💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
This happened in the 1980s. A portion of our original development was being purchased from the developer for agricultural use but he forgot to grant an easement to himself over the main road which is now our emergency egress route. So he sued our association. As a settlement, our board granted the developer a non-exclusive easement and that is verified by resolution and recorded deed. The purchaser wouldn't buy the property without it.

So my question is: could the board grant an easement over a common area without a vote of the membership? This agricultural property is now for sale and evidently there are some other roads on it that the association owns.

Looking for any remote references, Declaration states no one can seek a judicial partition of any common area. Declaration does not give board authority to convey interest in common area.

Does anyone have experience with the association granting an easement over common areas? Thanks.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
I don't know if this helps – but our CC&R's have two amendments regarding easements. The second one was almost 5 years after the development was started.

the power but not the duty to grant and convey to any Person
easements, licenses or rights-of-way in, on, over or under the Master Common Area and fee title
to parcels or strips of land which comprise a portion of the Master Common Area for purposes
consistent with the terms of this Master Declaration, including without limitation constructing,
installing, erecting, operating, maintaining or conducting thereon, therein and thereunder:
(i) roads, streets, walks, trails, driveways, parkways, landscaping, park areas, open space areas
and slope areas; (ii) underground lines, cables, wires, conduits, or other devices for the
transmission of power or signals for lighting, heating, television, telephone and other similar
purposes; {iii) sewers, storm water drains, retention basins and pipes, water systems, sprinkling
systems, water, heating and gas lines or pipes; or (iv) similar Improvements, facilities or uses
inconsistent with the use of such property pursuant to this Master Declaration
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 08/02/2023 7:59 AM
I don't know if this helps – but our CC&R's have two amendments regarding easements. The second one was almost 5 years after the development was started.

the power but not the duty to grant and convey to any Person
easements, licenses or rights-of-way in, on, over or under the Master Common Area and fee title
to parcels or strips of land which comprise a portion of the Master Common Area for purposes
consistent with the terms of this Master Declaration, including without limitation constructing,
installing, erecting, operating, maintaining or conducting thereon, therein and thereunder:
(i) roads, streets, walks, trails, driveways, parkways, landscaping, park areas, open space areas
and slope areas; (ii) underground lines, cables, wires, conduits, or other devices for the
transmission of power or signals for lighting, heating, television, telephone and other similar
purposes; {iii) sewers, storm water drains, retention basins and pipes, water systems, sprinkling
systems, water, heating and gas lines or pipes; or (iv) similar Improvements, facilities or uses
inconsistent with the use of such property pursuant to this Master Declaration

Thank you, James. I'm thinking all that infrastructure would have to benefit the association? In our case, the easement was granted to a non-member former developer who had no affiliation with the association any longer.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 08/01/2023 5:45 PM
This happened in the 1980s. A portion of our original development was being purchased from the developer for agricultural use but he forgot to grant an easement to himself over the main road which is now our emergency egress route. So he sued our association. As a settlement, our board granted the developer a non-exclusive easement and that is verified by resolution and recorded deed. The purchaser wouldn't buy the property without it.
If the non-HOA-member land owner has been using the main road for some 30+ years, then regardless of whether the easement was properly granted, the "prescriptive easement" rule (court made or possibly in statutes) may play a role. The D-S site has some chatter on this.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 08/02/2023 8:39 AM
Posted By TerriS6 on 08/01/2023 5:45 PM
This happened in the 1980s. A portion of our original development was being purchased from the developer for agricultural use but he forgot to grant an easement to himself over the main road which is now our emergency egress route. So he sued our association. As a settlement, our board granted the developer a non-exclusive easement and that is verified by resolution and recorded deed. The purchaser wouldn't buy the property without it.
If the non-HOA-member land owner has been using the main road for some 30+ years, then regardless of whether the easement was properly granted, the "prescriptive easement" rule (court made or possibly in statutes) may play a role. The D-S site has some chatter on this.

Thanks. Nobody is challenging the old easement. It just raised the question and I'm wondering for future reference. If the property is purchased for development, a developer surely will want to add infrastructure and re-route current agricultural dirt roads. And we may own other roads on the parcel.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 08/01/2023 5:45 PM
Declaration does not give board authority to convey interest in common area.
Do the Declaration or bylaws expressly state the above? E.g. do the governing documents have wording like "The board shall not convey an interest in common area." Or are the governing documents silent on the point?

If I were an owner at this HOA and the board was going around saying the board has the right to grant non-exclusive use easements to non-members, I would be asking the board for proof of this and be considering retaining counsel at some point. This is due to --

-- General reading over the years of case law, statutes and governing documents regarding the limits on board powers.

-- knowing that plats are a part of a HOA's governing documents (the Declaration, typically) and so would require an owners' vote to amend. One hundred percent consent might very well be necessary.

-- knowing that added traffic on a road means more road maintenance. Meaning the board thinks it can just force owners to support this additional maintenance financially.

-- Loss of some peace and enjoyment of my lot. More traffic = more noise and more hassle.

-- Those developers looking to develop land in your area will be sharks, with a city council or county commission that is largely on their side, and with a well-paid, well-qualified attorney working for them. This is from direct experience and much reading on land use and how it is set up in statutes and ordinances to favor developing and "growing" the local economy (in the short term, I say).

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Governing documents are silent on the point.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Does the Declaration speak to any specific easements? I would be looking in the exhibits at the end of the declaration in particular. If the Declaration does speak to specific easements, then this again argues that adding easements today or in the future would require an amendment to the declaration and so a vote of the owners.

Watch out for city councils and county commissions being disinterested in any dispute between owners and the board. Municipalities and counties want development and will IMO run roughshod over HOA owners' rights. Firing a shot across the bow of the board sooner rather than later might be best.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 08/02/2023 10:32 AM
Does the Declaration speak to any specific easements? I would be looking in the exhibits at the end of the declaration in particular. If the Declaration does speak to specific easements, then this again argues that adding easements today or in the future would require an amendment to the declaration and so a vote of the owners.

Watch out for city councils and county commissions being disinterested in any dispute between owners and the board. Municipalities and counties want development and will IMO run roughshod over HOA owners' rights. Firing a shot across the bow of the board sooner rather than later might be best.

In declaration "There shall be no structural alterations, capital additions to or capital improvements of the Common Area without the prior approval of Owners holding fifty-one (51) percent of the Lots." So it seems buyer would not be able to pave/sidewalk/curb the road (it's now dirt) without member vote which makes me think the easement should have had a member vote but I see nothing referring to easement in the gov docs. Thanks.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 08/02/2023 11:24 AM
In declaration "There shall be no structural alterations, capital additions to or capital improvements of the Common Area without the prior approval of Owners holding fifty-one (51) percent of the Lots." So it seems buyer would not be able to pave/sidewalk/curb the road (it's now dirt) without member vote
I think the above is a powerful argument.

This board seems to be eager to assist developers today. I wonder why.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Terri

Nobody is going to buy that property without proper access. They will sort this all out prior to buying so at this time I say wait and see what happens.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Terri

Nobody is going to buy that property without proper access. They will sort this all out prior to buying so at this time I say wait and see what happens.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/02/2023 11:56 AM
Terri

Nobody is going to buy that property without proper access. They will sort this all out prior to buying so at this time I say wait and see what happens.

Access is not an issue. They have access.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
If the Board grants an easement don't they specify what the easement is to be used for? ie drainage easement, sewer easement, roadway easement or whatever they may have called it easement.

And if that is the case, would they need additional permission to install a sewer line in a sewer easement or a road on a roadway easement?

So I guess what I am getting at - what is the easement for?
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 08/02/2023 12:52 PM
If the Board grants an easement don't they specify what the easement is to be used for? ie drainage easement, sewer easement, roadway easement or whatever they may have called it easement.

And if that is the case, would they need additional permission to install a sewer line in a sewer easement or a road on a roadway easement?

So I guess what I am getting at - what is the easement for?

It’s for ingress, egress, over, across and under and for utilities.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Can I ask how this personally effects you? Are you going to sue if your opinion is not supported by the actions your HOA board takes? What is the result going to effect either way?

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/02/2023 5:14 PM
Can I ask how this personally effects you? Are you going to sue if your opinion is not supported by the actions your HOA board takes? What is the result going to effect either way?

I asked a legitimate question about whether or not the board has independent authority to give away property rights that belong to the entire membership. At the end of today, I'm convinced the board didn't have authority decades ago to give away those rights by granting an easement to a non-member for no compensation. The question came up because the property where the easement is located is for sale and instead of agricultural use which is why the board granted the easement - to prevent housing development - its being marketed as housing development potential.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Okay and? You arming for an excuse to sue the board for whatever they decide?

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/02/2023 7:00 PM
Okay and? You arming for an excuse to sue the board for whatever they decide?

Pathetic that you are disappointed to find I’m not litigious.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
And you undoubtedly were a pathetic board president who believed the president could do no wrong and any scumbag member never had a valid reason to object to your actions.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/02/2023 7:00 PM
Okay and? You arming for an excuse to sue the board for whatever they decide?

And you “Melissa” who admitted to using a fake name have not contributed a single attempt to answer the question, not a single intelligent response but only to attack the author for asking the question. You have no credibility whatsoever.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Oh I think I have provided the perfect answer to your dilemma... Just needed to read your words to reveal them... Your welcome.

Go get your lawyer to fight something that has no bearing on your life. Just another excuse to sue your HOA instead of doing the work. People must live how you enforce your will by all these easy lawsuits versus doing the job...

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/02/2023 8:18 PM
Oh I think I have provided the perfect answer to your dilemma... Just needed to read your words to reveal them... Your welcome.

Go get your lawyer to fight something that has no bearing on your life. Just another excuse to sue your HOA instead of doing the work. People must live how you enforce your will by all these easy lawsuits versus doing the job...

It’s you’re welcome not your welcome.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
4505. Says there is an easement appurtenant to each separate interest and the common area is subject to them. So the board gave away a property right for free that all the rest of us have to pay for.

CIVIL CODE SECTION 4505. RIGHTS OF INGRESS AND EGRESS.
Unless the declaration otherwise provides:

(a) In a community apartment project and condominium project, and in those planned developments with common area owned in common by the owners of the separate interests, there are appurtenant to each separate interest nonexclusive rights of ingress, egress, and support, if necessary, through the common area. The common area is subject to these rights.

(b) In a stock cooperative, and in a planned development with common area owned by the association, there is an easement for ingress, egress, and support, if necessary, appurtenant to each separate interest. The common area is subject to these easements.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again how is this going to hurt you? How is the sell of this property going to effect your bottom line? What does it matter if it sells or not? Is the HOA going to get any money or benefit? Most likely not. So I don't know why it's a "thing" to even care about what a board does when you are NOT on the board or doing anything but suing...

Just tell us HOW this will effect you if they do or do not grant easement? Inquiring minds want to know.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 4:45 AM
Again how is this going to hurt you? How is the sell of this property going to effect your bottom line? What does it matter if it sells or not? Is the HOA going to get any money or benefit? Most likely not. So I don't know why it's a "thing" to even care about what a board does when you are NOT on the board or doing anything but suing...

Just tell us HOW this will effect you if they do or do not grant easement? Inquiring minds want to know.

Answer the question.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I do not have a question. I want an answer. How is this going to effect you personally on any decision made on this property? Simple. Is it principle or you lose something in your life can not live without?

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 5:50 AM
How is this going to effect you personally on any decision made on this property?
Increased traffic, meaning increased noise and increased hassle. Higher assessment to pay for the greater maintenance needs of a road now seeing increased traffic.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are you assuming this? The road access should not change just the owner.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
I typed the paragraph but it disappeared. Anyway e resolution recorded with the easement states the only reason the board granted the easement is because they wanted to see a vineyard on the 220 acres rather than the developments previously approved but abandoned.

It's a dirt road - our ONLY alternate egress in case of fire in a high fire danger area.

If a development goes in, our membership would have to approve paved road construction.

If a development goes in, it would severely overburden the easement.

If a development goes in, it will drastically change the desirability of our neighborhood.

But my only question was - did the board have the independent authority to grant the easement and I think not. Let's not make it worse.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Are you assuming this? The road access should not change just the owner.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 6:30 AM
Are you assuming this? The road access should not change just the owner.

How much traffic to a 200 acre vineyard? How much traffic to a 200 acre housing development? No difference? Are you joking?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again is this have any effect that will be more or less negative than already exists? Any road should have the same potential of use. Does not mean it gets used in that manner.

Are we planning a lawsuit or not over this yet?

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 6:43 AM
Again is this have any effect that will be more or less negative than already exists? Any road should have the same potential of use. Does not mean it gets used in that manner.

Are we planning a lawsuit or not over this yet?

Are you that dense?
I don't share your obsession with lawsuits.
Go feed your anger elsewhere.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 08/03/2023 6:20 AM
I typed the paragraph but it disappeared.

Off topic - but I have had that happen to me several times, now - only on this forum. I have some long post typed out and all of a sudden 'poof'
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 6:43 AM
Again is this have any effect that will be more or less negative than already exists?
You are being nonsensical.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
What is non sensical? The HOA was sued by the owner to grant them access consideration. Now that person is selling the land. The OP wants to know if the HOA board has the right without membership vote to grant them access they have or want to have with new owners.

Well what does that matter to the OP? What changes either way if owners vote or the board does? Most will either care or not care. So what will it be? Anyone care enough about the sell and access to approach the board to vote? Or enough individually want to cast a vote? That is what talking here. However with the OP past lawsuit history I'll am sure having the board do the voting will get them sued instead of approached by majority of owners with their opinion. The board is to vote for what majority of owners want if they let them know what they want without a lawsuit threat or enforced.

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 8:07 AM
The OP wants to know if the HOA board has the right without membership vote to grant [new, non-HOA members] access to [other roads].
No, as usual, you are ignoring a great deal.

Granting easements to non-HOA owners, where easements did not previously exist or where the land use has changed from agricultural to dense residential is a big deal. Liability for improper maintenance of the roads rises enormously. Any desire by the board to, for one, pave the road represents a desire to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, at least, which owners did not agree to when they bought.

What the governing documents say may very well justify lawyering up here. Especially since this board appears to have a reputation of ignorance of both its governing documents and California statutes.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Ellen do you add details that were not there? The developer had the land and sued the original HOA for access. This allowed for a special entry for the HOA to use. Now land is being sold off to a new development we assume. The HOA we do not know their full involvement with the current sale. It sounds like assumptions and not reality. I still do not see wasting HOA money on legal bills because of ones option versus the group.

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Melissa, read the thread. From above:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 08/02/2023 8:45 AM
Nobody is challenging the old easement. It just raised the question and I'm wondering for future reference. If the property is purchased for development, a developer surely will want to add infrastructure and re-route current agricultural dirt roads. And we may own other roads on the parcel.
The OP has asked general questions about whether the board can (1) on its own grant easements on roads in the future; and (2) pave, add sidewalks or add curves without owners' approval.

You are on record time and again for oppressing legitimate owner concerns, of grave import and with a clear basis in the governing documents and state law. Your posts to this thread are the usual circle of nonsense.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
And yours are always empathetic to a fault when there is a point no empathy is needed anymore ..

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
I want to make sure if the property is bought for development and the membership does vote to allow development of the road that we are well compensated with conditions and $$$ for sacrificing the purpose of granting the easement (allowing development instead of vineyard), for obstructing our fire exit, and for overburdening the easement. No more giveaways.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
So you want to be subjected to taxation. Got it.

Former HOA President
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It should be noted the money would NOT be going to any individual owners. It would go to the NON profit corporation of which you are a member. The tax of any sale profit would have to be paid by the HOA of which you and your neighbors pay.

So did you think the profit would go into your pockets individually? Or did you think the board would get it? That why going to sue? We know your going to sue for something. Just say for what already

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 11:14 AM
It should be noted the money would NOT be going to any individual owners. It would go to the NON profit corporation of which you are a member. The tax of any sale profit would have to be paid by the HOA of which you and your neighbors pay.

So did you think the profit would go into your pockets individually? Or did you think the board would get it? That why going to sue? We know your going to sue for something. Just say for what already

Melissa, aren't you late for your psychiatrist appointment?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Yes. I was going with you. Knew could get the truth out of you eventually what you wanted. Trying to find legal options to take to a lawyer ...

Waste of time trying to help someone who has goals only to help themselves and not the community. No wonder your HOA only pays attention to you when you sue.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/03/2023 11:43 AM
Yes. I was going with you. Knew could get the truth out of you eventually what you wanted. Trying to find legal options to take to a is pro
Waste of time trying to help someone who has goals only to help themselves and not the community. No wonder your HOA only pays attention to you when you sue.

My core question is pro-association you idiot. Moron.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Loser...

I am not pro HOA. I just live in one.

Former HOA President

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here