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DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
I am President of our HOA Board, with an ARC appeal hearing coming up. The individual who was denied ARC approval and has made an appeal to the board is a fellow who has spent two years very publicly defaming myself, my friends, my wife, and even my daughter.

My sense is that I should probably recuse myself. I know this is suggested if a board member has a potential financial stake in the decision, but is it also recommended in this kind of situation? I don't want to be accused of being biased, but I also don't want to be accused of shirking my responsibilities.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
From your posts here my bet is that you can be objective and in fact will take more care to get the decision right. If I were you, I would not recuse. And yes, I tend to think the fiduciary duty here for you personally is not to recuse.

Let Owner LameBrain take any Board rejection of the ARC application to court.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
I you are going to make money off the ARC approval or denial then yes I would recuse myself.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It should be established that most of the time the President does not cast the deciding vote. It does not necessarily work that way. Majority rules are at play here. If you are out voted then so be it the decision. You can obtain from voting and have that recorded. That way when they demand the vote count it shows you obtained. You did not make the final decision. Just delivered and enforcing it.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/20/2023 8:30 AM
I am President of our HOA Board, with an ARC appeal hearing coming up. The individual who was denied ARC approval and has made an appeal to the board is a fellow who has spent two years very publicly defaming myself, my friends, my wife, and even my daughter.

My sense is that I should probably recuse myself. I know this is suggested if a board member has a potential financial stake in the decision, but is it also recommended in this kind of situation? I don't want to be accused of being biased, but I also don't want to be accused of shirking my responsibilities.

You will be accused whether or not you participate. Unless your docs or the law has something to guide you, go for it.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I would recuse myself. Even if you might not cast a vote unless there was a tie-breaker, as Melissa noted, the appearance of favoritism (or retaliation in this case) can be just as bad as the reality. This homeowner would probably find a way to claim you influenced the vote if he loses, so skip it. He may still try to criticize you, but how can he respond if you say chose to recuse yourself because of past conflicts and want to ensure fairness - especially if everyone's heard him barking about you and your family?

Just for shits and grins, I sort of hope one of your board colleagues asked him point-blank about his behavior over the past two years. Is he filing this appeal because he KNOWS he's wrong, but wants to find something else to use against you? That would be fun to listen to (but if you recuse yourself, don't go to the hearing - you'll hear about it sooner or later).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/20/2023 9:36 AM
I would recuse myself. Even if you might not cast a vote unless there was a tie-breaker, as Melissa noted, the appearance of favoritism (or retaliation in this case) can be just as bad as the reality.
Often owners defame the entire board of being incompetent, mismanaging owners' funds, and more. Should the entire board recuse itself?

I do not see how one owner not liking a director, and expressing this dislike, is grounds for recusal.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I think it is the best option for the circumstances. The president is often looked upon as the decision maker. They tend to be reflected that the HOA decision is the President not board or owners. It is perception.

I would just obstain my vote. That neither denies or approves. A president really does not have 'dictator' powers. They may have tie breaking at most.

Former HOA President
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
David,
What we do not know here really matters IMO. Are you going to be the deciding vote or is his request out of line and the rest of the board will probably vote against the appeal?

As Melissa stated I would only vote in case of a tie, and I would also let your conscience be your guide. As with these types of matters it probably won't change his feelings for you either way. I always try to do the right thing no matter who the appeal is coming from.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 09/20/2023 11:46 AM
David,
What we do not know here really matters IMO. Are you going to be the deciding vote or is his request out of line and the rest of the board will probably vote against the appeal?

As Melissa stated I would only vote in case of a tie, and I would also let your conscience be your guide. As with these types of matters it probably won't change his feelings for you either way. I always try to do the right thing no matter who the appeal is coming from.


It will almost certainly be 5-0 against as his request (a shed) is clearly not allowed and has been turned down 100% of the time over the years. I just joined the board in August, but from what people on the ARC have told me he often makes requests that are clearly not allowed, as if for the sport of it.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 09/20/2023 11:46 AM
David,
What we do not know here really matters IMO. Are you going to be the deciding vote or is his request out of line and the rest of the board will probably vote against the appeal?

As Melissa stated I would only vote in case of a tie, and I would also let your conscience be your guide. As with these types of matters it probably won't change his feelings for you either way. I always try to do the right thing no matter who the appeal is coming from.


It will almost certainly be 5-0 against as his request (a shed) is clearly not allowed and has been turned down 100% of the time over the years. I just joined the board in August, but from what people on the ARC have told me he often makes requests that are clearly not allowed, as if for the sport of it.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 09/20/2023 10:41 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 09/20/2023 9:36 AM
Often owners defame the entire board of being incompetent, mismanaging owners' funds, and more. Should the entire board recuse itself?

I do not see how one owner not liking a director, and expressing this dislike, is grounds for recusal.

Of course not, but you know people are messy and will say and do all sorts of stupid stuff. These days, I put nothing past the idiocy of the public and this owner has already expressed his dislike for the OP. I can see the hearing getting disrupted by the guy going on and on about something he thinks the president did/didn't/should/shouldn't do, bringing up ish that happened two years ago, which has nothing to do with the ARC denial or appeal. Pretty soon, nothing gets done and people still go home mad.

If the OP isn't there, the homeowner may still squawk and show his ass, but that sort of thing isn't as fun when the object of your dislike isn't there to hear it. Instead, the story gets out about him showing his behind vs. the president having the grace to step away precisely so this owner can focus on his ARC instead of a personal beef. It'll even be more fun if the guy loses anyway - he won't be able to blame the OP if he wasn't even there.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/20/2023 1:26 PM
Posted By ElleN on 09/20/2023 10:41 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 09/20/2023 9:36 AM
Often owners defame the entire board of being incompetent, mismanaging owners' funds, and more. Should the entire board recuse itself?

I do not see how one owner not liking a director, and expressing this dislike, is grounds for recusal.

Of course not, but you know people are messy and will say and do all sorts of stupid stuff. These days, I put nothing past the idiocy of the public and this owner has already expressed his dislike for the OP. I can see the hearing getting disrupted by the guy going on and on about something he thinks the president did/didn't/should/shouldn't do, bringing up ish that happened two years ago, which has nothing to do with the ARC denial or appeal. Pretty soon, nothing gets done and people still go home mad.

If the OP isn't there, the homeowner may still squawk and show his ass, but that sort of thing isn't as fun when the object of your dislike isn't there to hear it. Instead, the story gets out about him showing his behind vs. the president having the grace to step away precisely so this owner can focus on his ARC instead of a personal beef. It'll even be more fun if the guy loses anyway - he won't be able to blame the OP if he wasn't even there.
I do not understand why you would accommodate an owner who is being a jerk. So what if he spouts off, going off-topic, at the hearing. The President or whoever is presiding at the ARC hearing cuts the guy off. If he goes off-topic, then end of hearing, and the board proceeds to executive session.

I think whether the owner blames the OP or not is not relevant. The owner still has to prove that his application is valid under the covenants.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 09/20/2023 1:26 PM
Posted By ElleN on 09/20/2023 10:41 AM
Posted By SheliaH on 09/20/2023 9:36 AM
Often owners defame the entire board of being incompetent, mismanaging owners' funds, and more. Should the entire board recuse itself?

I do not see how one owner not liking a director, and expressing this dislike, is grounds for recusal.


Of course not, but you know people are messy and will say and do all sorts of stupid stuff. These days, I put nothing past the idiocy of the public and this owner has already expressed his dislike for the OP. I can see the hearing getting disrupted by the guy going on and on about something he thinks the president did/didn't/should/shouldn't do, bringing up ish that happened two years ago, which has nothing to do with the ARC denial or appeal. Pretty soon, nothing gets done and people still go home mad.

If the OP isn't there, the homeowner may still squawk and show his ass, but that sort of thing isn't as fun when the object of your dislike isn't there to hear it. Instead, the story gets out about him showing his behind vs. the president having the grace to step away precisely so this owner can focus on his ARC instead of a personal beef. It'll even be more fun if the guy loses anyway - he won't be able to blame the OP if he wasn't even there.


That is a pretty good summary of my thoughts. He seems to be an unstable guy, and potentially violent. I think if I'm not there it would remove fuel for his fire, and I can't imagine it would change the vote. But I'm not sure if any of this is a good enough reason to abstain. I came here hoping people would 100% support my recusal, but that isn't the case so now I believe I might need to suck it up.

If I abruptly stop posting you will know why!
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I will add: I think recusing in this case sets a terrible precedent. What about the next owner (call her Owner Regina) who comes along and has said mean things about Director Jane Doe and her family? If a recusal was done in a prior instance, but not this new one, and the Board vote rejects the ARC application but was close, now Owner Regina can claim selective enforcement.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am 100% for you not voting and abstaining your vote. That is an option. It is not just yeah or nah. You can say I obstain. You have to preside over the meeting. Make sure it goes in the notes. How many votes yeah or nah or abstained. That is official HOA document that can be used in court if need be.

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 09/20/2023 1:47 PM
I will add: I think recusing in this case sets a terrible precedent. What about the next owner (call her Owner Regina) who comes along and has said mean things about Director Jane Doe and her family? If a recusal was done in a prior instance, but not this new one, and the Board vote rejects the ARC application but was close, now Owner Regina can claim selective enforcement.

I agree. Do not recuse yourself.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
David and Others,
Typically, the way an appeal is handled in most cases, and I see no reason why this should be different. The person making the appeal goes into an Executive session with the board behind closed doors. He is given time to state his/her reasons for the objection and at that point if the board has any questions regarding the specifics of the remarks, they are asked at that point and answered. You then thank them for coming to the meeting and let them know that they will be informed the result of the appeal by email with 14 days.

The board meets to discuss directly after the owner leaves the room and takes the vote. The PMC then mails the letter, and the case is closed.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/20/2023 1:44 PM
He seems to be an unstable guy, and potentially violent. I think if I'm not there it would remove fuel for his fire, and I can't imagine it would change the vote. But I'm not sure if any of this is a good enough reason to abstain. I came here hoping people would 100% support my recusal, but that isn't the case so now I believe I might need to suck it up.
"Suck it up" got my attention. Are you possibly dreading this? I think "dread" is expensive to one's psyche. If you do not think you can ignore any off-topic rant of this owner, and you think you might struggle to stay cool, focused on the application and focused on keeping order as President, then this becomes a different issue. You could let someone else preside. Or if you feel physically threatened, then I would support your sitting this one out. But if the harassment is so bad that you are having a hard time performing your official duties, then in my opinion it is time to bring the HOA attorney in for advice. Because no director should feel physically threatened.

Anyone thinking it's okay to try to make a point by being physically threatening is out of line.

If you manage to go forward, at the ARC hearing take pride in being poker-faced and calm, hands folded in front of you on the desk or taking notes, and to the point, like the best mayors presiding at City Council meetings, or judges presiding at trial, for example.

1.5 cents.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Thinking out loud here. I see arguments on both sides of this.

Do Not Recuse

* A board member's duty to vote on all matter put before the board.

* If you do not benefit financially from the outcome of the decision, you are not obligated to recuse yourself.

* Precedent: You don't want to allow any homeowner to bully the board into a favorable decision or to harm the community's ability to elect board members because nobody wants to get on Mr. Bully's bad side.

Do Recuse

* If you believe that this person is a danger to you or your family, you shouldn't put yourself in harm's way.

* It sounds like the appeal will not be granted in any case. so your vote will not affect the outcome of the decision.

I think this issue is bigger than the usual ARC decision and should also be addressed outside of the appeal process. Is the person a danger to the community? Will he simmer down if you do not vote, or will be pick a different target? At what point should attorneys or even law enforcement get involved (cease and desist letter, legal complaint for harassment, etc.)?

The bottom line is that won't matter what you do in this particular case, but there are bigger picture issues.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 09/20/2023 2:09 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/20/2023 1:44 PM
He seems to be an unstable guy, and potentially violent. I think if I'm not there it would remove fuel for his fire, and I can't imagine it would change the vote. But I'm not sure if any of this is a good enough reason to abstain. I came here hoping people would 100% support my recusal, but that isn't the case so now I believe I might need to suck it up.
"Suck it up" got my attention. Are you possibly dreading this? I think "dread" is expensive to one's psyche. If you do not think you can ignore any off-topic rant of this owner, and you think you might struggle to stay cool, focused on the application and focused on keeping order as President, then this becomes a different issue. You could let someone else preside. Or if you feel physically threatened, then I would support your sitting this one out. But if the harassment is so bad that you are having a hard time performing your official duties, then in my opinion it is time to bring the HOA attorney in for advice. Because no director should feel physically threatened.

Anyone thinking it's okay to try to make a point by being physically threatening is out of line.

If you manage to go forward, at the ARC hearing take pride in being poker-faced and calm, hands folded in front of you on the desk or taking notes, and to the point, like the best mayors presiding at City Council meetings, or judges presiding at trial, for example.

1.5 cents.


For clarification, I am not concerned about my own ability to maintain my cool. I have taken pride in my ability over the last couple of years to ignore all of his personal attacks - I have never posted on Social Media to answer his smears, and I have never once replied to any of the hostile text messages he has sent. Others in the community have marveled at my stoicism. And I should point out almost none of this has to do with HOA business, he has hated me at a deep personal level for longer than I have even known who he is - and his smears are startling in their ugliness. His hatred is the kind that I honestly believe can only come from a deeply disturbed person.

Coincidentally, just last night the guy was arrested for an assault he committed on one of our fellow residents. The community genuinely fears this man, and for good reason. So, sure, I dread the meeting at several levels. But ultimately I have to do what is right, and I'm struggling to decide what that is.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 09/21/2023 5:27 AM
For clarification, I am not concerned about my own ability to maintain my cool. I have taken pride in my ability over the last couple of years to ignore all of his personal attacks - I have never posted on Social Media to answer his smears, and I have never once replied to any of the hostile text messages he has sent. Others in the community have marveled at my stoicism. And I should point out almost none of this has to do with HOA business, he has hated me at a deep personal level for longer than I have even known who he is - and his smears are startling in their ugliness. His hatred is the kind that I honestly believe can only come from a deeply disturbed person.

Coincidentally, just last night the guy was arrested for an assault he committed on one of our fellow residents. The community genuinely fears this man, and for good reason. So, sure, I dread the meeting at several levels. But ultimately I have to do what is right, and I'm struggling to decide what that is.
I am saying how I would respond, based on observing boards for over two decades; observing HOA litigation for about 15 years now; experience as a director (two years). The litigation included a restraining order against a hostile and aggressive owner.

For liability reasons at this point I would motion to have the attorney review the situation and advise. I happen to think a cease and desist letter to stop this man from communicating directly with the board is appropriate. All communications must go through the manager. The attorney should warn the owner that harassment of the manager, any director, or any other agent of the HOA will result in legal action.

This benefits the owners, the current board, the current manager, and future boards and managers.

I would also ask the attorney if holding the ARC meeting by telecom or zoom would be acceptable.

Another reason I do not like your recusing yourself is because this may set up the other directors for this owner's wrath.

Good to read you have mastered the art of staying cool and totally get the value of doing so.

If anyone raises disability concerns: Wait until this owner raises them. Do not think for one second that a disabled person has the right to harass, assault or disrupt meetings.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 09/20/2023 1:52 PM
David and Others,
Typically, the way an appeal is handled in most cases, and I see no reason why this should be different. The person making the appeal goes into an Executive session with the board behind closed doors. He is given time to state his/her reasons for the objection and at that point if the board has any questions regarding the specifics of the remarks, they are asked at that point and answered. You then thank them for coming to the meeting and let them know that they will be informed the result of the appeal by email with 14 days.

The board meets to discuss directly after the owner leaves the room and takes the vote. The PMC then mails the letter, and the case is closed.


Thanks, that's a good point. That certainly makes things easier.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
As so often is the case, I agree with Mark here because he, like I, has many, many years of experience involved on HOA Boards IN executive session hearings. Mark describes how hearings also are held in Calif. per statutes and my HOA's CC&Rs and Rules & Regs. I assume DE is the same or very similar, and David needs to double check that the invitation to the hearing and the hearing itself are done exactly right per the HOA's docs & DE statute.

Exec. sess. is completely private. Except for the Board and PM, if present. No one else, including Mr. Shed-head knows who voted or how they voted. It is a director's duty to vote, so he should. That’s a non-issue. It's whether David should attend. And if so, should he leave(recuse himself) the hearing during the discussion of Shed-head's case. I think he should stay, but not preside or say a word during the hearing with Mr. SH.

My reason for thinking David should stay is it shows leadership and the willingness to stick by his board colleagues in a tough situation. I believe it builds trust of David among the Board given David's only been president & on the Board for a few months. He should just sit still and show without expression that he's paying attention to the chair and to SH. In advance, the Board can decide the best spot where David should sit.

The written invitation to the hearing should state that the SOLE topic for discussion is the shed. The ARC's denial report should be a part of this correspondence, which every director must read and be satisfied that the decision was correct given your ARC guidelines & gov. docs.

SH is called in; the meeting chair & invites him to sit down and introduces those present to him The chair states something like: "I'll summarize your request, which we’ve all read, and when I am finished, you may explain to us in three minute why we ought to reconsider the ARC's decision. Remember, that is our sole and ONLY topic. You may now address the Board to explain why we should violate our xx & xx documents, and ignore our ARC’s recommendation. The Board will then ask you to leave and will deliberate & vote on a decision. You'll receive our decision in xx days.”

Prior to calling SH into the hearing room, The Board can agree among directors how to proceed. The Board, imo, should agree to motion & vote to appoint some other director as meeting chair. (Perhaps the PM presides at meetings, as in some HOAs; might be a good thing.) No reason needs to be in the minutes.
Directors might also agree that if Mr. SH exceeds his allotted time, goes off-topic or, certainly, if he becomes abusive, the meeting chair will immediately interrupt him and instruct him to correct his conduct. Directors also can agree that if SH persists, any director may also tell him to, stop or the Board will ask him to leave the meeting. If he persists, any other director, and I did this once and it worked, may rise and walking towards SH, ask him to leave the meeting. If he refuses, the meeting chair may ask for a motion & board vote to adjourn and reconvene in private (don’t reveal the place to SH) to make their decision.

If David & his Board can pull this off, the entire meeting should take no more than about 10-15 minutes.

If everyone is concerned about violence, then a Zoom meeting may be the only option OR even postponement.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I like Kerry and mark's approach. Considering the guy just got busted for going after another homeowner, doing this via Zoom is even better. Or you could hire an off duty cop to observe the proceedings and step in if the guy gets rowdy.

If the man STILL acts up, the board should make the decision in executive session and have the association attorney write the notification letter. That letter should include language stating any verbal or physical threats of harassment, violence, etc., against any board member, their families or tge property will be referred immediately to local law enforcement and criminal charges pursued, if warranted.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Shelia's idea to have an off-duty cop or your own security staffer, if you have them, in attendance, makes a lot of sense. make sure the officer is tannin at the door way when SH enters. But, since the whole matter should be done in executive (closed) session, this officer should be stationed outside the room with her/his # on speed dial.

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