Argh. Everytime that I try to get out, they drag me back in.

I agree.

In my opinion the citation is everywhere the covenants and the bylaws say the board makes decisions about xyz. The board consists of you and the other directors. The board is not the other directors by themselves.

I would consider threatening to take them to Justice Court for the violations of TPC 209 listed above, per TPC 209;

Sec. 209.017. JUSTICE COURT JURISDICTION. An owner of property in a subdivision may bring an action for a violation of this chapter against the property owners' association of the subdivision in the justice court of a precinct in which all or part of the subdivision is located.

If they do not re-do the vote in open meeting with you present, seriously consider Justice Court.

At the open meeting, I would not use the name of the owner who assaulted you.

They can’t recuse yourself for you. It seems it could only be a conflict of interest if you were imposing the fine not removing it.

By the by, our attorney has said that a conflict of interest comes into play only if you benefit materially from the decision. The entertainment you may get from fining a pain-in-the-butt owner is not a material benefit, satisfying as it may be.

My ex used to make me so angry because he would go play golf during the work day. Mind you he was the head engineer of the department. All decisions went through him for the most part. The thought of the boss just playing golf while there is a work issues angered me.

Once I realized what he was doing, I now take this approach. If I can not walk away from my job for 1 day or hour, then I am not doing the job right. I should be able to "play golf" and the world not fall apart. A strong team should be enabled to resolve their own issues. Does not mean I am not needed for decisions etc... it just means I can walk away without being a cog in the wheel. It is a test of micromanaging versus enabling.

One more thing, only slightly related: I’m seeing some of our conversations here appear in search engine results. Is this a new thing, or I’ve just never noticed it before?

Bill

Terri - you took the words right out of my mouth. "welcome to the club".

It's hard to think that your 'neighbors', aka board member,s can actually be 'evil' and do what they want, flouting the laws, etc, - but it's time to wake up...

It's funny you mention that; I do wonder if there's some money-related aspect of this. My neighborhood is in good financial shape. I'm not sure how that would work, given that we've got a PMC that holds the money, but - I do wonder.

Re search engine results *sigh* At some point I may need to look into reincarnation.

Bill

Practice saying "Nice story. Hope you go report that to the HOA... Here is their contact information and when we have meetings. Have a nice day!"

Ask yourself if you really want the job still.

A fine point. I have no illusions: they’ll vote to un-President me as soon as they can.

However, I intend to get a few words in before they do the deed. Something like Eisenhower’s warning about the military-industrial complex.

Oh, so you know: the attorney agreed with many of you here that it was not kosher to spring the Motion To Remove An Officer by surprise, and it needed to be on the agenda.

The other thing that I’m grateful for is that (I’m hoping) they won’t feel so smug about pushing me around.

I’m wondering if I should try to make a case for mandatory training for all Board members, so we can avoid these kinds of embarrassing missteps.

No-one from the Board has yet responded. *fingers crossed* I’m not going to get my hopes up too high. But I’ll sleep well tonight.

Bill

I'd composed some advice based on the earlier part of your post BillD. It was my usual: Resign Today! It's a waste of your funds & mental health to pursue legal remedies. Get your required Adrenalin rush some other way. I also do not think you should write a special report to all owners with your story.

But I do like your idea of personally inviting all members to attend and comment during open forum. Your HOA is 600 homes? 1,000? sorry, can't recall. How many hours notice out be given to owners of open meetings? They all attend by Zoom. Correct?

Now, however, I can see some fun ahead that won't drag on & on nor cost you or your HOA neighbors a dime. This adrenalin train can run a little further. (It'd have been better, at least for me, if this latest news were on a new thread.)
I've been skeptical of your PM's "expertise" for awhile and have told you that. This wording from your PM "I have confirmed with {our attorney} on 2 items that will need to be addressed through an Open Special Meeting." This is poor grammar and softens something important Instead it should have plainly said: "Our attorney states that 2 items must be addressed in an open meeting."

Bill, if ANY consultation done between the PM and the attorney was in writing, demand a copy of the email, etc. for you & all directors. These might need to be discussed, if at all, in executive session

THEN, the PM writes: - "The voting removing Bill as President of the Board." Is "The procedure" to remove Bill the correct wording instead? "voting" is the wrong word.

"The vote to remove the violation/fine for {landlord}...." Is "procedure" to remove the fine the correct wording instead?

Not sure your conclusion that you're still president is correct, but let's say it is.

1. Insist to the PM on "assisting" with the wording on the agenda for this open special meeting of the Board. The advice or opinion of the attorney must be available for all directors. Assuming the attorney cited TX codes or your Bylaws It provides background material for each agenda item to the board a few days before the meeting. His and similar background materials should be included in a "directors report"

2.Minutes were taken to remove you as prez. These minutes must be included on the agenda for Board approval at this upcoming meeting. And the online "meeting" (was there even a quorum?") must always be summed up at the next meeting, so have the PM make sure the "notetaker" at that so-called meeting provide such a written summary including who "attended" and the exact words of the motion for your records.

3.* While still guessing, the attorney may have pointed our the illegal board actions to fire you as prez. The agenda item will say. Rescind the xxx, 2023 Board decision to remove Bill D. as Board president due to its absence on the noticed agenda. (Your directors report will include the TX code and your own Bylaws citation, if relevant.)

4.* Another agenda item: "Rescind the board's action without meeting on xx/xx/xxx to remove a fine due to improper notice to Board members of the meeting. Btw, if the owner's name/addy are mentioned, why couldn't this be in an open meeting???

5. Agenda Item: Discussion of required methods to appoint and remove officers. In your directors report, your Bylaws and state code will be cited to simply follow.

6. do note that if you really have not been legally removed as president and the Board still wants to remove you, that must be on the agenda. It can be as simple as: Discussion and possible action on replacing current officers. You can "skip" this if you like. Perhaps some other director will think of it ; )

I'm sure others will have creative ideas for you. I'll repeat what I've written many times about your HOA's Board. No member seems to know anything about your governing docs or TX codes including you, tho' you've learned a touch recently. This disinterest by all is bad for your HOA, and as still a board member, it's well- being should still be on the top of your hyper-busy mind.

* is based on Robert's Rules and is the lingo used to overturn a decision made by a Board at a previous meeting. I've been experienced with it several times over the years. The Board must vote to rescind the previous decision. You or any director may make that motion.

Because notice was improper, there was no "board decision." Hence there is nothing to rescind.

The minutes for the earlier board meeting should make a note about improper notice for such-and-such topic, hence all board votes taken on this topic do not result in any board action.

And so on.

The board will figure it out.

Let’s say the attorney observes that you ARE still president, BillD. If so, you most likely have access to the attorney and can ask him/her any questions you wish. But, you must check the wording in your contract with that firm. Get a copy ASAP if not in your own file. Generally, only one board member may interact with the HOA attorney and usually that is the president UNLESS the Board votes for a different director. If only one director may contact th attorney, makes certain to direct youPM to not “pass on” any questions from the other Board members to the attorney.

Your very, very best approach would be to have the attorney attend this upcoming open meeting of the Board. If you have a retainer with this firm it’s possible that they include attenedence at or or two board meetings a year. Check the verbiage.

If minutes from the meeting where the Board voted you out of the office of President state that, then depending on the attorney’s opinion, you most definitely want to rescind that action for the record. Minutes are official records and MUST be accurate. The Board must agree on what to put in the minutes. Your current board is not able to “figure it out.”

You might ask the attorney the best way to word the point that th decision or action by the Board was not legal and so does not stand.

Note you will NOT be correcting the minutes because what they stated IS what was done.

I would not do this. BillD16 is clearly an "adverse party" to the board majority. At this point, contacting the attorney is up to the board majority. At most, BillD16 (who is still president) can ask the PM to ask the attorney xyz, cc'ing the rest of the board.

Else BillD16 risks shenanigans by the board majority, like sending BillD16 the bill for any questions BillD16 asks the HOA attorney directly.

Bill,

Quit! It's not worth your mental health to deal with them.

Also, move to Houston and be on our Board! I would love to have you!!!

I strongly disagree with this.

In my opinion, no one should be contacting the Associations attorney without board approval, as this could incur additional costs for the Association.

Even if it did not result in additional costs, I truly believe that it should take board approval before legal advise is sought by any member of the board.

It depends on the contract, gents. In addition, given the huge mess that this board has created in the past & present, it's in the best interests of the cooperation to have the attorney vet the agenda for this next meeting.

I certainly agree that, for example, if inviting the attorney to the meeting if not included in their retainer requires board approval.

Do either of you know who contacted the attorney in the first place on this topic to which the attorney did respond to th ePM? The PM? Really? Or other board members?

*This* Board … I dunno.

But thank you for the lovely language!

BillD

You are very kind!

I may very well move … but I probably won’t be looking to do anymore HOA Board work

But thank you. It’s nice to know that there are people out and about who don’t think I’m Evil Incarnate.

Bill

May I suggest bringing a copy of the HOA's documents to each meeting? No decisions have to be immediately made as it can take time to do full research etc... However, it should show that the HOA has documents/rules it is to go by and apply. Otherwise it is in some kind "Fantasyverse" people THINK it says than looking with their eyes to prove it...

Bill,

You have become somewhat of a celebrity on HOATalk. You got several different opinions and advice. In the end YOU will be in the driver's seat as to how you move forward. Good luck and try not to let the situation consume you. Take care.

To say the least, IMO. What happened at the pool with this tenant was an assault and battery AFAIC, with multiple witnesses. I would have walked away putting on my best 'tough gal' face but definitely shaking and disgusted that I have to just take it until I could talk to the board, hoa attorney and manager.

Aside: I remain proud of the manager's response. He/she gets it.

I just do not have all the facts. I am operating in part based on this:
As you know, the subject of who a lawyer represents comes up a lot here.

In past HOAs of mine the manager had carte blanche to speak with the HOA attorney on certain subjects. I presume the attorney's billing statements were sufficient documentation to ensure no abuses occurred.

I do not think it's a good idea for a president (which I maintain BillD16 still is) to try to wield the HOA attorney like a weapon. If BillD16 is asked to do something that he normally would do as president, then I think he should go ahead and do it, keeping all directors informed, and explaining that he's in a difficult position, because legally, he believes he is still president, and so he has certain fiduciary and other duties as such. Close with: "If you have concerns, perhaps an emergency, exec session board meeting with the HOA attorney would be a good idea, so we can all get on the same page."

Yes, of course, Aidyl (and Elle), IF permitted by the contract. Hmmm, is this also in the contract with the MC where the PMC's duties are listed? In such a case, there are meeting minutes that show Board approval for the PM to independently contact the GC. IMO, a Board is overly careless if at least one director doesn't sit with the PM during the conversation with the GC, or is copied on an email.

Tim & JohnC opine: "no one should be contacting the Associations attorney without board approval, as this could incur additional costs for the Association." While it depends on the contract with the law firm, this is how it's been in my HOA. But both general law firms, and our Const. Defect law firm named the president as, basically the liaison. The PM can phone them (we do have a retainer with free phone calls) so long as it's OK with the President. Some phone calls, after all end up requring an written opinion, which is when the meter starts in our contract.

I don't know between whom the contract is either, Elle, except Bill's belief that it's between the PMC & the attorney's firm. But apparently everyone else replying to this post seems to think that is a good thing for his HOA. IMO, if true (which I doubt), it would be a serious dereliction of duty by whichever Board was in office when this so-called contract was approved. And btw, by whom?

My advice, Elle, is the opposite of BillD "wielding the attorney like a weapon." I've consistently said something like this attorney can get THE BOARD back on track. S/he can fix this "dysfunctional" Board. Sure , this Board should be willing to pay for a nice 1 hour seminar put on by the GC's firm> it would soooo hugely be worth the $$. Now is the perfect time to educate the entire Board & PM.

I do know that the subject of who the attorney works s for comes up here lot, but with one exception* it's always a one vs. the Board topic. What BillD is dealing with is quite new.

Elle also wrote: "If per chance the PM is using the PM company's attorney, then hmm. I kinda like this, as long as this attorney remains on the side of statutes and covenants..." So far as I know this would be a terrible arrangement. The attorney would from time to time face a conflict of interest between what is best for his employer, the MC, and what is best for the HOA, his client.

*JamesB of CA recently had a similar quandary.

I had in mind the possibility that the MC has its own law firm representing it, and the HOA has a different law firm representing it.

As I noted, the forum simply does not have all the facts here. BillD16 may very well be confused about who the attorney represents.

Whoever this attorney is working for came down on the side of the statutes and covenants. As I indicated above, this is what I like. I am sorry you appear not to care about this.