Texas ACC laws?

SquireS (Texas)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Can teh CIA/HOA hide the identities of the ACC members? Is there a law that permits this? I would think with the new law that states no board members spouses being able to be on the ACC that this should be public record, otherwise how do you know that they are actually adhering to the laws?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

To identify the members of the ACC, you could make a records request, pursuant to statute and the bylaws, for the minutes of the meetings where the ACC members were appointed.

Though I do think it's strange that no one will tell you who is on the ACC. Dare I inquire: Whom have you asked?

SquireS (Texas)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 4:09 PM
To identify the members of the ACC, you could make a records request, pursuant to statute and the bylaws, for the minutes of the meetings where the ACC members were appointed.

Though I do think it's strange that no one will tell you who is on the ACC. Dare I inquire: Whom have you asked?

I asked the entire board at the last meeting and they refused to tell citing saftey concerns.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SquireS on 10/10/2023 4:12 PM

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 4:09 PM
To identify the members of the ACC, you could make a records request, pursuant to statute and the bylaws, for the minutes of the meetings where the ACC members were appointed.

Though I do think it's strange that no one will tell you who is on the ACC. Dare I inquire: Whom have you asked?

I asked the entire board at the last meeting and they refused to tell citing saftey concerns.

I am certain others will chime in shortly.

Perhaps the board has good intentions, but it is also kinda clueless.

Now you are stuck with the rigamarole of making a records request for the minutes where the board appointed the ACC members. If the board wants to continue to be cute, it will redact the names. Whence you get to lawyer up or, IIRC, possibly go to small claims court ("justice court") in Texas.

Is this a condo? Or a HOA with single family homes on lots?

SquireS (Texas)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 4:17 PM

Posted By SquireS on 10/10/2023 4:12 PM

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 4:09 PM
To identify the members of the ACC, you could make a records request, pursuant to statute and the bylaws, for the minutes of the meetings where the ACC members were appointed.

Though I do think it's strange that no one will tell you who is on the ACC. Dare I inquire: Whom have you asked?

I asked the entire board at the last meeting and they refused to tell citing saftey concerns.

I am certain others will chime in shortly.

Perhaps the board has good intentions, but it is also kinda clueless.

Now you are stuck with the rigamarole of making a records request for the minutes where the board appointed the ACC members. If the board wants to continue to be cute, it will redact the names. Whence you get to lawyer up or, IIRC, possibly go to small claims court ("justice court") in Texas.

Is this a condo? Or a HOA with single family homes on lots?

Single family homes - approx 1400 of them

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SquireS on 10/10/2023 4:20 PM

Single family homes - approx 1400 of them

Excellent. Read texas statute section TPC 209.005 at https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PR/htm/PR.209.htm

Report back with questions.

You're gonna make a formal records request for the minutes (or any docs) showing where all the current ACC members were appointed, including their names. You're gonna send it certified mail, return receipt requested to the HOA manager. You're going to wait the number of days given in the statute section. Then report back here.

Else quiz tomorrow on TPC 209.005 at 9 AM. An extra credit question on the relevance of Justice Court will be included.

Elle
who pronounces "Texas A&M" like the Aggies do: "Tex A&M."

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Did you ask them to elaborate on what these "safety concerns" are? That can range from a homeowner calling up an ACC member and cussing him/her out because a request was denied all the way up to someone going to an ACC member's house and shooting up the place (sadly, people are triggered for all sorts of reasons these days, and you already know about some of the craziness that's happened in your state). Have you heard any stories about this happening? Do you have any other reason why you think spouses of the board members are currently on the committee - if so, it may be easier to focus on that.

Make a formal request in writing, as ElleN suggested, reminding the Board of current state law. If they still refuse, you'll have to consider if you want to refer this to a private attorney to discuss your options. If you made an exterior request and were turned down, file an appeal and make this part of it - of course you'll have to PROVE you were unfairly denied because Mrs. X is married to Mr. Y, and both have given you the stink eye and made snide remarks about the paint color you selected for your house - they live next door and think it's tacky.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

SquireS,
Our HOA is of similar size and in our case the ACC is handled by the PMC. Only the Variation requests come to the board. What makes you suspicious that there is a spouse on the committee? It seems like such a silly thing for a board to do based on the new Tx laws prohibiting such a thing.

If you are unhappy with a decision made by the committee, you can always appeal to the board for a final decision.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, Mark, when a member makes request for Assoc. records in Texas, must they specify the document they want, e.g., the minutes, of the 8/4/22 meeting (when committees were appointed)? Or does the PM or board member search a bunch of minutes to find when all the current members were appointed, and minutes when vacancies were filled by the Board too?

In CA, owners must specify specific documents, i.e, they may not ask for copies of all open meeting minutes for all board policy decisions made in 2021. In our hOA, and I think in many nowadays, board minutes are posted on the HOA's website. The owner can dig through them to find all kinds of info.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, Mark, when a member makes request for Assoc. records in Texas, must they specify the document they want, e.g., the minutes, of the 8/4/22 meeting (when committees were appointed)? Or does the PM or board member search a bunch of minutes to find when all the current members were appointed, and minutes when vacancies were filled by the Board too?

In CA, owners must specify specific documents, i.e, they may not ask for copies of all open meeting minutes for all board policy decisions made in 2021. In our hOA, and I think in many nowadays, board minutes are posted on the HOA's website. Owners can dig through them to find all kinds of info.

Committee members' names may not be redacted unless the Board puts that matter on an open meeting agenda for a Board vote. Approved minutes may not be "changed" w/o board approval.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Kerry,
In our case for the last 4 years our PMC has managed the ARC/ACC applications as part of their regular duties. We have been able to keep from having to appoint people to this committee. In our case we have never been asked by any owner to be appointed so we have left it to management. The new laws really didn't affect our community. We do have one board member that watches the applications and makes sure that they get approved or rejected according to the SLA (Service Level Agreement) that we were promised. As I mentioned earlier, we only have the apps that are looking for appeals come to the board.

In California it was completely run by committee and at the time had many spouses with their hands in the cookie jar.

SquireS (Texas)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/10/2023 5:28 PM
SquireS,
Our HOA is of similar size and in our case the ACC is handled by the PMC. Only the Variation requests come to the board. What makes you suspicious that there is a spouse on the committee? It seems like such a silly thing for a board to do based on the new Tx laws prohibiting such a thing.

If you are unhappy with a decision made by the committee, you can always appeal to the board for a final decision.

so a board member confirmed that in the past that the ACC was made up largly of spouses and that he didnt know who was on the ACC commitee as when he was asked he got stone walled.
As for the denial. Yes they denied my request for solar panels and the reasons that they provided absurd and in fact completly wrong.
1. denial part 1, no panels on front slope of roof
2. we dont want you to have black panels on your brown roof

Here is the problem, the proposal that was given to them did not have anything on the front slope of the house. The proposal only had panels on the back and sides, which they apparantly coundn't read. Second issue is that the law in Texas prohibits panels being denied because of color as long as the panels are black, brown/bronze or silver.
Last night the board president did everything she could to further stall my project by now requiring me to get signatures from my surrounding neighbors saying that they were ok with my getting the solar panels. I guess I should ask my nieghbors what color I should paint the inside of my house as well and what I should wear today. SMH

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SquireS on 10/11/2023 7:11 AM

Last night the board president did everything she could to further stall my project by now requiring me to get signatures from my surrounding neighbors saying that they were ok with my getting the solar panels.

Do the covenants require this? Do the covenants allow the ARC to create guidelines, and do these guidelines have such a requirement?

I do not rule out the possibility that the Board or ARC can lawfully create such a requirement sua sponte.

Quote:

Posted By SquireS on 10/11/2023 7:11 AM
I guess I should ask my nieghbors what color I should paint the inside of my house as well and what I should wear today. SMH

Fact: If the covenants require neighbors' approval, or if the covenants give the ARC the authority to create reasonable rules for ARC applications, then you probably have to get neighbors' approval.

Respectfully, I urge you to stay focused on what your HOA's Declaration of CC&Rs says. It's not uncommon for covenants to require neighbors' approval for changes to the exterior of a home.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SquireS on 10/11/2023 7:11 AM

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/10/2023 5:28 PM
SquireS,
Our HOA is of similar size and in our case the ACC is handled by the PMC. Only the Variation requests come to the board. What makes you suspicious that there is a spouse on the committee? It seems like such a silly thing for a board to do based on the new Tx laws prohibiting such a thing.

If you are unhappy with a decision made by the committee, you can always appeal to the board for a final decision.

so a board member confirmed that in the past that the ACC was made up largly of spouses and that he didnt know who was on the ACC commitee as when he was asked he got stone walled.
As for the denial. Yes they denied my request for solar panels and the reasons that they provided absurd and in fact completly wrong.
1. denial part 1, no panels on front slope of roof
2. we dont want you to have black panels on your brown roof

Here is the problem, the proposal that was given to them did not have anything on the front slope of the house. The proposal only had panels on the back and sides, which they apparantly coundn't read. Second issue is that the law in Texas prohibits panels being denied because of color as long as the panels are black, brown/bronze or silver.
Last night the board president did everything she could to further stall my project by now requiring me to get signatures from my surrounding neighbors saying that they were ok with my getting the solar panels. I guess I should ask my nieghbors what color I should paint the inside of my house as well and what I should wear today. SMH

This board member said the ACC had board members' spouses IN THE PAST - that doesn't necessarily mean there are any today (did you ask how long ago was "past"?) Interesting he didn't know who was on the ACC if he was a board member (or he just didn't want to tell you).

Now, if all this is about you putting solar panels on your roof, I know in my state homeowners may petition their neighbors to see if they have any issues with solar panal installation, but you'll have to check what Texas law says. In fact, why didn't you talk to a contractor about this - some of them have assisted homeowners in submitting sucessful exterior change requests to their HOAs (because they want the business and will review your documents). Here's one information page on Texas law regarding solar panels, but don't stop there - do your own research, ask questions and begin to prepare your appeal.

And as Ellen suggested, stay focused on the main issue - winning your appeal. The ending of your last comment indicated you're getting really pissed as you consider the issue, and you may have a good reason for doing so, but as Michael Corleone said in Godfather III - never get angry at your enemies, it affects your judgement. This may be a great opportunity to educate the board on solar panels and possibly lead to new design standards for the ACC to use that'll make it easier for other homeowners in the future.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/11/2023 8:08 AM
The ending of your last comment indicated you're getting really pissed as you consider the issue, and you may have a good reason for doing so, but as Michael Corleone said in Godfather III - never get angry at your enemies, it affects your judgement.

It's just a movie, but I believe competent attorneys advise their clients similarly. (And if their clients cannot contain their emotions, count on it, the client will pay more in attorney fees as the attorney deals with the emotions.)

It seems to me attorneys themselves are typically and notoriously well-versed in not showing anger at their opponents. It's just the law and the facts that they communicate between themselves and to the court.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Whoops, forgot to put in the link: https://www.integratesun.com/post/texas-hoa-rules-in-2023-is-solar-panel-installation-possible#:~:text=The%20%22Right%20to%20Install%20Solar,HOA%20approval%20for%20solar%20initiatives.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Squire

I assume your property is located in a Texas HOA formed under Section 209 of the Texas Property Code. If you are living in a condominium regime organized under Chapter 81 or 82 of the property code, that is a different matter.

I suggest you become thoroughly familiar with TPC Section 202.010. Frankly, the Legislature mandated over ten years ago that HOAs in Texas must allow the installation of solar panels, subject to certain guidelines and restrictions. Your HOA should have developed a set of guidelines to be followed years ago. Requiring the approval of the neighbors is not one of the allowable guidelines or restrictions.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 10/11/2023 11:59 AM

I suggest you become thoroughly familiar with TPC Section 202.010. Frankly, the Legislature mandated over ten years ago that HOAs in Texas must allow the installation of solar panels, subject to certain guidelines and restrictions. Your HOA should have developed a set of guidelines to be followed years ago. Requiring the approval of the neighbors is not one of the allowable guidelines or restrictions.

Nice citation. However I am not so sure what you wrote about approval is completely correct. From TPC 202.010:

A property owners' association or the association's architectural review committee may not withhold approval for installation of a solar energy device if the provisions of the dedicatory instruments to the extent authorized by Subsection (d) are met or exceeded, unless the association or committee, as applicable, determines in writing that placement of the device as proposed by the property owner constitutes a condition that substantially interferes with the use and enjoyment of land by causing unreasonable discomfort or annoyance to persons of ordinary sensibilities. For purposes of making a determination under this subsection, the written approval of the proposed placement of the device by all property owners of adjoining property constitutes prima facie evidence that such a condition does not exist.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Unless very unusual, where the HOA Board has voted to give the Prez complete control over every potential decision, she may not "require" you to do anything. Only the Board, with its members' votes that're noted in minutes, may "direct" owners to do anything. EXCEPT if the president's direction already is in your ARC documents, CC&Rs, or elsewhere, AND they comply with Texas code. I'd be concerned about a rogue president or, worse, an "empty" Board.

Related to Squire's request for docs, I asked Mark a question, but I don't know why he answered with something not relevant to my question? In Calif, an owner may not ask for copies of approved minutes that show when any current member of the ARC was appointed, and who each is. It's possible that there been resignations, & re-appointments, etc. Put another way, owners' requests for searches & compilations, e.g., when & how many parking violations did the HOA issue over the past two years do not have to be addressed. I don't know if Texas record searches requests are similar or different than CA.

Shelia notes that companies that install solar systems often have all objections by HOAs answered by citing statute, etc. That also was very common in CA back in the day when solar panels were an "eyesore" issue; I suppose still is somewhere. As she points out, these company want your business and will make it as easy as possible for you to get approval,.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Kerry,
Sorry for the confusion by my reply. In our HOA we have never had an ACC/ARC committee in the 6+ years I have been on the board. That being said I would assume if an appointment was made during a regular meeting it should and would have been noted in the minutes. The same goes for anyone being replaced or removed because of State laws changing.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

ElleN

I'm aware of the Subsection D language and am of the opinion that an ordinary solar panel installation would not constitute interference, enjoyment, discomfort, or an annoyance situation.

An example of an installation which would potentially constitute an annoyance would be one in which the angle at which the panels are mounted results in sun glare shining into the windows of an adjacent property. This is an issue for one of our clients, a small, private airport with residences with integrated hangars as the solar panels cannot be mounted in such a way that they result in glare reaching the eyes of the pilots while taking off or landing.

The Texas Legislature made it very clear in 2011 that an TPC Section 209 HOA may not unreasonably block an owner from installing solar panels. Reasonable restrictions are acceptable. Some association boards seem not to have been made aware of this, or they simply ignore it. There are those who are 'turned off' by the aesthetics of the solar panels, that ship has sailed in this state as far as using aesthetics as a reason not to approve an ACC request for a solar panel installation.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 10/11/2023 4:21 PM
I'm aware of the Subsection D language and am of the opinion that an ordinary solar panel installation would not constitute interference, enjoyment, discomfort, or an annoyance situation.

I am of the opinion that this part of section 202.010 is written in such a curious way that the safer bet legally is to get the neighbors' approval. Hence the President's request.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Elln,
I came from Ca. where the good neighbor sign off was required on ARC/ACC applications. In Texas it is not required, and I am just wondering if request from the president is legal? Why would I be forced to do more than others when it is not required?

I am not a Solar fan of Solar power and with our Texas base rates .09 cents per kilo watt or 1/3 of the Cal. base rates I often wonder how they pencil out for customers.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/11/2023 6:09 PM
Elln,
I came from Ca. where the good neighbor sign off was required on ARC/ACC applications. In Texas it is not required, and I am just wondering if request from the president is legal? Why would I be forced to do more than others when it is not required?

I am getting old and decrepit and that verbiage in 202.010 is not an easy read. It's two sentences and I think has like ten or more verbs. For one thing, I think it is saying that the HOA is protected from suits by other owners as long as the owners of the adjoining property sign off on the solar panels indicating the panels are not discomforting or annoying.

These boards (with you currently serving on one?) are mere volunteers. At present I do not fault the president (board?) for believing that she is implementing the law. The neighbors' approval should almost always be a formality. They had better be reasonable.

What happens if the next door neighbors do not sign their approval but the HOA goes forward and okays the solar system installation? Conceivably someone could sue down the road and say the panels are annoying or discomforting. The lack of the next door neighbors' approval makes it harder to prevail.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

MarkM19, pardon. You asked if I thought the president's request is legal. If the insurer is involved, or liability is possible, I think so.

What happens if the neighbors refuse to sign their approval, because the neighbors find the panels annoying or discomforting? Well this goes to the heart of 202.010, doesn't it? Because this is when a HOA can refuse to approve the installation.

Enter the lawyers.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm surprised that anyone here thinks the president, alone, has the authority to demand that an owner do X or Y. She does, of course, IF X or Y is required in the HOA's Gov. docs or in state code. Otherwise, she has no power to tell any owner or director what to do.

(Sorry, Mark, I asked my question poorly--twice. I'll forget it for now)