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DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
We are "members" of a Not for Profit Corp that manages communal properties held in title as prescribed in the articles of inc (AOI). There is no recorded declaration or covenant because the subdivision was developed over an 8 year period almost 100 years ago. The IRS form 1120-h is titled homeowner association that includes timeshares, condos and "residential real estate associations". This is the closet category of the subdivision for IRS filing to not pay taxes on members assessments collected each year. The concern is that a recent rewrite of the bylaws changed the term "corporation' to "homeowner association" that says developed as an HOA. The other issue are or the appearance of "board" oversteps to regulate subjects that are regulated by either local or state ordinances and laws. The AOI document was recently discovered that prescribes that property "held in title" and to manage the same. The core issue is the finding of the document that dates back 52 years with possibly 1 or 2 prior corps tasked with the same language. The board is comprised of 25 members of 113 residences. Little is shared amongst 25 board members from a small circle that essentially run the organization and certainly not shared with the entire membership. The organization now referred to HOA is run more like a private corporation. Board meetings are never disclosed to the general membership and requests to attend are met with disdain and the requirement of an invitation to state your concern and then you have to leave. The state does not have an open meetings act and HOAs are not regulated in the state similarly to other states. Should the AOI be distributed to all members of the not for Profit so that they understand the limits of board authority? Even a board slate process and very limited ability to "run" for a board position, how would anyone suggest to turn this tides that all members are fully informed of what we own in terns of private real estate not attached by a HOA declaration/covenants? I do not serve the board and will not run unless there is an overtake of those dug in all circle that has been in positions for decades. The board slate is coveted and essentially is an appointment when presented at a general meeting. Any suggestions? Would love to hear any comments. Thank you
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/01/2023 6:19 AM
We are "members" of a Not for Profit Corp that manages communal properties held in title as prescribed in the articles of inc (AOI).
-- DavidB57I read your entire post. The very first sentence is where I think the key to unraveling the legal structure of this association lies.

-- You say "communal properties" exist. You are saying that the 113 owners have some kind of lawful ownership interest in these properties, correct? I would expect more than the AOI documents this ownership interest. In my opinion you want to search the county records for plats and deeds that state who owns these "communal properties."

-- Is any corporation pertaining to this association currently registered with the Michigan Secretary of State? See https://cofs.lara.state.mi.us/SearchApi/Search/Search? If so, then the corporation is subject to Michigan's Nonprofit Corporation Act.

-- If per chance the corporation has been "dissolved," please understand that this does not terminate the corporation's ownership of these communal properties. Nor does "dissolved" mean the corporation no longer exists. Nor does "dissolved" mean the corporation is no longer subject to the state's corporate statutes. Au contraire. On this point, do not let anyone (including non-specialized attorneys) tell you different.

-- The "winding up" of a "dissolved" corporation's affairs is a long-recognized process that can occur over decades. "Dissolved" and "winding up" are corporate, legal terms of art with many implications. A corporation continues to exist even when it is in a "dissolved" status. Again, "dissolved" is different from "does not exist."

-- I am not an attorney. My goal is to help you prepare for a meeting with an attorney or possibly help you to persuade your neighbors of some enormous risks the corporation is taking by, say, not having insurance.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/01/2023 6:19 AM
The concern is that a recent rewrite of the bylaws changed the term "corporation' to "homeowner association" that says developed as an HOA. ... The AOI document was recently discovered that prescribes that property "held in title" and to manage the same.
-- What, if anything, do the AOI say about amending the AOI?

-- What, if anything, do the AOI say about amending the Bylaws?

-- What, if anything, do the AOI say about conflicts between the two documents?

-- It's almost guaranteed that either Michigan statutes; Michigan case law; the AOI; or the Bylaws state that, when a genuine conflict exists between the AOI and the Bylaws, the AOI control.

-- In other words, the yokels who amended (or pretended to amend) the bylaws cannot terminate the corporation simply by changing the Bylaws.
DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Thank you for taking the time to respond. The NFP is not dissolved, it is up to date per the LARA recur findings. Lot property owners only with a finished residence may have some "grandfather" rule associated to communal property access. They/we must pay dues. No complaint there. The property that is held in title by the MI NFP Corp is a road end at the water's bluff (about 4-5 stories height) with an elevator and stairs down to a beach(s). Also, a Rec Bldg of kid programs and a rec field with a playground. Each of the 3 subdivisions has a "beach." There is no question the MI Corp holds title to this community communal property land the road end that was vacated by the township many years ago because the township did not want the expense of maintaining the stairs. The elevator, the only one of its kind in the sate of MI was constructed in 1955, is "grandfathered". Its a cage and is like an amusement ride, 60 seconds to get to the bottom. As long as a company agrees to maintain it, it operates occasionally, lol. The issue is bylaw description. Please note, a LAWYER very familiar with MI corp structure changed the wording in the NFP bylaws from "corporation" established in 1925 to "homeowner association" established in 1925. This was done so in 2013 and finalized in 2015 by only those present at a general meeting (quorum is 25% of homeowners) Remember, we have a 25 member board so there is 90% f the quorum if they all show up. I have no interest in a court action to have a judge determine what wording is appropriate. Please note, there is no declaration/covenants connecting the Lots or finished residences to the communal property. I am informed by 2 Lawfirms the "association" is voluntary. There is the negative reciprocal servitude if you've ever heard of this- I'm not a lawyer. There have been a few through the years who have not paid dues to maintain the common areas. Thats when the neg servitude came to light. What prompted much of this is the bylaw wording change not to mention a board meeting with discussion to implement construction rules (prohibtion of basements and building height and perhaps percentage of Lot size)- the Township has ordinances that govern of either new or renovations of 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years old mold infested residences multi along time ago. There is NO authority of the NFP (and the board) that holds title to communal property shared by the Lot owners who have residences who pay for the property. You can't buy a Lot and then have access to the beach and pay dues to do so. The bylaws of the NFP designate such structure. Most people (the public) can't digest the depth of this subject; they simply want to eat some ice cream and go to the beach. The recent discovery of the articles of incorporation are specific- to hold title and manage it for the comfort of the community. There is no recording of any HOA period. I'm not sure who to present such findings. The last commination with the Executive Director to post the AOI to the document section was a "no". My guess is "they" don't want anyone to read what is prescribed that gives the board only authority over the community property, NOT private residences and conduct within private residences. Lastly, short term renting is part of the discovery of all of this. The Township allows it, has ordinances, etc. but the community attempts to further control private conduct when communal property is not included for access to those guests. cluster*%&#, any more thoughts or avenues to pursue? Thank you!
DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Thank you very much for responding. The AOI is very brief, one simple paragraph. No language about amending bylaws or the AOI. This may fall under state laws of MI corp. The bylaws are not necessarily in conflict but they might be. This would take another round of legal exploration and personal expense. Very good point of view concerning a conflict, thank you! The corp is not terminated, it is in good standing. The executive director does not know who the registered agent is and apparently thinks we don't have one when the MI Corp Act mandates such a requirement. I requested the registered agent because the MI corp act mandates that record retrieval is to include the registered agent of the corp. There is one amendment filed by the then lawyer, but the Exe Director said there is no amendment. All the amendment says (or is added) are the specific 3 subdivisions NAMED that are already referenced by plat name in the AOI. The purpose has not been altered. The other board executive (Recording Secretary) would be responsible for retrieval of "proceedings" of the corp. The Exe Director thinks that position prescribed in bylaws only includes minutes. The madness for clarity is madness. This is over 30 years of asking the wording people questions. The corporation is not terminated. Full stem ahead with blackened out windows, we don't see where we are going. Any other thoughts on how to end this HOA naming based on a tax filing when no recordings of party are discoverable?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/01/2023 6:19 AM
Should the AOI be distributed to all members of the not for Profit so that they understand the limits of board authority? Even a board slate process and very limited ability to "run" for a board position, how would anyone suggest to turn this tides that all members are fully informed of what we own in terns of private real estate not attached by a HOA declaration/covenants?
-- I do not understand what all the quarreling is about with regard to HOA vs. corporation.

-- Fact: This corporation, that owns certain property, is subject to the Michigan Nonprofit Corporation Act.

-- Fact: All members of the corporation (with "member" defined either in the AOI or the bylaws) have specific rights under the Act.

-- Fact: The articles of incorporation are supposed to be on file with the Michigan Secretary of State, corporations yada division. I do not care about LARA. Pay attention to the responsibilities of the Michigan Secretary of State here.

-- Fact: Any member of the public may request a copy of the AOI from the Michigan Secretary of State.

-- In my opinion, the AOI are official records of the corporation, and hence members of the corporation have the right to inspect them via making a request pursuant to the Michigan Nonprofit Corporation statute section 450.2487

-- Fact: The statute describes how a member can go to court when records properly requested by the member are not provided within five business days.

-- I advise you to start reading the aforementioned statute and highlight sections of interest. The statute is what you use to get properly run elections, records, minutes of board meetings, and more.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
For a copy of the Michigan Nonprofit Corp statute, see:

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-Act-162-of-1982.pdf
DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Thank you for your response. I agree the hoopla of HOA vs corporation is odd. There are some who FUME over this description HOA vs corporation. What is very odd is that the lawyer for the board/corporation at the time (apparently) recommended to change corp to HOA based on tax filing. I'd like to see that communication. There are many owners who don't like the HOA label because it is not only new relatively new, not to mention "why" the description change was instituted? As we all know, HOAs have unrelenting powers over private residential property including whatever amenities or communal properties that may be included in the declaration/covenant filed with the county. The NFP as we know is filed to the state. So why would an corp attorney change the description of corporation wording to HOA in the bylaw? It is belief for those who pay attention that the various boards are attempting to create an atmosphere of CONTROL that exceeds the authority provided by the AOI. The AOI essentially prescribes language to hold title to communal properties and manage it. Thats it, no private residence control, i.e how high bushes may be, what color flowers may be planted, how many cars can be parked, etc. The roads of access are all public. The Lots in which residences are constructed are private. There is a clear delineation of what this corporate board has authority but few understand the blurred line that bylaw article 1 reads "a homeowner association established in 1925". This would be no different than saying a gas powered vehicle produced in 1873. The statement of fact (description) is odd and why was it changed after 46 years of the first establish subdivision of 3 in 1925 that comprise the plat of survey? It's about control. As for the election process, it's impossible to"run" for the slate because the board members are essentially cherry picked. There is no ballot unless someone from the floor is nominated and also, you CAN NOT nominate yourself. Hardly democratic. How does a board (actually its the circle 6 that run the show) get overturned? The rest of the board members, most of the 19 simply go along to get along. I have reviewed some statutes in the Corp Act. Are board slates permissible in NFPs?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
DavidB57, I think you and I are just about on the same page. My concern (maybe like yours) is that the bylaws may have been (unlawfully) amended so that suddenly the subdivision has restrictions on the use and appearance of homes and lots (e.g. like you said: Height of bushes; types of flowers; parking).

I think you get it, but just to be clear: The courts would never accept amending the bylaws to create restrictions on the use of the home and lot, unless maybe there were a 100% vote. The courts say amendments have to pass a "reasonable" test. This HOA has no declaration nor as far as you know any covenants. You are right to home in on the Articles of Incorporation. The AOI and the nonprofit corporation statute, with maybe a bit of case law, are the legal structure and the mission of the HOA. Call it HOA; call it "association"; call it "corporation"; it does not matter to me. The AOI, statute and bylaws control.

Has the board in recent years added amendments to the bylaws that are, by nature, really (attempted) covenants on the use of land and homes?

I wonder if the AOI and Bylaws meet the requirements of the Mi Nonprofit Corporation statute. It's worth reading through the statute quickly and highlighting parts that seem relevant.

And again, anyone trying to be cute who says, "Well our AOI do not meet the requirements of the NFP Corp statute. Hence the corporation does not exist!" Wrong. For one thing, as long as the association owns land, there is a corporation, and it is the one registered with Michigan.

You asked about board slates. Do you mean is it permissible for a group of owners to run together, such that owners have to vote for the entire group or none of the group? I say no. But nothing says the group cannot run on the same platform and urge owners to vote only for the candidates in the group.

The NFP corp statute has certain board election requirements. You want to start holding the incumbent directors' feet to the fire and making them comply with the law. That is, if you can stand the very likely retaliation that will follow. Give an all-volunteer board an attorney that others are paid for, and they often go out of control, with ego-driven wrath.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 12/02/2023 11:57 AM
Give an all-volunteer board an attorney that others are paid for,
Post-o. I mean "are paying for."
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
David

Please learn to us paragraphs.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, puleeeeeze use paragraphs. More of us might actually read your writing if you can manage paragraphs.
DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
So well stated, thank you. Paragraphs it is- I was afraid to hit return thinking the message would transmit premature.

You can imagine that I have already been the recipient of backlash because I have been asking questions for 30 plus years. Although many are very supportive neighbors who understand why these questions must be asked. To be clear, I have no interest of any court action because it becomes a (financial) rabbit hole. I have spent personal funds on a lawfirm/attorney who provided a very comprehensive explanation to answer some questions. That took 11 months to receive. I have not and will not share that opinion publicly, unless I have to. The engrained circle 6 of the board as they are sometimes referred to, seem to do a fine job managing the physical community property of which that duty is prescribed in the AOI.

Fyi: here is the language of the AOI: "To bring about, install improvements and others maintain and develop a community organization for the comfort and enjoyment of the homeowners of Mt. Pleasant Subdivision, Allegan County, Michigan to hold title to such property, both real and personal, as shall be necessary to carry out the foregoing purposes."

It's ALL the other nonsense that needs to be kicked down the road. An attempt to control new construction of $750-$1M residences compared to a 1920's, 30'3. 40' 50's style cottages that still are (barely)standing that may inhibit property values, you can imagine the jealousy. What was once a moderate group of folks forming a residential community in the 20's with moderate means has morphed to some every expensive and wealth not seen for decades. Anyone who pursues a second home even back in the 20's must have such income to do so.

I believe the goal should be to let these circle 6 know and understand that some homeowners are paying attention and to let them know that their authority is limited to the AOI. The Legal Committee prescribed in bylaws has been dormant for years. The Executive Director has opined that because something (A prescribed committee) is in the bylaws, the board is not required to follow it.

I wanted to add that a recent movement and vote, that any new (private) residence that is constructed requires a $20K buy in fee to join the NFP corporation that controls the access to the beach, a playground and Recreational Bldg for children (and meetings). This is a beach access community comprised of Lots that have always had access to the beach. Additionally, any transfer of a private residence requires a $5000 transfer fee paid to the NFP Corp by the new owner in order to join the NFP. These requirements were added to the corp bylaws. The AOI has no such membership language. No idea of this is proper or legal.

I did receive another attorney opinion (no supporting research) that even if the Association are tenants in common to the beach (in which a court order concluded), the association can never block access to the beach to Lot owners. I'm not sure I want to spend any more personal funds to have that researched.

I have no idea if the buy in fees are legal when the private residences are not recorded to the community property. I have had real estate agents tell me some HOAs have buy in fees. There was mush backlash at the time but given human nature, most "go along to get along." The buy in fees do not effect us, yet. Unless an adult child decides to build in this bizarre fercaca' subdivision.

I have purused the MI Corp Act. Most time my eyes gloss over. What is key is case law to support statutes. Otherwise they are simply words untested. As yes, the use of bylaws in lieu of covenants is an interesting point of perspective.

The latest direct request of the Executive Director is to upland the AOI document to the documents section of the community website and inform the membership of the document upload. This request is currently denied by the Executive Director (president). Clearly the circle 6 don't want members to read the document not understand what they pay dues pay for the prescribed duties of the NFP board to carry out the purpose stated in the AOI.

All that I can accomplish is transparency. What others do with the information is that they would be informed and forewarned. Then, they can acquire some ice cream and a day at the beach.

I may push for the upload request of the document to the website with a "board" explanation to the membership of what the document is and why it should be available to members who pay dues.

As for the existing board slate that has been present for decades, I am informed that some corps run elections in this manner. Given the HOA naming in bylaws, I don't know if its fair (or legal) that owners can not simply throw in their hat and resume to run for one of the 25 board positions now that the community is referred to as a "homeowner association". Not one other HOA we have belong or belonged, is operated in such a controlled manner. With the slate, the 3 -5 member committee slate committee picks the board every 2 years. Some have been on for decades. If not them, the following generation continues.

Thank you very much for your perspectives and responses!!
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Buy-in fees sometimes go directly to the HOA's reserve fund. I do not think this is a bad thing at all, especially in an old association where there is aged infrastructure.

I do wonder which if any of the bylaw amendments supposedly passed were done so in accordance with the requirements to amend.

Else I do not think I have anything intelligent to add except maybe a bit of personal experience.

A light bulb went on for me when you spoke of cottages built in the 1920s as second (summer?) homes, with beach access privileges. In the late 1940s my grandparents bought two such summer cottages in Michigan, like 75 yards or so from the Lake Michigan shore, in a bona fide subdivision (1940s style) on a bluff. It was dirt cheap at the time (Granddad's oft-quoted line about the summer cottage he and my grandmother bought: "You could not buy a dog house for this little.")

Now it's a kinda high-end community. One of the cottages (passed down to a subsequent generation) sold last year for something like $450,000 in an estate sale. This is a cottage that lacks heat and air conditioning. It's livable for three months of the year at most. In the winter it is accessible only via a snowmobile. It has an iffy septic tank system.

Some nearby cottages have been massively remodeled and/or enlarged.

It's a different world from the 1940s of course. The summer community of cottages and old clubhouse is now particularly serving the uber-wealthy or upper upper middle class.

An association exists for this subdivision. There are dues for road maintenance, for one. There are covenants. The few dozen owners meet once a year. I have often thought the set-up was very much like what you described: Things are not well-documented. It would take an attorney to sort out, and as you note, there is no guarantee a court would not overrule an attorney's opinion.

DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
HOA HOA HOA. This set up is not a traditional legally recorded HOA. It's a corporation that owns land- so I am informed by counsel.

I agree that buy in fees may be common in (some) HOAs when a recorded covenant describes what responsibilities are present in the prescribed language that the original developer wrote in the covenants when originally developed. What seems odd, and many neighbors agree, the (high) buy in fee was a move to limit new construction. Back to jealousy and the appearance of segregation. More like a penalty, if you will. Given the simplicity of the AOI language, most recorded HOA reserve funds are started by the first buyers. My wife and I bought our first condo from a developing company.

To start the reserve fund, each first buyer had to pay $200 to jump start the reserve fund. That's reasonable. To charge a new buyer $20 grand for new construction and also charge a transfer fee of $5K when a private residence changes hands when NONE of the private residences are attached by a declaration/covenant to community property, does NOT seem reasonable. To provide history, there use to be an elevator key fee for new buyers who bought land and built. The bluff elevator down to the beach 4-5 stories was constructed in 1955. Works sometimes, out of order often. When we first came around 35 years ago, I believe that "key fee" number was $800. Then it jumped to $1500. Then $3000. Then $10K, and now $20K.

The thinking was, "here we have this infrastructure that a new buyer gets to enjoy on the backs of the predecessor property owners who were present heretofore. Somehow, this seems odd. Its like saying a new born baby must pay society a feee because the predecessors created such a wonderful living environment they are born into. OK, maybe a not a good example. I don't mean to be flippant. I don't get $20K. The $1500 contribution to the elevator reserve fund seemed reasonable. OK $3K. But $10K and $20K. Why not a $100K. The undeveloped Lot owners will suffer because they would be burdened with the discounted selling price for the buy in- this is what is happening. The new buyer tells the seller, no. If you want to buy the land or the house, reduce the purchase price by the $5K or $20k depending if its a transfer or a newly constructed residence. The Association is essentially hurting the current property owners of either finished dwellings or land owners.

If we were to further compare MI bluff property close by the lake, there are numerous old subdivisions developed way back that are not HOAs (recorded HOAs that have no covenants). They are all over the state of MI. They are, according to lawyers, voluntary communities. It's your choice to participate in their amenities and their fees to do so. We learned of the legal term negative reciprocol servitude because an owner bought and fought the right to not join the club nor use the amenities. He filed the settlement agreement to his deed. That settlement agreement is popping up on other deed searches. However, there is some belief that communities such as this are mandatory. It would take $100K, a court and a judge to rule. Personally, I would never not consider paying dues and being a member to access the beach. THAT is the value of the residence, to access the beach close by.

Btw, the roads in the community are public,. The community had the opportunity way back to have the roads vacated to the association, possibly to the corp prior of the current corporation established in 1971. The confusion that exists amongst property owners is not necessary. Why is transparency perceived as a burden when it should be perceived as a right? Not my quote, a neighbor's.

And lastly, we have no recorded covenant that prescribes anything remotely close to a homeowner association. There are 4 paragraphs from the original developer. 1. Who can buy lots, (would never pass the litmus test today), 2. how close the residences can be to the road, and 3. that the Lots are to be used for residences only. (no 711's, no car washes, lol). I forget the 4th at the moment. Yes, moldy smelly cottages are selling close to $400K that were originally built for way less than $40K.

Requirements to amend: the quorum for general mtg is 35% of the community of 113. The board is comprised of 25 members. Do the math and see that is if all 25 show up at a general mtg to discuss and vote on a bylaw amendment, it does not take much to pass amendments or any vote because of the structure of numbers. Not to mention that non-board members are not allowed to attend board of director meetings. Nor are board of director meetings ever noticed to the general membership. Shall I go on?

All we want is transparency. To understand the limits of the board authority. For all to have a copy of the AOI that we all pay dues to. And perhaps have a reasonable quorum and a board that is not essentially a congress. Thats it.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Just exchanging thoughts here.
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
HOA HOA HOA. This set up is not a traditional legally recorded HOA.
The way I would put it is: It's Michigan. Michigan has no HOA statute. Michingan has only the NFP corp statute. Hence the only legal meaning of "HOA" in Michigan is that given by the NFP corp statute, the bylaws (to the extent each bylaw is lawful), and case law.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H It's a corporation that owns land- so I am informed by counsel.
Yes, and this is not unusual in many states.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H To start the reserve fund, each first buyer had to pay $200 to jump start the reserve fund. That's reasonable.
It's reasonable only if the reserve study says this amount is reasonable.

This was not a guessing game. It is financial math.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H To charge a new buyer $20 grand for new construction and also charge a transfer fee of $5K when a private residence changes hands when NONE of the private residences are attached by a declaration/covenant to community property, does NOT seem reasonable. To provide history, there use to be an elevator key fee for new buyers who bought land and built. The bluff elevator down to the beach 4-5 stories was constructed in 1955. Works sometimes, out of order often. When we first came around 35 years ago, I believe that "key fee" number was $800. Then it jumped to $1500. Then $3000. Then $10K, and now $20K.

The thinking was, "here we have this infrastructure that a new buyer gets to enjoy on the backs of the predecessor property owners who were present heretofore. Somehow, this seems odd. Its like saying a new born baby must pay society a feee because the predecessors created such a wonderful living environment they are born into. OK, maybe a not a good example.
I presume the bylaws were amended to authorize this capital contribution fee.

I simply do not see anything illegal with this fee.

In my opinion the only thing you should care about is illegalities. Why? Because complaining about anything else is whining possibly coupled with not understanding that you can in fact go pound the pavement and see if you have enough owners to change the makeup of the board meaningfully. If you do not have enough owners to do so, then oh well. You're stuck with pursuing correction of any illegalities with demand letters, an attorney and/or possibly court.

Incidentally, rarely do I begrudge anyone for going to court over bona fide disputes with a HOA. These associations are run by amateurs who are often clueless, not knowing a covenant from a statute section. The amateurs often make things up as they go along. Why? Because reading the covenants and statute sections is serious work. As volunteers, it is hard to blame them.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H I don't mean to be flippant. I don't get $20K. The $1500 contribution to the elevator reserve fund seemed reasonable. OK $3K. But $10K and $20K. Why not a $100K. The undeveloped Lot owners will suffer because they would be burdened with the discounted selling price for the buy in- this is what is happening. The new buyer tells the seller, no. If you want to buy the land or the house, reduce the purchase price by the $5K or $20k depending if its a transfer or a newly constructed residence. The Association is essentially hurting the current property owners of either finished dwellings or land owners.
I do not understand. Who is not being hurt?

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
HWhy is transparency perceived as a burden when it should be perceived as a right? Not my quote, a neighbor's.
And here's my quote right back at the neighbor:

Sir or Ma'am, the courts say all this (the bylaws, the AOI, what the association owns) was disclosed to you when you bought, one way or another. If you did not like what these documents said, then you should not have bought here.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H Requirements to amend: the quorum for general mtg is 35% of the community of 113. The board is comprised of 25 members. Do the math and see that is if all 25 show up at a general mtg to discuss and vote on a bylaw amendment, it does not take much to pass amendments or any vote because of the structure of numbers.
You still have not stated the requirements to amend the bylaws. Once quorum is met, is it a simple majority vote?

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H Not to mention that non-board members are not allowed to attend board of director meetings. Nor are board of director meetings ever noticed to the general membership. Shall I go on?
You can go on and on about all these things and I would say to many of them: How does this break the law?

Fact: In Michigan, board meetings closed to owners and held without notice is lawful.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H All we want is transparency. To understand the limits of the board authority. For all to have a copy of the AOI that we all pay dues to. And perhaps have a reasonable quorum and a board that is not essentially a congress. Thats it.
Then read the statutes and start sending demand letters asking the board to comply with xyz in the NFP corp statute.

If you want to change the quorum number via an amendment, then pound the pavement and ask owners to vote. It is one of several important rights.

About your position that the HOA should provide the AOI: Show me the bylaw or statute section or AOI section that requires this. It does not exist, does it?

To make up ethical "requirements" and try to impose them is itself not ethical.

Did you know that you have a right to inspect and copy the list of members of the corporation, including their addresses? Do you know why in every single state this right exists? It's so people like you can write their fellow owners and make them aware of xyz, potentially causing the recipient to vote a certain way. If you want all owners to have a copy of the AOI and understand the structure of the association, write them.

I think you need to spend less time talking about how the association should be legally structured and instead focus on how it is actually legally structured.

Keep reading here, and time and again, this is what most of us pound on again and again: Understand the legal structure of the HOA. Where the HOA is violating bylaws, the AOI, the covenants or state statutes, then pursue correction.
DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Well stated and thank you. Very grounding. I am aware that in MI there are no HOA requirements. And yes, in MI with no open meetings act, board meetings can be private/closed. However, in real HOAs if this one is real, transparency is key in residential communities.

There are no secrets )other than litigation and past due members) because all who pay dues have the same financial interest as anyone else- including board members. And yes, volunteer board members when hauled into court can face personal severe financial consequences for breaches especially when a subject is not within the purview of the AOI. Btw, the NFP corp is formed on a membership basis. This means members HAVE voting rights. A directorship basis NFP corporation, members have no voting rights if members exist.

Several years ago, proxies were eliminated because one owner showed up twice with numerous proxies and abused the proxy use. He ran the meeting. Rather than regulate proxies, they eliminated proxies. Most don't live in MI, owners are all over the country. We are trying to have the zoom participation available for every general mtg. There is much resistance from the board circle 6. Maybe this will change if enough speak out and ask for Zoom participation.

This is the point of much of the frustration amongst the owners who pay attention. What exactly is the community and why are some features run the way that it is?

As a homeowner, not elected, it is not my responsibility go mail or post the AOI. This is the responsibility of the elected volunteer Executive Director. The membership list is readily available. Perhaps I should reconsider, not sure I desire such repercussion.

All I am asking, is to post the AOI that no one seems to know exists. And then let the cards fall as they may.

This at the only key document that explains what the community is and what the powers of the board formed to mange the NFP Corp are suppose to be.

Yes, it seems they make it up but they constantly contact the associations's Lawfirm. There is some belief that a Lawfirm counsels with the thought of who will spend the $ to object. And if they do, the Lawfirm gets extra billing hours paid for from Association funds. It appears a no wind situation.

Some say sell. Our family is engrained for over 3 decades. We can not replace the real estate for equivalent or even close to equivalent monies.

I'll end that mysteriously in minutes several months back, one sentence reads "we are reminded that we are formed to manage communal property". This was one sentence in board discussion of an attempt to engage to regulate and limit the size of new construction. So someone in the background, assuming counsel? added such guidance. For some miraculous reasons that counsel or comment was not edited out. The township governs such building regulations.

Thank you so much for your responses and perspectives. it surely is helpful.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 5:16 PM
Well stated and thank you. Very grounding. I am aware that in MI there are no HOA requirements. And yes, in MI with no open meetings act, board meetings can be private/closed. However, in real HOAs if this one is real, transparency is key in residential communities.
I think transparency including open board meetings can certainly help a director win election.
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 5:16 PM
There are no secrets )other than litigation and past due members) because all who pay dues have the same financial interest as anyone else- including board members. And yes, volunteer board members when hauled into court can face personal severe financial consequences for breaches especially when a subject is not within the purview of the AOI.
In my experience, unless a director committed a bona fide crime, the courts do not hold volunteer directors accountable. Why? Because judges know that people would not volunteer subsequently.

Also the federal Volunteer Protection Act provides enormous protection. So too do indemnification clauses in covenants.

Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 5:16 PM
Btw, the NFP corp is formed on a membership basis. This means members HAVE voting rights. A directorship basis NFP corporation, members have no voting rights if members exist. It's whatever the AOI says.

Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 5:16 PM
Several years ago, proxies were eliminated because one owner showed up twice with numerous proxies and abused the proxy use. He ran the meeting. Rather than regulate proxies, they eliminated proxies. Which the NFP Corp Act allows, via an amendment of the bylaws, for one.

Do not like it? Then get out the vote and restore the right to be present by proxy.

Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 5:16 PM
This is the point of much of the frustration amongst the owners who pay attention. What exactly is the community and why are some features run the way that it is?

As a homeowner, not elected, it is not my responsibility go mail or post the AOI. This is the responsibility of the elected volunteer Executive Director.
Again, no statute section, no bylaw and nothing in the AOI has such a requirement for the board or any director.

If you do not want this to be your responsibility, then you are correct that you have no such responsibility.

If people are really interested, they will do as you have done and locate a copy of the AoI using, for one, the Michigan Secretary of State's assistance.

If you do not want to mail all the owners, then some of us have found that creating a web site that posts things like the AOI and opines on the association's issues du jour can be an effective PR tool and help get out the vote. You could start an interactive blog, too. Of course the leading problem is that people will do what you are doing now and then: Complain without having a legal basis for doing so.
DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Thank you for the encouragement to create a blog. Given my dna (age and possibly labeled as luddite), I'd have to find a youngster to create it. We do have a membership directory with every email available. Please note, most neighbors do not know how or where to look for state documents. I certainly did not know where or how. This is why we rely on the volunteer BOD to provide relevant documents for review.

As for a legal basis to complain, I'm not sure one requires a legal basis to do so when living in these residential communities. I may start by sending the AOI to some neighbors who know that I have been investigating the history of the community. Given the age of the community and the families that are still present, 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations, I have always found the community a fascination because of the age/history.

While there may be no legal basis for the Executive Director to upload the AOI, clearly to not do so, is a clear indication they don't want the document read by the general membership. This speaks volumes of my core complaint; transparency. The community is run more like a private corporation rather than an Hoa or residential community that it is.

This AOI document is no different (in my opinion) than the NFP bylaws that change like the weather and are always uploaded to the community website. They use the website for notice most times, and that may not be consistent to the Corporation Act. It is unknown if any of the provisions in current bylaws are a contradiction to the simplicity of what was written in 1971. A court of law would have to make a determination. I have no interest in that cost. I have requested the bylaws and AOIs of the 2 prior corporations that were formed prior to 1971. If only for historic purposes to read what was previous written to 1971. They have in storage boxes all minutes and preceding dating back to day 1.

It is odd and the question is why; that after 42 years of the bylaws stating the term "corporation formed in 1925" changed to "homeowner association formed in 1925". An elderly neighbor resident asked "why" the name change?

Thanks again for your recommendations and perspectives. Very very helpful!

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidB57 on 12/04/2023 4:13 AM
While there may be no legal basis for the Executive Director to upload the AOI, clearly to not do so, is a clear indication they don't want the document read by the general membership. This speaks volumes of my core complaint; transparency.
This is true AFAIC.

I have long felt that one of the main missions of boards ought to be to educate (assuming the directors themselves know the basics of the legal structure of the association). And yes, I mean boards should repeat and repeat again. Or one of my favorite responses of a director or board to a question: "Show me where in the governing documents (bylaws, AOI et cetera) it says what you claim."

Hey, you know the NFP corporation act requires that the association share the Minutes of board meetings with owners (upon a proper owner's request), right?

Let me know if you want a draft of a letter to submit that dots the i's and crosses the t's for a proper, lawful records request (for the Minutes in particular).

Hopefully the board does not get cute and say something like, "The board does not keep minutes." Which is a mistake but idiot behavior by boards like the latter has been known to happen and legally deserves a whole other response.

I agree that your asking questions and making requests of the board (that have a legal basis) can lead to change.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
David

One key question:

What are the requirements to amend a bylaw?

DavidB57 (Michigan)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Hi John,
Bylaw amendment per bylaws require a 2/3rd vote of approval of owners present at a general meeting. Bylaws change like the weather.

A general meeting quorum is 25% of the homeowners (not Lot owners- meaning undeveloped Lots). Lot owners can not be not be members of the NFP and can not vote. don't (can't) pay assessments.

Given 113 finished residences, a quorum is 28.25 members. The board being 25 members who have already met at a board meeting and voted on any given amendment, most bylaw amendments pass.

Actually most of everything passes at general meetings. There have been some exceptions but not many given the skew of a giant board that is more like a congress. Roberts Rules is cited in bylaws. A board member acts as parliamentarian. I don't know much about RR, but when one had the floor in past years, this was respected, no one interrupted.

Last few years, folks are cut off mid sentence with "point of order", myself included. The chair (Exec Officer/Pres) generally agrees with the parliamentarian. Attending the meetings are fraught with much frustration given the skew of numbers and the not so democratic process.

At one recent general meeting, It took 35 minutes to clarify one word of detail due to procedural RR spin around of a recent "rule" that was passed with inclusion of the one descriptive/clarifying word. The subject at hand is governed by the local Township. Not the AOI. No one brought this fact to the floor. The rule should be voluntary if the AOI does not encompass the subject. No one knows the AOI. Transparency is black gaffers tape- much like duct tape (photographic black duct tape that is, lol.

I answered more than your question.

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