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TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Board has obviously had more secret meetings because they already have an Inspector of Elections proposal for a member election re assessments. And they call it a special assessment when it would be a regular assessment. Agenda item includes: "board approval of proposal submitted by xxxxxxxx to provide secret ballot mailing and tabulation of results as required by section 4070 of the D/S Act."
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Teri
To me our annual dues assessment and is a regular assessment which can be done by the BOD alone with some restrictions (such as once a year at budget time, etc.) but does not require owner approval.. A Special Assessment is one other then our regular assessment and it would require 2/3rds of all owners approving.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
In CA they can increase regular assessments 20% and special assessments 5% without a member vote. Our member vote threshold is 51%.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173
Posted:
IMO, the board is within their authority for the special assessment as I am sure the cost is not greater than 5% of the annual expenses of the association.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 6:02 AM
Board has obviously had more secret meetings because they already have an Inspector of Elections proposal for a member election re assessments. And they call it a special assessment when it would be a regular assessment. Agenda item includes: "board approval of proposal submitted by xxxxxxxx to provide secret ballot mailing and tabulation of results as required by section 4070 of the D/S Act."
Was this on the agenda for an upcoming board meeting?

If so I am not convinced a violation exists, on account of the contract formation rule.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 10/07/2023 1:24 PM
IMO, the board is within their authority for the special assessment as I am sure the cost is not greater than 5% of the annual expenses of the association.

It's not a special assessment.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173
Posted:
How do you know it's a regular assessment, not a special assessment? Is the increase greater than 20%? What is the aapproval process?
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 1:30 PM
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 6:02 AM
Board has obviously had more secret meetings because they already have an Inspector of Elections proposal for a member election re assessments. And they call it a special assessment when it would be a regular assessment. Agenda item includes: "board approval of proposal submitted by xxxxxxxx to provide secret ballot mailing and tabulation of results as required by section 4070 of the D/S Act."
Was this on the agenda for an upcoming board meeting?

If so I am not convinced a violation exists, on account of the contract formation rule.

There has not been a board meeting of any kind since the open board meeting May 6. Between then and now, outside of any meeting, they have decided to have an election to increase assessments to a specific amount 58% higher and to request at least one proposal from an inspector, and received the proposal. Meeting is next week to approve election.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 1:38 PM
to request at least one proposal from an inspector, and received the proposal. Meeting is next week to approve election.
Sounds like contract formation to me. Contract formation may be done in executive session. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Executive-Session-Meetings
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 1:43 PM
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 1:38 PM
to request at least one proposal from an inspector, and received the proposal. Meeting is next week to approve election.
Sounds like contract formation to me. Contract formation may be done in executive session. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Executive-Session-Meetings

That's why it was secret meetings. There was no executive session and the meeting next week will approve the proposal.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173
Posted:
Here comes another to Small Claims Court!
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 1:57 PM
there was no executive session and the meeting next week will approve the proposal.
I do not see the evidence that there was no executive session. Plus the board might have shared information by email (which is now lawful per the August appeals court decision).
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/06/19/hoa-homefront-when-can-a-board-close-a-meeting/

The “contracts” subject is the most misused executive session topic. Civil Code Section 4935(a) permits executive session discussions of “matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties.”

Many boards and even HOA attorneys overlook “formation,” and focusing only on “contracts,” erroneously expanding the use of closed session. “Formation” means the negotiation of the contract, not the decision identifying the vendor with which the HOA intends to form a contract. The selection of the preferred vendor should be in open session and then the discussion of the contract terms (including counter-offer and negotiation strategy) should be in executive session. Finally, budgets are not contracts.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 2:30 PM
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 1:57 PM
there was no executive session and the meeting next week will approve the proposal.
I do not see the evidence that there was no executive session. Plus the board might have shared information by email (which is now lawful per the August appeals court decision).

The evidence there was no executive session is that there was no notice of any executive session. The board decided to hold an election to increase assessments by 58% outside of a meeting. The board decided to contract with an inspector of elections and settled on a particular one - outside of a meeting. I guess you could argue that one or two directors came up with the whole thing but if no other director says anything before they vote to approve the contract, they were likely holding secret meetings.

And if they don't remove my name from the draft minutes, they will be in contempt of court which is moving into criminal territory.
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173
Posted:
As it appears you can't change the behavior of your board, what is the end game coming to this forum with your grievances?
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 10/07/2023 3:35 PM
As it appears you can't change the behavior of your board, what is the end game coming to this forum with your grievances?

Look at the top of the page again, remember last time, and in the yellow banner you will see "to share ideas and learn"

I have learned quite a bit from Terri and her experience dealing with a rogue board, secret meetings, action without meeting, small claims court experience, etc. I appreciate her posting things like this because our board does a lot of the same thing.

What I have learned from you Lydia (Aidyl), is that your a troll...
AidylP1 (California)
Posts: 173
Posted:
The last thing I am is a troll, I have zero respect for people bitching from the cheap seats.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AidylP1 on 10/07/2023 4:33 PM
The last thing I am is a troll, I have zero respect for people bitching from the cheap seats.

There's lots of sunshine in the bleachers, something bad boards don't like.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 10/07/2023 2:38 PM
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/06/19/hoa-homefront-when-can-a-board-close-a-meeting/

The “contracts” subject is the most misused executive session topic. Civil Code Section 4935(a) permits executive session discussions of “matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties.”

Many boards and even HOA attorneys overlook “formation,” and focusing only on “contracts,” erroneously expanding the use of closed session. “Formation” means the negotiation of the contract, not the decision identifying the vendor with which the HOA intends to form a contract. The selection of the preferred vendor should be in open session and then the discussion of the contract terms (including counter-offer and negotiation strategy) should be in executive session. Finally, budgets are not contracts.
I see way too much potential overlap (between formation chatter and selection chatter) to argue that the board violated the statute here.

For all this forum knows, this same vendor was used in the past.

I think it's too soon to be asserting the board violated the statute section here. I get that TerriS6 wants it to be so. But if I were the small claims court judge, I would be asking more questions.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 10/07/2023 4:20 PM
Posted By AidylP1 on 10/07/2023 3:35 PM
As it appears you can't change the behavior of your board, what is the end game coming to this forum with your grievances?


Look at the top of the page again, remember last time, and in the yellow banner you will see "to share ideas and learn"

I have learned quite a bit from Terri and her experience dealing with a rogue board, secret meetings, action without meeting, small claims court experience, etc. I appreciate her posting things like this because our board does a lot of the same thing.

What I have learned from you Lydia (Aidyl), is that your a troll...

I've asked Aidyl's question twice now. The first time, Terri said all she wants is for the board to run the association according to its documents. That makes sense, but it hasn't happened, even after the last lawsuit. We know what Einstein said about the insanity of doing the same thing and expcting different results.

Ultimately, the homeowners are the ones who will have to say enough and vote out this board or at least insist on a therapist to have a few meetings with the board and Terri to hash out their differences once and for all. Right now, the board's failure not to have open meetings in 4 months is a bigger problem. It could be because of this assessment thing or something else, but since Terri is aware of what they're talking about, it does look to be a big secret.

I'd love to know just what the homeowners feel about all this and for some reason, a majority don't seem to feel as Terri, otherwise, I would think talk of a recall would have come up by now, but it hasn't. I'd also think those who support what she's doing would come to board meetings or talk up these people zbd say so. Doesn't sound like that's happened either.

At this point, I fear everyone's indifferent - the board says "it doesn't matter what we do, Terri will sue us" and other homeowners don't care, or are afraid to say anything, or have no problem with what the board is doing and think Terri just wants attention or really wants a seat on the board. The question is which opinion has the majority of homeowners because unless and until you motivate enough people to join the cause, we'll keep seeing these conversations.

Then again, speaking truth to power is never easy, but that doesn't mean you can't change up your tactics. That's required if you want to see lasting change. In fact James, I recall you had a number of conversations about your board, you and some of your neighbors got together and ran for seats and I recall you said you and a few others won, but then things fell apart because of how tbe fits was counted or something- has that resolved itself?


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 4:41 PM
Posted By JamesB37 on 10/07/2023 2:38 PM
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/06/19/hoa-homefront-when-can-a-board-close-a-meeting/

The “contracts” subject is the most misused executive session topic. Civil Code Section 4935(a) permits executive session discussions of “matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties.”

Many boards and even HOA attorneys overlook “formation,” and focusing only on “contracts,” erroneously expanding the use of closed session. “Formation” means the negotiation of the contract, not the decision identifying the vendor with which the HOA intends to form a contract. The selection of the preferred vendor should be in open session and then the discussion of the contract terms (including counter-offer and negotiation strategy) should be in executive session. Finally, budgets are not contracts.
I see way too much potential overlap (between formation chatter and selection chatter) to argue that the board violated the statute here.

For all this forum knows, this same vendor was used in the past.

I think it's too soon to be asserting the board violated the statute section here. I get that TerriS6 wants it to be so. But if I were the small claims court judge, I would be asking more questions.

This is not related to small claims.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 10/07/2023 4:53 PM
Posted By JamesB37 on 10/07/2023 4:20 PM
Posted By AidylP1 on 10/07/2023 3:35 PM
As it appears you can't change the behavior of your board, what is the end game coming to this forum with your grievances?


Look at the top of the page again, remember last time, and in the yellow banner you will see "to share ideas and learn"

I have learned quite a bit from Terri and her experience dealing with a rogue board, secret meetings, action without meeting, small claims court experience, etc. I appreciate her posting things like this because our board does a lot of the same thing.

What I have learned from you Lydia (Aidyl), is that your a troll...


I've asked Aidyl's question twice now. The first time, Terri said all she wants is for the board to run the association according to its documents. That makes sense, but it hasn't happened, even after the last lawsuit. We know what Einstein said about the insanity of doing the same thing and expcting different results.

Ultimately, the homeowners are the ones who will have to say enough and vote out this board or at least insist on a therapist to have a few meetings with the board and Terri to hash out their differences once and for all. Right now, the board's failure not to have open meetings in 4 months is a bigger problem. It could be because of this assessment thing or something else, but since Terri is aware of what they're talking about, it does look to be a big secret.

I'd love to know just what the homeowners feel about all this and for some reason, a majority don't seem to feel as Terri, otherwise, I would think talk of a recall would have come up by now, but it hasn't. I'd also think those who support what she's doing would come to board meetings or talk up these people zbd say so. Doesn't sound like that's happened either.

At this point, I fear everyone's indifferent - the board says "it doesn't matter what we do, Terri will sue us" and other homeowners don't care, or are afraid to say anything, or have no problem with what the board is doing and think Terri just wants attention or really wants a seat on the board. The question is which opinion has the majority of homeowners because unless and until you motivate enough people to join the cause, we'll keep seeing these conversations.

Then again, speaking truth to power is never easy, but that doesn't mean you can't change up your tactics. That's required if you want to see lasting change. In fact James, I recall you had a number of conversations about your board, you and some of your neighbors got together and ran for seats and I recall you said you and a few others won, but then things fell apart because of how tbe fits was counted or something- has that resolved itself?


There have been many improvements in the association since court. Many owners support what we have done.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
And yet after all these lawsuits, no one has thought to say. "I'm really getting tired 9f this board getting sued and losing because they refuse to act right. Why is anyone still re-electing them over and over? It's time for a change." Ponder the quote from Stevie Wonder in my signature - where is everyone else in this fight or whatever it is?

Perhaps "many homeowners" do like what youre doing, but don't you think a little more than "thanks" would be more effective ? How many come to board meetings and tell the board that they like what you're doing - and why won't they straighten up and fly right? Has anyone talked to you about running for a seat ?
Why haven't YOU - surely all those homeowners would back you, wouldn't they? Or are they being polite?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 5:01 PM
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 4:41 PM
Posted By JamesB37 on 10/07/2023 2:38 PM
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/06/19/hoa-homefront-when-can-a-board-close-a-meeting/

The “contracts” subject is the most misused executive session topic. Civil Code Section 4935(a) permits executive session discussions of “matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties.”

Many boards and even HOA attorneys overlook “formation,” and focusing only on “contracts,” erroneously expanding the use of closed session. “Formation” means the negotiation of the contract, not the decision identifying the vendor with which the HOA intends to form a contract. The selection of the preferred vendor should be in open session and then the discussion of the contract terms (including counter-offer and negotiation strategy) should be in executive session. Finally, budgets are not contracts.
I see way too much potential overlap (between formation chatter and selection chatter) to argue that the board violated the statute here.

For all this forum knows, this same vendor was used in the past.

I think it's too soon to be asserting the board violated the statute section here. I get that TerriS6 wants it to be so. But if I were the small claims court judge, I would be asking more questions.


This is not related to small claims.
If you are asserting secret meetings violating California statutes occurred, then a test of your claims' merits is whether they would survive small claims court.

There is still the question of whether an exchange, without a vote, occurred by email. If so, then per the August appeals court ruling, then this was not a board meeting and no violation of the statute occurred.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 9:43 PM
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/07/2023 5:01 PM
Posted By ElleN on 10/07/2023 4:41 PM
Posted By JamesB37 on 10/07/2023 2:38 PM
https://www.ocregister.com/2021/06/19/hoa-homefront-when-can-a-board-close-a-meeting/

The “contracts” subject is the most misused executive session topic. Civil Code Section 4935(a) permits executive session discussions of “matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties.”

Many boards and even HOA attorneys overlook “formation,” and focusing only on “contracts,” erroneously expanding the use of closed session. “Formation” means the negotiation of the contract, not the decision identifying the vendor with which the HOA intends to form a contract. The selection of the preferred vendor should be in open session and then the discussion of the contract terms (including counter-offer and negotiation strategy) should be in executive session. Finally, budgets are not contracts.
I see way too much potential overlap (between formation chatter and selection chatter) to argue that the board violated the statute here.

For all this forum knows, this same vendor was used in the past.

I think it's too soon to be asserting the board violated the statute section here. I get that TerriS6 wants it to be so. But if I were the small claims court judge, I would be asking more questions.


This is not related to small claims.
If you are asserting secret meetings violating California statutes occurred, then a test of your claims' merits is whether they would survive small claims court.

There is still the question of whether an exchange, without a vote, occurred by email. If so, then per the August appeals court ruling, then this was not a board meeting and no violation of the statute occurred.


No claim is contemplated. If I took action on every one of their violations, I would be a lot busier.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 10/07/2023 8:29 PM
And yet after all these lawsuits, no one has thought to say. "I'm really getting tired 9f this board getting sued and losing because they refuse to act right. Why is anyone still re-electing them over and over? It's time for a change." Ponder the quote from Stevie Wonder in my signature - where is everyone else in this fight or whatever it is?

Perhaps "many homeowners" do like what youre doing, but don't you think a little more than "thanks" would be more effective ? How many come to board meetings and tell the board that they like what you're doing - and why won't they straighten up and fly right? Has anyone talked to you about running for a seat ?
Why haven't YOU - surely all those homeowners would back you, wouldn't they? Or are they being polite?

They do speak up at meetings and court and have talked to me about running for a seat. I never ask neighbors to get involved nor will I.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 10/07/2023 8:29 PM
And yet after all these lawsuits, no one has thought to say. "I'm really getting tired 9f this board getting sued and losing because they refuse to act right. Why is anyone still re-electing them over and over? It's time for a change." Ponder the quote from Stevie Wonder in my signature - where is everyone else in this fight or whatever it is?

Perhaps "many homeowners" do like what youre doing, but don't you think a little more than "thanks" would be more effective ? How many come to board meetings and tell the board that they like what you're doing - and why won't they straighten up and fly right? Has anyone talked to you about running for a seat ?
Why haven't YOU - surely all those homeowners would back you, wouldn't they? Or are they being polite?


Yup.

Regardless of what I or the law or the interwebs think about all of this, Terri's course of action to date has not been effective... assuming that the goal was getting the board to comply with the law.

There are two ways to get a board to behave. Either the board chooses to change course, or the homeowners change the makeup of the board. Anything else is just talk.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
We have a dictatorship bent on keeping power by any means. What have we accomplished by the only means possible, going to court? What do we have now because of the small claims actions that we never could have accomplished without it?

Election rules
Real elections
A reserve account
A reserve study
Detailed agendas
Executive sessions
Notice of executive sessions
Collectible assessments
Collectible liens
Better compliance with open meeting act
Adding Open Forum to the agenda
More timely delivery of budget and annual policy statement
I'm sure there are some things I'm forgetting
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 10/08/2023 5:10 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 10/07/2023 8:29 PM
And yet after all these lawsuits, no one has thought to say. "I'm really getting tired 9f this board getting sued and losing because they refuse to act right. Why is anyone still re-electing them over and over? It's time for a change." Ponder the quote from Stevie Wonder in my signature - where is everyone else in this fight or whatever it is?

Perhaps "many homeowners" do like what youre doing, but don't you think a little more than "thanks" would be more effective ? How many come to board meetings and tell the board that they like what you're doing - and why won't they straighten up and fly right? Has anyone talked to you about running for a seat ?
Why haven't YOU - surely all those homeowners would back you, wouldn't they? Or are they being polite?


Yup.

Regardless of what I or the law or the interwebs think about all of this, Terri's course of action to date has not been effective... assuming that the goal was getting the board to comply with the law.

There are two ways to get a board to behave. Either the board chooses to change course, or the homeowners change the makeup of the board. Anything else is just talk.

You are unequivocally mistaken. Please see my previous post.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
There are members who wish the association was bankrupt so the board would have no more funds to harass members they don't like.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/08/2023 6:05 AM
There are members who wish the association was bankrupt so the board would have no more funds to harass members they don't like.

And there you have it - the primary problem in this community is the homeowners. Nthey like what you're doing, but won't vote out the board for whatever reason. As for the ones who wish the association went bankrupt so the board wouldn't have the money to "harass members they don't like?" Has someone told them the main reason this is going on and will continue unless THEY step up? Do they understand that if the association goes bankrupt, the board won't be tge only people who are affected??

Bad board members don't fall out of the sky or hatch from an alien pod (although there are a few that make you wonder). They are homeowners like you and 5 or 7 peopke can't dominate like this unless homeowners allow it. Just like those dingbats in Congress - you can weep and wail about them all you want, but someone must be happy with them because they got elected. Of course they'll do what's necessary to stay in power- no one's given them a reason not to. This especially applies to the ones who don't vote - their action indicates they don't care what happens or who lets it happen.

But, to quote Cathy from another conversation- not my circus, not my monkeys. Continue to sue and sue again, if you wish- your time and money. Good luck with your next lawsuit.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with you suing - you should hold the board accountable because they gave a huge role in promoting the quality of life and financial stability of the community where they and they live. Too bad no one else gets that because filing lawsuit after lawsuit isn't getting it done.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Bernie Madoff had a following too.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
And people lost a shitload of money from his Ponzi scheme, (I don't think everyone got all their money back), he confessed to his sons, they told authorities, an investigation ensued, he went to jail and died there. One son hung himself, another went to prison and the third died of cancer.

So what's your point?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
All the court cases were completely avoidable if the board didn't have the practice of ignoring member correspondence, if the board didn't refuse to communicate. All the cases were clearcut breaches of plain, easy to read, law. Otherwise I wouldn't have won all of them. All they had to do was communicate and read the instructions.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 10/08/2023 7:29 AM
And people lost a shitload of money from his Ponzi scheme, (I don't think everyone got all their money back), he confessed to his sons, they told authorities, an investigation ensued, he went to jail and died there. One son hung himself, another went to prison and the third died of cancer.

So what's your point?

My point is: people believed him.
Why don't members vote out our board? Old friends. The believe the pitch. They believe the spin. They have money to risk.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 10/08/2023 7:35 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 10/08/2023 7:29 AM
And people lost a shitload of money from his Ponzi scheme, (I don't think everyone got all their money back), he confessed to his sons, they told authorities, an investigation ensued, he went to jail and died there. One son hung himself, another went to prison and the third died of cancer.

So what's your point?


My point is: people believed him.
Why don't members vote out our board? Old friends. The believe the pitch. They believe the spin. They have money to risk.

That is exactly what I found happening with our Board. The President signed a 2-year contract extension for our PMC, which is owned by his friend. Our Bylaws clearly state the limit for these types of contracts are 1-year unless there is a majority vote by the membership. I asked one of the board members why he went along with it and he said he didn't know any better, he doesn't have the time to memorize the Bylaws and he trusted the PMC and the President...

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