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BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Hello all! I've been extremely busy being President *and* Pool Manager. And if you think that's more than any sane person should take on - I won't disagree with you.

We really have been having a lot of problem with trespassers at our pool. They used to come only at night, but there's apparently a new breed of 'daywalkers' who jump the fence during operating hours. The police couldn't care less. Also, we've been using this electronic 'key fob' system for a few years. And the other day I watched a known homeless person open the pool gate with some kind of key fob or key card. I've disabled that ID, but - our security is just massively broken. On the bright side, I've been researching systems that use mobile credentials - ie, we can email someone pool access! - and everyone on the Board is a-okay with it. But its unlikely to happen before 2024.

In the meantime, I've watched so many people jump the fence, tailgate their way into the pool, etc, that I've composed this list of

Things Shifty People Do

- Alter appearance frequently - SP will frequently change clothing, hairstyle to make ID difficult - they are something of a "quick change artist".

- Wear hats. For comfort, but also hats help obscure features, can be changed easily, discarded easily. ā€œI saw a guy in a white hatā€ - except now SP is wearing a black hat. Or no hat at all.

- Fake glasses. See hats above.

- Avoid looking people in the face - look down at the ground when talking to cops, other people. Deferential posture / attitude that also helps keep people from getting to know SP's face too well. Disadvantage: SP might miss a facial cue.

- Talking on a cellphone - either for real or for pretend. People tend to ignore other people when they’re talking on cellphone. It's a great way to just hang out in one spot for awhile: SP loitering by the mailboxes would get reported. But "person talking on phone" is pretty much ignored.

- Try not to say a lot. When speaking, lie a lot.

- Multiple names, makes ID harder.

- Enhanced situational awareness. Nothing supernatural, just: in a situation where most people are feeling comfortable, SP is on high alert (and probably not showing it much).

- Security camera awareness. Know where they are, but avoid looking straight at them.

- Bathroom-seeking behavior: shower, shave, bodily functions, change clothes, charge phone, fill water bottles, shoot drugs, etc. Probably have an entire ā€˜routine’. May have a hidden stash.

- Keep ā€˜hidden stashes’ in various places. Trash cans can be handy if you don’t mind getting your hands dirty.

- Carry a backpack. Possibly have multiple backpacks stashed.

- Lots of walking -> good shoes.

- Bicycles. Efficient way to cover ground. Easy to dump. Easy to steal. In some situations may offer more mobility than a car. ā€œI saw a guy on a white bicycleā€ - except now SP is walking.

- ā€œSpyā€ before moving in. Ie, surveillance position where SP can hide and see what’s going on at the place. Get to know ā€˜the regulars’, trash pickup, hours of operation, busy times, dead times, lifeguard shifts, maintenance days, etc. I suspect that a lot more of this happens than I have any awareness of.

- Shoplifting (and theft in general) is a way of life. I think sometimes SPs attempt to return the items they lifted for cash, but I strongly suspect there's a fair amount of barter that goes on.

I'm not any kind of authority, but I have personally observed each and every one of these behaviors since January.

My suspicion is that many SPs spend a lot of time moving from one restroom to another. There was a fellow the other day who was like a ghost: he tailgated in, spent 25 minutes in the men's restroom, and then quietly walked away. I may have been the only person who saw him, and that was pure luck. If they were all like that, I probably wouldn't care. But we've got a few chronic offenders who come in and make messes, which upsets the residents, who then make *my* life hell.

Yet, in its own way: it's interesting.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

ā€œYou can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactorā€
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Bill,
WOW that's a lot of research. Many times, over the years I have noticed that locks only keep honest people out of spaces bad people want to enter. The bad apples know many tricks that we have not thought of yet. An Electric fence is probably the only deterrent that may work. If I am correct, I believe you are in Austin are so I would not try that because they may use it on the president.

I am pretty sure that app-based Cell system for Fob access has been available for a few years. The company I purchase our Fobs from sells the readers that are needed to be upgraded. It is a very good company and I know I can give you the name on this site, but a hint is they are located in Hartsville, Sc.

JulieH4
Posts: 75
Posted:
We have the shifty people here too. We actually had to put a gate on our mailbox area because of theft and we have a key to access our pool. I'm only part time but I live on property so I get calls, texts, and emails every day whenever someone sees a shifty person.

I'm afraid it's only going to get worse as well.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Good grief. I bet you could write a book about your adventures in HOA-Land.

I don't think we have as much of a problem with trespassers around here, but a number of apartment complexes in my area have gone to a biometric system for access to the clubhouse and other amenities that can't be accessed by just jumping a fence. I have real privacy concerns about allowing a private corporation (the apartment owner) to fingerprint me unless I work for them in a job requiring that level of security. And the apartments don't disclose this on their websites - you have to sign a lease, and then surprise!!

I wonder how soon we'll go to micro-chips or retinal scans instead...
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 08/22/2023 12:37 PM
Good grief. I bet you could write a book about your adventures in HOA-Land.

I don't think we have as much of a problem with trespassers around here, but a number of apartment complexes in my area have gone to a biometric system for access to the clubhouse and other amenities that can't be accessed by just jumping a fence. I have real privacy concerns about allowing a private corporation (the apartment owner) to fingerprint me unless I work for them in a job requiring that level of security. And the apartments don't disclose this on their websites - you have to sign a lease, and then surprise!!

I wonder how soon we'll go to micro-chips or retinal scans instead...

I always figured if I wrote a book, it would be some kind of hard SF space opera thing. But yes, for sure, I’ve thought about it. I think I’d go for straight humor, murder mystery, or Margaret Atwood near-future totalitarian state slice-of-life: ā€œI had to explain to Mrs. Anderson that yes, they jumped the pool fence, but no we couldn’t have the police take them away and euthanize them because they were neighborhood kids and not homeless people, and their parents would be extremely upset, and by the way does she know how much the City of Austin charges us every time they do that?ā€

FWIW, I’d be highly opposed to biometrics at this low-competence volunteer level. The chances of the data being compromised are 100%.

Sorta off-topic but also not: dealing with APD is an issue unto itself. I’ve had to speak to 5 different cops this year{1}. And every time I talk to them, they *always* begin with this smarmy apologetic ā€œwell, we’re having to change things a lot, trying to make do with less resources, etcā€. I grit my teeth and say nothing. APD seems to be perpetually miffed about their contract or whatever. And I tell ya, their salary info is public and I’ve looked at it and cops in Austin are paid *amazingly* well.

Sorry. But my point is that they make it clear that they’re not going to be much help with trespassers.

Bill

{1} which is a *lot* for me, given that one of my rules for a happy life is ā€œavoid the policeā€. I’ve gone for years without ever talking to or even seeing a cop in real life, and as a lifestyle, I’d recommend it to everyone.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

ā€œYou can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactorā€
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Bill,
When I read your Subject line, I think you may have miss spelled the word that begins with the S. I would remove the F and that's what they are IMO.

I just had to order a new batch of Fobs for our HOA and I took the time to ask the Rep about the Cell phone technology. She said yes, it is readily available and works well. What I heard next really discouraged me from exploring. She said you need to buy Certificates for $7.00 per phone and renew them every year. This means going after the users and collecting additional funds annually which can be a real pain. Fobs last many years and have just the one-time cost and the only maintenance is removing them when users leave the HOA.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 08/23/2023 12:42 PM
Bill,
When I read your Subject line, I think you may have miss spelled the word that begins with the S. I would remove the F and that's what they are IMO.

I just had to order a new batch of Fobs for our HOA and I took the time to ask the Rep about the Cell phone technology. She said yes, it is readily available and works well. What I heard next really discouraged me from exploring. She said you need to buy Certificates for $7.00 per phone and renew them every year. This means going after the users and collecting additional funds annually which can be a real pain. Fobs last many years and have just the one-time cost and the only maintenance is removing them when users leave the HOA.

We're rolling out an app for our gate system that works amazingly well. And much more secure than key fobs, that can be transferred to anybody and everybody. It costs us $2 per email address per year, so we collected a year and four months in advance. In January, 2025 we will have to go in and delete access to everyone who doesn't pay to renew, but it's not a huge task.

The app has a lot more abilities than we are using. We are only allowing owners to use it for the gates and pedestrian. But we could use it on every door that has a card reader (like our clubhouse). It also has the nightmare ability to have the owner do their own guest passes - which means we would quickly lose any security control. That feature is disabled.

We have also switched from transponders (clickers) to RFID readers and stickers. Works great, and once again we are limiting the ability of owners to give transponders to non-residents.

On the larger issue of "shifty people", we are lucky to have a sheriff's deputy assigned to our community who is the biggest self-promoter I have ever met. He comes to almost every meeting and event we have. He brings gifts for the kids, their vintage cop car, an ice cream truck, etc. The nice part is if we tell him we have an issue, he takes care of it. Too bad the Austin police doesn't have a community outreach program like that. Now, I have to say that we have an incredibly vindictive sheriff who you really don't want to cross (I could tell stories, but I won't) so I take everything our officer does with a grain of salt.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Sorry - my replay should have said the app costs $2 per month per email address. So it's $$24 per year.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Gee Bill as a Veteran Retail manager and Security Guard, when I point these things out to clients and to others they call me crazy and a racist.

When I worked in a Downtown metro city, we had a guy change disguises quite regularly but he had the same style puffy bag and the same style puffy
down jacket. He was finally nabbed in my store. His coat and bag was lined with aluminum foil to defeat the security tags. Yep I told ya so, but ya
fools didn't listen in time.

Having covered in casinos, my God the disguises people would wear.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 08/24/2023 1:43 PM
Gee Bill as a Veteran Retail manager and Security Guard, when I point these things out to clients and to others they call me crazy and a racist..

The same thing happens to me!

I’ve become remarkably thick-skinned about being called a racist. ā€œCrazyā€? It’s like that line from Hunter S. Thompson: ā€œwhen the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.ā€ I feel like I’ve been Pro for years.

Lately I’ve been pondering the installation of a porta-potty (with tasteful exterior wood paneling to make it blend in). Long term, it might be a lot cheaper than installing a new fence, etc. Frankly, most of our homeless visitors seem to be seeking a restroom, and when I look at a map, we’re an obvious target for that. Yeah, I know, it’d go to hell quickly; the 80% would treat it well, the 20% would set it on fire. But if we could locate it on some isolated piece of common property, far from the pool - it’d probably turn into a popular spot for anonymous sex hookups, so back to square one.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

ā€œYou can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactorā€
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 08/23/2023 12:42 PM
Bill,
When I read your Subject line, I think you may have miss spelled the word that begins with the S. I would remove the F and that's what they are IMO.

I just had to order a new batch of Fobs for our HOA and I took the time to ask the Rep about the Cell phone technology. She said yes, it is readily available and works well. What I heard next really discouraged me from exploring. She said you need to buy Certificates for $7.00 per phone and renew them every year. This means going after the users and collecting additional funds annually which can be a real pain. Fobs last many years and have just the one-time cost and the only maintenance is removing them when users leave the HOA.

I’ll keep that in mind - I’ve yet to do a really Deep Dive into this stuff. We can’t use product names here, but I think I can tell you that the system I’ve been looking at is A Very Interessting General-purpose Implementation that is known by Lots Of Names. I probably shouldn’t spread myself too thin, but I’m looking at getting our PMC involved, because they administer a number of neighborhood pools, and I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before they realize that they need to stop doorking around with key fobs.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

ā€œYou can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactorā€

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