If not cumulative voting, then what?

I *just* realized what cumulative voting is. Our governing documents do not mention it at all, NC state law does not allow cumulative voting if the governing documents do not permit it. https://www.ncleg.gov/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bysection/chapter_55/gs_55-7-28.html

We do not vote for officers, but rather membership to the BOD which then meets immediately after the annual meeting is adjourned and votes among themselves for officers. It appears to me that cumulative voting is being used, at least in last year's election in which there were 5 candidates for 3 positions. There were 30 owners in attendance at the annual meeting and 26 proxies. Vote totals for the top three winners were 48, 48, 46 with the bottom two candidates getting single digit vote counts. HoOw does one get to cast vote totals of over 150 if there are 56 owners present? Am I right that this was a cumulative voting election?

The HOA is about to have another annual meeting with election to the BOD. There are eight candidates for four positions on the BOD. With a slate of candidates this large, how does an HOA vote for members to the board if cumulative voting is not done?

Yes, 56 units voted. What I'm reading on Wikipedia and law sites is that it s cumulative voting when the number of votes each unit is allowed to cast is equivalent to the number of open board positions. That defines cumulative voting. I've yet to read anything with restrictions limiting those votes to no more than one per candidate to specifically restrict stacking. I guess the questions are, was there a restriction stated prior to the election last year (I don't recall) and what happens if this year there is no stated restriction of one vote per candidate from each unit?

Getting up to speed on HOA issues is such a steep learning curve.

We had our Declarant change a few Bylaws before we took over and one change was to eliminated cumulative voting.

I disagree that this defines cumulative voting.

Wiki says this:

Cumulative voting is used in elections where more than one seat is filled. It permits voters to cast multiple votes, as many as the number of seats to be filled, allow[ing] each voter to put more than one vote on a preferred candidate.

All I can say is that, using the results you provided, one cannot conclude that the voting in the past election was cumulative or not cumulative. More information is needed.

I agree with what KerryL1 wrote above.

For the record: I do not consider the numbers JeanneH3 to be completely meaningless. They suggest to me that non-cumulative voting is highly likely to have occurred. But again (and also agreeing with Kerry for the most part), that non-cumulative voting occurred is not certain.

My bigger concern is that, respectfully, JeanneH3 does not understand (yet) the applied math here and how it translates to a good likelihood that cumulative voting did not occur. If cumulative voting had occurred, I would argue a very lopsided vote, among the three winners, would be more likely. A lopsided vote among the three winners did not happen.

I hear you. I hear you as well about the board using unlawful or possibly unlawful tactics. Particularly where a board is not running elections lawfully, AFAIC sometimes an attorney is warranted.

Not quite. For non-cumulative voting, the most votes any one candidate could receive is 50.

The instructions for the ballots should say as much.

If the actual physical layout and writing on the ballots allows for this possibility, then whoever prepared the ballots did a terrible job. Hence: Are you sure the ballots' layout allows for this? I am just trying to picture how a single owner with a single ballot (having all candidates' names on it, plus maybe a write-in option) could put his/her four votes (for four open board seats) towards a single candidate.

Also if there is an "elections inspector," he/she should probably throw out any ballot that indicates a unit or lot is casting more than one vote for a candidate. The ballot is "spoiled," "spoiled" being the term city/county/state officials use to disqualify a ballot.

Correct, there is a maximum of 200 votes combined cast among the eight candidates. Remember that some folks may, say, like only one candidate, and so vote for only one candidate (with one vote for the candidate per lot/unit, for non-cumulative voting).

I trust you have checked NC law on the subject of reviewing ballots (a record of the HOA) post-election.

I recall your previous postings about how awful your current Board is and its tendency to ignore your document and state statute. Big-time kudos for working with other owners to get rid of your rogue board. I know form experience that campaigning, going house to house, sending out mailers, driving hopping off flyers can be very time consuming and is har work. I hope it pays off for you & your fellow owners!

You need to find more info about voting in your type of NC HOA. My own bylaws, for instance, don't say that no invalid ballots may be counted, but we have "Election Rules," required in CA, that do say that. And so so does state statute. Somewhere your statutes also say that.

In other words, the vote tabulators must throw out any ballot that has more than one vote for a candidate, or more than the total number allowed (4). If someone votes for 5 candidates that ballot is invalid. In CA, once the tabulation is complete the head inspector of election announces the total to the assembly of owners. They must announce the total of invalid ballots, too. In our recent election, the head Inspector announced that 3 ballots were not valid. The number each candidate received must be included in the announcement.

What DO the voting instructions on the ballot and/or its cover letter say? Please cite exactly.

But..... WHO is tabulating the votes? In many states, owners may observe the tabulators counting the votes. Also In your HOA or NC?

In my opinion, if you/a member of your group wishes to, an owner at the election meeting of the members (owners) should simply raise their hand to be recognized and announce as a "reminder" that ONLY ONE vote per candidate is permitted up to a total of no more than 4 votes. This assumes many will vote AT the meeting. That is ALL the person should say.

Having served for years where we sometimes had cumulative voting and sometimes not, the very word causes confusion. The years we've done cumulative voting have been a mess of inspectors to tabulate. Many ballots have been invalid. DO NOT USE that word. DO NOT try to define it. If anyone asks, simply state we do not do cumulative voting because our state doesn't' allow it

Very good questions. The process of how votes are tabulated and by whom is secretive. Our PMC uses InfoHOA.com in ways we don't yet quite understand and I know they offer voting services. NC law says nothing about tellers or vote tabulators. CAI does offer a webinar on virtual meetings which does include 3 independent tabulators as validating election results but none of us could tell you who those tabulators were last year or who is doing it this year.

I cannot give you the voting instructions on the ballot because the voting will happen in the annual meeting, virtually, and last year those in attendance were given a link to click to commence voting. The cover letter voting instructions simply refer to access to the virtual meeting (Google Meet) will be sent by email several days before the annual meeting. We are dealing with a board and PMC that stated, twice, in the annual meeting notice last year that board election was to be held AFTER the meeting by write in ballot as had been done in the prior two years. It was done DURING the meeting (surprise!)electronically.

The 2022 Notice of Annual Meeting (see below) states that each unit has ONE vote. The board election vote totals for 117 units was 142 votes cast. If three votes per unit could be cast for three open board positions, there is nothing in the Notice that informs owners of that. The Board Nomination Form clearly states the election will occur following the meeting which is in contradiction to the Proxy Form and cover letter. The 2023 Nomination Form corrects this error.

This is the cover letter for the Notice of Annual Meeting 2022 (names redacted)

Please find enclosed the Annual Members’ Meeting package for the XXXXCondominium
Association to be held at 6:30 PM, Thursday, November 3, 2022, via Google Meet Video Conference.
(Please sign in at 6:15 PM)

A Google Meet invite will be sent via email, with instructions, prior to the meeting. Owners who wish
to join be phone will also receive instructions on how to do so with the invitation email.
The meeting package includes:
• Official Notice of Meeting
• Board of Directors Self-Nominating Form
• Proxy Form
• 2023 Budget
• Previous Annual Meeting Minutes
• Pre-addressed Return Envelope

The enclosed proxy is provided for you to appoint someone to vote in your absence, should you be
unable to attend the meeting. Option 1 on the proxy indicates John Doe, President of the Association,
as your proxy agent to vote on your behalf. Option 2 on the proxy has a blank line to write in the name
of the person you wish to vote on your behalf. Please check the appropriate box on the proxy form
(check only one box), sign, date, and indicate whether you will or will not attend the meeting; and
return it in the enclosed, pre-addressed envelope, or scan and email it to [email protected] as
soon as possible but no later than November 2, 2022. Please note that per NC State Statute, a quorum is
not required to ratify the Budget.
We request that you return your proxy as soon as possible – even if you plan to attend, but no later than
November 2, 2022. If you return your proxy and do attend the meeting, your proxy will be invalid. Each
Ocean Walk unit has one (1) vote at the Annual Members’ Meeting.

Included in the Notice of Annual Meeting 2022 was a self nominating form. Note the reference, twice, of the election being held FOLLOWING the meeting. The 2023 Self Nomination FOrm corrects this error by stating, "If you would like to nominate yourself or someone else for election to the Board of Directors, please make sure this Nomination Form is received by our office no later than the date listed above if you wish for t he nominee's name to be voted at the Annual Meeting."

SELF-NOMINATING FORM
The XXXX Condominium Association will have three (3) positions on the Board of
Directors up for election following the Annual Meeting on Thursday, November 3, 2022, any
adjournments thereof, and any substitute meeting if the Annual Meeting is cancelled.
If you are interested and willing to serve on the Board of Directors please complete the Self-
Nominating form and return it to Fake PMC. All members who return the Self-
Nominating form will be put on the ballot to be voted on following the Annual Meeting.
Nominations will also be taken from the floor at the Annual Meeting.

And this is shortened Proxy Form (names redacted). Note reference to election occurring during meeting in contradiction to Nomination FOrm:

Condominium Owners ASSOCIATION
PROXY
PART I: PROXY SOLICITED BY THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS
The undersigned hereby appoints John Doe, President, as Proxy Agent and Attorney-in-fact,
with power of substitution, to vote in the place and stead of the undersigned as a Member, at
the Annual Meeting of the Members of XXXXX Condominium Owners Association, to
be held via Google Meet Video Conference at 6:30 PM, on Thursday, November 3,
2022, any adjournments thereof, and any substitute meeting if the Annual meeting is
canceled, on the matter listed below and on such other matters as may properly come before said
meeting:

Even without the instruction about when the ballot will not be counted, I do not see how cumulative voting could occur with this ballot.

Respectfully, I advise losing the hyperbole. In my opinion it has an effect opposite to what you are seeking. If anything is epic-ly sloppy here, perhaps it is the claim that cumulative voting could occur with such a ballot.

That is not cumulative voting.

Some questions. How many members does your board have? How many of them are the bad ones? How many seats are up for election? How many candidates are on your own slate, and how many are the “bad” ones?

In this case, I am not sure what your concern is regarding cumulative voting. If the existing board members ask their supporters to use cumulative voting it would be good for the reform candidates; almost guaranteeing three seats.

Alternatively, you could encourage your supporters to cast all of their votes for two of your reform candidates in order to guarantee two seats. I think your key is to just get one or two on the board, where they can then force everything into the open.

Let's say there are 50 voters, and each casts four votes. Let's call the eight candidates I1, I2, I3, I4 (incumbents) and R1, R2, R3, R4. If the voters are evenly split between Incumbents and Reformers, in theory all eight candidates would receive 25 votes.

If supports of the Incumbents (lets call them I1, I2, I3, & I4) use cumulative voting and this causes more votes for I1 and I2 than I3 and I4, the results could be something like this:

I1 = 40
I2 = 23
I3 = 20
I4 = 17
R1 = 25
R2 = 25
R3 = 25
R4 = 25

Reformists win three seats!

Alternatively, the reformists could encourage their supporters to throw all of their votes to two specific candidates. This would result in:

I1 = 25
I2 = 25
I3 = 25
I4 = 25
R1 = 50
R2 = 50
R3 = 0
R4 = 0

Reformists win two seats.

IMO, cumulative voting is good for reformists and minorities, as it allows them to almost guarantee representation.

They do, but only with a lot of assumptions. The biggest assumptions are that (1) enough voters who favor one or more incumbents would not spread their votes evenly over the four incumbents; and (2) voters who favor reformers would spread their votes evenly over the four reformers. In my opinion there's no 'almost guaranteeing that the reform candidates take three seats.' Happy to a agree to disagree.

I noticed you informed us way above, Jeanne, that cumulative voting is not permitted in NC.

BUT, if your Bylaws permit proxies, then your HOA must allow them no matter what your neighbors do. If your Bylaws or state law doesn't' require bio, then your HOA does not have to send them

Look, we're not talking "best practices" here. We, or at least I, am trying to learn HOW your elections MUST be conducted per your Bylaws, may Articles of Incorporation & state codes.

I've lost track: When IS your 2023 annual meeting and election? Did owners receive ballots? Or are they only distributed AT the meeting?

Did you find out how vote counters or tabulators are legally selected in NC HOA or corporations code?

Because of all th non-useful verbiage in this thread, I think you should write new anew one giving us the facts as in your documents. Als the date of your annual meeting, all the writing about 2021 & 2022 confuses my overly-cluttered mind.