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CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We just received word from our management company that nobody volunteered to fill the single open position we had up for election last week. (Note: one of the board positions had been "filled "by a tenant Officer, so there should have been open spots.)

Nonetheless, the board president, who was our single remaining director, stepped up and resigned.

We now have no board. Our management company is in charge and paying the bills. Their contract should be ending some time around October unless our incredibly foolish former board members agreed to a clause allowing auto-renewal.

Your intrepid reporter will be keeping you informed as this very interesting story plays out.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 973
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 7:01 AM
We just received word from our management company that nobody volunteered to fill the single open position we had up for election last week. (Note: one of the board positions had been "filled "by a tenant Officer, so there should have been open spots.)

Nonetheless, the board president, who was our single remaining director, stepped up and resigned.

We now have no board. Our management company is in charge and paying the bills. Their contract should be ending some time around October unless our incredibly foolish former board members agreed to a clause allowing auto-renewal.

Your intrepid reporter will be keeping you informed as this very interesting story plays out.


Ouch.

I would attempt to look at the contract - those “evergreen” clauses seem to be very popular in PMC contracts. Not a lot of runway between now and October{1}.

In your situation, would it be better or worse to have no Board *and* no PMC?

Bill

{1} I started preparing for Halloween last week. October looms.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I'm planning to request a copy of our contract.

This situation could end up working out for the best. I just got off the phone with one of our experienced former board members who said she's willing to serve if I do, and the two of us form a quorum.

Our recently departed former board members actually did some damage. In addition to not complying with our governing docs, they booted top notch vendors because the ex-president didn't get along with them. These vendors included the top management company in our area (the builder I work for uses them for the majority of their new companies) and our law firm which, in exchange for a reasonable retainer, provided free training and unlimited free 15-minute phone calls which more than justified the retainer. I follow this firm on social media, and they're going from strength to strength and have expanded into a second state.

It's always a bad sign if a board doesn't want to learn how to do their jobs better. It was sometimes a challenge what battles to pick.

The management company will try to hold a second meeting of the membership when they can arrange for meeting space. One mistake I think they've made is that they didn't give brief "elevator speech" on the realities of receivership, which means most homeowners won't be alarmed enough. But that's a job for any day.

This situation may be resolved without too much bloodshed...
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 7:01 AM
We now have no board. Our management company is in charge and paying the bills. Their contract should be ending some time around October unless our incredibly foolish former board members agreed to a clause allowing auto-renewal.
The MC has a contract, so I figure the MC has grounds to continue. But as you know, the MC is taking a risk by continuing.

Are there any non-director officers still in office?

Are you not ready at present to resume being on the board?

Any idea why the President-Director quit?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 8:17 AM
... snip ... These vendors included the top management company in our area (the builder I work for uses them for the majority of their new companies)...

communities, sheesh! My typing skills have really gone down the tubes...
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 8:17 AM
The management company will try to hold a second meeting of the membership when they can arrange for meeting space.
I am not there, but this seems like at least one sign that the MC is honest and competent.

You'll be great as a director, of course, especially if there are just two of you and the two of you tend to approach things similarly.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/06/2023 8:19 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 7:01 AM
We now have no board. Our management company is in charge and paying the bills. Their contract should be ending some time around October unless our incredibly foolish former board members agreed to a clause allowing auto-renewal.
The MC has a contract, so I figure the MC has grounds to continue. But as you know, the MC is taking a risk by continuing.

Are there any non-director officers still in office?

Are you not ready at present to resume being on the board?

Any idea why the President-Director quit?

Some of the answers are in my response to Bill.

The only officer we have is a tenant.

If I'm willing to serve, we'll have a functioning board again. But this is definitely "if". Virtual/hybrid meetings are a must - I'm not willing to get covid, and I'm keeping my eyes on the avian influenza that wrecked our egg supply last year*.

(* The virus has jumped into a number of mammal species, and there are some hints that it is spreading among them. If this virus becomes transmissible among humans, we're off to the races again and we're not prepared for a second pandemic this soon. The good news with this virus is that we have antiviral drugs and companies are already working on vaccines. The bad news is that it's lethal, with death rates over 50% and close to 100% in some bird species. We got off easy with covid even although it may not seem that way.)

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/06/2023 8:19 AM
.. snip ...
Any idea why the President-Director quit?

No clue, "personal reasons" were mentioned. The only hint we had was an email from the manager some days later that told homeowners that they were to direct any questions and issues to management, not to take them up with individual board members "for liability reasons". I know the person involved, and putting the bits and pieces together I have some ideas, but I don't actually know anything.

Now I'm off to work up a website...
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 8:31 AM
The only officer we have is a tenant.
Is his/her being a tenant a legal problem? Or just 'inadvisable' in your opinion?

I guess he or she stays until removed by the board?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/06/2023 8:43 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 8:31 AM
The only officer we have is a tenant.
Is his/her being a tenant a legal problem? Or just 'inadvisable' in your opinion?

I guess he or she stays until removed by the board?

Our governing docs allow for tenants to serve as officers. But...

* This particular officer position was invented by the previous board members. It's not one of the typical Secretary/Treasurer ones.

* I'd mentioned in another thread that the board appointed the tenant to this made-up position in lieu of filling an open board position even though there were qualified, reasonable homeowners willing to serve. So the appointment itself was dubious.

* Officers serve at the pleasure of the board and may be removed with or without cause. Obviously this isn't a legal opinion, but in my view the "consent to serve as officer" disappears when the board does. To me, the important thing here isn't that the appointing board members are gone, it's that the entire board is gone (the only board members actually resigned).

Putting these facts together, I assume the officer position is also vacant and there aren't any other facts that would incline me to override this opinion. Our lawyers were clear that the association has no legal relationship with a tenant. And if I were the tenant involved, I wouldn't be willing to take the risk given the potential for legal action (appointment of a receiver, for example).

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 9:30 AM

* Officers serve at the pleasure of the board and may be removed with or without cause. Obviously this isn't a legal opinion, but in my view the "consent to serve as officer" disappears when the board does. To me, the important thing here isn't that the appointing board members are gone, it's that the entire board is gone (the only board members actually resigned).

Putting these facts together, I assume the officer position is also vacant and there aren't any other facts that would incline me to override this opinion. Our lawyers were clear that the association has no legal relationship with a tenant. And if I were the tenant involved, I wouldn't be willing to take the risk given the potential for legal action (appointment of a receiver, for example).
I understand. I think you are right. No board to oversee an officer means the officer can do nothing. He or she best not do anything, including holding him- or herself out as any officer, other than resign.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 973
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 8:17 AM
I'm planning to request a copy of our contract.

This situation could end up working out for the best. I just got off the phone with one of our experienced former board members who said she's willing to serve if I do, and the two of us form a quorum.

Our recently departed former board members actually did some damage. In addition to not complying with our governing docs, they booted top notch vendors because the ex-president didn't get along with them. These vendors included the top management company in our area (the builder I work for uses them for the majority of their new companies) and our law firm which, in exchange for a reasonable retainer, provided free training and unlimited free 15-minute phone calls which more than justified the retainer. I follow this firm on social media, and they're going from strength to strength and have expanded into a second state.

It's always a bad sign if a board doesn't want to learn how to do their jobs better. It was sometimes a challenge what battles to pick.

The management company will try to hold a second meeting of the membership when they can arrange for meeting space. One mistake I think they've made is that they didn't give brief "elevator speech" on the realities of receivership, which means most homeowners won't be alarmed enough. But that's a job for any day.

This situation may be resolved without too much bloodshed...

I'm with Ællen on this; it might not have been in your plans, but I can see you turning this mess into gold.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Your plan looks really good, Cathy. I think I recall some growing concerns of yours about your Assoc. Remind me: I think you've served on HOA boards or an HOA board previously? I know you have a lot of knowledge from your positions with a developer.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/06/2023 4:32 PM
Your plan looks really good, Cathy. I think I recall some growing concerns of yours about your Assoc. Remind me: I think you've served on HOA boards or an HOA board previously? I know you have a lot of knowledge from your positions with a developer.

I served about 9-1/2 years at my first condo community and just over 5 years at my current one. Plus I still work for the developer/builder, so I can get answers to questions that others may not be able to.

Yes, I've had a number of concerns about what was going on. Nothing flagrant or illegal, just the usual low-level shenanigans and mistakes. The trouble is that there were so many of them that I had to pick my battles or risk getting a reputation as a complainer - because the board and manager would never accept that they're doing things that could come back to bite them and that I actually had their backs. They definitely did get a little defensive - not the manager so much, but the board definitely.

The latest example involved the appointment of a tenant to an invented officer position instead of filling the open board position when there were qualified homeowners willing to serve. They topped this off by announcing at the last annual meeting that one board position was up for election when there actually were two vacancies. If they had filled that board position with a homeowner who knew what they were doing, we would have had a board member in place when the president resigned, so we wouldn't be in this spot.

Unfortunately the previous board president burned bridges with vendors, and I'm concerned about what happened at the annual meeting. In the years prior to and during my board service, our annual meetings have always been cordial and we've always ended up with at least two board positions filled. This time the one person who announced their intention to run withdrew their candidacy at the meeting (citing "personal reasons") and the board president resigned (citing the poor attitudes of homeowners toward the board and each other - yipes, maybe don't say that part out loud?). My community as a whole has always been neighborly and good natured, so something has changed.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
quick now's your chance to try and dissolve the COA!

vis ta vie
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 05/07/2023 9:26 AM
quick now's your chance to try and dissolve the COA!

WAAAAYYY too much work.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Monday Morning Musings...

This may be the exception that proves the rule, but you remember how we often comment that getting homeowners involved in committees and other opportunities can promote community engagement and create a pool of future volunteer board members?

Well... as far as I can tell our departed board did just that. And it appears that this created some unrealistic expectations on the homeowners' part and they got upset when these expectations weren't met. So instead of engagement, we have simmering discontent - at least among the folks willing to show up for an annual meeting. Although that is engagement of a sort, I guess...

This is consistent with my experience with trying to use committees. Long story short, they caused problems and got nothing done.

Judging from what I saw on the outside, our former board members made two mistakes. One, they treated the association more like a social club/democracy and less like a corporation, which is where the unreasonable expectations came from. Second, they mishandled the Vocational Dissident crowd and allowed them to take over.

In contrast, when I was on the board we were more businesslike and acted like the ones who were in charge - because we were. We made it clear that we were running a business whose job it was to maintain our jointly owned assets, that this was "Job One" for us, and that we all benefited from this. Partying was not on our agenda, although if others wanted to do it we were fine with it.

So, the folks who followed the recommended path blew up the place. The "humorless" folks who didn't follow that path had a steady stream of board volunteers (although not as many as we wanted) and a mostly content membership (including the Vocational Dissidents who simmered down after consistent managing).

Don't know if we can generalize from this. I suspect the outcomes depended in part on the skills and personalities of the board in charge and that my fellow directors and I were more capable overall (we even coped with a Vocational Dissdent on the board, which was interesting - I gots skills, me).

I am concerned about stepping into a mess. If I do end up on the board again, one of my first goals is polling the membership - I want to find out if there are real issues or only manufactured ones.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
You've helped so many here, Cathy. Please ask any questions and flesh out any of your concerns and I'm sure we'll be here for you! It does seem like a wonderful opportunity to improve your association.

Are there committees now? Here's what Our Assoc. & board have learned about them:

They need board-approved clear charters.

Their members & chair must be appointed by the Board.

If a committee doesn't have a board member on it, the Board needs to assign it a "board liaison" to help keep them on track, realistic, etc. The liaison attends meetings, but does not have a vote.
BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 973
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/08/2023 6:29 AM
Monday Morning Musings...

I am concerned about stepping into a mess. If I do end up on the board again, one of my first goals is polling the membership - I want to find out if there are real issues or only manufactured ones.

FWIW, your 'concern' is a sign that you're thinking rationally.

And getting a read from the membership is a good first step.

As feisty as the membership might be, they realize that you're coming in to Clean Up Dodge, right? Perhaps that's a poor metaphor. I can't help but think they would look warmly on change. For the first month or so.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Right now we have no committees. As Ellen pointed out upthread when we were talking about the appointed officer, without a board to oversee them it's unlikely that a committee could do anything since they derive their authority from the board. At least that's how I'm reading our bylaws. If we have no board, we have no officers or committees.

I think we had two problems with committees. First, they attracted the vocational dissidents who were using their positions to do whatever they wanted and wouldn't accept board authority. The second was that we didn't have a clear idea of what we wanted to use the committee for - mostly it was just "Committees Good! Must Have Committees!". So everyone was at fault here, but mostly the board because we didn't have our acts together.

Lessons learned.

I hope that the homeowners will settle down. One issue is that the board member who resigned last year spread lies around the community, and newer residents who don't question what they are told probably believed them. So I anticipate a bit of a PR battle as well, although I think that being transparent and obviously competent goes a long way. I'm also prepared for the possibility that the liar will continue to be a problem, although they'll probably discredit themselves eventually.

I actually know a lot more than I did before, and it's largely thanks to the discussions on this website. Even if we do things differently in my state, it's good to get different perspectives and see how others think about their issues. Our lawyer once commented that associations around the perimeter of the country tend to be about ten years ahead of us in their thinking, so it's nice to know where we may be headed. (I'm watching the insurance discussions closely.)

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
If you agree to be on the board, would a Town Hall board meeting be worthwhile, with the meeting serving the purpose of giving an overview of the legal structure of condominiums? Not that it would be well-attended. But first impressions are everything. Given past mistakes, perhaps some things need to be set straight early on?

I agree about committees. They are too rarely up to speed on where they fit in and condo/HOA law in general. On the other hand, a number of people here believe, from experience, that having committees is better than not having them.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/09/2023 6:35 AM
If you agree to be on the board, would a Town Hall board meeting be worthwhile, with the meeting serving the purpose of giving an overview of the legal structure of condominiums? Not that it would be well-attended. But first impressions are everything. Given past mistakes, perhaps some things need to be set straight early on?

I agree about committees. They are too rarely up to speed on where they fit in and condo/HOA law in general. On the other hand, a number of people here believe, from experience, that having committees is better than not having them.

With the committees, I wonder if there is a difference between HOAs and COAs. Yeah, people are people. But the stated purposes of the two are different, as with the social event question. We don't have an ACC because exterior modifications in condos mostly don't happen (we approve screening in decks and porches and satellite dish placement, and that's about it). I've seen finance committees used successfully - but they were in HOAs where some of the residents were money-savvy and supplemented board expertise. I spent a chuck of my career in the financial services industry, so most of our homeowners know less about the topic than I do. I could use a crystal ball, though ... Finally, money is often so tight that spending priorities are pretty clear. We don't need help in deciding how to spend our money, we need help in getting $3 worth of spending out of every $1 of assessments.

As for the town hall, I think they held one at the annual meeting after the election didn't happen (I wasn't there, schedule conflict). Reading between the lines of the email we received, the final board member resigned because of what happened at that meeting. This is why I want to go slowly.

If there is simmering discontent that is being fueled by some vocational dissidents who are spreading misinformation, they need to be handled differently. You need to remove the emotional payoff they get from causing conflict. This means communications need to be factual, controlled and often scripted: brief bland boring, as I like to say. The trouble with in-person meetings is that it's too easy to react in the moment and go off-script, thus undermining your efforts. That why I'm thinking of polls and other written stuff first - because it will slow people down and let some of the energy out of the interactions.

When dealing with vocational dissidents, I try to have the emotional expressiveness of a rock. Which is pretty easy, I'm a no-drama type anyway, drama leads to poor decision making. But if that's not your default temperament, it can be hard to deal with the trouble makers. I suspect that our recently departed board members were not good at being rocks.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
How healthy is the reserve fund? :-)
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 05/09/2023 9:08 AM
How healthy is the reserve fund? :-)

They're good. We've been contributing in accordance with the most recent study (kudos to the "departed ones"), although we're due for a new study this year and it's not in the budget (booooo). :-)

I'd have said they were very healthy if not for the out-of-date assumptions in the last study, so assessments are going to have to go up. This will not be a popular message. In addition, our assessments were held down artificially through the use of volunteers, always going with the low bid, and eliminating what they viewed as unnecessary spending (annual audit, reserve study, repairs to an easement that we're totally responsible for and that is now in rugged shape). Remember when I commented that playing these games sets up future boards for problems when they have to raise assessments to realistic levels? Recess is over, I'm afraid.

If I were being totally selfish and Machiavellian, I'd say that a couple months of receivership may make those realistic assessment levels more palatable... /evil-grinch-grin

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/09/2023 10:11 AM
[good info snipped for brevity]
Remember when I commented that playing these games sets up future boards for problems when they have to raise assessments to realistic levels? Recess is over, I'm afraid.
From across the miles of the internet, it sure sounds like it to me.
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/09/2023 10:11 AM
If I were being totally selfish and Machiavellian, I'd say that a couple months of receivership may make those realistic assessment levels more palatable... /evil-grinch-grin


How's that web site coming?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
It's coming along. I started a blog in 2020 but abandoned it after a while because I didn't think I was adding anything new or different to the conversation. I've changed its focus to just personal commentary, although the general "here's what condos are all about" info is still there. Some of the topics we discuss on HOA Talk are there.

I still have to clean things up to make sure I didn't say anything indiscrete. I love snarkiness but it doesn't always play well, and this may not be the time for it.

One issue: blogs and commentary are usually "long form" content. The rule of thumb nowadays for newsletters and things that are intended for this kind of an audience is to assume you'll get three minutes of people's attention. So you put the important stuff in the titles and headers, and the supporting detail in the body of the articles (which probably won't get read). Something like an accompanying Facebook page with "just the essentials" is probably needed.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
It occurs to me that one of the causes of homeowners' relative cluelessness about HOAs/COAs is that short attention space. You can't learn much of anything in 3-minute chunks. I don't have an answer to this, although I certainly admire the problem. /snark
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 9:30 AM

I think your association has quite a few relationships with tenants.

If the previous board has delegated any responsibilities to the tenant/officer (or to any other person, bookkeeper, or a management company), then for the most part, those responsibilities are still delegated until rescinded. It probably doesn't matter that they made up a fake officer name.

If you are subject to Ohio Planned Community Law or the Ohio Condominium Act, then both have a law that owners and tenants shall comply with the governing docs and rules, and that the association may commence a civil action for damages, injunctive relief, or both, and an award of court costs and reasonable attorney's fees. In the case of condominiums, the association can also evict the tenant. So, something of a relationship.

And of course you have obligations to all residents. What do your documents say about tenants, guests, invitees, or residents?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 05/10/2023 3:23 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 9:30 AM


I think your association has quite a few relationships with tenants.

If the previous board has delegated any responsibilities to the tenant/officer (or to any other person, bookkeeper, or a management company), then for the most part, those responsibilities are still delegated until rescinded. It probably doesn't matter that they made up a fake officer name.

If you are subject to Ohio Planned Community Law or the Ohio Condominium Act, then both have a law that owners and tenants shall comply with the governing docs and rules, and that the association may commence a civil action for damages, injunctive relief, or both, and an award of court costs and reasonable attorney's fees. In the case of condominiums, the association can also evict the tenant. So, something of a relationship.

And of course you have obligations to all residents. What do your documents say about tenants, guests, invitees, or residents?

Yes, but also no - because I think we mean different things by "legal relationship".

Officers act under the guidance of the board. They have no independent authority. If there is no board, then any action the officer took would involve acting on their own authority and thus not lawful.

This is similar to the situation with our manager. She can continue to pay bills and do the things that are spelled out in her contract which is still in force. However, she can't take on new tasks unless authorized by the board - and the board does not exist. This is why associations that can't elect a board go into receivership - so that someone can lawfully conduct business. Both the manager and any officer who acted on their own authority when there is no board are risking legal action against them once a receiver or a new board is in place.

Legal relationships are not transitive. In other words, if A has a legal relationship with B, and B has a legal relationship with C, this does not automatically create a legal relationship between A and C.

In the case of tenants, it's the lease that creates the relationship with their landlord. If the association is not a party to the lease, it's hard to argue that there is a legal relationship there. Similarly, it's property ownership with the CC&Rs attached to their deeds that create the relationship between owners and the association. The tenant does not sign a purchase agreement, so the legal relationship is not there.

* Different states/communities may do this differently, though. *

Ohio's condominium act defers to the association's governing docs with regard to eviction of tenants. Our rental restriction requires a formal lease with a minimum of six months' duration, and the lease must state that the tenant is obligated to comply with our CC&Rs and other community rules and regulations. But we still can't evict a tenant, which fortunately we've had no need to do.

For lesser violations of the CC&Rs, we must enforce against the landlord, and our CC&Rs state that explicitly - ie. members are solely responsible for the actions of their guests/invitees/etc. We may send a tenant a copy of the violation notices, but any hearings/fines/whatnot will involve only the landlord. The landlord may pass on fines to their tenant, but that will be because of the terms of their lease - my association has no authority to fine tenants directly. This is verbatim from our attorney.

Related to this, boards need to be aware of something called "tortious interference", which is basically someone sticking their nose into a legal relationship to which they're not a party. In some states associations may not contact a tenant *at all* for any reason, and the landlord/member can take legal action against the association if the board or manager ignore this.

As usual, different strokes - and there is no such thing as a simple issue in Community Association Land.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/11/2023 5:30 AM

Yes, but also no - because I think we mean different things by "legal relationship".

Officers act under the guidance of the board. They have no independent authority. If there is no board, then any action the officer took would involve acting on their own authority and thus not lawful.

I agree with "yes, but also no".

It is not correct to say that officers have no independent authority and their acts (without a board) are not lawful. That is stated way too strongly.

Officers take guidance from the board, yes. But officers also have powers and duties granted to them in law and in the governing documents. They are officers of the corporation, not officers of the board. It is not just board guidance.

For example, a treasurer (officer) does not cease to be a treasuer if the board resigns (assuming that a treasurer does not have to be a director). A treasurer can continue to perform the standard duties of treasurer and if necessary can undertake some independent action in accordance with those duties. Treasurers have a certain level of independent authority due to their office. They also typically have authority and duties delegated from the (previous) board. The acts of a treasurer are not automatically unlawful (although some acts could be unlawful if they are unlawful.)
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 05/12/2023 10:36 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/11/2023 5:30 AM

Yes, but also no - because I think we mean different things by "legal relationship".

Officers act under the guidance of the board. They have no independent authority. If there is no board, then any action the officer took would involve acting on their own authority and thus not lawful.


I agree with "yes, but also no".

It is not correct to say that officers have no independent authority and their acts (without a board) are not lawful. That is stated way too strongly.

Officers take guidance from the board, yes. But officers also have powers and duties granted to them in law and in the governing documents. They are officers of the corporation, not officers of the board. It is not just board guidance.

For example, a treasurer (officer) does not cease to be a treasuer if the board resigns (assuming that a treasurer does not have to be a director). A treasurer can continue to perform the standard duties of treasurer and if necessary can undertake some independent action in accordance with those duties. Treasurers have a certain level of independent authority due to their office. They also typically have authority and duties delegated from the (previous) board. The acts of a treasurer are not automatically unlawful (although some acts could be unlawful if they are unlawful.)


True enough, for the officer positions that are defined in the bylaws and/or state law. For example, our bylaws list the duties for the President, Treasurer, and Secretary.

The issue I see is that the board invented this officer position, and its functions and duties are not defined anywhere in writing, as far as I can determine. If they were ever written down, they weren't published in the minutes(*) which only announced the appointment. Which means that these functions officially exist only in the departed board members' heads.

In addition, to the best of my knowledge this person did not perform an essential function as the treasurer would. So we can't reasonably claim urgency or need to justify this person's taking action. And in fact, the email in which our manager announced that we had no board did not mention this officer at all.

Finally the evidence strongly suggests that this position was invented for the express purpose of not filling a vacant board position, even though there were qualified persons willing to serve. So the appointment itself was tainted.

We're in uncharted territory.

(* The minutes were published on our previous community website. However, at the end of last month the board/manager implemented a new website - without warning and during a period when people are trying to pay assessments. People couldn't log in, and when instructions finally arrived and the dust settled, we discovered that none of the information from our old website is in the new one. It's a nice looking empty website. Ain't we got fun...)
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
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Posted By JeffT2 on 05/12/2023 10:36 AM

Officers take guidance from the board, yes.
Officers also take orders from the board. A refusal to follow those orders can result in the board removing them, completely lawfully.

If the entire board resigns, no entity is present to whom the treasurer would answer. In such a case, I think the treasurer had best either volunteer to be a director (assuming she meets the other qualifications to be a director), or resign.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
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Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 7:01 AM
Our management company is in charge and paying the bills. Their contract should be ending some time around October unless our incredibly foolish former board members agreed to a clause allowing auto-renewal.


I doubt that is legal - the management company would have no legal authority to run the organization without a board. It seems this would receivership area.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Are you saying, Cathy, that the Board appointed an officer instead of a director, i.e., a board member? Did those board members who made this appointment not know the difference between a board member and an officer? Do your bylaws permit the board the authority to appoint a person to a position that it creates? Ours do.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 05/13/2023 5:53 PM
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/06/2023 7:01 AM
Our management company is in charge and paying the bills. Their contract should be ending some time around October unless our incredibly foolish former board members agreed to a clause allowing auto-renewal.



I doubt that is legal - the management company would have no legal authority to run the organization without a board. It seems this would receivership area.


I misspoke. They can continue to pay the bills that result from current contracts that are in effect because these were negotiated by the board at the time. But they can't renew these contracts or enter into any new agreements on behalf of the association. You're correct about receivership.

We typically start negotiating new contracts for the coming year in early fall, so we need to get on with it. I'm surprised that we haven't had an announcement about a new meeting yet. It's worrisome that I'm the only one who seems to feel any urgency about this. It's too bad that the announcement about not having a board right now did not include a brief statement about the painful realities of receivership - maybe they thought that this crossed a line into advising the membership.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
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Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 05/13/2023 6:12 PM
Are you saying, Cathy, that the Board appointed an officer instead of a director, i.e., a board member?


Yes, this happened last year. There should have been two positions up for election last month, not one. And if we'd had that second director position filled, there would still be a board member in place after this latest resignation. This current mess we're in was a direct result of the decision to keep the third board spot unfilled.

Quote:

Did those board members who made this appointment not know the difference between a board member and an officer?


The person who resigned last year served four years without knowing the difference despite being told/corrected numerous times. It's also just possible that they did know the difference but refused to go along with the naming conventions because that would amount to someone else telling them what to do. They were that kind of a person...

Quote:

Do your bylaws permit the board the authority to appoint a person to a position that it creates? Ours do.


Yes.

I'd have thought that our trouble resulted from good faith confusion over the difference between a director and an officer - even though all of the board members had 3-4 years of experience under their belts at that point and should not have been confused. Except ... Tenants can't serve on the board. And none of the former board members responded to the announcement that we have no board with "Whoa, what do you mean, Officer Joe is still serving!" This suggests that they knew enough about what they were doing to get themselves into trouble, but not enough to avoid the trouble in the first place.

Interesting item:

Recently I ran across an article that talked about board member liability, when they're indemnified by the association, and when they may possibly become personally liable for their actions. Among other things the article mentioned board resignations. Yes, a director can pretty much resign whenever they want to or need to - but if their resignation causes unusual difficulties for the association, that could be viewed as a breach of their fiduciary duty and thus make the director personally liable. If nothing else it makes them vulnerable to accusations of breaching their duty. So... if you're gonna lock the place up and walk away, at least hand the key to someone else first.

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
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Posted By CathyA3 on 05/11/2023 5:30 AM

In the case of tenants, it's the lease that creates the relationship with their landlord. If the association is not a party to the lease, it's hard to argue that there is a legal relationship there. Similarly, it's property ownership with the CC&Rs attached to their deeds that create the relationship between owners and the association. The tenant does not sign a purchase agreement, so the legal relationship is not there.

The Ohio Condominium Act states:
"(A) All unit owners, their tenants, all persons lawfully in possession and control of any part of a condominium property, and the unit owners association of a condominium property shall comply with all covenants, conditions, and restrictions set forth in a deed to which they are subject or in the declaration, the bylaws, or the rules of the unit owners association, as lawfully amended."

This seems like a legal relationship, or perhaps we can just say tenants shall comply. The tenant does not have to sign anything. It is a law.

Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 05/11/2023 5:30 AM

Ohio's condominium act defers to the association's governing docs with regard to eviction of tenants. ...but we still can't evict a tenant, which fortunately we've had no need to do.


The law says:
"Except as otherwise provided in the declaration or the bylaws, a unit owners association may initiate eviction proceedings..."
Interesting wording. It does not say "unless prohibited" or the opposite "if allowed." It just uses a more vague language "Except as otherwise provided."

I'm guessing your docs are silent on eviction, which means it is not otherwise provided, so you can initiate eviction proceedings.

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Posted By CathyA3 on 05/11/2023 5:30 AM

For lesser violations of the CC&Rs, we must enforce against the landlord, and our CC&Rs state that explicitly - ie. members are solely responsible for the actions of their guests/invitees/etc.

I understand that you can't fine tenants, because it is not in your CC&Rs. I think that is true for most CC&Rs. But the law says you can enforce the CC&Rs on tenants through the courts and recover your legal fees (in theory).

Please quote your CC&Rs on: must enforce against landlord and members are solely responsible for the actions of their guests/invitees/etc.

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Posted By CathyA3 on 05/11/2023 5:30 AM
Related to this, boards need to be aware of something called "tortious interference", which is basically someone sticking their nose into a legal relationship to which they're not a party. In some states associations may not contact a tenant *at all* for any reason, and the landlord/member can take legal action against the association if the board or manager ignore this.

That is stated quite strongly. In many states the law allows an association to deal directly with tenants. In other states with no direct laws about tenants, it's also possible, but good to know your legal options in regard to tenants.

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