Board Member Commitment Document for CA

SusanO3 (California)
Posts: 163

Posted:

Do any of you ask Board Members to sign a "commitment type" document when they join the Board. Such as:

I understand the need to make myself available for meetings
I will inform Board Chair if I am unable to attend
I will read the premeeting material and come prepared to participate
I will keep Board discussions confidential
I know that the Board is looking at the common good of the community
I have read and had an opportunity to ask questions about our By Laws, CC&Rs, and the Davis Stirling Act
I am prepared to lead and participate in projects on behalf of the board, in between meetings

I have not thought in detail about this list, so please don't come after me! It's just to give you an idea of what I mean. I know we don't want to frighten our volunteers, but I also don't want volunteers who leave everything up to the Chair, follow their own agendas, only look at issues as an individual, gossip about Board matters etc.

I used to be Chair of a Preschool Board and we had a document similar for our volunteer board members, so was just wondering if this is ever done in HOA world.

Any wisdom gladly received. TIA Sue

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

I would have candidates running for the Board sign a document like this and have the document mailed with ballots and candidate bios.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Not that I've seen.

Personally, if asked to sign such a document I would be insulted.

I believe you may cause more issues then you tend to correct.

SusanO3 (California)
Posts: 163

Posted:

All I can say is...I wish my Board members were all you! And did these things without having to be gently reminded when they take office.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/10/2023 2:54 PM
Not that I've seen.

Personally, if asked to sign such a document I would be insulted.

I believe you may cause more issues then you tend to correct.

So how do owners know you are making a commitment to serve as their Board member? You are holding them accountable as it's in writing.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Susan,
This looks a lot like a "Code of Conduct" contract. This has come up many times since I have been on this site met with mixed reviews.

I personally like them, but I think it is 50-50 on them. If I were you, I would phrase it slightly less strict. Maybe in the form of what other board members are currently doing instead of what must be done. I would also include it in the Election materials sent to the owners. If anyone reads them, it will give them an idea what board members do and may slow the spread of dissent on social media.

Many people have very little understanding of the time, talent and scrutiny that comes with the job. By using something like this you may shake the Trees of a few that just want the title and are the type that I have mentioned dozens of times here that have only 1 interest. If they get it, they check out and if they don't get it they pout and then become counterproductive to the HOA.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

My take: It's fine to ask people to read this and sign it. Just do not require it. Why? because you would be adding a qualification to serve on the board, and this violates California statutes.

I do not think I would sign it, mostly because of the last sentence.

If I were on the board, I also likely would not vote to present this to new board members or candidates. Regardless of what a person's skill set is, I find it somewhat insulting.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:01 PM
So how do owners know you are making a commitment to serve as their Board member? You are holding them accountable as it's in writing.

How is the director being held accountable? Do you feel the proposed document is a contract, enforceable in court?

Furthermore requiring a signature on this document violates California law concerning qualifications to serve on a board.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 3:23 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:01 PM
So how do owners know you are making a commitment to serve as their Board member? You are holding them accountable as it's in writing.

How is the director being held accountable? Do you feel the proposed document is a contract, enforceable in court?

Furthermore requiring a signature on this document violates California law concerning qualifications to serve on a board.

There are Election Rules written by high-powered HOA law firms that have a similar document as part of the Rules. It is sent out to all candidates that submitted nomination forms. It is also part of the Election Rules which must be made available prior to each election.

And it doesn't violate any California law as it doesn't say signing the document is a qualification to be a board member. Where do you make this sh$t up from?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

We've never done it and if I were asked to do so, I wouldn't be insulted. Grown people know the importance of going into things eyes wide open and while you can't predict how life evolves, they usually understand it's tacky to make a commitment to something without completely understanding and accepting what you're taking on. I don't need to sign a piece of paper promising to read and comply with the documents.

That said, while I don't have an issue with codes of conduct, ethics, or whatever you want to call it, I can understand why some people would (why would I be running for the position if I had no plans to come to meetings??) However, I've seen conversations on this website that suggest there are a number of people who join HOA boards and don't have the first clue what it requires. Usually, they come on with an agenda, won't read anything, including the documents, and get insulted if you ask any questions (because they know you won't stand for the BS) and don't see to apply careful thought to anything, let alone understand basic math.

Personally, I think these questions are better suited for a "meet the candidates" forum where everyone gets the same question and you can get some idea of where their heads are at, and whether they're really interested in doing the best they can to improve the community or are only interested in the title and/or what they can get for themselves and their close friends in the hood.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

How about developing Board Ethics document?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Nope. It's not worth the paper it is written on. Your HOA has insurance that should cover all of that.

Former HOA President

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/10/2023 3:38 PM
We've never done it and if I were asked to do so, I wouldn't be insulted. Grown people know the importance of going into things eyes wide open and while you can't predict how life evolves, they usually understand it's tacky to make a commitment to something without completely understanding and accepting what you're taking on. I don't need to sign a piece of paper promising to read and comply with the documents.

That said, while I don't have an issue with codes of conduct, ethics, or whatever you want to call it, I can understand why some people would (why would I be running for the position if I had no plans to come to meetings??) However, I've seen conversations on this website that suggest there are a number of people who join HOA boards and don't have the first clue what it requires. Usually, they come on with an agenda, won't read anything, including the documents, and get insulted if you ask any questions (because they know you won't stand for the BS) and don't see to apply careful thought to anything, let alone understand basic math.

Personally, I think these questions are better suited for a "meet the candidates" forum where everyone gets the same question and you can get some idea of where their heads are at, and whether they're really interested in doing the best they can to improve the community or are only interested in the title and/or what they can get for themselves and their close friends in the hood.

I have been involved in "meet the candidate nights". 4 people show up.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:38 PM

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 3:23 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:01 PM
So how do owners know you are making a commitment to serve as their Board member? You are holding them accountable as it's in writing.

How is the director being held accountable? Do you feel the proposed document is a contract, enforceable in court?

Furthermore requiring a signature on this document violates California law concerning qualifications to serve on a board.

There are Election Rules written by high-powered HOA law firms that have a similar document as part of the Rules. It is sent out to all candidates that submitted nomination forms. It is also part of the Election Rules which must be made available prior to each election.

And it doesn't violate any California law as it doesn't say signing the document is a qualification to be a board member. Where do you make this sh$t up from?

Permissive Qualifications. Beginning January 1, 2020, there are only four candidate qualifications associations are allowed to adopt. A person can be disqualified from serving on the board if:

Delinquent. The person is delinquent in the payment of regular and special assessments unless (i) paid under protest, (ii) entered into a payment plan, or (iii) was not offered Internal Dispute Resolution (IDR) by the association. (Civ. Code § 5105(c)(1) & (d).)
Joint Ownership. If the person, if elected, would be serving on the board at the same time as another person who holds a joint ownership interest in the same separate interest parcel as the person and the other person is either properly nominated for the current election or an incumbent director. (Civ. Code § 5105(c)(2).)
Owner Less Than One Year. If that person has been a member of the association for less than one year. (Civ. Code § 5105(c)(3).)
Criminal Conviction. A past criminal conviction that either (i) prevents the association from purchasing the fidelity bond coverage required by Section 5806 should the person be elected or (ii) terminate the association’s existing fidelity bond coverage as to that person should the person be elected. (Civ. Code § 5105(c)(4).)
Term Limits. In initially voided by Marjorie Murray's organization, the legislature restored term limits in 2022.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:38 PM

There are Election Rules written by high-powered HOA law firms that have a similar document as part of the Rules. It is sent out to all candidates that submitted nomination forms. It is also part of the Election Rules which must be made available prior to each election.

Go ahead and produce this document. I am sure it would help the OP.

I suspect this document, and the circumstances under which it is read and considered, is quite different from what the OP posted.

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:38 PM
And it doesn't violate any California law as it doesn't say signing the document is a qualification to be a board member. Where do you make this sh$t up from?

You are the one who said the document could be used to hold directors accountable. This is false.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelS56 on 10/10/2023 3:39 PM
How about developing Board Ethics document?

How about reading the bylaws, covenants and HOA statute and offering a quiz on them?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

JamesB37 gets my HOATalk Hero of the Day award. You are rocking it, amigo.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:41 PM

Posted By SheliaH on 10/10/2023 3:38 PM
We've never done it and if I were asked to do so, I wouldn't be insulted. Grown people know the importance of going into things eyes wide open and while you can't predict how life evolves, they usually understand it's tacky to make a commitment to something without completely understanding and accepting what you're taking on. I don't need to sign a piece of paper promising to read and comply with the documents.

That said, while I don't have an issue with codes of conduct, ethics, or whatever you want to call it, I can understand why some people would (why would I be running for the position if I had no plans to come to meetings??) However, I've seen conversations on this website that suggest there are a number of people who join HOA boards and don't have the first clue what it requires. Usually, they come on with an agenda, won't read anything, including the documents, and get insulted if you ask any questions (because they know you won't stand for the BS) and don't see to apply careful thought to anything, let alone understand basic math.

Personally, I think these questions are better suited for a "meet the candidates" forum where everyone gets the same question and you can get some idea of where their heads are at, and whether they're really interested in doing the best they can to improve the community or are only interested in the title and/or what they can get for themselves and their close friends in the hood.

I have been involved in "meet the candidate nights". 4 people show up.

Then we're back to your original suggestion, except I'd hand everyone a list of questions and tell them the answers will be posted along with the candidate bios. Newspapers run similar stories around election time - and if you don't respond, it reads "did not receive a response" or something like that. From there, draw your own conclusions and vote how you feel.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/10/2023 4:00 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:41 PM

I have been involved in "meet the candidate nights". 4 people show up.

Then we're back to your original suggestion,

No no no, Ms. SheliaH. Stand by your guns. I have seen HOA "Meet the Candidate" events that were mobbed and standing room only. I liked your suggestion:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/10/2023
Personally, I think these questions are better suited for a "meet the candidates" forum where everyone gets the same question and you can get some idea of where their heads are at, and whether they're really interested in doing the best they can to improve the community or are only interested in the title and/or what they can get for themselves and their close friends in the hood.

It's clear to me that you graduated from a real college.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Realistically, I believe most vote for someone who volunteered to serve on an HOA board because they don't want the job.
Offer anyone who is complaining about the board the opportunity to serve on the board and be part of the decision process, 90% say NO THANK YOU!

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 3:01 PM

Posted By TimB4 on 10/10/2023 2:54 PM
Not that I've seen.

Personally, if asked to sign such a document I would be insulted.

I believe you may cause more issues then you tend to correct.

So how do owners know you are making a commitment to serve as their Board member? You are holding them accountable as it's in writing.

Signing a piece of paper doesn’t guarantee anything.

If Homeowners want ethical, responsible board members vote for ethical, responsible people.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 3:54 PM

Posted By MichaelS56 on 10/10/2023 3:39 PM
How about developing Board Ethics document?

How about reading the bylaws, covenants and HOA statute and offering a quiz on them?

Oh! I have an idea for our next election!

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidG45 on 10/10/2023 4:19 PM

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 3:54 PM

Posted By MichaelS56 on 10/10/2023 3:39 PM
How about developing Board Ethics document?

How about reading the bylaws, covenants and HOA statute and offering a quiz on them?

Oh! I have an idea for our next election!

Attaway :-))

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/10/2023 2:54 PM
Not that I've seen.

Personally, if asked to sign such a document I would be insulted.

I believe you may cause more issues then you tend to correct.

I agree. Cheaters cheat no matter what they sign. Same with idiots.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

"I will keep Board discussions confidential"

Hopefully this is only meant to apply to executive session. Otherwise board discussions shouldn't be confidential, they should be open.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 10/11/2023 6:11 AM
"I will keep Board discussions confidential"

Hopefully this is only meant to apply to executive session. Otherwise board discussions shouldn't be confidential, they should be open.

That caught my eye as well, since it's inconsistent with CA's open meeting laws.

My usual shtick about codes of conduct for board members:

* They're ineffective. Ethical board members are already behaving according to some version of such codes. Unethical ones who don't care about violating laws won't be stopped by a piece of paper. The rest would benefit from board member training which is available from a number of sources and is much more thorough.

* They're probably not enforceable. Unless state laws or your governing documents require such a thing, then you have no grounds for insisting on it.

* They're not needed. Homeowners already have the ability to remove board members with or without cause.

* They create a false sense of security. Homeowners may feel like they don't need to pay close attention to what's going on, which may make it more likely that bad stuff may go unnoticed.

* They may make the board ineligible for the business judgement defense, since the board is agreeing ahead of time to behave in a certain fashion regardless of the merits of the topics under discussion. (A few lawyers believe this, others don't. The details will matter.)

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SusanO3 on 10/10/2023 2:12 PM
Do any of you ask Board Members to sign a "commitment type" document when they join the Board. Such as:

I understand the need to make myself available for meetings
I will inform Board Chair if I am unable to attend
I will read the premeeting material and come prepared to participate
I will keep Board discussions confidential
I know that the Board is looking at the common good of the community
I have read and had an opportunity to ask questions about our By Laws, CC&Rs, and the Davis Stirling Act
I am prepared to lead and participate in projects on behalf of the board, in between meetings

I have not thought in detail about this list, so please don't come after me! It's just to give you an idea of what I mean. I know we don't want to frighten our volunteers, but I also don't want volunteers who leave everything up to the Chair, follow their own agendas, only look at issues as an individual, gossip about Board matters etc.

I used to be Chair of a Preschool Board and we had a document similar for our volunteer board members, so was just wondering if this is ever done in HOA world.

Any wisdom gladly received. TIA Sue

It's problematic for all the reasons posted, especially that "in between meetings" part. Hopefully those who decline to sign if adopted won't be ostracized.