Denial of records request

Started by TerriS6 • 23 replies • 503 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

The board today denied in writing my request for records that were shown to all members at the May 6 meeting. They were all legal invoices to date in 2023 presented by one director and discussed by 4 directors. The president told one member looking at them wherever you see Terri vs the HOA that is coming out of your balance. The board lied in their email to me saying it wasnt invoices it was the directors notes. The same director told members she got copies of the invoices from so and so and anyone can ask for copies. The lawyer is taking our association for a ride. I believe he is purposely giving bad advice to keep a conflict alive.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

so what is the next step. sue in court? more lawyer fees? can't believe boards withhold records, they should all be voted out and replaced asap.

maybe send certified letter and ask for mediation?

vis ta vie

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 06/03/2023 4:07 AM
so what is the next step. sue in court? more lawyer fees? can't believe boards withhold records, they should all be voted out and replaced asap.

maybe send certified letter and ask for mediation?

I have asked a neighbor to talk to any neighbors who are angry over lawsuits to persuade the board to turn them over. And I plan to talk to another neighbor or two today. I think mediation would just generate more legal fees. It seems this board can't do anything without their lawyer's advice. We don't have the need or the assets to keep a law firm on retainer. It's absurd.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 06/03/2023 5:34 AM
It seems this board can't do anything without their lawyer's advice. We don't have the need or the assets to keep a law firm on retainer. It's absurd.

In my opinion this board does need an attorney on retainer. They are volunteers. It seems clear they do not know what they are doing. An attorney is the main way many boards get educated. The best HOA attorneys serve as teachers as much as lawyers.

The D-S site has specific steps for records requests. Have you checked it?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

If our board received GOOD legal advice, its invoices would be minimal. The problem is they take everything personally and just want to fight. And yes I have followed all the rules to ask for records or to copy them...and have given them more than twice the time allowed to produce them.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

The board likes its rogue attorney. Until owners are bothered enough to replace the board, I think you have little recourse on this point.

I believe you are expert in bringing certain HOA disputes to California small claims court. Records requests fall into this category (of disputes California small claims courts handle). What's keeping you from sending a letter of demand, warning the Board about the penalty here, and then as needed proceeding to court again?

Denial-of-records penalty discussion at https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/E/Enforcement-Rights

DeanJ
Posts: 1,786

Posted:

This is a bit of a incomplete story, but any HOA board that doesn’t have an attorney on retainer is incompetent.

What are the lawsuits over? Usually the lawsuits are associated with damages caused by the developer, o against dead beats who won’t maintain their property or pay their assessments,

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Thank you, ElleN. I have sent two demand letters for the records. It has been 20 business days since the first one. I included the code reference describing enforcement. At this point, I am still trying to involve other neighbors to avoid the courtroom. As you know, only 10 days is necessary. Their response of denial came on the 20th day. On reflection, the director who showed the invoices at the meeting should not have been given them because she wanted them for a wrong purpose: to harm a member - me!

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Lawsuits were over 4 illegal assessment increases, illegal election, secret board meetings, recording invalid assessment liens.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/H/HOA-Records-Subject-to-Inspection

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/R/Request-for-Information

What a nightmare we are both living. Why do people behave this way (happily, repeatedly violating CC&Rs and statutes and not caring when informed they are)? Any ideas, anyone?

MiaR1 (Illinois)
Posts: 46

Posted:

I don’t know if California has Department of Business and Consumer Affairs. If it does, it might help to contact that department and ask which department within that department handles financial records complaint regarding COA/HOA and if one exists, to file a complaint for records with that department since your written request for records already denied. It may take some time to get you the records but at least you’d get access to it. If no such department exists, Attorney General Office. Or whichever agency regulates the management company, to file a complaint with them against the PM/company if you’re being managed by one.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Terri
I am in a similar situation regarding one of my records requests. For some reason they have gone silent... I sent the request 3 times, one demand letter and then last week I asked for IDR to resolve the problem, and have not heard a thing back. I have no experience with small claims court, but I downloaded the form to take a look. I think I am going to fill it out and send it to the PMC to indicate this is my next step, but I really don't want to go to court because we all end up paying for it.

Maybe ask for IDR?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Thanks, Liz. I read your links which I had read previously. Normally, legal invoices would be privileged but the board expressly waived the privilege at the May 6 meeting by 4 directors showing them to members and discussing their contents in detail. That fulfills Evidence Code 912 for express waiver. They were blinded by their hate for me, their arrogance, and their complete lack of respect for the law. Even after they blew 4 years of potential assessment increases, the treasurer wrote to me just this week that several members have told her they don't mind paying the higher amount that was invoiced. Totally clueless!

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

You can try. You could also ask at open forum during the next board meeting when other members will be listening. And you can offer to go look at the records and copy them yourself (one less excuse for them to use.)

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Thank you. We have no management company. The courts enforce HOA law and the AG enforces corporation law but I've never heard of them actually getting involved - it would probably take a massive embezzlement or something similar.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 06/03/2023 3:10 PM
Normally, legal invoices would be privileged

Not so. Normally legal invoices are not privileged and owners/shareholders have a right to view them. There is case law on the point.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Well Evidence Code 912 doesn't consider whether or not the documents in question were originally privileged or unprivileged. That's the good news. As long as there was intentional, uncoerced substantial disclosure by the holder of privilege. (In detail) then any privilege has been waived.

JeanneH3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 158

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 06/03/2023 5:34 AM

It seems this board can't do anything without their lawyer's advice.

Our board paid the HOA attorney very recently to parse this NC law: NCGS § 47C-3-103. (g) The association shall publish the names and addresses of all officers and board
members of the association within 30 days of the election.

The absurdity is real.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Terri, have you ever tried this: https://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/homeowner_assn

Specifically one of the last two (Corp. Code, Section 8333 or 8334).

It is incredibly toothless, but, who knows, may work. Or add fodder for your next foray to court?!

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Thanks, Liz. Davis-Stirling supercedes these statutes. AG's office covers corporations code violations (not D/S) but since CC is subject to D/S it doesn't really come up.

DawnT1 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

I too have been denied records. In this case it is regarding hard surface flooring. The HOA "Board" claims to have done an extensive study on this, but this study cannot be viewed by anyone other than the Board. This study is 5 years old and there are many solutions to this

DawnT1 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Does anyone know a good Attorney in California that will take legal action against an HOA that is out of control?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DawnT1 on 06/24/2023 10:57 AM
I too have been denied records. In this case it is regarding hard surface flooring. The HOA "Board" claims to have done an extensive study on this, but this study cannot be viewed by anyone other than the Board. This study is 5 years old and there are many solutions to this

Are either you or the board aware of how controversial hard surface flooring on upper level condo units is?

Are you trying to get approval for installing hard surface flooring?

Exactly what do your covenants say on this topic?

This forum could help prepare you well for a meeting with an attorney. Or from reading here, you might find that it's not worth the fight.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

See "Our Posting Rules" at the yellow 😀. We may not give out names or companies. Sorry. Hard surface flooring is extremely common and is almost required in order to market new units in multi story buildings in Calif. nowadays. But associations have very strict rules about products and especially installation and underlayment. Your CC&Rs probably has an Article, Architectural Review. Usually CA HOAs have Arch Guidelines too with specific details about what is required to get ARC approval to install such flooring.

Assuming you're in a condo building, perhaps it's very old so your CC&Rs or ARC Guidelines documents forbid hard surface flooring? If so, sadly, they forbade it when you bought your unit? I think we need more details, and it's truly best if you start a new thread with hard-surface flooring in your subject line

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

✓ Ask follow-up questions
✓ Share your experience
✓ Get expert advice
✓ Access 350,000 discussions

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here