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NancyM29 (Connecticut)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I joined HOAtalk a month ago, after purchasing and moving into our first condominium. I posted a question regarding volunteering... I also reiterated that my husband and I want to become active members. For the last 20 years, my husband’s occupation as a project manager in a national building corporation insinuated him into the executive board of several HOAs as the company representative. I do not have such an extensive resume, but I have a successful history as a volunteer organizer. Between the two of us, we feel we could be assets to our community. And, after attending just two monthly meetings it became abundantly clear to us that the Executive Board was/is running the community as a fiefdom. Yes; we read the Bylaws and understand the power the Executive Board holds, and that it’s their job to make decisions for the betterment of the community…

Question: How can we become involved if they do not embrace the concept of volunteers?

Our HOA president walked out of the August monthly meeting and resigned. The Board (then consisting of 2 executive members), contacted a previous HOA president and asked him to join the board. The three colluded, reaching an agreement to vote him in at the next meeting and elect him the new president. THEN, the three (before the September meeting), conducted negotiations with a property management company. They reached a tentative agreement to approve a 16-month contract with little to no community interaction. The owners attending the September meeting voiced their disapproval and did their best to stop the property management vote. They succeeded in postponing the Property Management contract vote for 2 weeks at which point the Board is calling an emergency community meeting so the owners can meet and question the potential candidate. (one candidate only). After Q&A the executive board will vote to accept the PM contract.

Question: Is this legal?

The condo owners are not opposed to having a property management company but do not approve of the method imposed without a voice in the hiring. I’m pretty sure the contract will be approved regardless of the owner's queries.

Question: How can the owners make sure that our voices are heard?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Yes, it's legal. The remaining board members can appoint whomever they choose to replace the director who resigned.

Second, yes the board members are the decision makers. Owners have input into a limited number of things: namely voting for candidates for the board at the annual election and voting on amendments to the CC&Rs. A smart board will listen to what the community has to say about things, but they are not obligated to do what owners think should be done.

To be blunt: if this is your first condominium, you have a lot to learn about how things operate. A condo community is not a social club or a fraternal organization or a democracy. It is a corporation with a corporate governance structure. The board makes the decisions because they have fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the association and they are held accountable for those decisions. Owners have no such duty, they're free to act in their own self interest even if that self-interest is harmful to the community, and they are not held accountable when things go off the rails. Who would you want in charge of a multi-million dollar corporation whose stability affects the financial well-being of everyone in the community: someone who makes decisions for their own personal benefit, or knowledgeable and experienced folks who have a duty to do what's best for the association as a whole?

It's unfortunate that buyers can purchase homes in HOAs or condo communities without having a better idea of what they're buying. Many of the things that new owners get upset about are normal, prudent business practices. I strongly recommend searching online for education resources that are directed at people who own property in a community association. It will save you a lot of unnecessary aggravation.
JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398
Posted:
Nancy, I feel your pain and sense your honest concerns. Most people (me included) buying into an HOA are clueless because documents (CCRs, bylaws, etc) aren't available until escrow opens. This is the exact moment a buyer is packing up, maybe switching kid's schools, closing/changing utilities, arranging financing...simply going crazy! My suggestions are: Quietly attend all your open meetings; become familiar with Davis-Stirling.com, a CA professional law firm (HOA) highly recognized by most states. They will explain the new language (CCR's, etc) you are about to encounter. Take a slow, deep breath and let your education begin. You have your foot in the door by joining HOA talk (Bravo!!) You are not alone with recognizing a Rogue,unwelcoming Board. I know you will receive excellent advice from several highly educated/experienced responders on this site. Rome wasn't built in a day. Onward.- Jackie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
NancyM29, with one caveat, condo associations for the greater part are legally set up as fiefdoms. The caveat is that at every annual election the owners can select one or more new directors.

Also the courts say that, as a matter of law, all owners knew this before buying a condo unit. This is because the Declaration of a condo association is recorded with the county and so is public record.

Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
I joined HOAtalk a month ago, after purchasing and moving into our first condominium. I posted a question regarding volunteering... I also reiterated that my husband and I want to become active members. For the last 20 years, my husband’s occupation as a project manager in a national building corporation insinuated him into the executive board of several HOAs as the company representative. I do not have such an extensive resume, but I have a successful history as a volunteer organizer. Between the two of us, we feel we could be assets to our community. And, after attending just two monthly meetings it became abundantly clear to us that the Executive Board was/is running the community as a fiefdom. Yes; we read the Bylaws and understand the power the Executive Board holds, and that it’s their job to make decisions for the betterment of the community…
Do you understand that the board's letting any entity other than the board make the decisions is a violation of the board's legal obligations under state statute?

Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM

Question: How can we become involved if they do not embrace the concept of volunteers?
After asking nicely and offering to do xyz, if the Board refuses, your only option is to replace the board, preferably at the next annual election.

Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
Our HOA president walked out of the August monthly meeting and resigned. The Board (then consisting of 2 executive members), contacted a previous HOA president and asked him to join the board. The three colluded, reaching an agreement to vote him in at the next meeting and elect him the new president.
Neither the CT Condo statute nor its nonstock corporation statute require board meetings to be open to owners. Do your bylaws require board meetings to be open to owners? If not, then there was no collusion.

Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
THEN, the three (before the September meeting), conducted negotiations with a property management company. They reached a tentative agreement to approve a 16-month contract with little to no community interaction.
Connecticut statutes do not require community interaction. I am betting neither do this association's bylaws.
Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
The owners attending the September meeting voiced their disapproval and did their best to stop the property management vote. They succeeded in postponing the Property Management contract vote for 2 weeks at which point the Board is calling an emergency community meeting so the owners can meet and question the potential candidate. (one candidate only). After Q&A the executive board will vote to accept the PM contract.
The owners can ask politely for input. The owners cannot require the board to either seek this input or accept the input.

Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
Question: Is this legal?
If anything is illegal here, I think it is some of the things your group seems to expect the board to do.

Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
[snippage] Question: How can the owners make sure that our voices are heard?
I also see no statutory requirement for the directors to take input at their board meetings.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Cannot reply much now, but Cathy & Elle are correct in virtually everything they wrote. To put this a different way, compare with many Boards, even in open meeting states, your Board has been far more transparent than many by inviting owners to their board meetings AND to hold a special board meeting about hiring an MC.

In fact, imo, that the board is permitting Owners to grill the candidate for Management Company contract is unwise on the Board's part. You need to know that even in open meeting states, contracts can be discussed, interviews done , etc. in executive (closed) session and owners would not even necessarily see them until hired.

Does the HOA have no management company at present? How many units are there? With of Board of three, it seems like a fairly small HOA?

My advice as a very long-time board member is to tread VERY lightly. With a recent resignation, there may be some turmoil going on that's unknown to you. You also need to learn not only the Bylaws but, more importantly, the CC&Rs (declaration; covenants). Take some friendly time to get to know your community and being good neighbors. See if there seems to be some area in which you two can add value to the HOA withOUT costing the board or the new MC their time. This might be joining or forming a committee. Or starting a newsletter. Look into both of these online. You must get the Board's permission to do either of these or to initiate something else. So, sty on their good side if you nat to improve your community.

CAI, the Community Association Inst. has some free publication at caionline.com that can help you learn HOAs.

During my long service here at my high rise twin tower HOA,, we've hired 3-4 project managers, each for 4-10 months. for major projects who sometimes attended board meetings. These individuals never needed to learn our governing documents or much about condo statutes or HOA law.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 09/03/2023 1:55 PM
Yes, it's legal. The remaining board members can appoint whomever they choose to replace the director who resigned.

Second, yes the board members are the decision makers. Owners have input into a limited number of things: namely voting for candidates for the board at the annual election and voting on amendments to the CC&Rs. A smart board will listen to what the community has to say about things, but they are not obligated to do what owners think should be done.

To be blunt: if this is your first condominium, you have a lot to learn about how things operate. A condo community is not a social club or a fraternal organization or a democracy. It is a corporation with a corporate governance structure. The board makes the decisions because they have fiduciary duty to act in the best interests of the association and they are held accountable for those decisions. Owners have no such duty, they're free to act in their own self interest even if that self-interest is harmful to the community, and they are not held accountable when things go off the rails. Who would you want in charge of a multi-million dollar corporation whose stability affects the financial well-being of everyone in the community: someone who makes decisions for their own personal benefit, or knowledgeable and experienced folks who have a duty to do what's best for the association as a whole?

It's unfortunate that buyers can purchase homes in HOAs or condo communities without having a better idea of what they're buying. Many of the things that new owners get upset about are normal, prudent business practices. I strongly recommend searching online for education resources that are directed at people who own property in a community association. It will save you a lot of unnecessary aggravation.

Well said.
NancyM29 (Connecticut)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thank you for your responses. Clearly, I have a lot to learn, and my schooling has begun. Already this group has changed my opinion of what a condo community should look like. I naively approached our Board; volunteering is in my DNA. Our community needs rejuvenation so going forth, rather than opposing the BOD, my efforts will support them - (most of the time!). Thanks for the wake-up call.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Good for you, Nancy! To me, your willingness to learn about HOAs is so refreshing and even exciting. Supporting the Board is a good plan, at least until you learn a lot. Kick your powers of observation & attention-paying into high gear, too.

From what you wrote above, it seems like there is -- perhaps a very small-- group of owners who are critical of the current Board. Get to know one or more of them, but do NOT get too cozy since there are, in fact, owners, or tiny groups of them, who are "professional dissidents" and complain a lot often with no knowledge about how HOAs function. OR they have personal vendettas. Could it be the former president resigned because of them? Be neutral with everyone at first.

Pay attention to who asks questions of the proposed community manager and the way in which they ask them. You might want to politely ask the candidate about the topics that concern you, e.g., rejuvenation." Do you happen to know if the group opposed to hiring a manager is opposed because they don't want dues to increase, which they will if you have no PM now? Or is the opposition for some other reason? It is possible, by the way, that the Board did consider more than one candidate in an executive session meeting, which is legal.

Jackie of CA mentioned the Davis-Stirling.com website. It's compiled by a CA HOA legal firm and can be an excellent resource for you because of its fine Index. The thing is, some of their writing and opinion are specific to Calif. So make sure that what you're reading is generalizable to CT. Some of the language is a little. different too. In Calif. we talk about "Articles of Incorporation," but in CT it's maybe "Certificate of Incorporation."

If you don't mind, it'd be good if we knew the size of your condo HOA. Are there now any committees comprised of owners? Even if not, it's hard to know why not. One reason might be that there were committees in the past, but they were so much trouble and took up so much of the Board's time that they weren't worth having.* Or it could be no one has volunteered or offered to start a committee and the Board doesn't know how.

I'm hoping a wise veteran of board service, Shelia, will join this discussion!

* Our condo of 200+ unit HOA's experience with committees has been mostly positive. We usually and presently have three.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
They succeeded in postponing the Property Management contract vote for 2 weeks at which point the Board is calling an emergency community meeting so the owners can meet and question the potential candidate. (one candidate only).
The reason letting owners question the candidate is a mistake is because it's clear to me that these owners do not know HOA law; might ask something that could cause a lawsuit; do not have the proposed contract in front of them; do not understand why the board has the final say; and more.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We've talked about committees on this website a number of times.

Many communities use them successfully, my community did not (our committees attracted the folks Kerry called "professional dissidents" who used committee membership to undermine the board). Right now our board is using ad hoc volunteers for specific chores. I and a few others remain concerned about the liability risks involved, although it appears that we're adequately insured. However, not having an insurance claim at all is preferable to having enough insurance. The reason is that insurance premiums have been rising sharply for HOAs and condo communities, to the point where some boards are talking about high deductible policies or self-insurance because they can't afford the premiums on traditional policies. Limiting your claims is a good way to help keep your premiums down, and that means not taking risks if you don't have to.

I think most would agree that volunteers should not be doing physical labor because of the risk of injury. Associations that are trying to save money may be tempted to go that route, which I think is short-sighted. The regulars around here have heard this before, but here's why I think it's short-sighted.

* Volunteers aren't free. You have to beef up your insurance to make sure you have enough coverage (see previous paragraph about insurance challenges).

* You don't get professional quality work. You won't get warranties or guarantees, and you may even void existing warranties. You have no recourse if a volunteer walks off the job with no warning.

* Using volunteers is not sustainable, especially in condo communities, since people don't buy condos in order to do free yard work. You may have a bunch of retirees right now who have time on their hands, but community demographics can change and you may no longer have willing workers in the future.

* Using volunteers creates more work for the board since they need to manage and supervise them, and board members already have too much on their plates.

* Using volunteers misleads owners about the true cost of ownership. This is a big problem if your governing documents or state laws give homeowners the right to vote down assessment increases. Once your assessments are unrealistically low, you may have dug yourselves into a financial hole that you can't climb back out of.

Something like a social committee or finance committee where people don't do physical labor is better. However, if you're in condos, you need to make sure you're actually allowed to spend money on things like social events (in my state, unless our CC&Rs specifically mention social events, we may not spend association money on them).

And keep in mind that committee members usually don't have any separate authority of their own, although there are occasional exceptions. Normally committee members serve at the pleasure of the board, take direction from the board, and may be removed with or without cause. You can see why a committee member who already has a problem with the board would be upset, and why committees can cause more problems than they're worth.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 09/04/2023 11:42 AM
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM
They succeeded in postponing the Property Management contract vote for 2 weeks at which point the Board is calling an emergency community meeting so the owners can meet and question the potential candidate. (one candidate only).
The reason letting owners question the candidate is a mistake is because it's clear to me that these owners do not know HOA law; might ask something that could cause a lawsuit; do not have the proposed contract in front of them; do not understand why the board has the final say; and more.

This is why I agree with ElleN's and Kerry's comments about allowing owners to question candidates.

Allowing people to weigh in on decisions without having the information they need to understand what they're hearing is unfair to everyone. It sets up people to fail, and in this case the association may also lose an excellent candidate if that person felt like they were facing a hostile audience. The best managers can afford to be choosy about their clients, so this can be counterproductive.

If a community employs a management firm whose managers handle several communities at once, there's also no guarantee that a particular manager will remain at a community. So interviewing a particular candidate won't necessarily provide as much insight as people think it will.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Well, Cathy, I'm wondering if by "candidate," Navy' referring to a management company vs. an individual candidate for her HOA. Either way, to restate my above, as fleshed out by Elle & Cathy, it's a terrible idea. It also suggests to see that the current Board is pretty green naively unaware that they may be sabotaging their own preference. It could turn out, after all, that the questions asked (hurled?) by owners of this candidate might cause that person to reject working for this HOA.

Btw way, I put "professional dissidents"I quote because it's not my phrase. I actually thought it was Cathy's.

RE:committees: I would never ever recommend that an HOA committee be permitted to touch any common area items. Landscape committees are very common, but they should look, not touch.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
"Nancy's," sorry.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
You mean we shouldn't have volunteers wielding chainsaws and taking down trees?
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NancyM29 on 09/03/2023 1:14 PM

Our HOA president walked out of the August monthly meeting and resigned. The Board (then consisting of 2 executive members), contacted a previous HOA president and asked him to join the board. The three colluded, reaching an agreement to vote him in at the next meeting and elect him the new president. THEN, the three (before the September meeting), conducted negotiations with a property management company. They reached a tentative agreement to approve a 16-month contract with little to no community interaction. The owners attending the September meeting voiced their disapproval and did their best to stop the property management vote. They succeeded in postponing the Property Management contract vote for 2 weeks at which point the Board is calling an emergency community meeting so the owners can meet and question the potential candidate. (one candidate only). After Q&A the executive board will vote to accept the PM contract.

Just chiming in to agree with what the other 'regulars' here have already said.

It's almost funny - after two years I still consider myself very new to this stuff, and as I read what NancyM wrote, I can both understand her viewpoint *and* (what I believe is) the viewpoint of the Board. I'm all too familiar with the need to fill a spot on a Board and having either zero or *maybe* one candidate - with no guarantee that the candidate is even competent. It's all too easy to interpret it as "The three colluded". But I can't help but wonder if the 2 Board members couldn't find anyone except this one person. And maybe they had to offer him President to get him to even consider stepping up? I'm speculating wildly. I'm very surprised that they're calling this emergency meeting. "(one candidate only)" - has anyone else offered to throw their hat in?

I know not everyone suffers the massive apathy issues that my neighborhood does. But I cannot help but view this situation through that kind of lens. Nancy, I'm glad you're willing to reconsider the issue and attempt to view it as *not* a corrupt power-grab. It sounds like they *do* need volunteers to pitch in and help.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With BillD, while my HOA seems to usually have enough candidates for board positions, we often see here that many HOAs do not. That the newly is president has uncertain meaning. Maybe neither of the remaining directors want the position. Maybe the new president has a good HOA background or a good background in presiding at meetings, which is the main job of the president.

Good to tro remember that HOA presidents have only one vote like every other director. In non-profits, boards govern; not presidents.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Echoing what Kerry said, the norm in my community is to have to beg and twist arms to get our third board position filled. And many of our board members do not want to be the president, myself included because I would straight up rather have a root canal than preside over meetings. Fortunately one of the services offered by our community manager is conducting meetings, which is a real benefit. Many people are introverts with a lot of skills in other areas, and they can make fine presidents if someone else handles the things that they're not good at.

Thinking back over my years on the board, I think the most serious handicaps for board members have to do with their psychological makeup. Some are bench warmers, and you have to wonder exactly what they think board service involves. Others are afraid to make unpopular decisions, or decisions of any kind. Others are flat-out troublemakers: they think they can do whatever they want, or they can't get along with the rest of the board. Heaven help you if you end up with a vocational dissident on the board or someone who is dishonest. I would much rather have a director who doesn't know the first thing about serving on the board but who has the right temperament for the job - that person will be an asset once they learn the ropes, whereas the others never will.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Back to committees: Our HOA's CC&Rs requires that have an Architectural Committee (ARC) of three members. This may be common in condo HOAs? It might be required in Nancy's condo HOA. If not, I imagine they have an ARC. After learning about the ARC guidelines and ARC materials in the CC&Rs, seems like a good way for Nancy's project manager spouse to volunteer.

Unlike board spots, our HOA does have trouble finding enough members of the ARC. Now we only have two members. If one of them resigns and no volunteer comes forward, a board member would be required to take on the role. That, indeed, has happened to us a couple of times over the years.

I think Cathy's many observations about "committees" seem to focus on those that might be somehow hands-on. I agree those should be avoided for many of her reasons. But, an a Finance Committee and Social Committee both can be very useful.

We've had lively debates here about HOAs spending funds on social events. But there are ways t have social activities at no cost to the association.

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