents say. Or are supposed to say, because a judge can come along and reinterpret it another way.

Thus also applies to the legislators, no matter the level, who don't read the bills they're voting on (which are usually written by lobbyists who have their own agenda.)

As for civics, its not taught in schools at all or the people teaching it have been hampered by a bunch of rules enacted by people who don't know the differences between republics, democracies, socialism, communism, authoritarianism and monarchy. That's important to understand what the board and the homeowners' rights and responsibilities are. If anyone needs a refresher on democracy vs. republic (were not talking about political parties), start with this:
https://www.thoughtco.com/republic-vs-democracy-4169936


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 8:37 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 7:58 AM
HOA's should be democracies or as close to possible. there is no reason for 3 to 7 board members to not take into account membership voting
Thee reason boards should disregard certain owners' votes: Because the law says so.

You all are volunteers. You want to test the waters, going rogue to some extent. We'll see how this plays out over the coming years.

At least you qualified your statement about democracies. Because I think many owner majorities in HOAs would be happy to trample on significant lawful rights of an owner minority, especially where money is involved.

Related aside: IMO the NY Times's discussion's sound bite is as dumb as saying the United States is a democracy. It's not. The U. S. is a constitutional republic.


THE LAW doesn't say the HOA SHOULD disregard certain votes. The law says the Board CAN do that.
just because you can doesn't mean you should.
we can keep this up all week and it wont' make a hill of beans difference. like I said run your HOA anyways you fit, doesn't effect me, but dont' come here and tell others they need to run it your way.

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 9:10 AM
THE LAW doesn't say the HOA SHOULD disregard certain votes.
Hypothetical: Majority of owners vote to reduce the assessment (with the vote not being legally bindingon the board). Board examines budget and finds it cannot do xyz involving safety of life and property, that is required in the covenants, unless the assessment is per the budget the board prepared.

If the board does as the owners want, it could be found liable.

I understand that you think boards should just make things up as they go along, according to what makes sense to them, and statutes, bylaws and covenants be damned.

But I am not convinced this is what people come here to read.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 10:03 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 9:10 AM
THE LAW doesn't say the HOA SHOULD disregard certain votes.
Hypothetical: Majority of owners vote to reduce the assessment (with the vote not being legally bindingon the board). Board examines budget and finds it cannot do xyz involving safety of life and property, that is required in the covenants, unless the assessment is per the budget the board prepared.

If the board does as the owners want, it could be found liable.

I understand that you think boards should just make things up as they go along, according to what makes sense to them, and statutes, bylaws and covenants be damned.

But I am not convinced this is what people come here to read.

LOL then decrease services. or get a grant or get vendors that cost less. Everyone acts as if the hoA budget is on a shoeString, but they are typically pork bareled with fat for the Mgt and Lawyers to take.

why is it that people assume there is only one way to balance an HOA budget. We've had water sprinklers for 25 years, guess what I turned them off and no one gave a sh** this year. Cut half as much grass in the park decreased lawn care bill by 66% no one gave a sh** about that either. And yes we voted on it and we are getting 70% approval on these reductions in expenses. But every HOA messaging board is saying reducing expenses is impossible???

I understand that you think everyone should just agree with your opinion and if they dont' they should be labeled as lawless ancharist, but the fact remains that I've read the law and have debated it with you and know what I am talking about. How many HOA board members buy a legal book and read it? I have, most have not.

dont' mistake disagreement with ignorance.


vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 10:03 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 9:10 AM
THE LAW doesn't say the HOA SHOULD disregard certain votes.
Hypothetical: Majority of owners vote to reduce the assessment (with the vote not being legally bindingon the board). Board examines budget and finds it cannot do xyz involving safety of life and property, that is required in the covenants, unless the assessment is per the budget the board prepared.

If the board does as the owners want, it could be found liable.

I understand that you think boards should just make things up as they go along, according to what makes sense to them, and statutes, bylaws and covenants be damned.

But I am not convinced this is what people come here to read.

your example is ridiculous. I've never read a single example of that ever happening. we voted to reduce expenses because the budget proved it would be fine. Never ever have I heard of owenrs voluntarily underfunding an HOA budget.

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 10:43 AM
I've never read a single example of that ever happening.
That you are unaware of the Surfside condo collapse does not surprise me.
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 10:43 AM
we voted to reduce expenses because the budget proved it would be fine. Never ever have I heard of owenrs voluntarily underfunding an HOA budget.
Then you have not been following threads here speaking of same several times in the last few months.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
IMO the NY Times's discussion's sound bite is as dumb as saying the United States is a democracy. It's not. The U. S. is a constitutional republic.

This point is always brought up by people that disagree with what the majority want. It's so cliche. the "logic" goes like this: I am right, even though I am in the minority, because some piece of paper says I can over ride all of your votes with my minority opinion.

The Government is what the people make of it. some leaders will be more democratic and listen to their constitutents and other leaders will want to gerryrig it all so they stay in power and then say what they are doing is legal and we live in a constitutional republic not a democracy as if that make what they are doing OK. cheating isn't right, even if legal.


vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 11:03 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 10:43 AM
I've never read a single example of that ever happening.
That you are unaware of the Surfside condo collapse does not surprise me.
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 10:43 AM
we voted to reduce expenses because the budget proved it would be fine. Never ever have I heard of owenrs voluntarily underfunding an HOA budget.
Then you have not been following threads here speaking of same several times in the last few months.

we are not a condo, our reserve study is $15,000. Surfside was in the millions
apples to oranges.

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 11:12 AM
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 11:03 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 10:43 AM
I've never read a single example of that ever happening.
That you are unaware of the Surfside condo collapse does not surprise me.
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 10:43 AM
we voted to reduce expenses because the budget proved it would be fine. Never ever have I heard of owenrs voluntarily underfunding an HOA budget.
Then you have not been following threads here speaking of same several times in the last few months.


we are not a condo, our reserve study is $15,000. Surfside was in the millions
apples to oranges.
Thank you for agreeing that boards should disregard certain owners' votes.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 11:07 AM
IMO the NY Times's discussion's sound bite is as dumb as saying the United States is a democracy. It's not. The U. S. is a constitutional republic.

This point is always brought up by people that disagree with what the majority want. It's so cliche. the "logic" goes like this: I am right, even though I am in the minority, because some piece of paper says I can over ride all of your votes with my minority opinion.
You graduated high school and that's it, correct?

Because you have no understanding of why the Constitution and even Declarations are designed to protect certain rights of minorities.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/03/2023 11:23 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 12/03/2023 11:07 AM
IMO the NY Times's discussion's sound bite is as dumb as saying the United States is a democracy. It's not. The U. S. is a constitutional republic.

This point is always brought up by people that disagree with what the majority want. It's so cliche. the "logic" goes like this: I am right, even though I am in the minority, because some piece of paper says I can over ride all of your votes with my minority opinion.
You graduated high school and that's it, correct?

Because you have no understanding of why the Constitution and even Declarations are designed to protect certain rights of minorities.

that's so rich. equating gerrymandering power grabs to protecting the rights of minorities. What's next, we need to take away your voting rights to protect you from yourself?

vis ta vie
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Why so hostile? I think everyone knows every HOA community is different, so what works in yours may not in my community and vice versa. We can agree to disagree on anything on this website, but it's not worth blowing a gasket over. No one is suggesting that a board ignore what the community wants - sometimes all you can do is give people the information and let them decide. If they decide not to fund reserves or fix playgrounds, one can only hope the decision doesn't come back to bite them in the behind.

You said earlier your community just voted to reduce assessments, but in your previous conversation on the subject, you said it appeared you were the only person who seemed to understand the budget, noting some responses in an owner surveys had comments like "why don't we have a swimming pool?" Well, swimming pools cost money to guild and maintain, and that cost will continue to increase, but you also voted for lower assessments. What do you think that homeowner would say if you pointed that out and asked him or her to get some information showing how the community could pull that off?

I'm not suggesting your approach is bad because I don't live in your community and I do hope it works. That said, its dangerous to make assumptions about anything or say something doesn't happen or exist because you yourself haven't seen it and it sounds silly. The older I get the more I find that if I keep on living, life will get stranger and stranger. That's ok - hopefully it keeps me on my toes. You only stop learning when you depart the planet.

Which leads to another problem with HOAs and the people living in them ' short term thinking. Im not going to be here in 10 or 20 years, so why should I have to pay for roofs or streets I'll never use? Some of that thinking likely went on with Surfside. It's the same attitude with overeating - eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we will die! And then you find you're still here at 45 or 50, suffering from a severe heart attack and your life has been turned upside down for good.

Yes, it's important to get feedback from the owners, but when it comes to fiduciary duty, board members can't hesitate to be the adults in the room and make the tough decisions. I don't know if all homeowners appreciate that because they sit at home while the board pores over the numbers trying to ensure everything is paid for and reserves are funded and lack of rule enforcement doesn't turn the community into a free for all.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 12/03/2023 12:55 PM
Why so hostile?
It's my fault. I provoked her.

I realize it is so important to recognize that, like Herman Wouk's USS Caine, many HOAs and COAs may have boards run by Captain Queegs (or people not perfectly qualified but certainly sufficiently qualified). That's not supposed to be a slam on the Queegs of the world. Quite the opposite. Without the Queegs, far more HOAs and COAs would be in receivership.

I know it's a big deal, and overall likely a quite positive thing, to have someone like WendyM5 step up and work to better her HOA.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 12/03/2023 12:55 PM
but when it comes to fiduciary duty, board members can't hesitate to be the adults in the room and make the tough decisions. I don't know if all homeowners appreciate that because they sit at home while the board pores over the numbers trying to ensure everything is paid for and reserves are funded and lack of rule enforcement doesn't turn the community into a free for all.

I doubt most board members pour over the numbers. I bet most of them just hand it over to the Mgt company and do what the mgt company recommends. Maybe Im jaded but that's what our board did for 25 years. It neither increased home values or had any other positive aspect. Our park was not even insured during that time.

Of course I'm one of the few that are not pro HOA and pro board members.

vis ta vie
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
A HOA is NOT to increase home values. Home values are based on REAL numbers not fantasy. A HOA is to keep homes or property attractive to potential buyers so they will purchase in the range of sale prices.

You sound like one of those people who can not understand why Starbucks is not open when every employee quits. Why is the store not open? Why no one there to operate it. But hey the prices have lowered...

Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/03/2023 4:30 PM
A HOA is NOT to increase home values. Home values are based on REAL numbers not fantasy. A HOA is to keep homes or property attractive to potential buyers so they will purchase in the range of sale prices.

You sound like one of those people who can not understand why Starbucks is not open when every employee quits. Why is the store not open? Why no one there to operate it. But hey the prices have lowered...

double talk nonsense. what you wrote is the same as increasing home values.

vis ta vie
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
No it is not. Home values are based on real numbers that houses have sold or foreclosed on in a 6month period. That is tangible and can see and touch it. You can not touch if someone did not buy a house because it was in a HOA or hated the color. Where are those numbers? Fantasy land in your head.

Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/03/2023 5:09 PM
No it is not. Home values are based on real numbers that houses have sold or foreclosed on in a 6month period. That is tangible and can see and touch it. You can not touch if someone did not buy a house because it was in a HOA or hated the color. Where are those numbers? Fantasy land in your head.

so home appraisals are also fantasy land, got it.

vis ta vie
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Melissa, you've tried to make this argument repeatedly. But, when posters have questions about their particular HOA, you advise, "read your documents; it's all there." You do own in an HOA. Please cite for us the section or phrase in any of your governing documents that your "...HOA is to keep homes or property attractive to potential buyers...." Will you do it? I thought not.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Each HoA is separate and not related to each other. A HOA is a sales tool for developers. They make them attractive so people buy in. But hey you got all the answers. I do live in a HOA ...

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
A problem is government says there must be an HOA if there is a common area. HOA requires a board of directors. But directors need not be qualified to manage an HOA, he/she only has to be a member of the association. We lived in another HOA several years ago - with many more members and many amenities - it ran like clockwork - never a single problem. Opposite is our current HOA that just can't handle simple obligations.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
No the government does not say that. That is not how it works. The developers decide to make it an HOA when building. They have common areas built in their development. Why would the government care?

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
California law says that.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The California government says if you have common area then must have a HOA? I suspect something is lost in translation there. I think the Developers develop and build a neighborhood first. They decide to make it an HOA and file the incorporation. Documents with the state. When they incorporate as a HOA with common property then they stay a HOA.

There is no reason why a developer can decide not to form a HOA. However they lose their corporate protections. Plus the owners could never collect dues to maintain common area if not incorporated.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/C/CID-Defined
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/04/2023 6:33 AM
No the government does not say that. That is not how it works. The developers decide to make it an HOA when building. They have common areas built in their development. Why would the government care?

Many states, including Alabama, have such laws. The law defines which communities are subject to the HOA law, and one of the typical requirements is that a community has common area to maintain (and needs assessments to do so).

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