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LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:

So we have this one owner that lost her caca and immediately donned her cape and the keyboard warrior took to ND
basically accused the board and the PM of squandering funds and just shy of accusing us of embezzlement.
She lost it because assessments are being raised due to inflation, mainly the skyrocketing cost of natural gas and electric.

this keyboard warriors comments are very close to criminal accusations. Would it behove of us to have our corporate council
send this person a strongly worded letter , that if they continued their tirade we will take legal action against them?

My concern is this one person is going to cause problems for us and individually as a BOD.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are you sure you didn't mean "How to solve a problem like Terri instead?

You are already dealing with a passive aggressive personality type. Why are you letting them suck up your time? You are giving them exactly what they want by paying attention or responding. My advice, let them rage on. If it crosses the line where it is outside of the HOA's scope like personal threats, then take it to the law.

Just setting yourselves up for a pissing contest if you keep going back and forth with this. I told my members if they had a problem with the HOA you have 2 choices. 1. Show up at the meeting to discuss it. 2. Write a letter about the issue to be read out loud at the meeting. Either way you have to present a SOLUTION to your problem. If you don't have a solution the HOA will provide one for you. You can't solve a problem if you can't talk solutions. Can't have a conversation about problems if you can't put your finger down.

Don't waste your time and breath unless you get others saying the same thing. Then you may have an actual problem to pay attention to.

Former HOA President
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
What makes this criminal? It's one thing if she threatened to go to all the board members' homes and blow their houses up, or someone else who's even more volatile went out and threatened the property manager because of something this lady wrote. That's assuming this letter has gone all over the community - if she's just railing at you, you may not have much to worry about. Losing one's shit because assessments are going up isn't a crime - hell, that's happening just about everywhere, along with food, gas, insurance (especially that!)

Hopefully, your board has kept homeowners informed about income and expenses, and why this was a difficult but necessary decision, and if so, you may not have much to worry about. For now, make a note of what she writes (screenshots showing date and time stamps are really nice). If other people come after you, you'd have to prove it was because of this lady and then you'd have to show the behavior came to the line or crossed over into criminal territory. From there it's a police matter and reports should be filed. For the rest, a strongly worded letter for spreading damned lies is more appropriate than getting annoyed because she called you a bunch of greedy you know-whats for making things hard on senior citizens, single parents and working-class folk. Interesting how these folks forget board members have to pay the same bloody fees...

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 10/30/2023 4:01 PM
What makes this criminal?

I think he is go for per se defamation in libel. If you accuse a person of criminal act, it can be pre se defamation which needs no actual damages in order to sue for damages - in per se damages are legally assumed to have occurred. I think it would have to be more concrete than an implied. E.g. saying somewhere murdered his wife and kids and hide the bodies in the local lake would likely be defamation per se. Saying someone might have killed a stranger would not.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
wow what garble writing for me. I meant:

I think he is going for per se defamation/libel. If you accuse a person of a criminal act, it can be per se defamation which needs no actual damages in order to sue for damages - in per se damages are legally assumed to have occurred. I think it would have to be more concrete than an implication though. From what I have read, defamation is hard to prevail - it needs to be concrete accusations and bad. Basically the test is if the writing/saying harmed you - not just hurt your feelings.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Sheila, it is more of them accusing us and the PM, PMC of criminal acts. Roger, I am not even there yet but it is tap dancing close in that direction.
My concern is, will, can, if or when will this person start crying wolf. Will this pose problems for individual board members, where we will have to hire our
own council, have our personal financials subpoenaed etc?

People can be very petulant and cause trouble out of nothing, it is just the type of trouble that I personally can't afford.

Yes this person is just a complainer, never attends meetings and only takes to SM to complain, and they don't keep their complaint
to just the community, they complain to 50 plus neighborhoods, then you have all the yokels chiming in.

For example, the pool filter was failing this summer and the pool turned green. Well the filter was at it's peak use and failed, totally understandable.
Our vendor did struggle to get the filter and pumps to clear the malfunction. SO! Looking at our reserve study, the filter and pump was slated to be replaced in 2024
so we chose to replace them now rather than later.

Someone complained to the health district which prompted an investigation. Even the HD said you do realize the pool is at peak usage and the pump will fail, this is not
due to HOA neglagence.

So, A lot of what this person is doing is just petulant dribble, it's the dribble that is going to make lawyers rich and us poor.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 10/30/2023 3:20 PM

So we have this one owner that lost her caca and immediately donned her cape and the keyboard warrior took to ND
basically accused the board and the PM of squandering funds and just shy of accusing us of embezzlement.
She lost it because assessments are being raised due to inflation, mainly the skyrocketing cost of natural gas and electric.

this keyboard warriors comments are very close to criminal accusations. Would it behove of us to have our corporate council
send this person a strongly worded letter , that if they continued their tirade we will take legal action against them?

My concern is this one person is going to cause problems for us and individually as a BOD.

Why are you on ND?
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/30/2023 8:16 PM
Posted By LetA on 10/30/2023 3:20 PM

So we have this one owner that lost her caca and immediately donned her cape and the keyboard warrior took to ND
basically accused the board and the PM of squandering funds and just shy of accusing us of embezzlement.
She lost it because assessments are being raised due to inflation, mainly the skyrocketing cost of natural gas and electric.

this keyboard warriors comments are very close to criminal accusations. Would it behove of us to have our corporate council
send this person a strongly worded letter , that if they continued their tirade we will take legal action against them?

My concern is this one person is going to cause problems for us and individually as a BOD.


Why are you on ND?

Purely for the entertainment value, and there are a couple of owners that communicate via PM.

Just observe and report, take screen shots, submit findings.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
The best response to complaints of increased expenses is to show the individual cost increases.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 10/30/2023 3:20 PM
this keyboard warriors comments are very close to criminal accusations.
IMO this is not enough to justify spending owners' funds on an attorney's letter. Also an attorney's letter may add fuel to the fire.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
For future reference... This is what we call "Noise" when you are on a HOA board. You are not under any contract to react. Give people enough rope they tend to hang themselves...

Former HOA President
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 10/31/2023 2:45 AM
The best response to complaints of increased expenses is to show the individual cost increases.


Everyone was mailed a budget for 2024, there should be no complaints. The budget was written with the expectations that natural gas and electric will
have the same rate increase in 2024 that we saw between 2021 and 2023. At least that is my understanding how those two cost were projected. The
rest are fixed cost.

To accuse someone of pocketing or directing funds into a separate account or eluding to said action is very inflammatory and defamatory.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Has anyone else expressed concern about the budget? If not, I agree with Melissa - the lady can bitch and moan all she wants, but unless and until she can provide proof of what she's saying, she's just yapping. You can't do much about people from other communities who read this - often, people can tell blowhards when they see them because they also have the blowhard's kindred spirits in their own neighborhood. And since they don't live there anyway, why spend more time paying attention to it?

I know there have been a few people on the Next Door websites in my community who will complain about their communities. Some homeowners would respond with "That's BS and you know it" while others would respond with "Say it again for the people in the back!" I don't see much of that anymore - apparently, there are monitors who are able to shut off the more obnoxious comments about anything.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I got accused of taking kickbacks from the communications company we were getting information from for our cable and internet contract. I happened to like their product better than the current one. We had them come in and give a presentation and I asked a lot of questions. Someone in the audience started spreading the rumor that I was getting paid to give them the contract. I didn't defend myself because that makes it worse. The PM did tell the person how inappropriate it was to say things like that. But you know some people believe it, especially since I was the lone dissenting vote when we took a vote to keep the current contract.

I almost never respond to anything on NextDoor about our community because that's a bunch of crazy people who simply try to stir up trouble. I did privately respond to a message on ND because the person wrote that our board was racist (we had shut down a large business an owner ran out of her home that was collecting donations for a mostly Hispanic community - but it was illegal no matter who she was donating to). I told the poster she needed to take down the post because that was libel and I would sue her. She replied that because she put IMHO in front of it she could say anything she wanted and I couldn't do anything about it. Because, you know, she read it on the internet.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Then STOP taking it personally. There is a point where you got to step back and look at the situation. Are you the liar? Are you doing what they say your doing? No? Then move on and ignore. Let them talk. People soon will find out the truth by actions not by talk...

Believe me I was accused of so many things as President it was not worth reacting. That is what they want. A reaction. The second you give them a reaction is the second you lose. They will pounce and run with it. So keep head held high and don't play their games.

The Ex-President had to deal with was a con-man lying scumbag. Those were his "Good traits". He was those type of person whom would take the words of others and then act like he did/said it. Actually heard the SAME quote from other people. It was my queue that I knew he had talked to these people behind my back. Caught him in so many lies. Plus he tried to manipulate people including myself. However, he was the President prior me moving in. He had built a "Trust" with some of the people. Others knew better or learned better. I learned/knew better...

What I learned is if I went around telling people how much of a liar this guy is, it made me look bad. It made me look like I had a grudge against him. It was my personal problem against him. This kept him in a "good light" as if he was the victim. This was so frustrating as I wanted to prevent people for falling for his lies. He ripped off elderly people with Alzheimer's. He was NOT a good guy. hat

I changed my approach. It was NOT my place to set people straight. I wasn't responsible for someone else's opinion. Matter of fact that is where I learned that usually what people say about others, is what that person is or does. They have the value system where they believe that in your case "cable payback" is okay if they did it. So the more that they claim about others, it revealed MORE about themselves. This will give you some more insight into their actions and not your own. Realize this person most likely would be the one whom would take a kick back. They would be the one doing exactly what they accuse others of. Once you look at them in that light, then you can look at the situation differently. Get yourself out of the guilt and realize where the guilt lies...

Former HOA President
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 10/31/2023 7:54 PM

I almost never respond to anything on NextDoor about our community because that's a bunch of crazy people who simply try to stir up trouble. I did privately respond to a message on ND because the person wrote that our board was racist (we had shut down a large business an owner ran out of her home that was collecting donations for a mostly Hispanic community - but it was illegal no matter who she was donating to). I told the poster she needed to take down the post because that was libel and I would sue her. She replied that because she put IMHO in front of it she could say anything she wanted and I couldn't do anything about it. Because, you know, she read it on the internet.

Well, of course - it wouldn't be on the internet if it wasn't true....

This is why this website is the closest I get to social media. I have a Facebook account, but most of the time I'm not on it (I only joined at the suggestion of a friend.) I rarely posted but did read assorted comments from folks I went to high school with. Nothing controversial - mostly wishing people happy birthday, talking about their kids, etc. Social media can be a great tool for good or bad, and because there aren't many filters, people say whatever the hell they want because they know they won't be found (which isn't to say they can't, but that takes some doing). The majority of the stuff people say they'd never have the guts to say it to one's face because they know they'd get royally cussed out or their face ripped off (or both).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 10/31/2023 7:54 PM
I got accused of taking kickbacks from the communications company we were getting information from for our cable and internet contract. I happened to like their product better than the current one. We had them come in and give a presentation and I asked a lot of questions. Someone in the audience started spreading the rumor that I was getting paid to give them the contract. I didn't defend myself because that makes it worse. The PM did tell the person how inappropriate it was to say things like that. But you know some people believe it, especially since I was the lone dissenting vote when we took a vote to keep the current contract.

I almost never respond to anything on NextDoor about our community because that's a bunch of crazy people who simply try to stir up trouble. I did privately respond to a message on ND because the person wrote that our board was racist (we had shut down a large business an owner ran out of her home that was collecting donations for a mostly Hispanic community - but it was illegal no matter who she was donating to). I told the poster she needed to take down the post because that was libel and I would sue her. She replied that because she put IMHO in front of it she could say anything she wanted and I couldn't do anything about it. Because, you know, she read it on the internet.

If your Nextdoor is mainly association members, it probably wouldn't be considered libel because it's not a public forum.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
What kind of thinking is that Terri? Lost in fantasy world again? These are real people in next door. You are not protected from any laws because they are not in your HOA or personal circle. The law is the law no matter where you post. Plus it can be for forever ..

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/01/2023 6:44 AM

If your Nextdoor is mainly association members, it probably wouldn't be considered libel because it's not a public forum.
Incorrect. John could whisper to Enrique that Sally has sex with 9-year-olds, and if false, that could be defamation/libel/slander.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 10/30/2023 3:20 PM

So we have this one owner that lost her caca and immediately donned her cape and the keyboard warrior took to ND
basically accused the board and the PM of squandering funds and just shy of accusing us of embezzlement.
She lost it because assessments are being raised due to inflation, mainly the skyrocketing cost of natural gas and electric.

this keyboard warriors comments are very close to criminal accusations. Would it behove of us to have our corporate council
send this person a strongly worded letter , that if they continued their tirade we will take legal action against them?

My concern is this one person is going to cause problems for us and individually as a BOD.

Such are the perils of living in an HOA. In California, it is illegal to formally prevent online criticism of the board. As you can see from te statute below, public hatred, contempt or ridicule is a necessary component of libel so if your Nextdoor is mostly members, a libel accusation may not work. Your members will be able to sort through false allegations.

"NRS 200.510  Definition; penalties; truth may be given in evidence; jury to determine law and fact.
1.  A libel is a malicious defamation, expressed by printing, writing, signs, pictures or the like, tending to blacken the memory of the dead, or to impeach the honesty, integrity, virtue, or reputation, or to publish the natural defects of a living person or persons, or community of persons, or association of persons, and thereby to expose them to public hatred, contempt or ridicule."

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We are not talking HOA rules. We are talking the real laws. Which still includes saying false things about others that causes harm or damage.

If you say your HOA board President sucks at their job that may be criticism. You say the President sleeps with the Secretary and they are not married to each other then that is slander. Plus their spouses are not members. They are married to members.

Former HOA President
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
No, the NextDoor group is not mostly members of the HOA. This woman didn’t even live in our community.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 11/01/2023 10:21 AM
No, the NextDoor group is not mostly members of the HOA. This woman didn’t even live in our community.

Then you probably have a case. It’s nice to be able to defend yourself.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You mean if someone posts on their own HOA page it's protected from the law or being valid? Good to know how to wrap one self up in a plastic bubble.

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/01/2023 7:56 AM

Such are the perils of living in an HOA. In California, it is illegal to formally prevent online criticism of the board.
It is not illegal for a board or director to sue on behalf of the corporation or him/herself when the corporation/director is defamed.
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 11/01/2023 7:56 AM
As you can see from te statute below, public hatred, contempt or ridicule is a necessary component of libel so if your Nextdoor is mostly members, a libel accusation may not work.
You missed the qualifier "expose" below. In addition you are misinterpreting the meaning of "public." A communication on Nextdoor may very well "expose" a person to public hatred et cetera.

In addition if it's not libel per se that's being claimed, then the plaintiff has to show damages, meaning that he or she lost money due to the defamation directly.

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