A service of:
Community123.com
Professional websites for HOAs & condos, since 2004
🎁 1st year FREE for HOATalk members! →
Return to Topics List

Standing Committees must they be part of covenants and by-laws or can they be made in policy without part of governing documents

Started by AnnetteB325 replies • 479 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

AnnetteB3 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
Out by-laws have three standing committees ARC,DRC, and Compliance-Enforcement. However we have committees that are Entertainment, Library, and Decorating. The issue was brought up at a meeting that none of these should be called Standing Committees since they are not in our by-laws. However there were those who stated they fall under the heading of a Standing Committee since they were formed to manage certain continuing responsibilities and procedures of the Association.
So we need to know if we can have what is considered a Standing Committee in our Policy which is not included in our governing documents or in order for a Committee to be considered a Standing Committee they must be voted into our governing documents by a majority of the membership.
We would like to put this to rest in order to know in the future what we can or cannot do in forming future Committees.
We are in Florida and are an HOA
Thank you
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Your Bylaws make specific reference to three committees (ARC, DRC and Compliance Enforcement). The bylaws are silent about an entertainment committee, library committee and decorating committee. In my opinion the legal maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius applies. This phrase means "when one or more things of a class are expressly mentioned, others of the same class are excluded." You can google on the latin phrase and see other ways to express this. This means the other three committees (entertainment, library and decorating) have no authority under the governing documents; should not be receiving any money from the HOA; and should not be reporting to the board.

If volunteers want to put together a party for the entire community, they do so within the usual rules of the HOA. E.g. suppose this HOA has a clubhouse. These volunteers may reserve the clubhouse and throw a party to the extent the rules allow anyone to reserve the clubhouse.

On the other hand, boards are known for creating social committees and the like, often with no authority in the governing documents. I oppose such committees, due to what the bylaws and covenants typically say. This topic comes up here often. Law firms on the net seem to lean against such committees (lacking authority in the governing documents) but are not unanimous. If you want citations to some of these law firm sites, post back.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
From Florida, Ohio and California:

https://www.naplesnews.com/story/money/real-estate/2016/11/19/social-event-expenses-proper-expense/92823844/

https://ohiocondolaw.com/2023/03/31/dont-gamble-with-your-communitys-well-being-by-nicholas-j-meinert-esq/ ("... [I]t is important to remember that the association cannot use its funds to conduct the game unless its governing documents specifically authorize spending on social functions.

https://www.davis-stirling.com/Newsletters/2023-Newsletters/Misuse-of-Funds-and-Embezzlement

See also: https://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/349739/view/topic/Default.aspx
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/27/2023 8:35 AM
Your Bylaws make specific reference to three committees (ARC, DRC and Compliance Enforcement). The bylaws are silent about an entertainment committee, library committee and decorating committee. In my opinion the legal maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius applies. This phrase means "when one or more things of a class are expressly mentioned, others of the same class are excluded." You can google on the latin phrase and see other ways to express this. This means the other three committees (entertainment, library and decorating) have no authority under the governing documents; should not be receiving any money from the HOA; and should not be reporting to the board.

If volunteers want to put together a party for the entire community, they do so within the usual rules of the HOA. E.g. suppose this HOA has a clubhouse. These volunteers may reserve the clubhouse and throw a party to the extent the rules allow anyone to reserve the clubhouse.

On the other hand, boards are known for creating social committees and the like, often with no authority in the governing documents. I oppose such committees, due to what the bylaws and covenants typically say. This topic comes up here often. Law firms on the net seem to lean against such committees (lacking authority in the governing documents) but are not unanimous. If you want citations to some of these law firm sites, post back.

What a load of crap
AnnetteB3 (Florida)
Posts: 6
Posted:
The committees mentioned do not have any monies tied to the HOA, however the Entertainment Committee has been running standing social events for years. The decorating committee is in charge of keeping all the decorations for events in good order and taken done and putting up. We have a large Library of which that Committee keeps it up to date and in good order. So if not Standing Committees what are they?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Your bylaws may state whether or not the board can create additional committees beyond the ones already named. (My bylaws do allow such a thing.)

If yours don't, and state law doesn't address it, then I agree that these additional committees are probably an issue. A policy needs to have some foundation in your governing documents - it can't be used to do an end run around the governing documents or to grant the board additional powers beyond what are already spelled out. If these committees are important, then consider amending your bylaws - but keep in mind that you don't want to tie the hands of future boards who may or may not see the need for them.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnetteB3 on 05/27/2023 9:04 AM
The committees mentioned do not have any monies tied to the HOA, however the Entertainment Committee has been running standing social events for years. The decorating committee is in charge of keeping all the decorations for events in good order and taken done and putting up. We have a large Library of which that Committee keeps it up to date and in good order. So if not Standing Committees what are they?
Volunteers helping out.

If your board just does not give a darn about the law; feels the committees add to the HOA; and needs a name, call them "ad hoc committees." Robert's Rules speaks to ad hoc committees. However the Bylaws trump Robert's Rules, as I describe above. So per your Bylaws, "ad hoc committees" are not allowed.

I am betting your decorating committees put up Christmas and Easter decorations, correct? This is an invitation to a Fair Housing Act complaint. And yes, I know my comment will go over like a lead balloon in certain parts of the country.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnetteB3 on 05/27/2023 9:04 AM
... snip... So if not Standing Committees what are they?


You may be thinking of Ad Hoc committees. They're usually used to meet a particular need at a particular time, and are formed and disbanded as needed. A nominating committee is an example. But that may not describe what you have. It sounds like your additional committees are Optional (which isn't an official designation as far as I know). They're there all the time, similar to the Standing Committees, but they're not required by your bylaws (unlike your Standing Committees).

I hate to recommend legal advice for something that seems like a low-stakes issue, but I think a lot of associations assume they can spend money on stuff like this and their governing documents may not actually allow for it. (We periodically have l-o-n-g discussions around here about using assessment dollars for social events.) If your association's attorney won't charge you an arm and a leg for an opinion, it may be worth getting it - if for no other reason than to silence critics who have the wrong end of the stick.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I think long-time posters need to understand the meaning and differences between types of committees, one is mandatory (ARC), standing (finance) ad-hoc (one-time bylaw rewrite)
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
If the bylaws don’t prohibit committees, the board is free to create whatever committees they want. They are an extension of the board and have no authority to make decisions without board approval.

I would be surprised if your bylaws truly are silent on the issue, but even if they are a committee is nothing more than a mechanism forthe board to fulfill their duties. Association ps have a millions difficult issues - agonizing over stuff like this is silly.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/27/2023 9:19 AM
Posted By AnnetteB3 on 05/27/2023 9:04 AM
... snip... So if not Standing Committees what are they?


You may be thinking of Ad Hoc committees. They're usually used to meet a particular need at a particular time, and are formed and disbanded as needed. A nominating committee is an example. But that may not describe what you have. It sounds like your additional committees are Optional (which isn't an official designation as far as I know). They're there all the time, similar to the Standing Committees, but they're not required by your bylaws (unlike your Standing Committees).

I hate to recommend legal advice for something that seems like a low-stakes issue, but I think a lot of associations assume they can spend money on stuff like this and their governing documents may not actually allow for it. (We periodically have l-o-n-g discussions around here about using assessment dollars for social events.) If your association's attorney won't charge you an arm and a leg for an opinion, it may be worth getting it - if for no other reason than to silence critics who have the wrong end of the stick.

Spending money is a separate issue from creating a committee. We have a landscape committee that oversees our landscaping vendor’s work, makes recommendations to the board, etc. They have no budget, they just assist the board.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/27/2023 9:12 AM
Posted By AnnetteB3 on 05/27/2023 9:04 AM
The committees mentioned do not have any monies tied to the HOA, however the Entertainment Committee has been running standing social events for years. The decorating committee is in charge of keeping all the decorations for events in good order and taken done and putting up. We have a large Library of which that Committee keeps it up to date and in good order. So if not Standing Committees what are they?
Volunteers helping out.

If your board just does not give a darn about the law; feels the committees add to the HOA; and needs a name, call them "ad hoc committees." Robert's Rules speaks to ad hoc committees. However the Bylaws trump Robert's Rules, as I describe above. So per your Bylaws, "ad hoc committees" are not allowed.

I am betting your decorating committees put up Christmas and Easter decorations, correct? This is an invitation to a Fair Housing Act complaint. And yes, I know my comment will go over like a lead balloon in certain parts of the country.

Actually my thoughts ended up here as well. Since these groups are involved in use of the common elements, then need work under the supervision of the board (our committees must have at least one board member on the committee). Not just because of potential Fair Housing issues, but also for liability and other reasons. Homeowners rarely think about these things - these things should be in the back of the board's minds all the time. Will something bad necessarily happen? Of course not. But if something bad does happen, it has the potential to be expensive, so the board would be remiss if they did not anticipate the possibility and proactively address it.

Homeowners often think that the board is a bunch of party poopers who hate for anyone to have fun, not realizing that the board's job is to make sure the fun doesn't cause trouble. And some of the issues are tough. Not too long ago we had a discussion about what happens if some homeowners wanted to use the clubhouse to hold book club discussions devoted to the writings of an author whose beliefs are, let's say, offensive to a chunk of the population. What's the association's potential liability here? This is way above the pay grade of volunteers, and probably of the board as well. Professional advice is needed.

HOA money isn't the only thing a board needs to be concerned about, since any use of HOA facilities is assumed to be approved by the association (even if the board isn't paying any attention).
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Our Bylaws don't say much about committees, but do authorize the Board to create any they wish to benefit the association. More important and for annex to check, is FL corporations codes. If like CA, there'll be a lot about committees. It seems Annette's hung up on the word "standing committees, which I guess are those specified in th Bylaws. Our old bylaws specified the ARC and a Nomination committee. We dumped the latter for our restated Bylaws.

I don't know what we call the committees in my HOA that are NOT the only standing committee, the ARC. We just call them "committees!" They, with one exception, are most certainly not hoc committees, which always are for a single purpose, as pointed out, and generally of short duration. We do have one ad hoc committee at the moment, whose work is almost done.

As you can see ElleN is opposed to all sorts of committees, but since CA gives all non-profits the authority to appoint committees, I think many states also might and that many Bylaws do, too. I do see that Annette isn't talking about the board given any committees a"budget" or authorization to spend HOA funds, but, again, that is debatable and some legal experts disagree with ElleN' opinion.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/27/2023 9:44 AM
If the bylaws don’t prohibit committees, the board is free to create whatever committees they want. They are an extension of the board and have no authority to make decisions without board approval.

I would be surprised if your bylaws truly are silent on the issue, but even if they are a committee is nothing more than a mechanism forthe board to fulfill their duties. Association ps have a millions difficult issues - agonizing over stuff like this is silly.

I agree, especially the this is silly stuff.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
A Standing Committee is a permanent committee such as those defined in ones docs. If not called for in one's docs, it is not a Standing Committee.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/27/2023 10:56 AM
A Standing Committee is a permanent committee such as those defined in ones docs. If not called for in one's docs, it is not a Standing Committee.

Standing Committee
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/S/Standing-Committees

Mandatory Committee
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/M/Mandatory-Committees
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AnnetteB3 on 05/27/2023 8:05 AM
So we need to know if we can have what is considered a Standing Committee in our Policy which is not included in our governing documents
On further study, if the board is willing to have at least one director serve on the entertainment, library and entertainment committees, then Florida statutes say these committees are legitimate. See 617.0825 "Board committees and advisory committees."
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/27/2023 3:06 PM
Posted By AnnetteB3 on 05/27/2023 8:05 AM
So we need to know if we can have what is considered a Standing Committee in our Policy which is not included in our governing documents
On further study, if the board is willing to have at least one director serve on the entertainment, library and entertainment committees, then Florida statutes say these committees are legitimate. See 617.0825 "Board committees and advisory committees."


I believe that statute states that an executive committee must consist of directors, up other committees need not have any directors.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/28/2023 8:02 AM

I believe [FS 617.0825] states that an executive committee must consist of directors, up other committees need not have any directors.
Thank you for checking my work. So far I stand by my position, with one correction, because of the following:

FS 617.0825
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a board committee may be composed of less than a majority of directors or entirely of non-directors if:
(a) The committee is created by the board of directors or is otherwise authorized by the articles of incorporation or the bylaws; and
(b) The committee relates to the election, nomination, qualification, or credentials of directors or is involved in the process of electing directors.
(Emphasis added by ElleN)

The "and" above says to me that the committee must have at least one director //unless// it's a nominating-type committee.

Also part (1) says a majority of the members of a non-nominating type committee have to be directors:

FS 617.0825
(1) Unless the articles of incorporation or the bylaws otherwise provide, the board of directors, by resolution adopted by a majority of the full board of directors, may create an executive committee and one or more other committees of the board and appoint directors or such other persons as the board of directors designates to serve on such committee or committees. The majority of the persons on each committee must be directors.

What do you think?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/28/2023 8:15 AM
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/28/2023 8:02 AM

I believe [FS 617.0825] states that an executive committee must consist of directors, up other committees need not have any directors.
Thank you for checking my work. So far I stand by my position, with one correction, because of the following:

FS 617.0825
(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), a board committee may be composed of less than a majority of directors or entirely of non-directors if:
(a) The committee is created by the board of directors or is otherwise authorized by the articles of incorporation or the bylaws; and
(b) The committee relates to the election, nomination, qualification, or credentials of directors or is involved in the process of electing directors.
(Emphasis added by ElleN)

The "and" above says to me that the committee must have at least one director //unless// it's a nominating-type committee.

Also part (1) says a majority of the members of a non-nominating type committee have to be directors:

FS 617.0825
(1) Unless the articles of incorporation or the bylaws otherwise provide, the board of directors, by resolution adopted by a majority of the full board of directors, may create an executive committee and one or more other committees of the board and appoint directors or such other persons as the board of directors designates to serve on such committee or committees. The majority of the persons on each committee must be directors.

What do you think?



That is the part that discusses Executive Committees. I'm looking further down with regards to advisory committees. I believe the OP's committees would qualify as "advisory" because they simply perform tasks that the board requests of them - they don't make decisions, bind the corporation to actions, etc.

(8) A corporation may create or authorize the creation of one or more advisory committees with any number of persons on the committee being non-directors. An advisory committee:
(a) Is not a committee of the board of directors; and
(b) May not act on behalf of or exercise any of the powers or authority of the board of directors or bind the corporation to any action, but may make recommendations to the board of directors, to the officers, or to the members.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 05/28/2023 8:29 AM

That is the part that discusses Executive Committees [and "other committees of the board"]. I'm looking further down with regards to advisory committees. I believe the OP's committees would qualify as "advisory" because they simply perform tasks that the board requests of them - they don't make decisions, bind the corporation to actions, etc.

(8) A corporation may create or authorize the creation of one or more advisory committees with any number of persons on the committee being non-directors. An advisory committee:
(a) Is not a committee of the board of directors; and
(b) May not act on behalf of or exercise any of the powers or authority of the board of directors or bind the corporation to any action, but may make recommendations to the board of directors, to the officers, or to the members.
Okay. I buy that the OP's entertainment, library and decorating committees may lawfully make recommendations to the board; the board may act on these recommendations; and then per board direction volunteers may carry out these recommendations. The HOA's funds for these activities are to be used only to the extent the governing documents allow.

Call them "Standing Committees," "Advisory Committees," "FS 617.0825 (8) Committees" or "Ad Hoc Committees." Like others said, it does not matter. The entertainment, library and decorating committees are legit to the extent FS 617.0825 (8) says they are legit.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'd checked the statute too: In Fla., the board may form any committees it wishes. With ElleN, Annette, use the term "advisory committees" to settle the dispute and so future boards don't get hung up on this. Your Board may even want to approve a simple resolution saying that Committees authorized by the board other than the required DRC, ARC, & Compliance Committees shall be termed "advisory committees" or some such wording.

Those in other states may also find their Bylaws don't say much about committees and you might want to take a look your states non-profit corporation codes. As with both CA & FL's codes, make sure you note the difference between a committee of only board directors and a committee that can be comprised of members. The wording can be a little confusing.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
In Florida the board may form any advisory committee it wishes. Difference. E.g. This library committee cannot say enforce rules for use of the library. By contrast the ARC committee typically does have authority to enforce rules.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I don't know about FL, but in CA, only the board may "enforce" rules. If an ARC member notices a violation of our ARC requirements, they would notify the PM , who'd send the usual "courtesy" letter asking the alleged violator to cure the issues. If not complying, the PM would call the alleged ARC violator to a hearing of the Board, which would decide whether or not and in what way to enforce our documents.

Our ARC does have the power to turn down ARC apps, or request further info, etc. But if it denies an application, the applies can seek approval from the Board.

I think I remember in FL that the Compliance-Enforement Committee is required by state statutes. Even if I remember that part correctly, I don't know if it has the power to enforce the governing docs, or if such enforcement goes to the Board for a decision.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/28/2023 5:33 PM
If an ARC member notices a violation of our ARC requirements, they would notify the PM , who'd send the usual "courtesy" letter asking the alleged violator to cure the issues.
Which is a power the ARC has that goes beyond "advisory."
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Drat, my lack of clarity again! Any resident may notify the PM of an alleged ARC violation and, after confirming what the resident or ARC member observed, the PM would send a violation letter, etc. Neither the ARC member nor any resident have the power to "enforce."

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here