Tales from the Swimming Pool #1 (pt 1)

Good for Kim and good for you for backing her.

According to the police around here, once someone "gets in your face" (which they define as within 10 feet of you), that fits the legal definition of harassment and police should absolutely be called. The police are trained to de-escalate situations (yes, really, despite what we hear on the news) and most civilians are not. And now you have a police report documenting the incident in case the board wants to take any action against "the perp".

Waiting for the next installment...

BillD,
I think the situation was handled properly. My only thought was is this is a Hill to Die on. This guest situation can be tricky.

As we all know families come in all shapes and sizes now days. It is very hard to say who is in your family and who isn't. I don't think I want our pool monitors making some of these judgement calls. What don't we know is how full was your pool at the time of the incident? Does your pool have a capacity issue that could have been used to stop additional guests? Every owner when confronted by a monitor of LG in your case wants to claim discrimination.

Hang in there Winter is coming in 3 months.

With Mark & ElleN: Is there a real rule about # of guests? Or # of persons per household? By "real" it was correctly approved by your board with Owners feedback (if required in TX). and it's been distributed per your gov docs or TX statue?

I do agree that Kim handled this as well as possible. Our HOA made a rule several years ago against residents yelling at or accusing staff of anything or basically getting in their face. The violation must have a witness. It's been enforced maybe three times with fines against the owners. Perhaps it's something your Board would want to consider.

Part 2:

{It may surprise some of you, but I can be a serious jerk}

Sunday 9 July 2023, 12:43pm:
Subject: Re: Yet Another Pool Incident
From: Bill D
To: Ryan F (Member at Large)
Cc: Board

> Calling 911 seems like an overreaction as well.

You've got a lot of bloody nerve second-guessing someone on their decision to call 911, Ryan. I guess you think she's just being a silly woman, huh? Oh, I've got it: she's being racist, too, right?

What part of “He started to argue with her, got in her face, wouldn't back off, so she called 911” do you not understand? What exactly would you have had her do differently?

Whatever rule Mr. T broke is irrelevant. He began acting aggressively towards a lifeguard, she asked him to leave, he refused, and so she called 911. Kim and all of the lifeguards have instructions from me to not put themselves in danger and to call 911 if they have to. I shouldn't even call them 'instructions' - it's simply a matter of basic human decency.

But I'll be sure to let Kim and the other lifeguards know how you feel. 

Sincerely,

Bill

* * *

Monday 10 July 2023, 2:37pm:
Subject: Re: Yet Another Pool Incident
From: Ryan F (Member at Large)
To: Bill D
Cc: Board

Bill,

I am asking questions out of due diligence.

Please don't talk down to me in this condescending manner and please don't sneak in CCs {ed:???} to my emails. That was really uncalled for and unprofessional.

This will be my last communication with you on this matter.

Sincerely,
Ryan

* * *

Monday 10 July 2023, 4:55pm:
Subject: Re: Yet Another Pool Incident
From: Bill D
To: Ryan F (Member at Large)
Cc: Board

> I am asking questions out of due diligence.

"Calling 911 seems like an overreaction as well." is not a question. It's a judgment you are making. For all of your virtue-signaling and your hair-trigger reaction regarding anything that could remotely be considered 'racist', it was unbelievably offensive to see you state that Kim 'overreacted' by calling 911. You weren't there, and you have absolutely no idea of what it's like when a woman feels threatened by a man, but you felt you had to weigh in with your opinion that she 'overreacted'. That you immediately focused on "what rule was broken?" and disregarded the fact that the woman felt threatened enough to call 911 speaks volumes about your motivations and your lack of good judgment.

Sincerely,

Bill

* * *

Tuesday 11 July 2023, ~3pm:

{I awoke from a nap to a text message that Ryan has resigned from the Board}

{cue 1950s Bible Epic music}

THE END?

Errata:

- The LGs above are Mexican-American, Red Cross trained and certified, and have been in business for the past 4 years. This is my neighborhood’s first experience with them. IMHO, they’ve been great. They also employ two other LGs at our pool: a black woman and a white woman.
- If it matters, Ryan, Mr. T, and Mr. L are all Asian.
- I’m aware of 5 incidents so far this year that had racial overtones. One was a white person directing a racial slur at one of the LGs. Four incidents involved an Asian person claiming racism / discrimination at a LG.
- IMHO, the LGs are neither racist nor discriminatory. I am arguably biased.
- Regarding the number of guests: the pool was not overly crowded, but in past years we’ve had *huge* issues with trespassers and tailgaters. Last Labor Day (when we had no LGs) someone threw a huge party that caused a lot of damage and cost a lot of money to clean up. It wasn’t the first time. I didn’t give the LGs specific instructions; I just asked them to try to keep trespassers and tailgaters out. I was told “sure thing - we’ve done it before - we know how to do it”. And the LGs have acquired a solid working awareness of the pool “regulars” (as well as numerous “irregulars”).
- “Is this a hill I want to die upon?” No, but I’m okay with taking some shrapnel. I take all of this stuff seriously. And over time I’ve developed solid relationships with our PM, our pool guy, the porter who services the pool restrooms, our landscaper, our LGs, our ACC. The majority of them do a good job and I’m a bit protective of them. There are always people talking trash, either out of ignorance or pure spite, and I try to set the record straight. Usually I’m much better at it than I was here.
- And yes, one could argue that perhaps I should invest in my relationships with the other Board members as well. Believe it or not, I do try. It’s much more difficult.

All of that said: I’m not sad that Ryan is gone. I *do* wonder if I’ve turned into a Machiavellian bastard. I always thought that if that happened, I’d feel very poorly about it. But in fact I feel great today. And I’m not even high.

I’m sharing this story here because, well, frankly, I need to vent. And maybe this is alternative to going to confession at my local church. And I’m always interested in y’all’s comments. And possibly this will be of some use to someone in the future.

Thank you,

Bill

Bill, thank you for understanding that women perceive aggression much differently from men. We grow up learning that half of the human race are potentially predators with the physical strength to kill us. Yup, we'll probably call 911 sooner and for situations that a man wouldn't. And I can tell you that whenever there's a story in the news about a woman being harmed by a man, there will be a Greek Chorus asking why she didn't leave/run/trust her instincts.

It isn't surprising we call 911. What may be surprising is that so many women have such finely honed instincts that they are still able to have warm, loving relationships with men.

ElleN,
You have a second from me on Cathy's post. As a guy sometimes we forget the obvious and need to get a "Tune Up" every once in a while.

Methinks you hit a nerve with Ryan - oh, well. Some of what you said I would have said to him- via a phone call or in person (and some of you know I'm capable of that!)

Perhaps it's best he's not on the board anymore - I understand wanting to be cautious because of potential liability, but NO ONE should be compelled to be treated like a pinata because "I pay your salary", "it's your job" or some such. Same with being a volunteer for a HOA board. And then people wonder why no one will volunteer.

If this homeowner has a valid concern, he needs to grow the hell up and address it like an adult instead of a 12year old.

I’ll look into it. I just met with our attorney last week primarily to discuss pool matters, and in theory she is at work this very moment on a new set of pool rules for us. I’ll let y’all know how that goes.

For what little it’s worth - our (dated) pool rules are highly available, and I’ve been telling people “Rule #1 is respect the LGs” ever since they came on duty. I get that The Rules should be written down and stuff - but isn’t “Respect the LGs” a given, common-sense ‘rule’ at, like, every public swimming pool in North America?

Bill

Once again, from the cheap seats: Yes it is. I mean Life... Guard. People should take seriously directions from someone guarding their lives.

But if they are not, then I think a HOA maybe needs to be able to nail someone, with a very concrete rule, when things are getting out of hand and the someone is not taking direction from the LG. Hence my suggestion to make it crystal clear what people are supposed to do when the LG says "Leave the pool area, now."

R-E-S-P-E-C-T... Find out what it means to the LG...

Kerry,
Your last words on the lady that Coughed on your PM would have sent me over the edge. I think that it could have been grounds for an arrest. It is similar to someone spitting on an individual. Again, I am not a lawyer but that crossed some major line IMO. Fines are the least of what should have happened. I would think at a minimum a restraining order to keep her away from your PM might have been a start.

Yes,MarkM, it was horrifying!

But as usual, there is context. The violator. "Lu" and PM always had gotten along well, almost buddies. Lu served actively on an important committee, and seemed very devoted to our community. She donated a nice article to our newsletter about a topic of interest to our residents. She was upbeat, fun, charming & witty. She's a professional woman of perhaps 60. Before the hearing, our PM told the Board that Lu had since apologized profusely to her and they were on good terms again. She even asked that we not discipline Lu.

Lu attended the hearing (none of the other violators had). She was very embarrassed and could only explain that it had been a very tough medical day. She didn't use that as an excuse but said she definitely was overwrought, out of sorts and really wanted & needed the missing item for delivery. She again apologized to our PM, who was present. We sat stony-faced and the chair solemnly thanked her for coming to the hearing. We fined her the $100 and warned in writing that future repitition of the behavior would cause a doubling of the fine and withholding use of our amenities including attending our social events (which Lu did use).

She moved to another state a few months later due to the health reasons she'd alluded to.

Liz,
I brought this up in the past. We only use the term Monitor for many of the reasons you mentioned. Most HOA pools specifically state that entrants are swimming at their own risk which makes the term LG confusing to me. I personally correct anyone on my board who uses the LG term because I would hate to have it come back to haunt us.

I am sure Bill will explain but if my memory serves me correctly, he has 2 LGs onsite at the same time so maybe they are able to do both duties. I would assume that in this case mentioned both LGs would have been involved.

This a very good point, and I haven’t really said anything about this aspect of the situation. But: no, the LGs are not security guards. The pool is not a bar. There are no bouncers. The LGs and I have discussed this: in this kind of situation, where someone has been asked to leave - calling 911 is really the only option{1}.

I personally find the racial and gender aspects of this stuff extremely distasteful. But since it came up: it is not at all impossible that Mr. T had issues with a female Mexican-American LG (this possibility was raised by my wife, and she firmly believes it is so). And while I genuinely had no plans to act like Authority and boss people around, the truth is that I went up to the pool thinking that the mere appearance of some kind of “authority figure” - possibly a *male* authority figure, even a *white male* authority figure - would be required to get everyone to stand down. I’m not happy about it. But I’m not an idiot and in some ways my weird brain condition affords me a more accurate view of reality than the one observed by normal people. And I gotta tell ya: our base state of reality is pretty grim.

Bill

{1} or, sure, the LGs could just try to pretend they never asked them to leave … I’m all for de-escalation, but I’m not at all certain it’s the best course here.

BillS wrote: "Regarding The Rules: when I spoke to our attorney last week, she was of the opinion that the Board had the freedom to adopt new pool rules with only a Board vote at a ‘noticed’ meeting. She’s going to include instructions with the shiny new rules she will be sending us any day now. I do plan to ask her about the entire issue of 'asking someone to leave.'"

I think that's the very best thing. Have rules in writing and certain pool rules posted. If all you need in Texas is open meeting board approval, great. As it stands, it seems Mr. T is saying the rules aren't clear or aren't posted. Unless a LG failed to ask ask a different group of a different race to leave that had too many people in the pool area, I can't see how Mr. T. can claim "discrimination" or even "unequal enforcement." Don't worry about that one.

I don't recall if you have any security staff at your HOA, BillD. We do at our central gated urban condo bldg. 24/7. Our MC insists we call them "access control officers" or ACOs as using the word "security" gives residents a false sense of it. And "guards" just sounds too scary & coarse. . Anyway, for Liz, on the RARE occasions when an ACO thinks s/he h needs to instruct someone to leave the pool area, they'd, unless outrageously bad conduct requiring immediate attention, which hasn't happened here, contact our onsite PM first. I think they would even on weekends, in the evenings. Our ACOs as in all high rises around us do not ever touch any alleged violator of any kinds.

I don't think BillD's HOA will collect enough in fines to use them to "tip" LGs. Even year after Thanksgiving, our PM sends out a jolly solicitation to all owners to contribute to the Holiday Fund for all of your staffers except the PM and Chief Engineer. There are a few ways to do it, one of which is to select how you want your gift divided among staff, or naming only a few staff. In Bill's HOA, some owners may really adore the LGs, and others may never use the pool.

As noted, billD, I'm helping the Board here rewrite our Rules & Regs and might have some pool rules wording for you if you're interested. Your HOA attorney probably has a good template, but each association has its own personality.

> Consider asking how others here would have responded?
>
> Believe me, your emailed responses to "Ryan" got my attention. Until and if you say "go," ...

OMG GO GO GO GO GO !!!

> I will hold off with what I hope I would have said in the heat of the moment.
>
> I am sure you have dealt with enough.

And yet my little heart is going pitter-pat pitter-pat in anticipation. Please do share!

Bill

Thank you!

I understand what you're saying, and I see the wisdom in it.

I don't feel like you're asking me to justify what I wrote - and I appreciate that - and I'm quite willing to concede that there was lots of "wrong" in my response. But I did it "my way" because even after sleeping on it, I was massively PO'ed and sick and tired of his crap.

I won't go into the details of what his "crap" was except to comment that there's probably a larger discussion lurking here about the issues involved in working with a Board when one or more members is not particularly competent.

Good night, y'all!

Bill

Epilogue: Mr. T stopped in at the pool and apologized to the lifeguards.

I’m happy.

Bill

It is hot in Texas. BillD16 has given many hours and much energy as a volunteer to help people cool off and enjoy the pool safely.

When "member-at-large" Director Ryan has served as the Pool Committee Chair, then I might give him some "props" (as the kids say, meaning "propery respect"). But Ryan has not. Ryan does zippo except show up for board meetings and vote. Ryan is not even smart enough to leave discussion for board meetings.

If I were either the president or former Director Ryan, I would be so happy that someone was willing to give as much time as BillD16 has.

If BillD16 says something in the heat of the moment, and in particular, in the name of safety, I would cut him enormous slack.

Maybe a person has to know and understand the hazards of swimming and how drownings happen in swimming pools quite often. Every time a lifeguard has to deal with a "Mr. T" this is this much less attention the LG can give to ensuring the safety of people in the pool. LizD3's point is well-taken by me.

Thinking of the posts BillD16 has made here in recent months about the pool, from afar as a mere internet rando, I am concerned that the pool has become a powder keg of hot tempers, racism (and some sexism maybe?), and unruly conduct. I hope Bill can tell me that no, it's not that bad; the incidents are pretty isolated; and people are enjoying the pool happily and safely apart from these incidents.

If you are concerned about unruly conduct, why would you not be concerned about how members address one another on the board? If board members can't act civilly, why do demand civility from homeowners? Disciplining other board members is certainly not in the duties of the "Treasurer". I would cut BillD16 some slack if President. I certainly know how it feels to do the majority of work.

I blush.

I really just want to try to do a good job.

I’m kinda blown away at ElleN’s observational prowess, because their description of Ryan as a Board member is spot-on.

Oh, my ‘body count’ is not all Board members: 2 or 3 of them are PMs (one moved to a new job when they learned I was going to run for the Board; one left unexpectedly about the same time I uncovered their systematic abuse of violations to unfairly harass and fine a lady who lost her husband of 40+ years to COVID; one was just so awful that it was a matter of leading the Board in telling the mgmt company that we simply could not work with this person anymore). 4 of them were Board members (one was a personality conflict that I still don’t understand - the guy would not stop talking down to me like I was a child, despite my repeated requests that he stop; one was an almost accidental consequence of the then-President employing Texas Property Code 209.0051 to delay the forgiving of the fines levied on the aforementioned widow lady, as 209.0051 also requires that vacancies be filled at an open meeting, and then-President had illegally filled a vacant Board position with a friend; one of them was the then-President himself, after I found 3 volunteers to successfully run for the Board and instituted some “regime change” and he went from President to Secretary and shortly thereafter resigned; and finally Ryan, who was a disappointment in many ways, the biggest being that he thought he was being a full contributor just by making suggestions ala “We need to do something about X!” but he never had the time himself to do the work. I don’t know how it goes on other Boards, but on ours, if you’ve got a Big Idea, you need to be prepared to execute on that Big Idea yourself)(he was also not very good at reading public opinion - from the beginning he wanted to push lots of F2F activities and get people together physically, which is normally a fine thing but not in the wake of COVID. Despite whatever Official Word there is stating that COVID iIs Over, there are still many people who are taking precautions and avoiding unnecessary risk). I know, fascinating stuff *snore*. If I sound cold-blooded - maybe I am. But golly, there seem to be a lot of problems in my HOA that, when examined closely, are the result of a person doing a poor job.

Mark, I’m not sure I’m reading you correctly, but you seem to imply that the President would be the one to take issue with my occasional ‘direct’ remarks to other Board members. I’m curious: why the President? I thought that the President is essentially equal to all other Board members, with the additional powers of a) calling meetings / setting meeting agendas, and b) appointing committees? (and, pragmatically c) they are often by contract the Single Official Point of Contact with a mgmt company).

I’ve never been censured. Does it hurt?

Bill