HOA-sponsored Board / ACC meetup at a restaurant?

Started by BillD16 • 46 replies • 564 views

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BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

It was only a day or two ago I shot my mouth off here about spending $$$ for social functions, something about “no ‘special Board meetings’ at Ruth’s Chris”.

So of course … my Board and our ACC (aka ARC) do not communicate well. In fact, we pretty much don’t communicate at all. Many of us have never met. Recent events (PMC transition, software glitches with our Dumbwebs portal, interest in modifying xeriscaping rules, etc) have led a few of us to think the Board and the ACC should have a sit-down and talk and get to know one another.

We could set up a ZOOM call, sure - but 4 Board members plus 5 ACC members: it’s going to be difficult to schedule, plus it probably won’t be the kind of interactive event that we’d like it to be{1}. In short, a meeting at a restaurant might offer some advantages:

- there’s at least one person who is constantly pushing for F2F meetings, this would make them happy
- a number of members have never met or even talked
- dining together is a very basic human bonding mechanism
- the promise of a nice free meal can likely get people to show up

I was thinking Louis American{2}, or Nuovo Vesuvio{3}, or perhaps a Brazilian steak house{4}, which would probably run about $75/person. No alcohol, no plus-ones. Currently, the ACC is our only committee. Maybe we’ll also invite our new PM (who has been treating us very well).

Am I tripping? I can only ask you to believe me when I say my honest intention is to bring the two groups together. But is this a terrible idea, regardless? I believe Cathy recently mentioned working to the Caesar’s Wife standard - would this look awful? Is $75/person too much? (on the other hand, cheaping out and going to Denny’s sets the wrong tone, I think).

Thank you,

Bill

{1} I’m a big fan of remote meet-ups. But even when I was involved in selling it during my corporate years, I still acknowledged the value of F2F, especially for an initial meet.

{2} joke.

{3} also a joke.

{4} numerous advantages including same price for everything, awesome vegetarian option built-in, upscale atmosphere.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Aside from the issues you mentioned, I wonder how much useful conversation you could have in a noisy restaurant (unless there is a separate room for meetings).

And are you required to have open meetings? (Sorry, my brain has room for CA and FL, then it's full.) If so, this gathering could easily cross the line into discussing association business and violate your open meeting requirement.

I know that some people have a hard time without face-to-face gatherings. But in person is still a risk for older folks and those with various health issues. I wish we could make all of our meetings hybrid, because I believe that in person meetings disproportionately discourage the folks in these risk groups, as well as those who can't drive, etc. It may not be a Fair Housing violation yet, but it's kinda flirting with the notion.

(Yeah, I'm permanently "scarred" after my years in the financial services industry where even the appearance of wrongdoing can be punished harshly. Too many homeowners already think badly of the board, why give them more ammunition?)

Not much help other than confirming your second thoughts about this. Ir won't necessarily blow up, but maybe it could.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

You could always do a brown bag something....everyone brings with they want (no booze please!) and no controversy over who picked up the tab.

I'm also thinking we've had dozens on conversations recently about casual meetings between board members and whether it should be considered an official meeting when everyone shows up, so you may have to call this a getting-to-know-you type of meeting and invite everybody.

Then again, this could be a nice way to recruit people for other advisory committees the board might be considering - you or another board member (the president?) can talk about advisory committees in general, what they can and can't do (because the board is chartering all of them) and if you have a specific interest in something, please leave your contact information and what you're interested in and we'll get back to you. If there isn't enough interest for a formal committee, we'd love it if you'd consider offering your time and talent to do some research on the board's behalf on certain issues.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/03/2023 7:24 AM
Is $75/person too much?

What line in your covenants are you using to justify this expense? It's one thing to use a line in the covenants about 'promoting the general well-being of the members' to justify throwing a party //for all owners//. To me, it's an enormous stretch to use this same line to justify buying a meal for directors and committee members.

If I were an owner, this would be way too much, and I would be disappointed in leadership. Though I admit the financial mis-step (as I see it) would not be enough to make me want to run for the board. I would just grumble to myself and any others who felt similarly.

It's a bit too close to compensating what are supposed to be //volunteer// board and committee members, too.

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/03/2023 7:24 AM
(on the other hand, cheaping out and going to Denny’s sets the wrong tone, I think).

The tone set by going to Denny's is far superior than the tone set by going out for a $75 per person meal. (And I know $75, covering tax and tip as well, does not buy much these days in Austin, Houston and Dallas when it comes to meals out.)

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

When we were getting ready to transition to a new management company, the board president and I met our new manager at a popular mid-priced restaurant. We each paid our own way - it didn't even occur to us to bill the association, and the new management company has strict policies about their employees accepting anything from their clients. FWIW.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Fire up your grill, buy some burgers or whatever, and invite them to come to your house for the get together.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/03/2023 11:43 AM
Fire up your grill, buy some burgers or whatever, and invite them to come to your house for the get together.

I agree.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

First, based on what BillD wrote, there needs to be a meeting between the Board & the ARC. It appears to me that would benefit the entire association and both the board and the ARC. To, me, that is always what board leaders should keep in mind to help make decisions.

Since BillD's HOA does have a Board-approved budget line item for social events, that fund could pay. But, I can see the Board becoming acquainted with and showing appreciation for all the work the ARC does by treating them to lunch if all are available at that time of day with their own funds. Sort of a reward for their service. BillD's right, imo, that sharing a meal helps forge social bonds. I like others' Ideas of having it on the premises either in a director's home or in a nice common area room.

In this situation, I think what would work very well is to have the food delivered by a mid-priced restaurant. The online menu goes to the participants who order via a director, who places the order with the food provider. A director could provide waters or sweet tea. If lunch is impossible, then a very early dinner of some sort.

A quorum of the board would be present so directors must simply be careful to not discuss pending agenda items at this luncheon if not permitted in Texas. IF something does emerge, a director just needs to say, "That's a good topic for a board meeting. I'll submit it as an agenda item."

Go for it is some version, Bill, sounds like your HOA needs it.

I'm not feeling like a dinner out at a restaurant feels friendly enough. And yes, $75 feels like too much.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Thanks y'all. I appreciate everyone's input, and I've enjoyed all of the different viewpoints.

At this point, I'm pretty much conceding that the restaurant idea is a non-starter. Oh well. My experience with group restaurant meals[1] almost certainly colors my thinking on the topic[3].

But I get the idea that it really isn't even the cost - the notion of the Board dining at neighborhood expense is Bad Optics. Some comments on what y'all told me:

> how much useful conversation you could have in a noisy restaurant (unless
> there is a separate room for meetings).

This is a fair point, although it's also part of the "nice restaurant" aspect: some places are just too damn loud. FIIFriday's or Tuby Ruesday's are out. Nicer places tend to be more conversation friendly (and many of them do offer rooms for larger parties). FWIW, there are two major Brazilian steakhouses in Austin (call then Chogo de Fao and Astancie) and (pre-COVID) I've eaten at both on multiple occasions - they're not noisy environments.

> in person is still a risk for older folks

I'm one of those older folks and yes, you're right. In fact, I'm That Guy on the Board who insists on ZOOM meetings. I see it all as a matter of risk management, though, and I think getting the Board and the ACC together is worth it. (Not looking to score a medal for it, though).

Also, the entire issue of whether or not this violates some kind of open meeting requirements we have is still a mystery to me.

> directors must simply be careful to not discuss pending agenda items at
> this luncheon if not permitted in Texas.

My mind boggles at this. Not like anyone is intentionally trying to commit fraud or anything - but yu have a group of people who are largely strangers to each other except they all raise camels. And you put them in room together and tell them "Have fun! And remember not to talk about camels!" But face it: there's gonna be camel-talk. There's really no way to avoid it.

> sounds like your HOA needs it.

Yes, it does. And thus I despair.

> What line in your covenants are you using to justify this expense?

Probably 'promoting the general well-being of the members', yeah. Although ...

> I can see the Board becoming acquainted with and showing appreciation
> for all the work the ARC does by treating them to lunch

I know it's lame but technically the 'appreciation' angle might work: ACC is the only committee left[4]. Some years ago my HOA did indeed throw a 'volunteer appreciation event' at a local BBQ place - I don't know how they justified it, but there's (at least) some precedent. But unless all of you come back with something like "That's a brilliant idea! Yes, do that!" I don't think I'm going there.

> call this a getting-to-know-you type of meeting and invite everybody.

I get it, but - I have to ask that you believe me when I tell you that it wouldn't work for us.

> Fire up your grill, buy some burgers or whatever, and invite them to
> come to your house

It's not a bad idea, except that I'd like to avoid any kind of 'home court advantage'[5].

Asking the HOA President to host is, I guess, a possibility. But his wife is a really nice, sweet lady and she'd spend a week+ tidying up the place[7].

> The tone set by going to Denny's is far superior

I don't disagree. But I'm not at all certain everyone would show up.

> And I know $75, covering tax and tip as well, does not buy much these
> days in Austin,

Absolutely true. But even if I could bring the cost down to $50/person? $20/person? Would that matter?

Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.

> the board president and I met our new manager at a popular mid-priced
> restaurant. We each paid our own way

I can see that working for 2 people. BoD+ACC is 9-10 people, though. Splitting the cost evenly could conceivably work at Chogo, where everyone is paying the same for the same churrasco service. At most other restaurants, though, I'd want to avoid this. I've seen people go completely non-linear about this stuff and it was bad enough that I can't even bear to footnote it.

> a nice common area room.

In the past we've rented a room from our local Boy Scout organization. I checked - it's currently $550 for a 32 person room. I'm sure we could do better if we tried - but meeting at Scout Headquarters is 75% of the cost of a meal at Chogo. I recently finished negotiating lifeguards for our pool - it works out to $770/day. And that was the lowest bid. $20 at my local Sonic will get me 2 * (cheeseburger, medium tots, medium soft drink) and a dirty look from the carhop for being a cheapskate.

> It's a bit too close to compensating what are supposed to be //volunteer//
> board and committee members, too.

I hear you, and yet I'm surprised to find myself taking this position: just how much deprivation do we need to endure for the privilege of volunteering? Parks and Recreation had a running gag about some charity that was over-the-top about misappropriating their funding for lavish Board meetings with all-you-can-eat lobster buffest, etc. Nobody wants that. But it seems like it's either lobster or Mother Hubbard's Cupboard. There's no real middle ground[8]. One of my big Pet Peeves is the notion that "volunteering means it's okay to do a crappy job". People who have that attitude bug the living hell out of me. But in my current state of frustration, I can see how "crappy job" is a not-unreasonable response to "thankless task".

Apologies. It's time to look for Plan B. I simply want the Board and the ACC to get to know each other.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's responses. I mean, there's an alternative universe somewhere where I didn't ask you guys and ran with it and ended up in jail (and in an infinite number of those universes it was a jail like the one in Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay) so this instance of myself is grateful. None of my comments are meant to be argumentative. I am frustrated and a bit demoralized - but it'll pass.

Thanks all.

Bill

[1] I dislike being tedious and repeating myself, but also I'm not really sure how much any of you know about my background: I've been a software engineer for most of my life, plus also 30+ years at a large corporate behometh. Dining out at 'nice'[2] restaurants on the company dime was a common (if not frequent) event. The folks over at FoodTV will back me up: meeting and bonding over food is a totally real thing.

[2] "Bob likes it nice" *chuckle*

[3] But that was in another country, and that lady is regrettably no longer with us.

[4] Pool committee chair quit over a year ago, Social committee chair quit right after Easter. Not grudge quits; they simply didn't have the time anymore.

[5] How to put this? A friend of mine told me about an ACC chair who hosted a get-together for the ACC members at his home, in his home office / man cave, with various diplomas and awards hanging on the wall, a long table with a big chair at the end, and guess who sat there?. A restaurant would prevent this kind of mind game[6] - with luck, Chogo would give us a circular table.

[6] To be sure, there are other mind games not so easily escaped. Who sits next to who, for instance. I've personally witnessed C-level executives play cut-throat musical chairs to score a good seat near the CEO. To his credit, the CEO - call him 'Sam' - wasn't an idiot, and took the seat closest to the projection screen/"stage" area and immediately turned his seat 90 degrees - so *nobody* was sitting next to him. If I wasn't pressed for time, I'd draw a picture for y'all. It was most definitely not an accident.

[7] Our First Family is a bit older than I am. Our President has gravitas that would crush an ordinary person down to neutronium, he's awesome. And their home is already spotless. But our First Lady would still work herself half to death cleaning up the 1% of molecules that were only 99% clean. I don't wanna be responsible for that.

[8] I often wonder how architects manage to get governments and companies to pay for anything more than a boring basic box structure - it's hard to get people to pay for intangible value.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 2:32 PM
Thanks y'all. I appreciate everyone's input, and I've enjoyed all of the different viewpoints.

At this point, I'm pretty much conceding that the restaurant idea is a non-starter. Oh well. My experience with group restaurant meals[1] almost certainly colors my thinking on the topic[3].

But I get the idea that it really isn't even the cost - the notion of the Board dining at neighborhood expense is Bad Optics. Some comments on what y'all told me:

> how much useful conversation you could have in a noisy restaurant (unless
> there is a separate room for meetings).

This is a fair point, although it's also part of the "nice restaurant" aspect: some places are just too damn loud. FIIFriday's or Tuby Ruesday's are out. Nicer places tend to be more conversation friendly (and many of them do offer rooms for larger parties). FWIW, there are two major Brazilian steakhouses in Austin (call then Chogo de Fao and Astancie) and (pre-COVID) I've eaten at both on multiple occasions - they're not noisy environments.

> in person is still a risk for older folks

I'm one of those older folks and yes, you're right. In fact, I'm That Guy on the Board who insists on ZOOM meetings. I see it all as a matter of risk management, though, and I think getting the Board and the ACC together is worth it. (Not looking to score a medal for it, though).

Also, the entire issue of whether or not this violates some kind of open meeting requirements we have is still a mystery to me.

> directors must simply be careful to not discuss pending agenda items at
> this luncheon if not permitted in Texas.

My mind boggles at this. Not like anyone is intentionally trying to commit fraud or anything - but yu have a group of people who are largely strangers to each other except they all raise camels. And you put them in room together and tell them "Have fun! And remember not to talk about camels!" But face it: there's gonna be camel-talk. There's really no way to avoid it.

> sounds like your HOA needs it.

Yes, it does. And thus I despair.

> What line in your covenants are you using to justify this expense?

Probably 'promoting the general well-being of the members', yeah. Although ...

> I can see the Board becoming acquainted with and showing appreciation
> for all the work the ARC does by treating them to lunch

I know it's lame but technically the 'appreciation' angle might work: ACC is the only committee left[4]. Some years ago my HOA did indeed throw a 'volunteer appreciation event' at a local BBQ place - I don't know how they justified it, but there's (at least) some precedent. But unless all of you come back with something like "That's a brilliant idea! Yes, do that!" I don't think I'm going there.

> call this a getting-to-know-you type of meeting and invite everybody.

I get it, but - I have to ask that you believe me when I tell you that it wouldn't work for us.

> Fire up your grill, buy some burgers or whatever, and invite them to
> come to your house

It's not a bad idea, except that I'd like to avoid any kind of 'home court advantage'[5].

Asking the HOA President to host is, I guess, a possibility. But his wife is a really nice, sweet lady and she'd spend a week+ tidying up the place[7].

> The tone set by going to Denny's is far superior

I don't disagree. But I'm not at all certain everyone would show up.

> And I know $75, covering tax and tip as well, does not buy much these
> days in Austin,

Absolutely true. But even if I could bring the cost down to $50/person? $20/person? Would that matter?

Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.

> the board president and I met our new manager at a popular mid-priced
> restaurant. We each paid our own way

I can see that working for 2 people. BoD+ACC is 9-10 people, though. Splitting the cost evenly could conceivably work at Chogo, where everyone is paying the same for the same churrasco service. At most other restaurants, though, I'd want to avoid this. I've seen people go completely non-linear about this stuff and it was bad enough that I can't even bear to footnote it.

> a nice common area room.

In the past we've rented a room from our local Boy Scout organization. I checked - it's currently $550 for a 32 person room. I'm sure we could do better if we tried - but meeting at Scout Headquarters is 75% of the cost of a meal at Chogo. I recently finished negotiating lifeguards for our pool - it works out to $770/day. And that was the lowest bid. $20 at my local Sonic will get me 2 * (cheeseburger, medium tots, medium soft drink) and a dirty look from the carhop for being a cheapskate.

> It's a bit too close to compensating what are supposed to be //volunteer//
> board and committee members, too.

I hear you, and yet I'm surprised to find myself taking this position: just how much deprivation do we need to endure for the privilege of volunteering? Parks and Recreation had a running gag about some charity that was over-the-top about misappropriating their funding for lavish Board meetings with all-you-can-eat lobster buffest, etc. Nobody wants that. But it seems like it's either lobster or Mother Hubbard's Cupboard. There's no real middle ground[8]. One of my big Pet Peeves is the notion that "volunteering means it's okay to do a crappy job". People who have that attitude bug the living hell out of me. But in my current state of frustration, I can see how "crappy job" is a not-unreasonable response to "thankless task".

Apologies. It's time to look for Plan B. I simply want the Board and the ACC to get to know each other.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's responses. I mean, there's an alternative universe somewhere where I didn't ask you guys and ran with it and ended up in jail (and in an infinite number of those universes it was a jail like the one in Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay) so this instance of myself is grateful. None of my comments are meant to be argumentative. I am frustrated and a bit demoralized - but it'll pass.

Thanks all.

Bill

[1] I dislike being tedious and repeating myself, but also I'm not really sure how much any of you know about my background: I've been a software engineer for most of my life, plus also 30+ years at a large corporate behometh. Dining out at 'nice'[2] restaurants on the company dime was a common (if not frequent) event. The folks over at FoodTV will back me up: meeting and bonding over food is a totally real thing.

[2] "Bob likes it nice" *chuckle*

[3] But that was in another country, and that lady is regrettably no longer with us.

[4] Pool committee chair quit over a year ago, Social committee chair quit right after Easter. Not grudge quits; they simply didn't have the time anymore.

[5] How to put this? A friend of mine told me about an ACC chair who hosted a get-together for the ACC members at his home, in his home office / man cave, with various diplomas and awards hanging on the wall, a long table with a big chair at the end, and guess who sat there?. A restaurant would prevent this kind of mind game[6] - with luck, Chogo would give us a circular table.

[6] To be sure, there are other mind games not so easily escaped. Who sits next to who, for instance. I've personally witnessed C-level executives play cut-throat musical chairs to score a good seat near the CEO. To his credit, the CEO - call him 'Sam' - wasn't an idiot, and took the seat closest to the projection screen/"stage" area and immediately turned his seat 90 degrees - so *nobody* was sitting next to him. If I wasn't pressed for time, I'd draw a picture for y'all. It was most definitely not an accident.

[7] Our First Family is a bit older than I am. Our President has gravitas that would crush an ordinary person down to neutronium, he's awesome. And their home is already spotless. But our First Lady would still work herself half to death cleaning up the 1% of molecules that were only 99% clean. I don't wanna be responsible for that.

[8] I often wonder how architects manage to get governments and companies to pay for anything more than a boring basic box structure - it's hard to get people to pay for intangible value.

Any chance you are over thinking this?

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

My personal opinion is that many topics posted here easily go the route of overthinking. It's fine to make a point or two but sometimes it gets too much into the weeds. There are certainly topics that could use some in depth analysis and others just "go with your gut". There is no HOA police. There are so many differences among all of the HOAs across the country. BillD, I would go with your gut on this one.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

BillD16, I agree that one can justify or rationalize a lotwith the covenant phrase 'promoting the general well-being of the members.' It's easy to land where Kerry's California (hmm) law firm friends at Davis-Stirling landed (in the thread Kerry recently started). But I happen to think that the Florida attorney I cited in that thread got it right, and the D-S site does a disservice, especially given how volunteers come from many walks of life. How people think about "professionalism" and "volunteerism" can vary greatly.

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 2:32 PM
Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.

Seconded; approved unanimously; let's set a date.

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 2:32 PM
> It's a bit too close to compensating what are supposed to be //volunteer//
> board and committee members, too.

I hear you, and yet I'm surprised to find myself taking this position: just how much deprivation do we need to endure for the privilege of volunteering?
...
[1] I dislike being tedious and repeating myself, but also I'm not really sure how much any of you know about my background: I've been a software engineer for most of my life, plus also 30+ years at a large corporate behometh. Dining out at 'nice'[2] restaurants on the company dime was a common (if not frequent), event.

Having worked for several years for two Fortune 500 companies, and also in the civil service, I am versed in how lavish Fortune 500 companies are with their employees, and how cheap the civil service is by contrast. But here's what comes to my mind:

If the volunteer work is so hard that one thinks one should be paid, or compensated somehow, isn't the better choice just not to volunteer?

Here's my cheesy closing:

World War II hero Major Dick Winters of Band of Brothers fame, when asked how does a soldier prepare himself for a jump into enemy territory, responded as follows:

"Each man must do that himself. Each man must prepare himself mentally to do that... "

Likewise each person him- or herself must set his or her limits on this issue. Same for each board.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Who is paying for Ruth's Chris? Dutch Treat or is the cost coming out of association funds?

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 05/04/2023 2:59 PM

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 2:32 PM

Any chance you are over thinking this?

Ya think? *laughs*

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

I'm a bit strapped for time - but really quickly:

> > Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.
>
> Seconded; approved unanimously; let's set a date.

Seriously, would that work?

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 5:34 PM

> > Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.
>
> Seconded; approved unanimously; let's set a date.

Seriously, would that work?

Yes. It stops my concerns about what I feel is inappropriate use of HOA funds.

I am not concerned you are buying influence.

The only remaining problem is quorum might be met. Best practices is that HOA business really ought not to be discussed when quorum is present. But I do not think Texas law is as rigid as some other states on the point.

You're meeting me halfway. If you pay, I would not grumble to my neighbors on either point.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

TPC 209 seems pretty reasonable on the quorum point:

Sec. 209.0051. OPEN BOARD MEETINGS. (a) This section does not apply to a property owners' association that is subject to Chapter 551, Government Code, by application of Section 551.0015, Government Code.

(b) In this section, "board meeting":

(1) means a deliberation between a quorum of the voting board of the property owners' association, or between a quorum of the voting board and another person, during which property owners' association business is considered and the board takes formal action; and

(2) does not include the gathering of a quorum of the board at a social function unrelated to the business of the association or the attendance by a quorum of the board at a regional, state, or national convention, ceremonial event, or press conference, if formal action is not taken and any discussion of association business is incidental to the social function, convention, ceremonial event, or press conference.

I say: Go in peace.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I suggested with all directors chipping in, Bill, so your treat sure seems like a fine idea. I'd also asked about TX quorum possible issues and ElleN's citation shows clearly that so long as you "don't take formal action" on board business, there's no need to call an open meeting.

Again, your reasons for wanting to do this are really important and clearly can benefit your HOA as a whole.

Since your CC&Rs DO have the phrase, "promoting the general well-being of the members," and clearly the ARC's work does just that, and since your budget does have an approved line item for social activities, you could go that route. But such an expenditure just doesn't seem to fit this situation.

ElleN seems to think I have friends at the the sizable CA firm that writes the excellent Davis-stirling.com resource. I know none of their large staff so have no idea what ElleN means by '...Kerry's (hmm) law firm friends...???" Their clear opinion is that the covenants do not even have to say something like "promote the general welfare" for boards to approve social activity funds or tokens of appreciation for volunteers in their annual budgets.

I did note ElleN's citation of a similarly large FL law firm, which spoke solely about FL condos & mobile home parks, which may not fund social activities unless the covenants say so. So they certainly did get it right: About that particular type of HOA in that particular state. The firm was silent about FL SFM HOAs.

I think our small annual gifts of a bottle of wine to volunteers is just right FOR US. Our Social Committee's budget is just right FOR US.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 5:34 PM
I'm a bit strapped for time - but really quickly:

> > Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.
>
> Seconded; approved unanimously; let's set a date.

Seriously, would that work?

Bill

That's probably OK as long as the open meeting/quorum issue doesn't come into play, and I don't think that it would be a serious ethics issue/bylaw violation with "compensation".

Codes of ethics around this seem to go one of two ways. They're either super-strict ($.10 is too much) or they're more reasonable (anything under $25 is OK). Any sense of how your community or state view this? Our former management company was super-strict - employees may not accept any gifts from clients. I think the strict version is easier to deal with since it doesn't involve a judgement call. The more reasonable version is, well, reasonable - it allows for some business socializing, but it can also be a slippery slope.

(My IT days were spent at a state university. Our code of ethics fell on the reasonable end of the spectrum, but we still didn't expect the employer to pick up the tab for our business lunches unless this was announced ahead of time, which seldom happened. It was probably more of a budget issue, though, since state universities' funding depends in part on tax payer and politician whim.)

I've decided that an essential skill for board members is infinite patience with picking nits...

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

One other "nit": how does the Volunteer Protection Act view something like this? Is it "compensation", or does the Act not care? Losing the protections provided by the Act could be a big deal.

There are no simple questions in HOA-Land...

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/04/2023 7:28 PM
I did note ElleN's citation of a similarly large FL law firm, which spoke solely about FL condos & mobile home parks, which may not fund social activities unless the covenants say so. So they certainly did get it right: About that particular type of HOA in that particular state. The firm was silent about FL SFM HOAs.

The attorney's opinion at https://www.naplesnews.com/story/money/real-estate/2016/11/19/social-event-expenses-proper-expense/92823844/ was responding to a question from a condo owner.

But for you to suggest that the response does not fit non-condo HOAs seems disingenuous. It's clear to me that the author is saying that, where the governing documents "do not include social event expenses within the scope of the common expense definition" then HOA funds should not be expended on social events.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

BillD16, I do not want to twist anyone's arm on this, but FWIW: Suppose a board announced that it had had a dinner get-together for the board and the ACC at say Austin's five-star Jeffrey's. The President explained he or she paid for it, because the board felt using owner funds for such a gathering was not appropriate. I would beam with pride and give the board a lot of credit and credibility. Such a board seems to want to be fair. If the Board is being fair on the little stuff, imagine how it will strive to be fair on the big stuff.

So I would think.

Surely there is a name for this psychological phenomenon. Do not make me resume watching "Billions" to get my education in industrial psychology.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

OMG, no wonder no one wants to serve on HOA boards. Who really wants to scrutinize every single detail for a meeting at a restaurant between the HOA board and the HOA ARC committee. There are at least 21 posts here regarding this topic. And some of them are pretty lengthy. The resident guru here gives it a blessing if BillD pays.

Seriously, who is going to complain? Most owners are so uninvolved they don't pay attention to what is going on. There are so many other things to be concerned about. I understand wanting to do things according to the governing docs and any applicable law, but there is no consensus here even from experienced current or former board members. That is why I say go with your gut. I had a college professor once say, just make a decision based on your best research even if the answer is not clear and what your gut is telling you...

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Not nice. I voiced my view and readily admitted that there was plenty of wiggle room for others to see it differently. I think I made clear this is not a hill on which I would be prepared to die at a HOA.

I agree there is no consensus at all on the point.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 05/05/2023 12:54 PM

ElleN, I am sorry it came across as a criticism of you. It was not my intention. I was just trying to making a point.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LayaS on 05/05/2023 12:49 PM
OMG, no wonder no one wants to serve on HOA boards. Who really wants to scrutinize every single detail for a meeting at a restaurant between the HOA board and the HOA ARC committee. There are at least 21 posts here regarding this topic. And some of them are pretty lengthy. The resident guru here gives it a blessing if BillD pays.

Seriously, who is going to complain? Most owners are so uninvolved they don't pay attention to what is going on. There are so many other things to be concerned about. I understand wanting to do things according to the governing docs and any applicable law, but there is no consensus here even from experienced current or former board members. That is why I say go with your gut. I had a college professor once say, just make a decision based on your best research even if the answer is not clear and what your gut is telling you...

Well said. If the goal is to form a working relationship then have a BBQ out back and get to know the players on a personal level. Have a beer, play horse shoes and get to know each other. HOA business can wait. This is the most important aspect for trying to create a long term working relationship. How to hold actual business meetings can be delt with later.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

One of the first things you learn as a new board member is the crazy stuff that homeowners can complain about.

This isn't a crazy complaint, though. Many homeowners howl about assessment increases, to the point where their communities are chronically underfunded and are neglecting essential maintenance. It's even worse in states and communities where homeowners have the ability to vote down new budgets and assessment increases. The board is dining out on homeowners' dimes and then they tell the homeowners that they have to pay more? I wouldn't want to stand up in front of the membership and try to explain why we need more money if we can afford to waste it, which is how many will see this. The optics are poor.

Right now condo owners in Florida are fighting against reform laws that were drafted in the wake of Surfside. They're fighting for the right to allow the place to fall down around their ears! Does this sound like a group that would be OK with the board helping themselves to some funds?

Besides this, nearly all community associations will have a group that thrives on conflict and looks for every opportunity to criticize the board. Generally the more reasonable folks don't pay much attention to the griping, but giving the complainers valid reasons to rage about the board is IMHO dumb. It's an own goal.

The fact that this stuff seems petty doesn't mean that it won't have real consequences. It's one of the more annoying things about board service.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/05/2023 1:40 PM
One of the first things you learn as a new board member is the crazy stuff that homeowners can complain about.

This isn't a crazy complaint, though. Many homeowners howl about assessment increases, to the point where their communities are chronically underfunded and are neglecting essential maintenance. It's even worse in states and communities where homeowners have the ability to vote down new budgets and assessment increases. The board is dining out on homeowners' dimes and then they tell the homeowners that they have to pay more? I wouldn't want to stand up in front of the membership and try to explain why we need more money if we can afford to waste it, which is how many will see this. The optics are poor.

Right now condo owners in Florida are fighting against reform laws that were drafted in the wake of Surfside. They're fighting for the right to allow the place to fall down around their ears! Does this sound like a group that would be OK with the board helping themselves to some funds?

Besides this, nearly all community associations will have a group that thrives on conflict and looks for every opportunity to criticize the board. Generally the more reasonable folks don't pay much attention to the griping, but giving the complainers valid reasons to rage about the board is IMHO dumb. It's an own goal.

The fact that this stuff seems petty doesn't mean that it won't have real consequences. It's one of the more annoying things about board service.

Just to be clear, I did not once say the cost of the dinner should be paid out of HOA funds. I can see why that would raise some eyebrows.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I prefer Morton's, or Eddie's in Southern California.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Bill

Regarding where to meet--

We are located in a newer area of McKinney. Many of the fire stations have a community room which can be used by organizations of residents for HOA and similar meetings. The most common use seems to be for polling locations for elections. You may wish to check with your city, as they manage the rooms in our area.

We have also had luck using the community room of nearby apartment buildings, sometimes there is no cost as they wished to be neighborly. We do purchase a thank-you gift of See's Chocolates for the office staff as a thank you.

I know others have dissuaded you and I will pile on: we have tried using restaurants and found the experience completely unacceptable in every way due to the noise, lack of privacy, and minimum expenditure required.

In our HOA in California, we used a local school. The facility was acceptable, the furniture was not as it was a classroom. The size of the chairs did encourage everyone to step smartly through the agenda.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 05/05/2023 1:59 PM
I prefer Morton's, or Eddie's in Southern California.

I would go with King Kongs just across the street from the Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha, Nebraska. Voted one of the best zoos in America. The burgers and gyros are the best! You could get in a visit to the zoo while you are there. However, the elevator to the gorilla complex is closed right now for maintenance.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

To continue to overthink, I am seeing the federal Volunteer Protection Act has this definition:

Volunteer
The term “volunteer” means an individual performing services for a nonprofit organization or a governmental entity who does not receive—
(A)compensation (other than reasonable reimbursement or allowance for expenses actually incurred); or
(B)any other thing of value in lieu of compensation, in excess of $500 per year, and such term includes a volunteer serving as a director, officer, trustee, or direct service volunteer.

See https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/14505#6

Oh-my-goodness as far as the VPA goes, one dinner (foregoing expensive drinks) at Austin's Jeffrey's on the HOA's dime would likely be under $500 (knock on wood) per person and so pass muster.

LayaS, pardon my misinterpretation.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

just invite the whole neighborhood.

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I'm sure you're sooo done with this topic, BillD. But my earliest suggestion--that you use a nice common area room on your premises--was based on the size of your HOA, which you noted elsewhere. Maybe 600 homes??? So I think I'm surprised there's no common area someplace-or-other for gatherings? When do you hold F2F board meetings?

I've held off on this story since I just learned the answer. Last week at noon, 3 directors, including the president, our PM and his assistant met in our Conference Room to go over a copy of our long rules & Regulations governing doc.. Since my retirement from the Board I've worked with the Board on updating our governing docs. I pared the verbiage down by 1/3 and I and the others had ideas for rules to eliminate or add. That AM, the GM emailed me with a menu from a fairly upscale sandwich & soup franchise. Our choices would be delivered to his office and we'd enjoy them during our meeting. He brought bottled water. Imo, it was a prefect & productive work/enjoy-a-meal together meeting. I had a swell 1/2 bacon, turkey, etc. club sandwich and a large cup of potato leek soup. So my suggestion to you wasn't original with me.

But, I wondered. Who paid??? Surely they didn't use Social Committee funds? I finally asked the president and he was the one who treated all of us.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/05/2023 7:29 PM
I'm sure you're sooo done with this topic, BillD. But my earliest suggestion--that you use a nice common area room on your premises--was based on the size of your HOA, which you noted elsewhere. Maybe 600 homes??? So I think I'm surprised there's no common area someplace-or-other for gatherings? When do you hold F2F board meetings?

I've held off on this story since I just learned the answer. Last week at noon, 3 directors, including the president, our PM and his assistant met in our Conference Room to go over a copy of our long rules & Regulations governing doc.. Since my retirement from the Board I've worked with the Board on updating our governing docs. I pared the verbiage down by 1/3 and I and the others had ideas for rules to eliminate or add. That AM, the GM emailed me with a menu from a fairly upscale sandwich & soup franchise. Our choices would be delivered to his office and we'd enjoy them during our meeting. He brought bottled water. Imo, it was a prefect & productive work/enjoy-a-meal together meeting. I had a swell 1/2 bacon, turkey, etc. club sandwich and a large cup of potato leek soup. So my suggestion to you wasn't original with me.

But, I wondered. Who paid??? Surely they didn't use Social Committee funds? I finally asked the president and he was the one who treated all of us.

Cool! And good for you for staying in the loop. My HOA has a tremendous lack of institutional memory.

So there’s precedent for ‘treating’. So many surprises in this; given all of the ‘gotchas’ in almost anything HOA-related, I would have thought there’d be an issue of ‘undue influence’.

Yes, we’re almost 600 detached single-family houses. But the closest thing we have to a common area is the pool house (2 bathrooms and a utility closet). I guess we could meet at the pool - which would be *very* public meeting - but then we’re at the mercy of the weather (highly variable this time of year)(the pool is our only amenity). But - it may be what happens.

> I’m sure you're sooo done with this topic,

*chuckle* Really, I’m just getting started with this, at least on my end of things. It is true that I ‘overthink’{1} but I view that as ‘extending the search tree’ and, frankly, good planning. YMMV, but I’ve found that if I’m presenting a proposition to a group (“let’s get the Board and the ACC together”) it’s best to be ready with an “tentative” implementation. The idea is not to force my ideas on them; I just want to save time and avoid hours of “well, what should we do?” It’s like back when I was doing college recruiting and asking “which of these three dates/times works for you for a phone call?” versus “when are you available for a phone call?”

Bill

{1} I’m seriously ADHD and I know it’s dreadful for some people but I love it.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/06/2023 7:42 AM

I am happy to hear that Kerry had a successful meeting with her group of directors and management people. That seems like the way to handle these types of get togethers, as a working lunch that was paid for by someone else rather than out of HOA funds.

BillD I am not surprised at your diligence in making sure you are doing things right with your meeting planning and in anticipating how to implement ideas. I was just trying to say sometimes you just have to go with it and that was not well received. I still believe that doing your homework is the best way to go but sometimes there is no clear answer. I think that is how it is in the HOA world. Believe me I am not one to spend money on these types of things especially someone else's money. I have had many opportunities during my working career to spend money on food and refreshments for a group. I often struggled with providing a good meal at the most economical cost. I tend to be kind of a frugal person. I would often buy food at the grocery store and prepare some of the food myself.

Carry on.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 05/05/2023 2:06 PM
Bill

Regarding where to meet--

We are located in a newer area of McKinney. Many of the fire stations have a community room which can be used by organizations of residents for HOA and similar meetings. The most common use seems to be for polling locations for elections. You may wish to check with your city, as they manage the rooms in our area.

We have also had luck using the community room of nearby apartment buildings, sometimes there is no cost as they wished to be neighborly. We do purchase a thank-you gift of See's Chocolates for the office staff as a thank you.

I know others have dissuaded you and I will pile on: we have tried using restaurants and found the experience completely unacceptable in every way due to the noise, lack of privacy, and minimum expenditure required.

In our HOA in California, we used a local school. The facility was acceptable, the furniture was not as it was a classroom. The size of the chairs did encourage everyone to step smartly through the agenda.

You're correct that there are plenty of meeting spaces we could find for low or even no cost. Some are probably kind of nice. I'd like to avoid church basements, schoolrooms, and in general places where they hold 12-step meetings. Carpeting would be nice. We can probably find something. I brought up the (high) cost of the local Boy Scout center as an example because my HOA has used it before, and it will almost certainly be the first suggestion for a location for our next annual meeting.

I've had numerous good experiences with groups at restaurants, especially if they're 'fine dining' and the waitstaff doesn't jump up on a table and do the Macarena on the hour{1} and thus quieter and more conversation-friendly. You mention "step[ping] smartly through the agenda" - for my purposes here, there's no agenda - it's not a business meeting. If it happens, it will be an "appreciation lunch". If we intended to conduct actual business there, yeah, we'd need a semi-private room at a minimum.

On the other hand, I once belonged to a volunteer organization called Bikers Against Child Abuse (BACA) and every meeting was either at a bar or the VFW. Members griped about the VFW because they could only drink beer in the conference room. But riding through a town in a pack with 30+ other bikers was way fun.

Bill

{1} Shoe's Jab Crack.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

To be fair, a lot of the length is my own wordiness.

I confess I don't see why Ællen was unhappy with what you wrote. But I'm happy y'all worked it out.

There is a 'management philosophy' that says "if a person comes to you and they've been researching hard and can't decide between option A or option B, you're best off flipping a coin and going with a random choice." The rationale being that if this person is intelligent and has been looking at the problem for awhile and they still can't decide (and you don't have any magical insight that one option is superior), then it probably doesn't make a lot of difference going A or B. It's possible to shoot holes in this (especially if one is playing Monday Morning Quarterback and looking at past decisions) but I think there's value in trusting your direct-reports and not wasting resources on an undecidable question.

It's a bit like Reserve Studies. Reserve Studies are essentially an attempt to predict the future. In a perfect world, you'd pay for one 25 year Reserve Study every 25 years. In practice it's recommended to refresh it every 1-3 years, because the future gets fuzzy with alternatives really really fast.

Bill

{1} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_method

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 05/05/2023 8:45 AM
BillD16, I do not want to twist anyone's arm on this, but FWIW: Suppose a board announced that it had had a dinner get-together for the board and the ACC at say Austin's five-star Jeffrey's. The President explained he or she paid for it, because the board felt using owner funds for such a gathering was not appropriate. I would beam with pride and give the board a lot of credit and credibility. Such a board seems to want to be fair. If the Board is being fair on the little stuff, imagine how it will strive to be fair on the big stuff.

So I would think.

Surely there is a name for this psychological phenomenon. Do not make me resume watching "Billions" to get my education in industrial psychology.

"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." - Luke 16:10 (KJV)

Technically it's known as "extrapolation".

(Both Axe and Chuck have terrible people skills. An awful lot of the show's action involves them attempting to fix something stupid that they did earlier)

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 05/04/2023 4:24 PM
BillD16, I agree that one can justify or rationalize a lotwith the covenant phrase 'promoting the general well-being of the members.' It's easy to land where Kerry's California (hmm) law firm friends at Davis-Stirling landed (in the thread Kerry recently started). But I happen to think that the Florida attorney I cited in that thread got it right, and the D-S site does a disservice, especially given how volunteers come from many walks of life. How people think about "professionalism" and "volunteerism" can vary greatly.

Posted By BillD16 on 05/04/2023 2:32 PM
Here's a wild-ass thought: what if *I* paid for the meal, myself? I assure you I've spent more on less.

Seconded; approved unanimously; let's set a date.

Quote:

I choose to volunteer on my HOA "in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."{1}

I'm not complaining that I'm underpaid. I don't want or need compensation. I'm simply frustrated at how broken so much of the HOA system seems to be. I believe it was started with good intentions, but it's pretty obvious that it's neither well-planned nor well-implemented. It's a hack-job that has grown by ad hoc accretion of patches over the years, without any real oversight, and the result is a mess. Instead of helping to get things done, it hinders progress and forces us to maneuver through a constantly shifting obstacle course of laws and rules and regulations that serve to make the experience not merely "unrewarding" but at times actively demeaning to anyone who is sincerely trying to work for the good of the community. I'm fairly certain that there are systems that implement checks and balances to prevent improper spending without assuming that everyone is a thief. I was entrusted to decide to spend over $30K on lifeguards this summer. I'm currently evaluating ~$150K worth of maintenance bids. But I can't be trusted to spend $750 on a lunch meeting? It's insulting.

None of my ranting is directed at anyone in this forum. I'm simply unhappy with this stupid broken system and how it's getting in the way of making progress.

Bill

{1} Yeah, I stole it from JFK.

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 05/06/2023 11:09 AM
I was entrusted to decide to spend over $30K on lifeguards this summer. I'm currently evaluating ~$150K worth of maintenance bids. But I can't be trusted to spend $750 on a lunch meeting? It's insulting.

Many will say directors can be trusted when they choose to use the members' money to treat the board and ACC to a $750 lunch. No, I am not one of them. I would be concerned about the board's judgment and sense of ethics if it conflated these two types of expenses. I particularly would not like my member's dollars buying lunch for a director or ACC member whom I know is incompetent. Maybe everyone on your board and ACC is competent. But what about the next board? Might others feathers get ruffled because some jackass of a director or ACC member is getting a high end meal on their dime?

Still, for $750, I would not be concerned enough to be compelled to run for the board. When I have run for the board, it's because the big stuff is not being addressed. I do not count this $750 as the big stuff.

It's insulting to my intelligence to argue this is not compensation to the board.

But this is just me.

Importantly, the federal Volunteer Protection Act seems to actually put a stamp of approval on what you propose to do with HOA money. This is not for nothing. It argues that my standards are not realistic.

Respectfully, I stand with Hindus, Buddhists and other non-Judeo-Christians in not believing in the authority of the literary work known as "the bible."

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 05/06/2023 12:09 PM

Respectfully, I stand with Hindus, Buddhists and other non-Judeo-Christians in not believing in the authority of the literary work known as "the bible."

No problem. The bible ref is the oldest one I know of. This stuff is a pet interest of mine - look up the Black Swan problem sometime.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LayaS on 05/06/2023 9:18 AM

Carry on.

Thank you.

I'm gonna sleep on it and ultimately the Board will need to vote on the matter, but at this point if the only consequence is "people might view it badly" - I'm inclined to accept that risk and just go for it. They can vote me out of office, or not vote for me if I choose to run again in 2024.

However it might look to other people, I know in my heart that I'm not just trying to soak the HOA for a free meal. And getting the Board and the ACC on speaking terms is such a self-evident and obvious good move that I'll have zero problem looking people in the eye and taking responsibility for it.

Or maybe you'll see my mugshot on the evening news

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

As I think I wrote more than once, BillD, THIS--the overall picture, the overall benefit to your corporation, is waaaaay more important than a poster's or A lone owner's misguided opinion that imputes motives to you that do not exist. Or, that one owner thinks perhaps some of the invitees might be "jackasses." Or that tokens of appreciate are "really" compensation.

Based on having read a lot of HOA literature and actively (vs. passively) serving on the 7-member Board of a complex urban high rise HOA for 14 years until quite recently, your approach is exactly correct: "...getting the Board and the ACC on speaking terms is such a self-evident and obvious good move that I'll have zero problem looking people in the eye and taking responsibility for it."

Your approach is well-captured in the Business Judgement Rule (BJR) that I believe is embraced by all states. Here's the opening to the Calif. version: “Calif. Corporations Code § 7231. Duties and Liabilities of Directors. (a) A director shall perform the duties of a director, including duties as a member of any committee of the board upon which the director may serve, in good faith, in a manner such director believes to be in the best interests of the corporation and with such care, including reasonable inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use under similar circumstances…”

There's more, of course to that citation. But, they way I see it, you, BillD, are acting in the very best interests of your corporation showing your duty of care, and your due diligence should suggest there's no reasonable way anyone can object to your action to improve your HOA.

Look, I'm intimately familiar with one's ability to "see" many angles and to, shall we say, even be distracted by some that are trivial. I personally know how easy it can be to go down rabbit holes created by others who seem to be "experts." Sometimes, we even know they're wrong, but the approach might be "interesting" or novel." Peel away that nonsense and discard it. Focus on the purpose of directors in corporations and you can't go wrong.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

This from someone whose very own board president would not bill the HOA for even sandwiches and soup but instead, paid for them himself/herself. It's too bad anyone would condemn this president for doing as his/her conscience dictated.

When I was on the board of a mega-HOA, I returned a decent vintage bottle of wine given me by a couple whose irrigation system I helped fix (said system being the responsibility of the HOA). I had accepted it after a long afternoon of working with the landscaper. I later realized this would not fly under the covenants. I informed the board; explained the situation to the couple; and returned the un-opened bottle.

If I were on a board where the majority voted to have the HOA pay for a meal for the board, without a second's hesitation I would decline attending. I would feel so guilty using owners' money for a personal benefit of not a small size, knowing that everyone bought into the HOA knowing the covenants say the board will receive no compensation. Like I was royalty and so deserving of this treatment from the kingdom.

I return to leadership lessons from Dick Winters. To get the most out of the owners one leads, consider: Leading by example. Do not seek credit for one's work. Be humble.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

There are just so many ways to have a good meal without using HOA funds. Really, it does not need to be fancy. My husband and I celebrated our 50th anniversary on Friday. We had breakfast for $21 and lunch for $28 combined. A 50th anniversary is certainly an occasion where a fancy meal would be an occasion for one. We just don't believe in spending a lot of money on meals out. And I love using coupons. The focus should be on the purpose and the comradery that can result from the get together. And getting results. Keep your eye on the results not on how expensive the meal is that is served.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 974

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 05/06/2023 5:08 PM
As I think I wrote more than once, BillD, THIS--the overall picture, the overall benefit to your corporation, is waaaaay more important than a poster's or A lone owner's misguided opinion that imputes motives to you that do not exist. Or, that one owner thinks perhaps some of the invitees might be "jackasses." Or that tokens of appreciate are "really" compensation.

Based on having read a lot of HOA literature and actively (vs. passively) serving on the 7-member Board of a complex urban high rise HOA for 14 years until quite recently, your approach is exactly correct: "...getting the Board and the ACC on speaking terms is such a self-evident and obvious good move that I'll have zero problem looking people in the eye and taking responsibility for it."

Your approach is well-captured in the Business Judgement Rule (BJR) that I believe is embraced by all states. Here's the opening to the Calif. version: “Calif. Corporations Code § 7231. Duties and Liabilities of Directors. (a) A director shall perform the duties of a director, including duties as a member of any committee of the board upon which the director may serve, in good faith, in a manner such director believes to be in the best interests of the corporation and with such care, including reasonable inquiry, as an ordinarily prudent person in a like position would use under similar circumstances…”

There's more, of course to that citation. But, they way I see it, you, BillD, are acting in the very best interests of your corporation showing your duty of care, and your due diligence should suggest there's no reasonable way anyone can object to your action to improve your HOA.

Look, I'm intimately familiar with one's ability to "see" many angles and to, shall we say, even be distracted by some that are trivial. I personally know how easy it can be to go down rabbit holes created by others who seem to be "experts." Sometimes, we even know they're wrong, but the approach might be "interesting" or novel." Peel away that nonsense and discard it. Focus on the purpose of directors in corporations and you can't go wrong.

Thank you, Kerry! And everyone else who weighed in. I've noticed that there is a very real 'process' in working out questions like this, and everyone's thoughts and opinions here were a big part of that.

I'll drop an occasional update in here and let y'all know how it goes.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

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