Fire Sprinklers - Limited Common Element?

What do the governing documents say about plumbing, pipes and utilities? If the latter review does not clarify things, then I tend to think the association's having taken responsibility for maintenance in the past points to the association being responsible for repairs, too.

Is this the same condo as the one in this thread you started: https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/351334/view/topic/Default.aspx? Because I see mention of "sprinklers" in this thread, as part of a post where you mention the Declaration's definition of "Community Systems."

The goal should be settling this without both sides lawyering up (whence the cost of the attorney could exceed the cost of the repair).

I know mold remediation is expensive.

We have sprinkler heads in our condos too. As ElleN suggests, your CC&Rs say that your'e responsible for utilities that serve your unit and no ours, ie., that only you use. that is the case for sprinkler heads. We've had a few of them leak over the years and the owner son the Unit is responsible for the repair/replacement.

As with your personal plumbing to your toilet or personal electricity to your outlets, Owners also are responsible for the sprinkler lines that serve only their unit.

So, of course, if it's roof or other structural leak, the HOA pays to repair replace.

Our State or county also requires an annual inspection. If there are issues with the sprinkler heads, the owners receive a report from the firm about what's wrong and what's needed to fix it them. We've actually had owners paint theirs to match their ceiling or something! The HOA only coordinates the inspection schedule.

I think I'd be a little concerned that an inspector didn't catch your sprinkler head's leak unless the inspection was done many months ago.

I didn't want to quote long sections of the documents, but it's really interesting that there is mention of the fire suppresion sprinkler system as being part of the common elements and "plumbing" inside the unit (including the main valve) being a limited common element. But there is no specific call out of the sprinkler heads and who is responsible, which I think must be an oversight in the documents.

I'll find out today what the property manager says. I'm not worried about the mold so much - it's a small area and this is Florida, land of mold and mildew.

I'm hoping it's a roof leak, because I suspect the sprinkler repair and drywall repair will be under the insurance deductible and have to come out of pocket if it's my responsibility.

718.115 Common expenses and common surplus.—
(1)(a) ...
... Unless the manner of payment or allocation of expenses is otherwise addressed in the declaration of condominium, the expenses of any items or services required by any federal, state, or local governmental entity to be installed, maintained, or supplied to the condominium property by the association, including, but not limited to, firesafety equipment or water and sewer service where a master meter serves the condominium, shall be common expenses whether or not such items or services are specifically identified as common expenses in the declaration of condominium, articles of incorporation, or bylaws of the association.

The overall sprinkler system is the HOA's responsibility, of course. So is the overall HVAC system, etc. The sprinkler heads in units, just like unit's toilet and plumbing line coming directly to it is the owner's responsibility. The sprinkler heads also are not mentioned in our documents. Both Elle and Jeff are talking about the overall systems, not the parts that exclusively serve one unit.

Our CC&R, Section 2.72, "Unit." Any utility fixtures that are located partially within the Unit and partially in the Common Area, such as electrical outlets, and that exclusively serve the Unit are part of the Unit. Areas within a dropped ceiling that contain utilities that serve two or more Condominiums are Common Area and not part of the Unit."

CC&R Sect. 8.1.3 "Water Damage and Mold. Notwithstanding any other provision herein, each Owner, and not the Association, is responsible to clean, remediate, repair and/or replace (as may be needed) any Improvements in a Unit, Exclusive Use Common Area or Common Area damaged or destroyed by the entry or intrusion of water or other substances into a building or any part of the Project, which entry, intrusion or damage (whether directly or indirectly due to a willful act, negligence or otherwise) (i) was caused by the Owner, Owner’s tenant or their respective family, guests, or invitees, (ii) originated from the plumbing lines or plumbing related fixtures or any utilities, fixtures or appliances which exclusively serve the Owner’s Unit and which the Owner is responsible to maintain, and/or (iii) was caused by the Owner’s failure to mitigate such intrusion or damage by promptly reporting signs of water or other substance intrusion, including but not limited to roof and window leaks resulting in water or other substances entering an Owner’s unit."

I don't think our CC&Rs are unique and her restated in '22 a HOA attorney's wording in most cases. If any item exclusively serves a unit, such as sprinkler heads, it' on owners.

In Lori's case, it's seem possible to me that the "main valve" Lori refers to might be her resolubility too if it only serves her unit.

Update - the COA property manager came and looked at it. It appears to be an issue with the sprinkler not the roof. They are responsible for the pipes, we are responsible for the sprinkler head. They have to get the fire supression specialist out to look at.

I asked our PM for the HOA (who has managed a lot of condos in his career) what he thought. He says most likely the pipe is cracked.

It will be interesting - if they fix the pipe, are we responsible for the drywall? I suspect yes.

Thanks for all the input. I can't imagine how hard it must be to manage condos.

I've never known anyone to paint over them - wouldn't that interfere with their operation? Ours are small, metal, and pretty much flush with the walls. Anyway, as far as I can tell from our Declaration, the heads are part of the system and thus common elements and were code when the buildings were constructed. And being pragmatic, we don't want to give anyone an excuse for not replacing them since they need to work in the event of a fire. If they were actually part of the unit, it would still make sense for the association to take care of everything at the same time and charge the unit owner for their portion of the expense.

Yes, of course, Cathy. But some owners, as you know, do stupid things. The HOA certainly did not pay to have them replaced.

Everyone needs to look at who is obligated to repair/maintain what's IN their separate interest unit when the item serves ONLY that Unit. Cathy wrote, "...our Declaration says that owners are responsible for maintaining, repairing and replacing the parts of their units, while the association is responsible for maintaining the Common Elements."

Since my sprinkler heads serve ONLY my unit, how can they possibly be termed common elements? This isn't MY opinion but that of the first HOA law firm who wrote our declaration and the 2nd HOA law form who wrote the restatement of our declaration last year. Both firms are sizable, well-regarded, and specialize in high rise condos.

We've had many units in our 22 y.o. building rehabbed down to the studs and the sprinkler heads get dusty from major work. The HOA is supposed to send someone in to dust them??? And all owners are supposed to pay?

As noted above our PM does the scheduling of the agency-required mandatory sprinkler head inspection every year. The inspection firm contacts the owners with necessary repairs and the Owner repairs them.

I have many items in my unit that are served by common areas plumbing systems. that can leak water and I'm responsible if that happens. Our personal AC Units are water source heats pumps. Water from the common area closed loop system runs though mine and if mine leaks, it's on me.

I see where Lori's HOA also requires an inspection. but I do not see where she wrote the HOA "maintains" let alone repairs or replaces the sprinkler heads.

To add to Cathy's "In the past, some posters here have said that problems originating in the Common Elements are entirely the association's responsibility, but that's not my experience." It's not my experience in my HOA either. I'd say it's the most misunderstood aspect or our high rise.

I hope you mean everyone needs to read the Declaration and statutes to determine who is responsible for what.

It's entirely possible that some Florida condos do meet the conditions in the section of FS 718 that JeffT2 posted, meaning the sprinklers are a common element that the HOA maintains.Is the language supposed to list every component of the fire suppression sprinkler system? I think not. I could not judge this to be "an oversight."

Lori said the COA manager said the sprinkler heads are the owner's responsibility. This may or may not represent a correct reading of the documents. Granted Lori is likely not in a position to challenge the manager. Nor is it necessarily worth the expense of challenging this position.

Without more information I cannot come down on one side or the other here.

Oh, Cathy, our HOA is s entirely responsible for the system, of course! The agency does and has cited the HOA for various shortcomings that we've had to repair, including common area sprinkler heads. But how are units' sprinkler heads inspected annually if the agency doesn't do it? You're saying the manager does the inspection??

The "system" serves the entire building just as our plumbing system does. The systems are common area and HOA's obligation to repair/replace. Once elements of the system enter my unit they are, per my declaration and I in think most condos, my obligation to repair/replace.

With plumbing, it is the shut-off valves in my unit's ceilings that I must maintain & repair. They serve ONLY my unit. The flush handle of my toilet if a part of the "system" but is mine to maintain--it serves only my unit. The plumbing and drain lines inside my unit are a part of the "system," but serve only my unit, thus are mine to maintain/repair.

Jeff's citation, in part" "...Unless the manner of payment or allocation of expenses is otherwise addressed in the declaration of condominium..." I do think that most declarations DO state who is responsible for what. I think most say that if an element of the water or drain line ONLY serves my unit, I'm responsible. If my shut-off valve freezes or a sprinkler head in my unit doesn't work, the common area entire system is NOT affected.

Elle, Lori does not say her HOA maintains the sprinkler heads, only inspects them. Are you saying, Elle, that in the condo where you sat on the board for a year, owners were not responsible for the plumbing outlets (valves, piping, drain lines, faucets, etc) in their units that served only that unit?

Sill puzzled about the differences between my & Elle's take on this topic, I finally dragged myself to the referenced post by Lori. It raises many questions

Questions for Lori: Is your citation below about the condo you rent out with the sprinkler head problem?

If not, is it about a different HOA of perhaps detached homes and doesn't the "sprinkler or other lines" refer to sprinklers for landscaping?

https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/351334/view/topic/Default.aspx
1.15 “'Community Systems' means any and all cable television, telecommunication, security, alarm, irrigation, irrigation wells, sprinkler or other lines, pipes, conduits, wires, amplifiers, towers, antennae, equipment, materials, installations and fixtures ... installed by the developer ...."

Please do cite the section of your condo assn. declaration that includes this topic: "... there is mention of the fire suppression sprinkler system as being part of the common elements and "plumbing" inside the unit (including the main valve) being a limited common element."

Does the declaration for your condo define "unit?" Does it say anything about items in the unit that only serve the unit being owner's responsibility?

Does the valve you refer to that's in your unit for the fire suppression system serve only your Unit?

In our condo building the valve that turns off the water to individual units is in the common area hallway.

I'm thinking one of our problems here is not using the correct language. Lori's doc and my reserves study both refer to the Fire Suppression System. I should have caught that since I know that everything that makes the sprinklers work is not the "sprinkling system."

For those who might be interested. The City provides the water throughout our high rise buildings when our common fire alarm system is triggered by smoke. The sprinklers release water only in the area where the alarm(s) sounded. If, however, the city is unable to deliver the water due, say, to an electrical outage, our fire suppression system takes over. The 80,0000 gallon reservoir under our garage level P-3 is accessed by lines to a diesel "fire pump" which pumps the water to the alarmed area.

In the 17 years I've lived here, sprinklers only were triggered once. A resident decided to dry some apparel with a floor-standing circular fan in a closet, which blew on the items. The resident left. Somehow the fan sucked in some fabric into the fan blades, which created overheating causing smoke & a small fire just enough to set off the sprinklers in the closet & bedroom. Damage to the bedroom, closet & primary bath in the unit and the unit below was terrible. Another three units below were partially damaged.

My sprinkler head is only in my unit. It certainly can keep a fire from spreading as in my example;I would never say it protects only my unit. Protection isn't the issue. The issue is 'who' is responsible to maintain/repair/replace the sprinkler heads. I'm the only one whom it (and several others in my unit) serves. It's my private property and no one else can have access to it. I'm the only person who can screw it up.

Again from my CC&Rs, and probably in many condo CC&Rs, I use the word "serve' as in it: "Any utility fixtures that are located partially within the Unit and partially in the Common Area, such as electrical outlets, and that exclusively serve the Unit are part of the Unit."

What is your fire suppression system called in your reserve study, Cathy?

FWIW --

-- I do not consider a fire sprinkler system to be a "utility."

-- I think the problem here is that some of us "get" the importance of a fire sprinkler system to the safety of life and property, and others do not. This is to the point that the latter appears to insist that no way could a fire sprinkler system's sprinkler heads, located inside a unit, possibly be the responsibility of the HOA.

-- One owner who monkeys with a sprinkler head so as to make it not operable, and it is curtains. Especially in the heat we are seeing now. I would never make this call without at least a full reading of the Declaration, the most recent reserve study and more. The liability if the board is wrong is enormous.

Kerry, all I know is that on this point, you repeatedly took the position that your condo's governing documents and policies must be the same as Lori's HOA's.

Kerry, your first, second and third posts to this thread, and possibly additional ones, repeatedly insist that the sprinkler heads at Lori's condo are the owner's responsibility to maintain.