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RussellB5 (Montana)
Posts: 23
Posted:
Our HOA forbids RVs and trailers.

We have a resident with a Mercedes Sprinter van that is also a "camper"

The essence of the covenants is to prevent big ugly RVs trailers etc.

A sprinter van is similar to a work van or even a commuter van.

How do you define an RV?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Well, let's start with how your HOA defines them. Give us the exact wording that forbid them and tell us what document it's in. Rules? Covenants (CC&Rs?)
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
By my reading:

The definition of RV is not the issue.

Nor is "the essence" or a guessed intent of the covenant the issue.

What matters is the actual words. This brings us to Thee First Issue (AFAIC):

The issue is the vagueness of the covenant prohibiting "RVs." If RV is vague and ambiguous, and a reading of the entire declaration does not clearly reveal anything else about what was intended, then the courts tend to rule that covenants like this are interpreted in favor of the owner, and against the HOA.

Thee Second Issue IMO:
Does the HOA really want to spend money to see if the court rules in its favor? Does the HOA want to get into a game of chicken with the RV owner (and vice versa), where each side spends a fortune on attorneys until one side gives up or the court rules (a few years from now)?

Your covenants were undoubtedly written before such a variety of vans, SUVs and RVs became available. Do not try to force a square peg in a round hole. Let the guy keep the van. Possibly consider amending the covenants for more clarity.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
And those Sprinter Vans are also someones everyday driver. This one may be hard to enforce. I remember reading
somewhere about a homeowner going after their HOA to keep a Mini Winne in their driveway because when the owner goes out
they need immediate access to a loo.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Per Montana code, specifically 61-1-132, the vehicle would be considered an RV.

Per that statute [emphasis added]:

61-1-132. Recreational vehicle. The term "recreational vehicle" as used in 61-4-101 through 61-4-105 and 61-10-141 includes travel trailers as defined in 61-1-131, motor homes as defined in 61-1-130, and other self-propelled vehicles originally designed or permanently altered to provide temporary facilities for recreational, travel, or camping use.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Perhaps the vehicle can fit in a garage?

I've looked the van up on the website. It does look like a regular van from the outside.
Expecting the van is yours, I would suggest you try and come to a compromise with the board and, hopefully, it's not a board member that is making this an issue.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Personally, I wouldn't have an issue with it (but I have not seen the model).
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/05/2023 2:29 AM
Per Montana code, specifically 61-1-132, the vehicle would be considered an RV.

Per that statute [emphasis added]:

61-1-132. Recreational vehicle. The term "recreational vehicle" as used in 61-4-101 through 61-4-105 and 61-10-141 includes travel trailers as defined in 61-1-131, motor homes as defined in 61-1-130, and other self-propelled vehicles originally designed or permanently altered to provide temporary facilities for recreational, travel, or camping use.

Realized the link I provided was the 1997 code.
Here is a link to the current code:

61-1-101. Definitions
The definition has changed and the previous definition has been repealed.

Per the newer statute:

(61) "Recreational vehicle" includes a motor home, travel trailer, or camper.

(39) "Mobile home" or "housetrailer" has the meaning provided in 15-24-201. see: 15-24-201. Definitions:

(85) "Travel trailer" means a vehicle:

(a) that is 46 feet or less in length;

(b) that is of a size or weight that does not require special permits when towed by a motor vehicle; and

(c) that is designed to provide temporary facilities for recreational, travel, or camping use and not used as a principal residence.

(6) (a) "Camper" means a structure designed to be mounted in the cargo area of a truck or attached to an incomplete vehicle for the purpose of providing shelter for persons. The term includes but is not limited to a cab-over, half cab-over, noncab-over, telescopic, and telescopic cab-over.

(b) The term does not include a truck canopy cover or topper.

In my opinion - the newer statute would not consider the sprinter van an RV. Therefore, unless the Association has a specific definition - THE VEHICLE WOULD BE ALLOWED AND NOT CONSIDERED AN RV
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I appreciate TimB4's work and his adding something intelligent to the discusison. But since the Montana Motor Vehicle Code expressly says the definitions apply solely to a particular title of the Code; since the OP's covenants do not say something like " ' RV ' shall be defined consistent with the current definition given in the Montana Motor Vehicle Code"; and since there might be an argument that the definition that does apply is the one in place at the time the covenants were recorded with the county; then I do not buy that the Code's definition applies. To me, a vagueness and ambiguity issue remains.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I admit I do like the reasoning (from LetA and I think maybe TimB4) that the van fails to be recreational because (1) the van's owner maybe uses it for day-to-day errands; and/or (2) the van is not a "principal residence." Uses like (1) and (2) say to me the van's purpose is not wholly "recreational." It seems to me that any director who thinks along the lines of (1) and/or (2), and so rejected the van as being a "recreational vehicle," is being reasonable.
RussellB5 (Montana)
Posts: 23
Posted:
We are currently revising our Covenants and looking to make them clearer.

Currently, they read

"All campers, trailers, motor homes, boats, and all other recreational equipment and the like shall only be parked within the building envelope. In no event shall such equipment be parked on roads, nor shall any equipment be parked such that it is visible from the streets or adjacent lots for a period exceeding three (3) days in any 30-day period."

The board received a complaint about a Sprinter van parked in a driveway claiming it is an RV and therefore cannot be permanently parked there.
It was the board's opinion that a Sprinter van is not the type of "RV" that we are trying to prohibit. From appearances, the van looks like a work van and is not unsightly.

We are looking for a better way to word this that prevents unsightly RVs and trailers and allows Sprinter Vans and perhaps small pop-top campers.
In some research, I found different classes of RV.

Class A RV Size: 26 to 45 feet
Weight: 13,000 to 30,000 pounds.
These are the motorcoach bus type

Class C RVs: A Mid-Size Option
Size: 20 to 30 feet
Weight: 10,000 to 13,000 pounds
These look like U-Haul trucks with a cab.

Class B RVs:
Size: 17 to 23 feet
Weight: 4,000 to 9,000 pounds
These are the Sprinter Van style and the type that we want to allow.

I suppose we could simply define it as non-Class B RVs that are greater than 23 feet and greater than 9,000 pounds.

It's also becoming more difficult to define "Recreational Equipment" as many new rooftop truck tent systems could make a truck into more.
eg: https://vagabondoutdoors.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Rob-Claybon.1.jpg

RussellB5 (Montana)
Posts: 23
Posted:
This may be a key to changing the verbiage.

"the van's purpose is not wholly "recreational."

This could apply to a truck with a tent topper or a Sprinter Van that is used as a commuter vehicle.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 11/05/2023 4:38 AM
I appreciate TimB4's work and his adding something intelligent to the discusison. But since the Montana Motor Vehicle Code expressly says the definitions apply solely to a particular title of the Code; since the OP's covenants do not say something like " ' RV ' shall be defined consistent with the current definition given in the Montana Motor Vehicle Code"; and since there might be an argument that the definition that does apply is the one in place at the time the covenants were recorded with the county; then I do not buy that the Code's definition applies. To me, a vagueness and ambiguity issue remains.

Certainly an argument can be made either way.
Therefore, the boards decision on the interpretation would stand until it is challenged in court.

I truthfully think attorneys (who typically write the documents and the statutes) use the language they do for the purpose of having arguments either way - a simple way to stay in business.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Russell

It is nearly impossible to define some vehicles. I expect no mater what your try it might not work in all cases thus the BOD, as it has done, will still have to make a decision. Personally I say the Sprinter, no matter how it is configured on the inside, is not an RV nor camper.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 11/06/2023 8:37 AM
Russell

It is nearly impossible to define some vehicles. I expect no mater what your try it might not work in all cases thus the BOD, as it has done, will still have to make a decision. Personally I say the Sprinter, no matter how it is configured on the inside, is not an RV nor camper.

I agree with this. A sprinter van is a van. An RV is self-propelled camper so one must apply common sense in reviewing a potential violation.

Using a Sprinter Van is an interesting "hack" for traveling.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
How are these vehicles registered in Montanna? Does Montanna DMV have any definitions?

According to the State of California:

6.055 Recreational Vehicles (H&SC §18010)
A recreational vehicle is a motorhome, housecar, travel trailer, truck camper, or camp trailer; with or without motive power; designed for human habitation or other occupancy.

Fifth-Wheel Travel Trailer (CVC §324)—A vehicle designed for recreational purposes to carry persons or property on its own structure and constructed to be drawn by a motor vehicle by means of a kingpin connecting device.

Housecar (CVC §362)—A motor vehicle originally designed for, or permanently altered, to be equipped for human habitation, or to which a camper has been permanently attached. A housecar is not a motortruck.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/vehicle-industry-registration-procedures-manual-2/

According to the IRS: (a lot of RV owners use RV's as a tax right off - 2nd home)

A recreational vehicle (RV) can be considered a primary or secondary residence for federal tax purposes if it has permanently mounted sleeping, cooking, and toilet facilities. The IRS defines a home broadly, allowing the term to encompass houses, condominiums, cooperatives, mobile homes, RVs, house trailers, and boats
RussellB5 (Montana)
Posts: 23
Posted:
There is a DMV definition
61-1-132. Recreational vehicle. The term "recreational vehicle" as used in 61-4-101 through 61-4-105 and 61-10-141 includes travel trailers as defined in 61-1-131, motor homes as defined in 61-1-130, and other self-propelled vehicles originally designed or permanently altered to provide temporary facilities for recreational, travel, or camping use.

61-1-130. Motor home. "Motor home" as used in 61-3-521 and 61-3-522 means a motor vehicle:
(1) designed to provide temporary living quarters, built as an integral part of or permanently attached to a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis or van;
(2) containing permanently installed independent life support systems that meet the ANSI/A119.2 standard; and
(3) providing at least four of the following types of facilities:
(a) cooking, refrigeration, or icebox;
(b) self-contained toilet;
(c) heating or air-conditioning, or both;
(d) potable water supply, including a faucet and sink; or
(e) separate 110-volt or 125-volt electrical power supply or a liquefied petroleum gas supply, or both.

Now in the case of the Sprinter Van, from the outside, there is no way of knowing what is inside.
Montana does not identify the type of registration on the license plate. Therefore, we as an HOA can't identify it as an RV by the state definition without seeing what is inside.

I still like the idea of what is the primary purpose of the vehicle.

RobertC43 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
The key I believe is an unambiguous definition. The vehicle could be defined by either wheelbase limitation, weight or, does the vehicle have the ability to fit within the garage structure or all of the above.
RobertC43 (Florida)
Posts: 13
Posted:
The key I believe is an unambiguous definition. The vehicle could be defined by either wheelbase limitation, weight or, does the vehicle have the ability to fit within the garage structure or all of the above.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Don't forget about all those Ford and Chevy vans with or without the high tops and Captains chairs.
Some of those had a mini wet bar with camp stove and mini fridge. Almost all had a pull out bed with electric
hookup and a TV. Those are not RV's. Some have a step ladder in the back. a step ladder don't make it an RV.

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