Member lists

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Hello, I am new to this forum and have a question.

I asked my association for a copy of the association's membership list. The manager provided me a list which included property address, homeowner and mailing address, but does not include phone or email.

At https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/M/Membership-Lists, it says:
Right to Review & Copy. Members can inspect and copy the association's membership list. (Civ. Code § 5200 and § 5205.) A membership list is defined to include a member's name, property address, mailing address, and email address but not including information for members who have opted out pursuant to Civil Code § 5220. (Civ. Code § 5200(a)(9).)

As the list I was provided did not include email addresses, I noticed the following language at that same site:
Email Addresses. Beginning January 1, 2020, members' email addresses which are officially made available to an association must be added to the membership list information. Civil Code § 5200 defines "Association records" to include membership lists with email addresses. With the steady increase in junk email, identity theft, malware, and hacking, most owners do not want their email addresses made public without their permission. Fortunately, the Davis-Stirling Act allows members to opt out of the membership list pursuant (see below).

Upon pointing this out to the manager, I was told email addresses of the homeowners are not maintained by the association. I know this to not be true, as I have provided my email address to the association. And the association periodically sends out email blasts (I am 99.9999% sure I am not the only one on that email blast list). So the email addresses of the homeowners must have been made available to the association.

Is the association within their rights to withhold the email addresses from a member who wishes to review, inspect & copy the membership list?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/09/2023 4:33 PM
Is the association within their rights to withhold the email addresses from a member who wishes to review, inspect & copy the membership list?

As you noted, if the member opted out of sharing his/her email address on the membership list shared with other owners, then the HOA is within its rights to withhold the email address.

The problem of course is confirming that other owners actually did opt out. Perhaps you could make a records request for a list of those owners who opted out? The purpose would be to try to lawfully force the hoa's hand.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Jeff,
I know that the list I requested in Ca. many years ago also did not include email addresses. I find that PMCs are pretty tight with email lists, and you may find that you will not be given them without a big fight. I have also requested that list in Texas from a PMC that we fired, and we were refused.

Not sure the purpose of this request. Are you running for a board seat and want to send out your info? How would you feel if every small business owner got the list from the HOA and spammed all the owners? It would probably make many if not most pull the access from the HOA. HOA eblast are a great tool and the management company needs to protect its information IMO.

What purpose makes you want this list?

Why I did and was very successful when I was trying to oust a corrupt board president many years ago was take the mailing list and send a post card or letter to each owner. It cost me less than a dollar a home and if well written can be very effective. If this is your plan and you have the list, I would tailor a special letter to the Non-Owner occupied addresses.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Thanks for the reply. I wish to not get sidetracked with the reasons behind why I want the list and keep the focus on whether or not the association is within their rights to withhold the email addresses from a list which they readily made available to me.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Thanks for the reply. With respect to opting out, I do not see it says the email address specifically. It only says opt out of being on the membership list. While I have not counted the amount of homeowners on the membership list, it is large enough to make it clear that not many have opted out.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Jeff,
I doubt you will be successful. Names and addresses are things that anyone can look up using internet tools. Email address is a different story.

If you gave them as much info as you gave us, I would have told you a Big No as well.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

The disclosure of email addresses are
required unless a homeowner has opted out.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

With respect to opting out, that seems to pertain to the membership list as opposed to any part of their contact info. So if they are on the membership list (or have not opted out) and their email address has been made available to the association, it would seem to follow that their email address would be part of the membership list.

Again:
Right to Review & Copy. Members can inspect and copy the association's membership list. (Civ. Code § 5200 and § 5205.) A membership list is defined to include a member's name, property address, mailing address, and email address but not including information for members who have opted out pursuant to Civil Code § 5220. (Civ. Code § 5200(a)(9).)
Email Addresses. Beginning January 1, 2020, members' email addresses, which are officially made available to an association, must be added to the membership list information. Civil Code § 5200 defines "Association records" to include membership lists with email addresses. With the steady increase in junk email, identity theft, malware, and hacking, most owners do not want their email addresses made public without their permission. Fortunately, the Davis-Stirling Act allows members to opt out of the membership list pursuant (see below).

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

With respect to opting out, that seems to pertain to the membership list as opposed to any part of their contact info. So if they are on the membership list (or have not opted out) and their email address has been made available to the association, it would seem to follow that their email address would be part of the membership list.

Again:
Right to Review & Copy. Members can inspect and copy the association's membership list. (Civ. Code § 5200 and § 5205.) A membership list is defined to include a member's name, property address, mailing address, and email address but not including information for members who have opted out pursuant to Civil Code § 5220. (Civ. Code § 5200(a)(9).)
Email Addresses. Beginning January 1, 2020, members' email addresses, which are officially made available to an association, must be added to the membership list information. Civil Code § 5200 defines "Association records" to include membership lists with email addresses. With the steady increase in junk email, identity theft, malware, and hacking, most owners do not want their email addresses made public without their permission. Fortunately, the Davis-Stirling Act allows members to opt out of the membership list pursuant (see below).

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You are absolutely correct the in CA, since 2020 Owners' requests for the "membership list" include email addresses. So, you are saying the membership list only has your name on it? And the manager (PM) is saying that all other owners have opted out??

I think I'd make the request again in writing, an asking the PM to copy the board of directors. Make sure you include the Civ. Code and that it was passed in 2020. Some PMs are not up to speed on newer legislation. Send it return receipt requested. See what happens.

Along with that, attend the next open board meeting and at the open forum that's required in CA, ask the Board to please direct the PM to provide you with the accurate list. If they refuse, ask them why.

If no success, you might try what poster Terri of CA has done. and take your issue to small claims court. Your HOA is required to let you participate in an IDR first (see your CC&Rs or Davis-stirling.com), so you could give that a try, first and ask to see the list of opt-outs' names.

In. my HOA, I think two out of 200+ condo units opted out.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/09/2023 5:00 PM
With respect to opting out, I do not see it says the email address specifically. It only says opt out of being on the membership list.

My mistake. You are correct. The law on this has changed notably over the years.

You can quote back the statute sections themselves to the manager and/or board. If they still refuse, ask for IDR (see the Davis-Stirling site for details). If IDR fails, in California small claims courts have limited authority to provide injunctive relief for HOA disputes, and you could proceed to court.

Be warned: HOA Boards commonly retaliate when an owner demands this or that and takes the HOA to court. There is an enormous amount of lawful harassment to which boards can subject an owner.

According to competent HOA attorneys, and per the experience of many here, the least laborious and best recourse by far is to win election to the board with a majority who feel as you do. But this is the best of a lot of bad options.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Thanks for the reply.

No, I am not saying I am the only person on the membership list. I have received the membership list. I have not counted how many are on the list, but it seems as if less than 10% have opted out.

Why would the board be involved? This is between me and the association manager. Might there be a good reason I would want the board to be involved?

I did mention the code, but the association manager says they are unaware of any email addresses being made available to the association. I know this is not true, as I have made my email address available to the association.

The association claims the civil code does not require them to maintain email addresses and that they are unaware of email addresses ever being made available to them. Yet I know I made my email address available to them. So they are clearly being untruthful about something.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

ElleN the problem with the poster Jeff is he does not give enough information about his reasons for wanting the list. He could be running for a board seat, or he may be trying to get the list so he can sell the community Solar Panels. I have always thought that I remember the list was only given for certain uses. I could definitely be wrong, but we are left guessing here.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/09/2023 6:35 PM
ElleN the problem with the poster Jeff is he does not give enough information about his reasons for wanting the list. He could be running for a board seat, or he may be trying to get the list so he can sell the community Solar Panels. I have always thought that I remember the list was only given for certain uses. I could definitely be wrong, but we are left guessing here.

MarkM19, respectfully I do not need to know Jeff's reasons. As you may recall, California statutes do require that an owner provide a "proper purpose" reasonably related to his/her interests as a member yada. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/R/Right-to-Inspect-Records. If the manager is competent (and that's often a big "if"), he/she will ensure the purpose is proper. So far I suspect the manager is not all that competent. Granted my bigger fear is Jeff does not know how awful it is dealing with the politics of HOAs yet may have his ego invested in this.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/09/2023 6:31 PM
Thanks for the reply.

No, I am not saying I am the only person on the membership list. I have received the membership list. I have not counted how many are on the list, but it seems as if less than 10% have opted out.

Why would the board be involved? This is between me and the association manager. Might there be a good reason I would want the board to be involved?

I did mention the code, but the association manager says they are unaware of any email addresses being made available to the association. I know this is not true, as I have made my email address available to the association.

The association claims the civil code does not require them to maintain email addresses and that they are unaware of email addresses ever being made available to them. Yet I know I made my email address available to them. So they are clearly being untruthful about something.

Sorry, this is the Board decision, not a management company's.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/09/2023 6:31 PM
Why would the board be involved? This is between me and the association manager.

The reason this is between you and the HOA is because the manager is an agent of the HOA. By law and per the covenants, the manager is under the direct supervision of the board. If the manager is not following the law or the covenants, owners need to take this to the board. If you were to sue, your claim would be principally against the HOA.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 10/09/2023 4:51 PM
Why I did and was very successful when I was trying to oust a corrupt board president many years ago was take the mailing list and send a post card or letter to each owner. It cost me less than a dollar a home and if well written can be very effective. If this is your plan and you have the list, I would tailor a special letter to the Non-Owner occupied addresses.

By the way, I support the above approach. Otherwise it is too easy to miss the forest for the trees and get bogged down in a records request, IDR, possibly small claims court and ultimately, egos living for the conflict instead of constructive results.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Jeff's reason do not matter. It is his right to have the membership list, which now includes email addresses.

As Aidyl notes, Jeff, the PM does as directed by management. So that's exactly why I advised involving THE BOARD. I hope you will take my suggestion seriously.( I have many years experience as a CA HOA Board director.)

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

In my 8 years on Ca. boards and now 6 years on a Texas board with most of those years being board president I have never been asked about homeowners list going to another owner. I can only assume that the PMC or PM has handled these requests without the board needing to make the call.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

In California, there are very few HOA Violations that the Attorney General's Office will get involved in.

There are only 17, but out of that 17, one of them is for the member's list:

Corp. Code, Section 8330 Failure to allow inspection and copying of names and addresses of members upon written request.
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-8330
https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/homeowner_assn

Additionally, there are time frames when an Association had to produce records. 10 Business days for the current fiscal year, and 30 calendar days for the previous two fiscal years. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/D/Deadlines-for-Records

But member's lists are special -> "Upon five days' written demand, members can inspect the membership list at reasonable times. (Civ. Code § 5210(b)"

Also Note, you can ask to receive the records in 'electronic form' which would eliminate a 'per page' copying costs. (In reality, all they should have to do is print the file to a pdf and email it to you).

b. Reasonable Fee. The association may charge a reasonable fee for this service based upon the association's actual cost to procure, redact, prepare, and reproduce the requested items. (Civ. Code § 4530(b).) The cost of duplication shall be limited to the direct cost of producing a copy of a record in that electronic format. (Civ. Code § 5205(h).)

I would suggest you write a nice email or letter, pointing them to the Attorney General's web site if they have any questions and to please send you a copy of the members by email. Note, make sure you have a valid reason noted for requesting the list.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesB37 on 10/09/2023 8:44 PM
In California, there are very few HOA Violations that the Attorney General's Office will get involved in.

There are only 17, but out of that 17, one of them is for the member's list:

Corp. Code, Section 8330 Failure to allow inspection and copying of names and addresses of members upon written request.
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-8330
https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/homeowner_assn

Additionally, there are time frames when an Association had to produce records. 10 Business days for the current fiscal year, and 30 calendar days for the previous two fiscal years. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/D/Deadlines-for-Records

But member's lists are special -> "Upon five days' written demand, members can inspect the membership list at reasonable times. (Civ. Code § 5210(b)"

Also Note, you can ask to receive the records in 'electronic form' which would eliminate a 'per page' copying costs. (In reality, all they should have to do is print the file to a pdf and email it to you).

b. Reasonable Fee. The association may charge a reasonable fee for this service based upon the association's actual cost to procure, redact, prepare, and reproduce the requested items. (Civ. Code § 4530(b).) The cost of duplication shall be limited to the direct cost of producing a copy of a record in that electronic format. (Civ. Code § 5205(h).)

I would suggest you write a nice email or letter, pointing them to the Attorney General's web site if they have any questions and to please send you a copy of the members by email. Note, make sure you have a valid reason noted for requesting the list.

The issue ia having access to email addresses with the list, not the list itself.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/09/2023 9:15 PM
The issue ia having access to email addresses with the list, not the list itself.

In my opinion denial of the email addresses is denial of the list.

JamesB37, because of its pithiness and citations (links and references to specific statute sections), your post is outstanding.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

@JamesB37 - thanks for leading me to the sites. The time limitations mentioned has me wondering if it is applicable with respect to the inclusion of the email addresses, as I have already received the membership list. Also, as I have already received the list, presenting a valid reason for requesting the list would seem to be moot.
As @AidylP1 so eloquently said, the issue is not access to the list, but the lack of inclusion of email addresses with the list I received.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 5:44 AM

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/09/2023 9:15 PM
The issue ia having access to email addresses with the list, not the list itself.

In my opinion denial of the email addresses is denial of the list.

JamesB37, because of its pithiness and citations (links and references to specific statute sections), your post is outstanding.

Perhaps someone in here can clarify if the withholding of the email addresses indeed qualifies as denial of the list.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 8:28 AM

Perhaps someone in here can clarify if the withholding of the email addresses indeed qualifies as denial of the list.

It's a matter of logic.

The list is defined to be a document that has x, y and z.

An owner is given a document with x and y.

Does the owner have the list?

No.

If push came to shove, and owner would go to small claims court or the attorney general (I am not sure which at the moment). The owner says the HOA did not give the owner the membership list as described in statute section ___. The HOA says the HOA gave the owner everything required by statute section ___ except for such-and-such. Ruling: The HOA failed to provide the list required by statute section ____.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 8:26 AM
The time limitations mentioned [by JamesB37} has me wondering if it is applicable with respect to the inclusion of the email addresses, as I have already received the membership list.

True or false: You have not received the membership list that the statute section requires the HOA to provide?

True. It's a fact that you do not have the membership list that the statute section requires the HOA to provide.

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 8:26 AM
Also, as I have already received the list, presenting a valid reason for requesting the list would seem to be moot.

As explained above, you have not received the membership list that the statute section requires the HOA to provide.

Providing a proper purpose is not an issue at the moment. But if and when this hits the HOA attorney's desk, it will become one. The competent HOA attorneys inform the owner to describe his or her proper purpose for wanting the list. As long as the reasons given pertain to the owner's interest in the HOA yada, it's usually a formality. But down the road, do not pay this short shrift. A California HOA is likely in its legal rights to ignore a request for a record that does not state a "proper purpose." Why? Because the HOA does not have an obligation to explain the law to owners. Often times it is even legally hazardous to a HOA (and its attorney) to explain the law to an owner who is an 'adverse party.'

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Let me be crystal clear:

The OP appears not to have provided a 'proper purpose' for his records request. California statutes require a statement of this proper purpose as part of the records request. AFAIC This means the HOA has not at present violated any law with regards to this request. If I were the OP, my next step would be to resubmit my request but now, with a proper purpose, as described in Corp Code 8330. Until I did the latter, I would not proceed to IDR, Small Claims, or the attorney general.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 9:29 AM
Let me be crystal clear:

The OP appears not to have provided a 'proper purpose' for his records request. California statutes require a statement of this proper purpose as part of the records request. AFAIC This means the HOA has not at present violated any law with regards to this request. If I were the OP, my next step would be to resubmit my request but now, with a proper purpose, as described in Corp Code 8330. Until I did the latter, I would not proceed to IDR, Small Claims, or the attorney general.

Good suggestion.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 9:29 AM
Let me be crystal clear:

The OP appears not to have provided a 'proper purpose' for his records request. California statutes require a statement of this proper purpose as part of the records request. AFAIC This means the HOA has not at present violated any law with regards to this request. If I were the OP, my next step would be to resubmit my request but now, with a proper purpose, as described in Corp Code 8330. Until I did the latter, I would not proceed to IDR, Small Claims, or the attorney general.

Where does it state the member who requests the membership list must state a reason for requesting the list?
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/M/Membership-Lists

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 8:53 AM

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 8:28 AM

Perhaps someone in here can clarify if the withholding of the email addresses indeed qualifies as denial of the list.

It's a matter of logic.

The list is defined to be a document that has x, y and z.

An owner is given a document with x and y.

Does the owner have the list?

No.

If push came to shove, and owner would go to small claims court or the attorney general (I am not sure which at the moment). The owner says the HOA did not give the owner the membership list as described in statute section ___. The HOA says the HOA gave the owner everything required by statute section ___ except for such-and-such. Ruling: The HOA failed to provide the list required by statute section ____.

You seem to be quite in the know on how this works and I appreciate your input. What is your take on whether this becomes an issue simply between myself and the association manager or if I should involve the board?

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Email Addresses. Beginning January 1, 2020, members' email addresses, which are officially made available to an association, must be added to the membership list information. Civil Code § 5200 defines "Association records" to include membership lists with email addresses. With the steady increase in junk email, identity theft, malware, and hacking, most owners do not want their email addresses made public without their permission. Fortunately, the Davis-Stirling Act allows members to opt out of the membership list pursuant (see below).

A valid reason is required - that is why I wrote that in my post

and it says it right on that web page https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/M/Membership-Lists

Purpose of the Request. The member requesting the list shall state the purpose for the request, which purpose shall be reasonably related to the requester's interest as a member. For example, a member cannot request the list, so he/she can solicit real estate listings. If the board reasonably believes that the information in the list will be used for another purpose, it may deny the member access to the list. If the request is denied, in any subsequent action brought by the member against the association, the association will have the burden to prove that the member would have used the information for purposes unrelated to his interest as a member. (Civ. Code § 5225.)

A corporation has the burden of proving that the member will allow use of the information for purposes unrelated to the person’s interest as a member. ...Mere speculation that the member will use the information for an improper purpose is not sufficient to nullify inspection rights; any suspicion must be based on adequate facts in order to justify denial of inspection. (Tract No. 7260 Association, Inc. v. Parker, internal cites deleted.)

They can talk to whoever they want, bottom line is they only have (5) business days from the time of the written request (email) and you getting access. If you don't have the access or the list after that, send a demand letter, demanding you send the list within X amount of days

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 10:24 AM
What is your take on whether this becomes an issue simply between myself and the association manager or if I should involve the board?

As others have indicated: Legally this is an issue between you and the HOA corporation/association, with said corporation/association being the entity subject to the statutes mentioned above. How I would proceed:

Re-submit the request to the manager. Include a proper purpose. Possibly run by this forum what your proper purpose is. Typical proper purposes:

-- I am considering running for the board and want to write owners to ask them what their main concerns are.

-- I am supporting an owner for the board and want to write owners to ask them what their main concerns are.

-- I want to communicate with owners about how they feel about the new rule about parking spaces.

Include in the request what the law says about email addresses. Include the timeframe. Be polite, and "just the facts." No emotion.

If you want a sample letter, just ask, and I will throw something together. Others may edit what I post and usually, the edits make the letter better.

After the statutory time expires, then I would involve the board.

As others and I noted, the board oversees the HOA's operations (with member input statutorily required under certain circumstances). The board's oversight includes supervising (though not micromanaging) the manager. The board is the manager's boss.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 10:20 AM

Where does it state the member who requests the membership list must state a reason for requesting the list?

The list is a record of the association. When you request the list, you are requesting a record of the association. The proper purpose requirement appears and is discussed at:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Corp-Code-8330
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/H/HOA-Records-Subject-to-Inspection

The regulars at this forum have been reading these statutes for years. It might take a bit of time to get handy using the davis-stirling.com site. Be aware that the search engine for the latter site is the best I have seen.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Oops; James caught the better (or correct?) citation for the "proper purpose requirement." See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5225

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It should be noted that an email address does not equal membership to the HOA. An email address can be generic email address used by any member of the family or residents. You can not determine membership from an email address imo. Example: I use a fake email address for spam or to give to strangers. It has a fake name on it as the owner and it is not a name in address. Example: [email protected] with the name Joe Smo as sender.

This is another reason why email address is not all that reflective of whom you are contacting. I would not depend on email as an official communication option. The HOA is not responsible if it's a fake email address.

Honestly what do you think using an email address will accomplish over an mailed option? Saving money? Not worth it. Besides everyone address is public on their house or mailbox. Why does someone have to give it to you?

Former HOA President

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

The proper procedure is to address your request to the Secretary of the Association, as they, according to the Bylaws, are in charge of the records of the Association. They in turn, if they have a management company, can forward the request, with their approval to the property manager.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/10/2023 10:40 AM
It should be noted that an email address does not equal membership to the HOA. An email address can be generic email address used by any member of the family or residents. You can not determine membership from an email address imo. Example: I use a fake email address for spam or to give to strangers. It has a fake name on it as the owner and it is not a name in address. Example: [email protected] with the name Joe Smo as sender.

This is another reason why email address is not all that reflective of whom you are contacting. I would not depend on email as an official communication option. The HOA is not responsible if it's a fake email address.

Honestly what do you think using an email address will accomplish over an mailed option? Saving money? Not worth it. Besides everyone address is public on their house or mailbox. Why does someone have to give it to you?

A mailing address also does not equal membership. I will read an email before I read snail mail.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 10:40 AM
Oops; James caught the better (or correct?) citation for the "proper purpose requirement." See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5225

As the list has already been provided (but fails to include required information), I do not see why the proper purpose requirement becomes relevant. Is there a clause or code which states a member include a proper purpose for the email section of the membership list, but not for the rest of the list? FYI, I am planning on using the email addresses for association related purposes and not for some unacceptable reason like soliciting business or a real estate listing.

As for the sample letter, yes, please feel free to write up one. Thanks!

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 10:40 AM
Oops; James caught the better (or correct?) citation for the "proper purpose requirement." See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5225

As the list has already been provided (but fails to include required information), I do not see why the proper purpose requirement becomes relevant. Is there a clause or code which states a member include a proper purpose for the email section of the membership list, but not for the rest of the list? FYI, I am planning on using the email addresses for association related purposes and not for some unacceptable reason like soliciting business or a real estate listing.

As for the sample letter, yes, please feel free to write up one. Thanks!

If they don't provide the email addresses - what are you going to do about it? If nothing, then don't bother with the 'proper purpose' requirement. If you plan on filing a complaint with the Attorney General or pursuing this in court, then you need to have followed the law and provide a proper purpose. Your choice.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I will delete or never see what is in my junk folder. Snail mail me something with a stamp on it and a fellow member? Probably read and trash it. If you can not say it in a board meeting I see no issues. I do not do complaining for complaining purposes. If it is a you problem and not a we or me, then what is your point to wrap others in your drama?

Former HOA President

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/10/2023 10:40 AM
It should be noted that an email address does not equal membership to the HOA. An email address can be generic email address used by any member of the family or residents. You can not determine membership from an email address imo. Example: I use a fake email address for spam or to give to strangers. It has a fake name on it as the owner and it is not a name in address. Example: [email protected] with the name Joe Smo as sender.

This is another reason why email address is not all that reflective of whom you are contacting. I would not depend on email as an official communication option. The HOA is not responsible if it's a fake email address.

Honestly what do you think using an email address will accomplish over an mailed option? Saving money? Not worth it. Besides everyone address is public on their house or mailbox. Why does someone have to give it to you?

In California, An Association is required to send out an Annual Budget and Policy statement. One of the required topics is "Contact Information. Notify members of their obligation to provide the association with their contact information. (Civ. Code § 4041.) "

The member list should have the complete property address, a complete mailing address (if different from the property list) and an email address if there is one on file. Of Course, homeowners can 'opt out' and their information will not be on the list at all.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/A/Annual-Budget-Policy-Disclosures

Creating an email group from the member's list can be a very valuable tool, if used properly.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM
As the list has already been provided (but fails to include required information),

For like the third time, the list required by the statute has // not // been provided. The statute makes zero mention of a "partial list" or similar. The HOA either provided the "membership list" described in the statute, or it did not. In this case, the HOA did not. I am speaking part legalese.

Do you understand? If not, tell me what it is that you do not understand.

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM
I do not see why the proper purpose requirement becomes relevant. Is there a clause or code which states a member include a proper purpose for the email section of the membership list, but not for the rest of the list?

Are you reading the code sections cited by me and others? Please read them, with attention to what they say about providing a "purpose."

If there is a word or phrase you do not understand in the posts here or the statute sections cited, ask.

Here is the letter I suggest you submit to the manager:

Dear Homeowners' Association Manager,

Thank you for providing the names and addresses of the owners. However, I requested the "membership list." Pursuant to California Civil Code 5200(a)(9), this list must include "the name, property address, mailing address, email address, as collected by the association in accordance with Section 4041 where applicable, but not including information for members who have opted out pursuant to Section 5220."

I am aware the HOA has the email addresses of many, and possibly all, owners, including mine. I do not believe all owners have opted out. I know I have not.

Pursuant to California Civil Code 5225, my proper purpose for requesting and having the membership list is to _________.

Pursuant to California Civil Code 5210(b)(6) and California Corporations Code 8330(a)(1), within five business days, please provide a time I may inspect and copy the membership list. Alternatively, please email me the "membership list" (again, as defined in the Civil Code cited above).

Thank you for your assistance,

Name
address
email addie
phone number

I advise sending this letter certified mail, return receipt requested. Proof that you made the request on such-and-such date will be important in the event you have to go to the attorney general or small claims court.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

JamesB37, I am going to quit responding to this thread. My hope is that you in particular will continue to respond to the OP. I am getting a little frustrated with the OP "not knowing the answer when told." My further responses are likely to be, ahem, counter-productive.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 12:30 PM

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM
As the list has already been provided (but fails to include required information),

For like the third time, the list required by the statute has // not // been provided. The statute makes zero mention of a "partial list" or similar. The HOA either provided the "membership list" described in the statute, or it did not. In this case, the HOA did not. I am speaking part legalese.

Do you understand? If not, tell me what it is that you do not understand.

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM
I do not see why the proper purpose requirement becomes relevant. Is there a clause or code which states a member include a proper purpose for the email section of the membership list, but not for the rest of the list?

Are you reading the code sections cited by me and others? Please read them, with attention to what they say about providing a "purpose."

If there is a word or phrase you do not understand in the posts here or the statute sections cited, ask.

Here is the letter I suggest you submit to the manager:

Dear Homeowners' Association Manager,

Thank you for providing the names and addresses of the owners. However, I requested the "membership list." Pursuant to California Civil Code 5200(a)(9), this list must include "the name, property address, mailing address, email address, as collected by the association in accordance with Section 4041 where applicable, but not including information for members who have opted out pursuant to Section 5220."

I am aware the HOA has the email addresses of many, and possibly all, owners, including mine. I do not believe all owners have opted out. I know I have not.

Pursuant to California Civil Code 5225, my proper purpose for requesting and having the membership list is to _________.

Pursuant to California Civil Code 5210(b)(6) and California Corporations Code 8330(a)(1), within five business days, please provide a time I may inspect and copy the membership list. Alternatively, please email me the "membership list" (again, as defined in the Civil Code cited above).

Thank you for your assistance,

Name
address
email addie
phone number

I advise sending this letter certified mail, return receipt requested. Proof that you made the request on such-and-such date will be important in the event you have to go to the attorney general or small claims court.

Thanks. Your sample letter is very well crafted. It is obvious you have some good experience with this kind of stuff. I will keep you posted on how it goes.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 12:30 PM

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM
As the list has already been provided (but fails to include required information),

For like the third time, the list required by the statute has // not // been provided. The statute makes zero mention of a "partial list" or similar. The HOA either provided the "membership list" described in the statute, or it did not. In this case, the HOA did not. I am speaking part legalese.

Do you understand? If not, tell me what it is that you do not understand.

Quote:

Posted By JeffT5 on 10/10/2023 11:55 AM
I do not see why the proper purpose requirement becomes relevant. Is there a clause or code which states a member include a proper purpose for the email section of the membership list, but not for the rest of the list?

Are you reading the code sections cited by me and others? Please read them, with attention to what they say about providing a "purpose."

If there is a word or phrase you do not understand in the posts here or the statute sections cited, ask.

Here is the letter I suggest you submit to the manager:

Dear Homeowners' Association Manager,

Thank you for providing the names and addresses of the owners. However, I requested the "membership list." Pursuant to California Civil Code 5200(a)(9), this list must include "the name, property address, mailing address, email address, as collected by the association in accordance with Section 4041 where applicable, but not including information for members who have opted out pursuant to Section 5220."

I am aware the HOA has the email addresses of many, and possibly all, owners, including mine. I do not believe all owners have opted out. I know I have not.

Pursuant to California Civil Code 5225, my proper purpose for requesting and having the membership list is to _________.

Pursuant to California Civil Code 5210(b)(6) and California Corporations Code 8330(a)(1), within five business days, please provide a time I may inspect and copy the membership list. Alternatively, please email me the "membership list" (again, as defined in the Civil Code cited above).

Should be addressed to the Secretary of the Association, C/O the management company

Thank you for your assistance,

Name
address
email addie
phone number

I advise sending this letter certified mail, return receipt requested. Proof that you made the request on such-and-such date will be important in the event you have to go to the attorney general or small claims court.

Should be addressed to the Secretary of the Association, C/O the management company

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 1:02 PM

Should be addressed to the Secretary of the Association, C/O the management company

Have you read the OP's bylaws? I do not have the OP's governing documents in front of me, so I am not going to assume the Secretary is in charge of records. The Bylaws are often silent on the point. For now, addressing this to the manager (an agent of the HOA) is fine in my experience.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I haven't replied in quite a while for the reason Elle won't write further. I, in the many years contributing to this forum have never seen a poster be so resistant and downright rude to friendly helpful and clear replies than Jeff. Everyone who a replies--with one exception-- is knowledgeable. Jeff, however, does not even seem to know that the Board hired the management company and the Board directs the manager. We are all volunteers, Jeff.

As Aidyl & others correctly point out, a letter to the Board would be best; to the secretary alone, maybe better.

I'd completely forgotten that a proper purpose is needed. Thank you, James. Our PM gets maybe 1 request (HOA of 200) a year for the membership list. Shortly in after my retirement from our Board in late '21, I continued to help on the restated CC&Rs that needed 67% approval from voters. Urging these owners to VOTE was greatly helped by sending pleas to vote yes from individual Board members & me on our own dime (to comply with campaign limitations in Civil Code.) USPS mail would have been much more time-consuming and expensive for each of us volunteers.

AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 10/10/2023 1:13 PM

Posted By AidylP1 on 10/10/2023 1:02 PM

Should be addressed to the Secretary of the Association, C/O the management company

Have you read the OP's bylaws? I do not have the OP's governing documents in front of me, so I am not going to assume the Secretary is in charge of records. The Bylaws are often silent on the point. For now, addressing this to the manager (an agent of the HOA) is fine in my experience.

(c) Secretary. The Secretary shall record the votes and keep the minutes of all meetings and proceedings of the Board and of the Members; serve notice of meetings of the Board and of its members; keep the corporate seal of the Association and affix it to all papers requiring such seal; keep, or cause to be kept, appropriate current records showing the Members of the Association, together with their addresses and telephone numbers, and shall perform such other duties as may be required by the Board.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

And in my HOA bylaws: In part, "The secretary shall keep, or cause to be kept, appropriate current records showing the members, together with their addresses." Probably the same in Jeff's HOA as I suspect the verbiage, or similar, comes from CA Corporations Codes.

JeffT5 (California)
Posts: 26

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/10/2023 1:30 PM
I haven't replied in quite a while for the reason Elle won't write further. I, in the many years contributing to this forum have never seen a poster be so resistant and downright rude to friendly helpful and clear replies than Jeff. Everyone who a replies--with one exception-- is knowledgeable. Jeff, however, does not even seem to know that the Board hired the management company and the Board directs the manager. We are all volunteers, Jeff.

As Aidyl & others correctly point out, a letter to the Board would be best; to the secretary alone, maybe better.

I'd completely forgotten that a proper purpose is needed. Thank you, James. Our PM gets maybe 1 request (HOA of 200) a year for the membership list. Shortly in after my retirement from our Board in late '21, I continued to help on the restated CC&Rs that needed 67% approval from voters. Urging these owners to VOTE was greatly helped by sending pleas to vote yes from individual Board members & me on our own dime (to comply with campaign limitations in Civil Code.) USPS mail would have been much more time-consuming and expensive for each of us volunteers.

I apologize if anything I have said has come across as rude. It is not my intent to come here to argue or to be rude to anyone. I was merely pointing out what seemed to be improper compliance by the management company. In our community, the proper chain of communication is to contact the management company, who if necessary then contacts the board. Most issues are resolved between the homeowner and the management company without the board getting directly involved.