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LmT (California)
Posts: 237
Posted:
When a homeowner calls their own service person to fix a problem, who pays the bill if it is an item on the Maintenance Matrix that would be covered by the HOA? This has happened at our association and the bill presented by the homeowner's service repair person is much higher than what we have paid for the same repair at other homes.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
In my opinion, the homeowner shouldn't be having any common elements repaired. They should simply report to the Association what their repair person has found and the Association should act quickly to fix it.

That said, there are emergencies that may require the homeowner to have the current repair person repair to prevent further damage.

The Board should have a clear written policy on this to prevent the issue you describe.

If they do not have a clear policy, then I believe that the Board should pay for the repair until a policy is put in place.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Normally, I would say this is on the homeowner. In our community, residents have to call the property manager first if they have a maintenance issue that could be the association's responsibility. The association has to inspect the problem first to verify this, and to make sure the damage isn't a result of abuse or misuse by the homeowner - in which case he/she/they are responsible. Don't know why your community wouldn't already have a policy to this effect, so after you get through this, you need to establish one immediately.

You already know vendors charge whatever the market will bear, so you should be less worried about that and find out what else went into these repairs. Did the homeowner request additional work that had nothing to do with the primary problem? Did the contractor discover additional work that jacked up the price? Why didn't the homeowner notify the property manager and when was the problem first detected? It could have happened all of a sudden - or the homeowner noticed something, didn't think it was an issue until it was. Does your property manager have a on call manager that can take off hour complaints if this erupted at that time? Did the homeowner try to contact the property manager, but wasn't sucessful?

Ask the homeowner all of those questions and talk to the contractor to get more details on the work, and then you can decide if you should pay it, split the costs (which may be faster if you never had a policy) or tell the homeowner this is on his/her dime.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Good point, an itemized invoice (including itemized labor $ investigation, $$ for repair of pipe a, etc.) would be the first thing an Association should ask for.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
LmT

What type of association are you? High rise, townhomes, standalone homes, etc.? Also what was the needed repair?
LmT (California)
Posts: 237
Posted:
I've looked through our documents and don't see anything that specifically refers to a situation like this but I will need to look more closely. We do have a clause that requires only licensed contractors. We do have a Maintenance Responsibility Matrix that spells out who is responsible for what.

This will be on the list of items when we restate our documents next year.

We have a property manager and there is an emergency number for repairs. This situation has happened in the past and they have a list of vendors they use for various maintenance issues who will come out after hours and on weekends. The homeowner did not contact the property manager and it was not after hours. I guess they just felt it was their responsibility until a friendly neighbor informed them otherwise.

A detailed invoice will be requested.

Thanks for the response.
LmT (California)
Posts: 237
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/30/2023 12:54 PM
LmT

What type of association are you? High rise, townhomes, standalone homes, etc.? Also what was the needed repair?

Townhomes and it was a broken water line between the meter and the house.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With Tim make a very clear policy that residents phone the PM first and then its emergency #.

The residents should have read your matrix when they moved in.

It might be a good idea to blast a quick reminder to all resident and non-occupant owners that they must contact management as per the matrix and include a copy of it.

Your only need to make a simply rule add-on, if your won't something stormer than what you have. No need to wait for revising your CC&Rs.

You'd need to send out to owners the proposed rule for a 28-day comment period. Easy peasy.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173
Posted:
From experience, the water line between the meter and the unit is on the homeowner. From the source to the meter is HOA.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 10/30/2023 2:45 PM
From experience, the water line between the meter and the unit is on the homeowner. From the source to the meter is HOA.

with the expectation that the owner pays the water bill.
JoeN6 (Virginia)
Posts: 94
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LmT on 10/30/2023 12:37 PM
When a homeowner calls their own service person to fix a problem, who pays the bill if it is an item on the Maintenance Matrix that would be covered by the HOA? This has happened at our association and the bill presented by the homeowner's service repair person is much higher than what we have paid for the same repair at other homes.

Perhaps explain to Joes plumbing that the repair performed is an hoa item and then customer was not aware even tho he was sent documents detailed homeowner vs hoa maintenece items . The Hoa has an agreement with ABC plumbing with a schedule of cost per foot buried H20 pipe repair . You will give them $xxx.xx and the remainder you can bill the homeowner.

( bumper sticker on Joes service truck : “ Your Sh-t is our bread and butter”)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Unless the owner was informed of a specific procedure to follow, they were allowed to follow whatever procedure to properly repair the situation and bill the association.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 10/30/2023 12:41 PM
In my opinion, the homeowner shouldn't be having any common elements repaired. They should simply report to the Association what their repair person has found and the Association should act quickly to fix it.

That said, there are emergencies that may require the homeowner to have the current repair person repair to prevent further damage.

The Board should have a clear written policy on this to prevent the issue you describe.

If they do not have a clear policy, then I believe that the Board should pay for the repair until a policy is put in place.

This is great analysis and feedback. In the absence of a clearly written policy, the HOA should cover the time this one time.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JoeN6 on 10/30/2023 3:24 PM

( bumper sticker on Joes service truck : “ Your Sh-t is our bread and butter”)

Spotted this years ago: "In our business, a flush beats a full house."

LmT (California)
Posts: 237
Posted:
I have one more question on this subject. If a homeowner were to decide to call out their own vendor to, let's say, fix something in the common area; landscape light or landscape irrigation. Would it be justifiable to then send the bill to the HOA?

I'm just trying to figure out if by accepting this expense we may be opening the door for home owners to take maintenance into their own hands.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LmT on 11/07/2023 7:16 PM
I have one more question on this subject. If a homeowner were to decide to call out their own vendor to, let's say, fix something in the common area; landscape light or landscape irrigation. Would it be justifiable to then send the bill to the HOA?

I'm just trying to figure out if by accepting this expense we may be opening the door for home owners to take maintenance into their own hands.

I say if an immediate fix was needed (flooding pipe) then the homeowner can contact a vendor to repair and bill the association. The trick is establishing an immediate repair
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 10/30/2023 12:41 PM
In my opinion, the homeowner shouldn't be having any common elements repaired. They should simply report to the Association what their repair person has found and the Association should act quickly to fix it.

That said, there are emergencies that may require the homeowner to have the current repair person repair to prevent further damage.

The Board should have a clear written policy on this to prevent the issue you describe.

If they do not have a clear policy, then I believe that the Board should pay for the repair until a policy is put in place.

Last year we had heavy rain. The bank across the street from my property had about 8 slides about 6’ long that blocked the earthen gutter and was pushing the water onto the road, taking chunks out of the pavement. At a board meeting I asked was the board going to repair it or should we do it ourselves. A director’s husband said “if you fix it yourself, we’ll sue you.” Finally I just made enough space for the water to flow down the gutter but the slides are still there, no repair has been done and the rain has begun so I will be doing some shoveling.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If it's the common area, the homeowner should follow the procedure and contact the property manager. If there's an emergency number available, there's no reason to hire your own person.

If this was an emergency situation (something that threatens health and safety IS NOT the same as something being inconvenient or unattractive), I'd contact the property manager first to have it on record (document what you do because you'll need it) and then call the contractor. You'll also have to prove this was a health and safety issue that required immediate action - have the contractor write a statement to that effect.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LmT on 11/07/2023 7:16 PM
I have one more question on this subject. If a homeowner were to decide to call out their own vendor to, let's say, fix something in the common area; landscape light or landscape irrigation. Would it be justifiable to then send the bill to the HOA?

I'm just trying to figure out if by accepting this expense we may be opening the door for home owners to take maintenance into their own hands.
The owner has notice of the covenants and that the common elements do not belong to him/her individually. This means the owner has notice to keep his/her hands off the common elements (extreme emergencies excepted.)

It's very rare that I would support reimbursing an owner who called her/his own vendor to make a repair to the common areas. Furthermore, the chances that I would support sending a fierce letter (not unlike the HOA letter TerriS6 summarized), instructing the owner never to do this again, are high. Lastly I would support hiring an inspector to look at the work the owner's vendor did and billing the owner for this work.

If something goes wrong with the repair, the liability is too great.

This is no different from neighbor X trespassing onto neighbor Y's property to make a repair and then trying to bill Y for it.

Two cents.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
A double standard. The board is trying to amend the gov docs to allow them to go on private property to clear brush and fallen trees they think is a fire hazard then bill/lien the homeowner.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
We had this happen. After a hurricane last year, the pickleball courts were blocked by a tree debris. We were working to clean up but it was a large project and the vendors had not gotten to this area yet. One of our pickleball players was angry because he could not play, so he hired someone to cut up the large branches and remove from the court. He did not have permission to do this. He tried to submit a bill for the work to the association. We refused to pay because we had not authorized the job. He had reported it several times to the property manager, but the clean up work around the community was in progress and we just hadn't gotten there yet.

We do not reimburse owners for work like this. It would set a bad precedent.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
You're written, LmT, that maintenance/repair/replace obligations are specified in your CC&Rs AND in a Maintenance Matrix. It's an owner's job to read these and to understand that they aren't permitted to take ANY action re: the common areas. My HOA's recently restated CC&RS delineates the obligations of the HOA & Owners and we have a Maintenance Matrix too. But there's no wording in it that says OWNERS MAY NOT ARRANGE for maintenance/repair/replacement. I'm thinking that's maybe not stated in any CC&Rs. If someone DOES have that wording in any governing doc, I'd love to see it.

I think the simple thing is to blast all owners & renters that ONLY the HOA may, blah, blah. Or ocassionally insert such notice in your newsletter.

To me, ignorance of the governing docs is no excuse for a resident "billing" the HOA in maintenance/repair/replace work done by a vendor who might not even be licensed or insured. I do think that LmT's CC&Rs say that if Owners cause damage to the common areas (e.g., hiring a vendor who screws up a common area item), the owners can be billed. See, perhaps under Indemnification in your CC&Rs, LmT.

Owners & renters, LmT reports, have the contact info that's always staffed for emergencies that occur in the common areas. We don't even know if the owner who wants reimbursement was in an emergency (a threat to life or property, basically in CA) situation. Was their home being flooded?

To me, it would be very, very rare, that a resident would be forced to call a vendor because their emergency info contact isn't available. So in these extreme and rare circumstance, the board would need to decide how to proceed re:possible reimbursement and may need advice from their HOA attorney.
JulieH4
Posts: 75
Posted:
Townhomes and it was a broken water line between the meter and the house.

In our townhouse community, the owner has to call the property manager. The property manager would either tell them to call the plumber we use or call themselves (depends on what time this happens).

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