Just exchanging thoughts here.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
HOA HOA HOA. This set up is not a traditional legally recorded HOA.
The way I would put it is: It's Michigan. Michigan has no HOA statute. Michingan has only the NFP corp statute. Hence the only legal meaning of "HOA" in Michigan is that given by the NFP corp statute, the bylaws (to the extent each bylaw is lawful), and case law.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H It's a corporation that owns land- so I am informed by counsel.
Yes, and this is not unusual in many states.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H To start the reserve fund, each first buyer had to pay $200 to jump start the reserve fund. That's reasonable.
It's reasonable only if the reserve study says this amount is reasonable.
This was not a guessing game. It is financial math.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H To charge a new buyer $20 grand for new construction and also charge a transfer fee of $5K when a private residence changes hands when NONE of the private residences are attached by a declaration/covenant to community property, does NOT seem reasonable. To provide history, there use to be an elevator key fee for new buyers who bought land and built. The bluff elevator down to the beach 4-5 stories was constructed in 1955. Works sometimes, out of order often. When we first came around 35 years ago, I believe that "key fee" number was $800. Then it jumped to $1500. Then $3000. Then $10K, and now $20K.
The thinking was, "here we have this infrastructure that a new buyer gets to enjoy on the backs of the predecessor property owners who were present heretofore. Somehow, this seems odd. Its like saying a new born baby must pay society a feee because the predecessors created such a wonderful living environment they are born into. OK, maybe a not a good example.
I presume the bylaws were amended to authorize this capital contribution fee.
I simply do not see anything illegal with this fee.
In my opinion the only thing you should care about is illegalities. Why? Because complaining about anything else is whining possibly coupled with not understanding that you can in fact go pound the pavement and see if you have enough owners to change the makeup of the board meaningfully. If you do not have enough owners to do so, then oh well. You're stuck with pursuing correction of any illegalities with demand letters, an attorney and/or possibly court.
Incidentally, rarely do I begrudge anyone for going to court over bona fide disputes with a HOA. These associations are run by amateurs who are often clueless, not knowing a covenant from a statute section. The amateurs often make things up as they go along. Why? Because reading the covenants and statute sections is serious work. As volunteers, it is hard to blame them.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H I don't mean to be flippant. I don't get $20K. The $1500 contribution to the elevator reserve fund seemed reasonable. OK $3K. But $10K and $20K. Why not a $100K. The undeveloped Lot owners will suffer because they would be burdened with the discounted selling price for the buy in- this is what is happening. The new buyer tells the seller, no. If you want to buy the land or the house, reduce the purchase price by the $5K or $20k depending if its a transfer or a newly constructed residence. The Association is essentially hurting the current property owners of either finished dwellings or land owners.
I do not understand. Who is not being hurt?
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
HWhy is transparency perceived as a burden when it should be perceived as a right? Not my quote, a neighbor's.
And here's my quote right back at the neighbor:
Sir or Ma'am, the courts say all this (the bylaws, the AOI, what the association owns) was disclosed to you when you bought, one way or another. If you did not like what these documents said, then you should not have bought here.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H Requirements to amend: the quorum for general mtg is 35% of the community of 113. The board is comprised of 25 members. Do the math and see that is if all 25 show up at a general mtg to discuss and vote on a bylaw amendment, it does not take much to pass amendments or any vote because of the structure of numbers.
You still have not stated the requirements to amend the bylaws. Once quorum is met, is it a simple majority vote?
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H Not to mention that non-board members are not allowed to attend board of director meetings. Nor are board of director meetings ever noticed to the general membership. Shall I go on?
You can go on and on about all these things and I would say to many of them: How does this break the law?
Fact: In Michigan, board meetings closed to owners and held without notice is lawful.
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Posted By DavidB57 on 12/03/2023 4:05 PM
H All we want is transparency. To understand the limits of the board authority. For all to have a copy of the AOI that we all pay dues to. And perhaps have a reasonable quorum and a board that is not essentially a congress. Thats it.
Then read the statutes and start sending demand letters asking the board to comply with xyz in the NFP corp statute.
If you want to change the quorum number via an amendment, then pound the pavement and ask owners to vote. It is one of several important rights.
About your position that the HOA should provide the AOI: Show me the bylaw or statute section or AOI section that requires this. It does not exist, does it?
To make up ethical "requirements" and try to impose them is itself not ethical.
Did you know that you have a right to inspect and copy the list of members of the corporation, including their addresses? Do you know why in every single state this right exists? It's so people like you can write their fellow owners and make them aware of xyz, potentially causing the recipient to vote a certain way. If you want all owners to have a copy of the AOI and understand the structure of the association, write them.
I think you need to spend less time talking about how the association
should be legally structured and instead focus on how it is actually legally structured.
Keep reading here, and time and again, this is what most of us pound on again and again: Understand the legal structure of the HOA. Where the HOA is violating bylaws, the AOI, the covenants or state statutes, then pursue correction.