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SamS10 (Alaska)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Question about this. I live in a 1 party state that also has OPEN meeting laws for HOA's.

What happens if I attend a board meeting, recording it, and one of the Directors tells me they do not want to be recorded, they do not consent.

OK, cool...well its a 1 party state, so what....

Can the Directors remove me from the Board Meeting guest audience?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
They can remove you for making any disturbances for doing so. I do not see a big purpose of recording a meeting if you are not the Secretary. That is your personal choice. Otherwise can look a little aggressive on your end.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
1. Look up your state law about recording. Sometimes you need permission, sometimes you don't.
2. If you pass the state test, the HOA would have to have a duly enacted rule banning recording to make you stop.

With all the Zoom meetings, people are used to being recording. If your meeting is Zoom and in person, everyone who stays has given explicit or implicit permission to be recorded. If state or HOA bans recording without permission, you would probably have to leave if you refused to stop recording but not otherwise.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Here's what wisevoter.com has to say about one party states:

"The one party consent states (or single-party consent states) are states that have adopted one party consent laws, where only one person involved in a conversation needs to give consent for the recording to be legal. In these states, individuals are allowed to record conversations without the knowledge or consent of the other party or parties involved. This can have various implications, such as enabling individuals to gather evidence for legal purposes, document important conversations, or protect themselves in certain situations. It is worth noting that even in one party consent states, there are limitations on the use and dissemination of recorded conversations."

Please pay attention to that last sentence and consider Melissa's question - why do you want to record the board meeting and what will you do with it? If you can't answer that question from that board member and anyone else who attends (who might not want to be recorded either), perhaps you should skip it. What's wrong with you bringing a notebook and taking down notes - it can be a bit tedious, but it'll force you to pay attention to what's being said.

This is a business meeting and although most people don't care about recordings because they know how to stay on topic and not muddy the waters by insults, cursing and that crap, it can also have a chilling effect on being candid about those issues. And how does anyone know you won't slice and dice the recording and then distribute that to embarrass or quote someone completely out of context?

So if the directors don't want to be recorded, you say no and an argument ensues, they could either have you removed or adjourn the meeting and reschedule. That could affect time-sensitive issues that should be addressed at that meeting, but couldn't get done because you know yer raghts and F everyone else...

In case you're wondering, this isn't related to open HOA board meetings - those statutes mean any HOA member can attend association meetings, usually regular board meetings, annual meetings and special homeowner meetings. They probably don't apply to executive sessions by the board, which are generally used to address sensitive issues like CCR violation appeals or delinquent accounts. Which is why it's best to have them sparingly.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Welcome to the forum. This is crowd based problem solving. Consensus happens once in awhile but more often, a simple majority viewpoint emerges. Keep a thick skin. Try to answer all questions put to you. If you do not understand what someone is saying, say so, homing in on what is confusing.

Quote:
Posted By SamS10 on 06/29/2023 11:42 AM
Question about this. I live in a 1 party state that also has OPEN meeting laws for HOA's.

What happens if I attend a board meeting, recording it, and one of the Directors tells me they do not want to be recorded, they do not consent.

OK, cool...well its a 1 party state, so what....

Can the Directors remove me from the Board Meeting guest audience?
The HOA is a corporation. The board is allowed to make reasonable rules for the use of common areas and meetings. I say yes, the board is on solid legal ground to throw you out of the meeting if and when it detects you are recording.

The one-party rule is not really relevant here. You consent. Others do not. But what's more controlling is the authority the corporate board has under these conditions.

Is the board reasonable to throw you out? I say yes, because some people are intimidated by being recorded. Plus it's no fun to be put on youtube when one does not expect it. And I could care less that this might not be one's intent. No one can say for sure what another is going to do with the recording.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Now that I know what a 1 party state is........unless your association has a duly enacted rule prohibiting recording, they can't throw you out.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 06/29/2023 1:44 PM
Now that I know what a 1 party state is........unless your association has a duly enacted rule prohibiting recording, they can't throw you out.
The Jones's down the street throw a party. You bring your phone and start recording conversations. Can the Jones's throw you out?

If so, how is this different from the board exercising its prerogative to throw someone out of a corporate board meeting?
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Members have a right to attend open board meetings. You have to be invited to the Jones' house. Unless there is a duly enacted rule that members can't record and a rule that they can be expelled from the meeting, he's OK.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 06/29/2023 2:44 PM
Unless there is a duly enacted rule that members can't record and a rule that they can be expelled from the meeting, he's OK.
You and I agree that a properly enacted, board-created rule can result in lawful expulsion from the meeting.

I take it one step further and say that the instant the board detects recording, and the board reasonably believes this is disrupting the meeting, the board can throw the guy out.
SamS10 (Alaska)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 06/29/2023 12:35 PM
They can remove you for making any disturbances for doing so. I do not see a big purpose of recording a meeting if you are not the Secretary. That is your personal choice. Otherwise can look a little aggressive on your end.

how is recording a meeting equal to making a disturbance? We are an open meeting state and a 1party state. consent is not required of other parties as long as 1 party consents (me).
SamS10 (Alaska)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 06/29/2023 1:19 PM
Welcome to the forum. This is crowd based problem solving. Consensus happens once in awhile but more often, a simple majority viewpoint emerges. Keep a thick skin. Try to answer all questions put to you. If you do not understand what someone is saying, say so, homing in on what is confusing.

Posted By SamS10 on 06/29/2023 11:42 AM
Question about this. I live in a 1 party state that also has OPEN meeting laws for HOA's.

What happens if I attend a board meeting, recording it, and one of the Directors tells me they do not want to be recorded, they do not consent.

OK, cool...well its a 1 party state, so what....

Can the Directors remove me from the Board Meeting guest audience?
The HOA is a corporation. The board is allowed to make reasonable rules for the use of common areas and meetings. I say yes, the board is on solid legal ground to throw you out of the meeting if and when it detects you are recording.

The one-party rule is not really relevant here. You consent. Others do not. But what's more controlling is the authority the corporate board has under these conditions.

Is the board reasonable to throw you out? I say yes, because some people are intimidated by being recorded. Plus it's no fun to be put on youtube when one does not expect it. And I could care less that this might not be one's intent. No one can say for sure what another is going to do with the recording.


thank you. there are zero rules about this topic. Just their statement saying they don't want to be recorded. In fact, last meeting, I tried recording, the told me no consent, i turned it off, and they went off on a long tirade that certainly would be incriminating if it was recorded....
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamS10 on 06/29/2023 3:56 PM
there are zero rules about this topic. Just their statement saying they don't want to be recorded. In fact, last meeting, I tried recording, the told me no consent, i turned it off, and they went off on a long tirade that certainly would be incriminating if it was recorded....
Incriminating how? Is this drama, or is the board violating criminal statutes, bylaws, covenants or civil statutes?

It seems clear that you do not like what the board is doing. In my experience the best HOA attorneys advise the quickest way to remedy this is by campaigning for the board with others who feel as you do, and aiming to win a majority of the seats. Like MarkM19 said in another thread. Are you going to do this?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
If there was a rule saying a member could be expelled from a meeting for being disruptive (although I don't think recording is being disruptive if there is no rule against it), just how would the board do it? You can touch someone, you can't call the police. It seems you would have to adjourn the meeting. Our chairman seems to like disruption. It's a free-for-all. One member threatened to go get his gun and use it on my husband and the chairman did nothing.
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
Oops, you CAN'T touch someone.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
How does it look aggressive? It's a passive-aggressive move as you can get. It's like saying to someone "I am NOT touching you" while pointing your finger at them. Honestly, what if you went to Starbucks to talk to a friend and someone insists it's a One Party state so I can record you! What is the purpose?

I can't imagine something more boring to watch than a HOA meeting. Plus you really need to talk to a lawyer to find out if you recorded what legal evidence any of that would provide you. You may record but is it admissable in court? Do you have a right to make it a public record by posting it on a social media site?

Suing your HOA is suing yourself and your neighbors. Is a recording going to make a positive change or make you look like a "Karen"?

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
You may record but is it admissable in court?

An open meeting recording made made by the board is an association record subject to copying. Even executive sessions minutes are discoverable in court. Since the board has the power of nonjudicial foreclosure, recording the board whether they like it or not is fair game. They can sell your house without going to court but members can't record them? I don't think so! If directors aren't willing to be transparent and on the record, they are in the wrong business.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 06/30/2023 3:11 AM
If there was a rule saying a member could be expelled from a meeting for being disruptive (although I don't think recording is being disruptive if there is no rule against it), just how would the board do it? You can touch someone, you can't call the police.
Of course you can call the police. Of course if there's a security guard there you can have him or her stand close to the person and quietly keep insisting the person leave.

If the person insists on sitting there with his recorder on, the Board can end the meeting and subsequently, seek, for example, a civil no trespassing order from the police. Where I am, if the person returns to future meetings with his recorder, then the situation escalates and the police can remove the person.

You may not feel inhibited by people recording your remarks (potentially posting your voice to youtube). But others might very well. I think they are being reasonable.

If the the person doing the recording does not like any of the above, then he can go to court and seek injunctive relief. That's just reality.

Knowing the state here could help. IIRC some states owners are allowed to record meetings, regardless of how the board feels about it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Ever consider some people do not want recorded that may even be sitting in the audience? Do you have permission from everyone in the room to be recorded? There are people in professions that being recorded can effect their real jobs. That is whether or not their behavior deserves scrutiny.

I am against recording a meeting unless it is arranged by the board itself. It should be focused on them only. If this is how they want to take their notes for record keeping. Otherwise it is your narrative you are trying to record it is not the reality of what things are.

Former HOA President
TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284
Posted:
If it happened in California, the police would not enforce an HOA rule. The only way they would get involved is if the member committed a crime. And it seems if there is no rule against recording, permission is not needed from everyone at the meeting as it is considered a public forum. I think you are right, the association could enforce its own rule by getting an injunction. Of course a rule has to be consistent with the declaration and members can overturn rules. Obviously, I am pro-recording. Really, there should be no expectation of privacy at an open board or member meeting. But I would understand a restriction on publishing such a recording to the public in general. If someone goes to the trouble of recording, they likely have a personal interest as a member - not an interest to publish to the world who wouldn't care.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TerriS6 on 06/30/2023 7:44 AM
If it happened in California, the police would not enforce an HOA rule.
-- I agree the police do not have the authority to enforce HOA covenants, HOA bylaws or HOA rules. From my HOA experience and reports of others here, the typical cop is well-versed on the point.

-- In California the D-S site says civil trespass is enforced through litigation. However where I am, the police will come and complete a certain form to get the ball rolling for a civil no trespass order.

-- I was thinking about how I would vote, as a director, if this situation presented itself. Two possibilities come to mind. They would result in my voting in two different ways:

1.
The Board is rogue and violating, for one, bylaws in an obvious and hurtful way. The board is also using its power, and maybe even the HOA attorney, to harass owners. I would vote to allow recording and to inform all owners that recording was possible at any meeting. As is said: Sunshine sanitizes. People knowing they are being recorded could result in restoring some civility. I would try to support SamS10. I am sure it would be an unpleasant exchange between me and the rest of the directors, no doubt putting a target more firmly on my own back. I have been there.

2.
The Board is not rogue and works hard to comply with the bylaws et cetera. Directors are often harassed, but the board and other agents of the HOA never harass anyone. They are professionals and know to ignore "noise." I would vote for a rule prohibiting recording, because a number of owners and directors said, unsurprisingly, they would feel "chilled" from speaking if they were being recorded. Also even with a "no post to social media" rule, one never knows who is going to hear a recording later on. MelissaP1's reasoning is as good as any I have seen.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
A recording provides no context just the narrative the passive aggressor wants.

Example: I see posts on social media all the time someone presenting a "story" of how abusive and horrible they are treated by example a landlord. They say their landlord is kicking them out due to X reason they assign it to be. The reality is their landlord is kicking them out for non payment of rent or violation of rules. So now they want to record their conversation with their landlord to prove how mean and nasty they are. Well what if the landlord replies pay your rent or correct your violations? Well that just feeds fuel to the fire.

The practice is called "gaslighting". There is no way to put out the flames except to not buy matches. Which is not engaging or reacting. The second these people get a reaction it is flame on ...

So I do not choose to participate in your drama and be recorded in it. That is my right and anyone else's.

Former HOA President
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I for one would not vote for a BOD Member that was against audio/video recording. I am on my BOD and I would welcome it.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am not against recording. I think they should be. Just the camera needs set up for focus on the board itself. Thee board has access and control of the recordings. This would help in several legal areas as the accuser and accused have a right to the recording in discovery portion of a case.

I am against the random recording of members in attendance who have their own unknown narrative.

Former HOA President
JackS20 (North Carolina)
Posts: 269
Posted:
we record all meetings that are done via Zoom. If anyone doesnt' like that, they are free to not participate.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I like Melissa and Jack's approaches. After the recording is made, post it on the community website (you can limit access to association members), and depending on storage space requirements, you might be able to delete it, similar to store security camera footage (the amount of time that's kept may vary). I would say six months - you should already have written minutes for the meetings that are the official documents of the association anyway.

Keep in mind, state law concerning recording of HOA meetings continues to evolve, especially since so many went to Zoom or conference calls during the pandemic, so even thought your state may be a one part recording state, that's not necessarily the end, and laws can always be amended. This is why I often say HOAs should review their documents every 5-7 years with the association attorney to see what needs to be added, dropped, or tweaked. These aren't the 10 commandments, and periodic checks can ensure you have documents that will help promote effective management of the association while reflecting major changes in the community's makeup and priorities.

Here's a link to a policy concerning recordings of public meetings in Washington state - note this applies to meetings of PUBLIC agencies, not HOAs. However an HOA board could review something like this and have the attorney check what's going on in their state and use it to develop a policy (the documents may allow them to establish additional policies and protocols that don't conflict with local, state or federal law, or the documents). Those can also be amended as necessary.

https://www.cwu.edu/business-services/sites/cts.cwu.edu.business-services/files/documents/how-long-do-meeting-recordings-need-to-be-kept-by-state-agencies.pdf

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
The condo association where I am an owner records every meeting but does not use zoom. They post the recordings on the members only area of the website for three days after the meeting. Then it is taken down. This system works great. They even make people asking questions go up to a podium so they can be seen by the camera.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 06/30/2023 10:33 AM
The condo association where I am an owner records every meeting but does not use zoom. They post the recordings on the members only area of the website for three days after the meeting. Then it is taken down. This system works great. They even make people asking questions go up to a podium so they can be seen by the camera.

I like that.

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