California - Does your HOA IDR policy have any deadlines or timeframes?

California - Does your HOA IDR policy have any deadlines or timeframes?

So I was looking at 5910(b)

"The procedure shall provide for prompt deadlines. The procedure shall state the maximum time for the association to act on a request invoking the procedure."

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5910#axzz2CgHrcBrn

Then there is 5915 the "Default Meet and Confer Procedure"

"This section applies to an association that does not otherwise provide a fair, reasonable, and expeditious dispute resolution procedure. The procedure provided in this section is fair, reasonable, and expeditious within the meaning of this article"

(4) The parties shall meet promptly at a mutually convenient time and place, explain their positions to each other, and confer in good faith in an effort to resolve the dispute.
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5915#axzz2CgHrcBrn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a little confused. 5910 specifically requires 'prompt' deadlines and a maximum time, yet 5915 only has 'meet promptly" which is a little ambiguous.

Our IDR Policy only has "The parties shall meet promptly" regarding time frames..

JamesB37, I think you found a significant inconsistency in the statute sections. I suppose either the HOA or owners could argue that since the HOA's procedure fails to specify a maximum time, then the HOA must comply with 5915.

Has someone requested IDR, and is the HOA dragging its feet? If not, I would point out the problem to the board and see what it does.

Thanks for the replies

Ellen - I asked for copies of some specific invoices back in March as well as the general ledger for the month of April, and it appears that they simply ignored my request. In May, I asked for IDR, trying to figure out where the problem was - is it the Board or the PMC? (maybe the Board doesn't even know about it)

It took 30 days and repeated inquiries just for them to acknowledge the request and then the date for the meeting was another 2+ weeks out, so about 50 days from the date of the IDR request to the first meeting.

Liz - I agree

Thanks Ellen

I have started sending 'demand letters' to help document the different violations. I don't plan on doing anything further at this point, but once I have a meeting with the Board Member if they continue down this path, I just may try the small claims court approach. From what I understand, I have a year to do so.

I asked ChatGPT to write a demand letter for me, and I thought it did a pretty good job, so I am using that as a template with some minor modifications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, State, ZIP Code]
[Email Address]
[Phone Number]
[Date]

[Recipient's Name]
[Recipient's Address]
[City, State, ZIP Code]

Re: Demand for Production of Legal Documents

Dear [Recipient's Name],

I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to bring to your attention a matter of utmost importance regarding the production of legal documents to which I am entitled under California law.

As you are aware, I have made several requests, both written and verbal, for the production of certain legal documents in your possession or control. These documents are crucial for me to exercise my rights and protect my interests. Unfortunately, despite my repeated requests, you have failed to produce the requested documents within a reasonable timeframe.

I want to emphasize that the production of these legal documents is not merely a request but a legal obligation. Under California law, specifically under [cite the relevant statute or regulation if applicable], I am entitled to access and review these documents. Your failure to comply with this obligation is a violation of my rights.

I demand that you immediately produce the following documents to me:

[Specify the document(s) you are requesting, including any identifying information such as document numbers or dates]
I expect the requested documents to be provided to me in their entirety within [a reasonable timeframe, e.g., 14 days] from the date of this letter. Failure to do so will leave me with no choice but to pursue all available legal remedies to enforce my rights.

Please be aware that should I be forced to take legal action, I may seek reimbursement for any costs incurred, including attorney's fees and court costs, as permitted by law.

I strongly urge you to reconsider your position and fulfill your legal obligations by promptly producing the requested documents. It is in both of our interests to resolve this matter amicably and without the need for further escalation.

I expect to receive your written response acknowledging this demand and confirming the production of the requested documents within [a reasonable timeframe]. You may reach me at [your contact information] should you require any further clarification or to discuss this matter further.

Thank you for your immediate attention to this matter. I trust that you will promptly comply with this demand, thereby avoiding the need for legal action.

Sincerely,

[Your Name]

Great letter, but a bit long (people don’t seem to read much these days). Here's a very rough first draft of what I'd do (it is generally a good idea to get to the point right away):

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, State, ZIP Code]

[Date]

[Recipient's Name]
[Recipient's Address]
[City, State, ZIP Code]

Re: Demand for Production of Legal Documents

Dear [Recipient's Name],

Please provide the following documents either via email to [your [email protected]] or mail [your street address], or book a time for me to view the following at the HOA office by contacting me at [your telephone number]:
1. ______ [be very specific about what documents you want]
2. ______
3. ______ [etc. for the number of documents you want]

As a member of our Association, I am legally permitted to review these documents as per [statute – include the number and a quote is probably a good idea].

If I have not viewed these documents by [date – you might want to give them 30 days], I will file a suit in small claims court to secure access. In addition, I will seek reimbursement for all costs incurred, including court costs and attorney's fees.

Thank you,

[your name]

LizD3's draft letter is almost exactly the style I would use. I am surprised ChatGPT did not write a letter more like hers.

If this is the first demand letter for these documents, I would not threaten suit at this time.

LOL - tonight I received an email from a law firm that I had never heard of. Their office is about 100 miles and a couple of counties away. They emailed me a 'document retention letter'. Basically, I need to "preserve all potentially relevant evidence, including all physical copies and electronically stored information." yada yada yada

No doubt it is regarding the demand letter I sent. The funny part is I contacted one of the Board Members that I am on speaking terms with and they do not know anything about it or never heard of this law firm. Keep in mind, if I did decide to seek legal action, it would be in small claims court.

All the PMC had to do was hand over a couple of documents that I am entitled to see. At this point it appears the PMC may be acting on it's own (without the Board's approval) in contacting this law firm. I just don't understand, why go to the effort and expense instead of just following the law?

Kerry - I sent the letter Saturday Night and the Attorney emailed me last night. The Board Member I contacted has no knowledge of this attorney. In fact, they were using a previous attorney, who was local to us, and they finally got tired of him running up the costs and stopped using him. The fact that they would get another attorney, whose law firm appears to handle general business type stuff (nothing about HOA's, etc) and is so far away, is really perplexing.

Last night I emailed back to the law firm - where they sure they were representing our HOA because one of our Board Members knows nothing about it. I also CC'd the owner of the PMC who actually responded a short time later that she also knew nothing about it - and she is the one who I have to now send all me emails to, so she definitley knew about my demand letters. (The attorney also has the email address I use for HOA stuff as well as my complete adress)

Still haven't heard anything yet today, even though I asked the attorney to contact me. If the deicision to get an attorney involved, it was not made in a legal 'executive session' and even if they did have an emergency meeting, all the board members should have been aware of it.

No candidates night. We have never done one, there is no place to hold it and I doubt the incumbents would even participate. Our HOA does the bare minimum required when it comes to elections. I think they are counting on not meeting quorum and then they just get to keep their position for basically forever or until we hold a valid election. In fact, a couple of years ago, 2 of them were up for re-election, they turned in blank applications... I do think it is a good idea going forward that I will try to implement if I do get elected this year.

Yes, I think our PMC is definitely going rogue or at the very least, the president may be in on it.

Sure, I would like to hear what you have to say on the matter

Let's see if this works - redacted pdf attached

And I agree, I don't even think the HOA Board authorized hiring this attorney. The HOA pays a yearly fee and has an agreement with the other, local attorney.

JamesB37, my take, from experience as a director:

A HOA has to let its insurer know anytime there is a threat of litigation. Why? Because for one thing, the insurance policy provides some-to-all of the indemnification for directors' and officers' actions. The insurance company needs to be able to protect both the HOA's and its interests as best it can.

You made several requests/demands. You received either no response, delays or refusals. Presumably these demands escalated in tone. If one really wants certain corporate records, then one is stuck escalating to the point of threatening a lawsuit. Savvy HOA attorneys know this IMO. If the attorney (or board?) does not like the request, the attorney/board ignores the request until a lawsuit threat is made. This triggers action by either the HOA attorney or an attorney paid for by the HOA's insurer.

Unfortunately the attorneys are doing their job when they send you a "document retention letter." Any electronic communications that you hope to use as proof now must meet a much more rigorous standard. For example, on your computer or phone, if you delete any exchange between you and the HOA or the HOA's agents, then ultimately in court you could find a judge ruling against you, because you did not abide by the document retention instruction.

Necessary as it is (from the attorneys' viewpoint), IMO the document retention instruction is a powerful tool that the HOA can use to harass you and possibly to pummel you in court.

Prepare for things to escalate further. E.g. the HOA may start billing you for what it pays the HOA attorney. This is likely not legal, but you would have to expend enormous time and possibly money to fight these billings.

Once the HOA attorney has informed you that he/she represents the HOA on such-and-such issue, communications on this issue are supposed to go through the attorney.

You face a board who may not care how much of owners' money they spend on the attorney. You face an attorney paid well to be either a stone wall or a pit bull. "Truth" and "fairness" are not the attorney's job. Going after you is the attorney's job. Worse, it's entirely lawful. The so-called adversarial system of law works only when both sides have the money to pay for their own attorneys.

I figure a HOA-Owner nuclear arms race has likely begun at your HOA. It happens too often.

From experience, if I were you I would consider whether the best use of my time and energy would be to drop the records issue. Instead perhaps the better use of my time and energy would be to work to get a fair election and also campaign to fill a majority of the board seats with people who feel as I do.

Ellen - thanks for the info, but any 'legal action' that I would take would be small claims court! It is even written into the law. Check out subsection (b).

But the bottom line, why would the waste HOA money when all they had to do was to produce the documents or explain why they couldn't or didn't have to?

We have (3) new people running as well as (1) incumbent who has 'signed on' to our ticket so to speak for the (5) positions. Election is in three weeks. Our biggest hurdle at this point is to make quorum, and I feel confident that we will, but you never know. This letter from the attorney I think just helps our situation. Most people can see that all I was doing was asking for documents that any homeowner is entitled to inspect and copy and they are refusing. I kind of mentioned all the other things I caught the PMC doing, double-dipping on their contract, etc. so I think people are ready for a change. No one wants to see our dues wasted on something stupid like this.

Again, I don't even think the board endorsed/authorized this action

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Civil Code § 5235. Enforcement of Inspection Rights.

(a) A member may bring an action to enforce that member’s right to inspect and copy the association records. If a court finds that the association unreasonably withheld access to the association records, the court shall award the member reasonable costs and expenses, including reasonable attorney’s fees, and may assess a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars ($500) for the denial of each separate written request.

(b) A cause of action under this section may be brought in small claims court if the amount of the demand does not exceed the jurisdiction of that court.

(c) A prevailing association may recover any costs if the court finds the action to be frivolous, unreasonable, or without foundation.

-- I do not understand your point.

-- You and I know that California small claims court does not allow attorneys in court. But you do realize that the HOA will be getting advice from its attorney on how to proceed in small claims court, right? Hence the documents retention letter. You may think it irrational. The insurer and its attorney might not.

-- Perhaps re-read what I said above about how, to preserve a HOA's right to indemnity by the insurer, the HOA must immediately report lawsuit threats to the insurer. Subsequently the insurer's direction may be for the HOA to retain counsel and go on the offense. I suspect this has happened here.

-- You do realize that if you win in small claims court, the HOA has the right to appeal to Superior Court, right? When it does, the gloves come off. You will have to lawyer up, or the chances of your winning in Superior Court fall close to zero.Would the answer to this question make any difference?

The ball now is the coming election. I say: Keep your eye on the ball.Or it makes you radioactive.

People who have been through lawsuits know how invasive and demoralizing discovery is. Lawsuits have little to do with fairness. I think no client feels good during a lawsuit. Instead lawsuits are about which attorney is the bigger pit bull. Worse, you and your fellow owners get to pay for the attorneys here, as they entertain themselves with a battle that in the slightly bigger scheme of things, is not even good TV soap opera. But it sure pays the attorneys well.You kind of accused the PMC of stealing?

In complete seriousness, if this "mention" is reasonably documented, even if only through witness statements, be ready to be sued for defamation of the PMC.

The insurer might have.

I think you should stop guessing. I think you should assume the attorney is legitimately representing whomever it named in the letter you received. The more energy you put into these other issues, the less energy you have to put towards your campaign.

Three weeks to go to the election. It sounds like you have a decent chance of winning three of the five seats.

Do the math. I advise: Drop pursuit of this records request now and any other discussion of it with anyone.

I completely agree with ElleN and also have urged JamesB in several of his prior postings to focus on a positive campaign. I advised this based on two successful campaigns to get rid of bad Boards via elections here at my years apart.

Yet, JamesB writes "I kind of mentioned all the other things I caught the PMC doing, double-dipping on their contract, etc. so I think people are ready for a change. No one wants to see our dues wasted on something stupid like this." "Kind of mention" caught my eye too. That approach doesn't feel positive to me. It very well may repel voters from your candidacy. BUT, James, you might be right that it's vote bait and WILL help turn out the vote, we hope in your favor.

I'd asked where will your Assoc. hold the annual meeting and election on Aug. 1?

"No right of discovery and the matter is heard without a jury"

I never planned on taking any legal action, because as an HOA member, we all end up paying for it one way or another.

My intent was to get the PMC to acknowledge and honor the law. (I want the documents, plain and simple and they are required to provide them)

Ellen, you make good points and I respect your opinion. I get it. But, I think when an ordinary, reasonable person hears that the HOA had a choice, with the law clearly on my side (spend a couple of minutes and email some files or hire an attorney) what do you think that they are going to think, especially when they realize that they are funding this foolishness?

3 more weeks, and I have been through discovery before