Does Davis-Sterling or Corp. Code say owners have to provide proof?

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

My CC&Rs state that proof of ownership must be supplied before an owner can be a member of the HOA (and you must be an HOA member to be a Board member). It was just accidentally discovered that one of the Board members was not an owner. So everybody was asked to provide proof. No one else did.

Is there anything in Davis-Sterling or the Corp. Code that addresses this requirement to provide proof? If not, I don’t see how I can enforce this.

Interestingly, it was discovered that this person was not an owner because someone else on the Board was emailing Board documents to another non-owner!

Welcome to the mad house.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

LizD3, title to real estate is public record at your county clerk's. In addition chances are good that who pays the property taxes on each of the four units in your HOA/condo association is public record available online. Your association has a mere four units. Look up each unit. Print out the documentation of who owns each unit. This is your proof.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 6:27 PM
My CC&Rs state that proof of ownership must be supplied before an owner can be a member of the HOA (and you must be an HOA member to be a Board member). It was just accidentally discovered that one of the Board members was not an owner. So everybody was asked to provide proof. No one else did.

Is there anything in Davis-Sterling or the Corp. Code that addresses this requirement to provide proof? If not, I don’t see how I can enforce this.

Interestingly, it was discovered that this person was not an owner because someone else on the Board was emailing Board documents to another non-owner!

Welcome to the mad house.

Your county probably has a way to search parcels by address to see who is on the deed. So anybody can confirm whether or not one of your board members is a homeowner.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I am dealing with the exact same issue now with a former client. Two of the new Board members are co-owners and have not been owners for the past year, clearly in violation of their Election Rules. Their new property manager was informed during the transition about the situation and refused to do anything. A letter was email was sent to their attorney, Adams-Stirling for advice. I sent the Board a copy of the Grant Deed which was recorded on August 2, 2022. The two people were appointed to the board on February 26th.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Sorry – maybe I wasn’t clear. The issue is that they are not providing the proof they are required to provide as per our CC&Rs.

Referring to our CC&Rs will not compel them to provide their own proof. So my question is does Davis-Sterling or the Corp. Code say they have to provide proof (if they do, I can use that to compel them to provide their own proof)?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 7:47 PM
The issue is that they are not providing the proof they are required to provide as per our CC&Rs.

Referring to our CC&Rs will not compel them to provide their own proof.

The CC&Rs are contractual terms enforceable first (in California) through IDR and down the road as needed, via court.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You then have to provide proof too.

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 05/22/2023 8:15 PM

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 7:47 PM
The issue is that they are not providing the proof they are required to provide as per our CC&Rs.

Referring to our CC&Rs will not compel them to provide their own proof.

The CC&Rs are contractual terms enforceable first (in California) through IDR and down the road as needed, via court.

Stop with the nonsense!

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 7:47 PM
Sorry – maybe I wasn’t clear. The issue is that they are not providing the proof they are required to provide as per our CC&Rs.

Referring to our CC&Rs will not compel them to provide their own proof. So my question is does Davis-Sterling or the Corp. Code say they have to provide proof (if they do, I can use that to compel them to provide their own proof)?

As an association management company, whenever there is a new transaction, I will require a Grant Deed, if one is not provided, I can obtain it through a title company I work with. It's the Association's responsibility to have this information as an account is set up based on the owners listed on a grant deed in California.

Can you provide the specific language of the CCRs that require owners to provide proof? Generally, providing proof of ownership to run for the board would be in either your Bylaws or Election Rules. https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/V/Verifying-Qualifications

If you want proof I can provide a grant deed for you. Let me know and I will provide an email address.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 6:27 PM
My CC&Rs state that proof of ownership must be supplied before an owner can be a member of the HOA (and you must be an HOA member to be a Board member). It was just accidentally discovered that one of the Board members was not an owner. So everybody was asked to provide proof. No one else did.

Is there anything in Davis-Sterling or the Corp. Code that addresses this requirement to provide proof? If not, I don’t see how I can enforce this.

Interestingly, it was discovered that this person was not an owner because someone else on the Board was emailing Board documents to another non-owner!

Welcome to the mad house.

BTW..it's Davis-Stirling and Larry Stirling is credited as the author and Gray Davis just wanted his name at the front while doing absolutely nothing.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

We had an issue where my HOA refused to maintain a certain area because they claimed a utility owned that lot. It was pretty easy to prove that the HOA owned it just by going to our 'County Assessor/County Clerk/Recorder' website and searching on the address. Unless the property was held in a Trust, it clearly shows the owner's name.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesB37 on 05/22/2023 8:42 PM
We had an issue where my HOA refused to maintain a certain area because they claimed a utility owned that lot. It was pretty easy to prove that the HOA owned it just by going to our 'County Assessor/County Clerk/Recorder' website and searching on the address. Unless the property was held in a Trust, it clearly shows the owner's name.

The original grant deed would always be in the owner's name, not a trust. The trust comes after the first recording.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 7:47 PM
Sorry – maybe I wasn’t clear. The issue is that they are not providing the proof they are required to provide as per our CC&Rs.

Referring to our CC&Rs will not compel them to provide their own proof. So my question is does Davis-Sterling or the Corp. Code say they have to provide proof (if they do, I can use that to compel them to provide their own proof)?

So you are less concerned about the purpose of the rule, and more concerned about the technical adherence to the rule?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Election rules permit an association to allow only one co-owner of a lot to be on the board.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I have found LizD caught up in the "legaleze" of every rule than the whole picture. Plus she is also responsible for providing proof as the owner on the DEED as well. How will she provide it? That then is how the others will. Which is typically not a well held secret information. Usually can just call the Tax accessor's office with the lot # to get.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Owners are automatically members when they buy into the association.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

They are owners by the name on the deed. The person on the Deed is considered the "owner". There can only be one owner/member per home/property.

Former HOA President

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Melissa, want some fun reading about how many owners can be? Laguna Royale v. Darger
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/ca-court-of-appeal/1835118.html

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

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Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/23/2023 4:47 AM
They are owners by the name on the deed. The person on the Deed is considered the "owner". There can only be one owner/member per home/property.

???

My wife and I are both on our deed, which is pretty common. Her family has a lake house with about ten people's names on the deed; each with undivided interest.

Our lot only has one vote, but both my wife and I are homeowners in the HOA, and so we are both members of the Association.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Max – Stirling, of course! I knew that. Thanks for your generous offer. My point, however is not to do their work for them but to compel them to do what they are supposed to do.

FYI, my CC&Rs specifically state you cannot be an HOA member until you provide proof of ownership.

David – Yes. I’m trying to get them to do what they are obligated to do, for once.

Terri – My CC&Rs says they have to provide proof of ownership to be a member. Are you saying this condition in our CC&Rs is not legal? We had a non-owner on our Board for well over a year until, surprise, we found out he wasn’t an owner. So enforcing the CC&Rs requirement for proof seems prudent.

Melissa – A single property with multiple owners is not uncommon (both spouses, for example, could be co-owners, if that’s how they purchase the property). Multiple owners then share 1 vote.

So, to clarify my question, is there anything in Davis-Stirling or Corp. Code that says owners have to provide proof?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 8:40 AM

Terri – My CC&Rs says they have to provide proof of ownership to be a member. Are you saying this condition in our CC&Rs is not legal? We had a non-owner on our Board for well over a year until, surprise, we found out he wasn’t an owner. So enforcing the CC&Rs requirement for proof seems prudent.

I would say that, yes, at the very least your CC&Rs are unenforceable on that matter. When somebody buys their home and their name goes on the deed, by definition they are a member of the Association. It is up to the Association to track ownership changes and maintain their rolls.

Think about it, if this were not the case anybody could simply exempt themselves from their assessments by refusing to proactively "prove" they are an owner.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Liz

A couple of questions.

1) Are you on the Board?
2) Are you self-managed or does the association have a management company?
3) If owners are required to turn this document in, who receives it and maintains the chain of ownership?

For example, let's say a management company takes over the management of a 2000-unit HOA community. Who has all 2000 grant deeds to prove the person is the owner?

If we handle a resale, what we will request at closing is a copy of the grant deed so we are billing the correct party(s). As you know, after escrow closes in California, it will take up to 10 days to record the documents.

So, in your community, if your CCRs require proof, who does the owner give the proof to? Because the CCRs state the owner is to provide proof, people do set up procedures to handle what you are asking. It is not cut and dry.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

CC&Rs says proof of ownership is required to be delivered to the Board to be eligible to be an HOA member.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

David - interesting point. But assessment go with the property, not the owner (owners come and go, but the assessment remains).

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

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Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 10:05 AM
David - interesting point. But assessment go with the property, not the owner (owners come and go, but the assessment remains).

So if the fees aren't paid, who do you sue? Do you send demand letters to the house address, and not the current owner? Do you NOT maintain a roll of lots, owners, and contact information?

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 10:02 AM
CC&Rs says proof of ownership is required to be delivered to the Board to be eligible to be an HOA member.

Could you quote the verbiage?

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Liz, that happens at close of escrow. Read civil code starting 4525 under ownership transfer of interest. Chapter 4 of Davis-Stirling. The association has all that info when you take title. Otherwise, how would they know to whom to send assessment invoice. They always send docs to new owner(s) so they know as soon as transaction occurs. The CC&R rule just seems superfluous.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

CC&Rs: No person can exercise the rights of Association membership until satisfactory proof of ownership has been furnished to the Board

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 10:05 AM
David - interesting point. But assessment go with the property, not the owner (owners come and go, but the assessment remains).

Sorry, you are wrong about that. If that were the case, I would be sending the bill to an address with no person's name.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

Liz is right. Once a member sells his separate interest, he has no standing to sue or be sued.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

A lost cause is being waged here.

DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994

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Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 05/23/2023 10:26 AM
Liz is right. Once a member sells his separate interest, he has no standing to sue or be sued.

If Liz is right, then no homeowner can be sued until they furnish the board with proof that they own the property. So...if you don't want to have to pay fees or follow the HOA rules, all you have to do is not provide proof that you own your home.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Greatly appreciate your input, everyone, but can we swing this back to my original question: if anyone knows of anything in Davis-Stirling or Corp. Code that says owners have to provide proof of ownership before being eligible to be part of the HOA (as my CC&Rs requires) can you please let me know.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 11:00 AM
Greatly appreciate your input, everyone, but can we swing this back to my original question: if anyone knows of anything in Davis-Stirling or Corp. Code that says owners have to provide proof of ownership before being eligible to be part of the HOA (as my CC&Rs requires) can you please let me know.

The answer is no!

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 11:00 AM
Greatly appreciate your input, everyone, but can we swing this back to my original question: if anyone knows of anything in Davis-Stirling or Corp. Code that says owners have to provide proof of ownership before being eligible to be part of the HOA (as my CC&Rs requires) can you please let me know.

To clarify, your CCRs may say that trash cans can not be visible from the common area or the street. There is no law, civil code, or corporation code to validate that restriction.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Death and taxes are assured. Ownership is in ones name not the property. You pay taxes on that property because you own the deed. Hence you are the owner of that property which is in a HOA. Being an owner entitles you to be a member. Showing proof you are a member is like showing a membership card.

Verifying you are a member effects your status, voting rights, and ability to run for a board position.

Again why can you not also provide your ownership papers if everyone else does?

Former HOA President

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/23/2023 11:00 AM
Greatly appreciate your input, everyone, but can we swing this back to my original question: if anyone knows of anything in Davis-Stirling or Corp. Code that says owners have to provide proof of ownership before being eligible to be part of the HOA (as my CC&Rs requires) can you please let me know.

I do not understand your concerns.

California statutes state: "An association shall disqualify a person from a nomination as a candidate for not being a member of the association at the time of the nomination." See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5105. In my opinion this says what you want: Owners have to provide proof of ownership before being eligible to be on the board.

I guess you want some sort of detailed procedure? But because it's so easy to confirm whether someone is an owner, this seems silly to me.

If your HOA is not confirming candidates are owners, and you confirm that a director is not an owner (which is easy to do), then you have a right to try to enforce state law and your covenants as described above, via IDR and as needed, the courts.

I am baffled at why you are making such a fuss here.

LizD3 (California)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Ellen – The CA statute you quote is for elections. Which is not what I asked. But thank you for looking it up.

And I did not ask for a procedure. I only asked if anyone knew of anything in Davis-Stirling or Corp. Code about owners providing proof of ownership.

I do not see how that simple request qualifies as a fuss. Or as baffling. But, nonetheless, thanks to you – and all – for trying to help.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LizD3 on 05/22/2023 6:27 PM
My CC&Rs state that proof of ownership must be supplied before an owner can be a member of the HOA (and you must be an HOA member to be a Board member). It was just accidentally discovered that one of the Board members was not an owner. So everybody was asked to provide proof. No one else did.
...
Welcome to the mad house.

You call this a simple request.

Looking up whether a person is an owner (or not) is a simple act. Furthermore, arguably since ownership is recorded with the county clerk, each person who is an owner has provided proof.

I do not see any issue here.