More on Short-Term Rentals

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

This popped up in my news feed recently:

BE AWARE OF ALTERNATIVE PROPERTY USES

This blog article discusses the increasing number of ways homeowners are using to monetize their homes in addition to more traditional STRs listed on Airbnb and the like. The author mentions the following examples:

* Curb Flip allows property owners to list their garages or driveways for rent on an hourly, daily, weekly, or monthly basis to park extra vehicles, RVs, boats, and more.
* Sniffspot lets dog owners rent private backyards at a host’s property to have their own private dog park for the day.
* With Swimply, property owners with pools can post them for rent by the hour, allowing anyone to experience owning a private pool for the day.
* Neighbor is another platform where property owners can list their basements, spare rooms, or even just a spare closet for rent on a monthly basis.

Oh goody, more websites for boards and/or community managers to monitor! I sure hope these entrepreneurial homeowners have checked their insurance to see if they're covered for this stuff. Renting out the pool seems particularly risky.

With all the stuff that's been going on lately, a nice well-managed apartment complex is beginning to look more and more attractive. At least I'd know ahead of time if there is a dog park or RV lot next to my unit ...

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I would say "now I've heard everything, but we all know someone else is cooking up yet another scheme.

I just thought of that conversation about the lady who began converting her garage to have more room for a day care center and asked for a variance (because she didn't ask for permission in the first place and then had to admit what she was doing.)

That's why I said I'd say nope to that request (the lady never said why she didn't adk a few questions did she - ans some counties have limits on the number of kids uou can have in a home based daycare anyway).

Coming soon to this website - people looking for loopholes in their documents as in "I'm not renting the house, just the driveway." Or swimming pool (which also came up on this website recently).

I hope people check out your link and consider if they need to head off this stuff before someone gets the notion to run his her own bark park.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Well, at least if you live in a neighborhood with an RV pad next to the house you know ahead of time what you're getting in to.

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Our documents have language that says you can only rent out the whole property - can't rent rooms or a portion.

One of our condo sub-associations just discovered a massage business (no clue exactly what kind) is being run out of one of the condos. They are doing what they can from their documents to shut down - and we have one about businesses that bring traffic. Those rules could apply also.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our CC&Rs are similar to Lori's-- can't rent out a portion portion of a condo.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

The examples listed by the author seem to apply more to single family homes. In addition to usual rental restrictions in condo CC&Rs, owners have no authority to rent out the common elements because they don't own them. And parking is such a problem in many condos, anybody who invited outsiders to park in the community would have some very ticked off neighbors.

At a community where I worked, one townhome owner did list a bedroom/bathroom only, which the board shut down fast. What really shocked me was that the owner was a single woman who lived alone and who remained in the home while the guests were there. That's pretty risky.

One recommendation in the article that puzzled me is narrowing the definition of "commercial use" in your CC&Rs. Does this make the restriction more enforceable because it identifies specific violations and isn't overly broad or ambiguous? That's the only thing I can come up with.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think there are SFH CC&Rs that also limit renting out any portion of the property, or using it for commercial purposes. Lori's may be an example. Depending on the CC&Rs exact wording, in some HOAs a new rule, or two, could be made. This is what we did when our old CC&Rs did not define (the prohibition against) "transient" purposes. We defined it as 30 days minimum based on the typical minimum limit in nearby municipalities.

Our new CC&Rs contain th language of 30 days.

Btw, though our CC&Rs always have forbidden renting put a "portion" of the Unit, that has not been enforced. The typical reason for renting out a portion is that a couple breaks up. One leaves on stays in the condo, but cannot afford the rent or mortgage payment on their own, so they get a roommate. Since parking here is entirely on the resident, and no Unit exceeds 2 bedrooms (some w/+den), this always has been just one person. it also is pretty rare.

In addition, we've over time had a few Units where a home-health worker has lived in the Unit in exchange for room & board and perhaps a small salary.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I think there are SFH CC&Rs that also limit renting out any portion of the property, or using it for commercial purposes. Lori's may be an example. Depending on the CC&Rs exact wording, in some HOAs a new rule, or two, could be made. This is what we did when our old CC&Rs did not define (the prohibition against) "transient" purposes. We defined it as 30 days minimum based on the typical minimum limit in nearby municipalities.

Our new CC&Rs contain th language of 30 days.

Btw, though our CC&Rs always have forbidden renting put a "portion" of the Unit, that has not been enforced. The typical reason for renting out a portion is that a couple breaks up. One leaves on stays in the condo, but cannot afford the rent or mortgage payment on their own, so they get a roommate. Since parking here is entirely on the resident, and no Unit exceeds 2 bedrooms (some w/+den), this always has been just one person. it also is pretty rare.

In addition, we've over time had a few Units where a home-health worker has lived in the Unit in exchange for room & board and perhaps a small salary.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Here is something "funny" about my new HOA, they don't seem to care about short term or rentals in general!!! Which I a totally in shock over. Not that it won't eventually develop into an issue. However, currently we have atleast one known AirNB and a quite a few full time rentals. Recently we had 2 major issues 1 rental and 1 "owned" assumed. The rental the people moving out apparently attracted rats/mice. A few surrounding neighbors got infected as well. The other "owned" house turns out the guy was getting BIG shipments of drugs to his house. He and his family are now gone but the home is for sale. Whether they owned it or someone else did unknown.

It is starting to look like in today's house market that short term rentals and long term are not being frowned upon as readily. Matter of fact, there is a development across town the houses are being built to be EXCLUSIVE Rent ONLY houses. There will be no "owners".

I think as the price of Rent has kept skyrocketed and less available homes are sellable, the trend will be more renters than owners in some HOA's.

Former HOA President

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

All I can say is: if I owned a rental house in San Fernando Valley, I’d be extremely picky about who I rented to.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699

Posted:

BE AWARE.........

Some people have other people come to their house, eat their food, have sex and stay over night for FREE.

Some people call it a date, but the HOA should be regulating it. Watch out!!!

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

In California HOA can't prevent rental of individual rooms 30 days or more in a separate interest. Also can't prevent short term rentals if owner lives in one of the units on the property or if property owned before a STR restricyion was recorded.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

In California HOA can't prevent rental of individual rooms 30 days or more in a separate interest. Also can't prevent short term rentals if owner lives in one of the units on the property or if property owned before a STR restriction was recorded.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/27/2023 3:43 PM
Here is something "funny" about my new HOA, they don't seem to care about short term or rentals in general!!! Which I a totally in shock over. Not that it won't eventually develop into an issue. However, currently we have atleast one known AirNB and a quite a few full time rentals. Recently we had 2 major issues 1 rental and 1 "owned" assumed. The rental the people moving out apparently attracted rats/mice. A few surrounding neighbors got infected as well. The other "owned" house turns out the guy was getting BIG shipments of drugs to his house. He and his family are now gone but the home is for sale. Whether they owned it or someone else did unknown.

It is starting to look like in today's house market that short term rentals and long term are not being frowned upon as readily. Matter of fact, there is a development across town the houses are being built to be EXCLUSIVE Rent ONLY houses. There will be no "owners".

I think as the price of Rent has kept skyrocketed and less available homes are sellable, the trend will be more renters than owners in some HOA's.

Aside from the nuisance factor of STRs, I'm concerned that home ownership is becoming increasingly out of reach for many people. For many who aren't in the top 10% or whatever, the equity in their homes makes up most of their net worth and is their only option for accumulating wealth unless their employers provide a pension or require participation in something like a 401(k). Renting can be an attractive option, but it's not the road to wealth for anyone but the landlord. I'm not sure this makes for a healthy society.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/30/2023 5:57 AM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 04/27/2023 3:43 PM
Here is something "funny" about my new HOA, they don't seem to care about short term or rentals in general!!! Which I a totally in shock over. Not that it won't eventually develop into an issue. However, currently we have atleast one known AirNB and a quite a few full time rentals. Recently we had 2 major issues 1 rental and 1 "owned" assumed. The rental the people moving out apparently attracted rats/mice. A few surrounding neighbors got infected as well. The other "owned" house turns out the guy was getting BIG shipments of drugs to his house. He and his family are now gone but the home is for sale. Whether they owned it or someone else did unknown.

It is starting to look like in today's house market that short term rentals and long term are not being frowned upon as readily. Matter of fact, there is a development across town the houses are being built to be EXCLUSIVE Rent ONLY houses. There will be no "owners".

I think as the price of Rent has kept skyrocketed and less available homes are sellable, the trend will be more renters than owners in some HOA's.

Aside from the nuisance factor of STRs, I'm concerned that home ownership is becoming increasingly out of reach for many people. For many who aren't in the top 10% or whatever, the equity in their homes makes up most of their net worth and is their only option for accumulating wealth unless their employers provide a pension or require participation in something like a 401(k). Renting can be an attractive option, but it's not the road to wealth for anyone but the landlord. I'm not sure this makes for a healthy society.

This is pretty much exactly what is happening right now in Austin.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

DavidP29 (California)
Posts: 100

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 04/30/2023 5:29 AM
In California HOA can't prevent rental of individual rooms 30 days or more in a separate interest. Also can't prevent short term rentals if owner lives in one of the units on the property or if property owned before a STR restriction was recorded.

So we have an owner doing this. He rented out his extra two rooms and you b are correct, there isn't anything we can do to stop it. Although we do charge move in/out fees. So everything he has someone move out/in there is a fee.

He recently took it to another level by putting up temp walls in his living room to create two additional bedrooms. This we are going to fight. In our view he changed it from a single family living unit to a commercial business to rent out rooms.

This guy is going to be an issue.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Try checking with your city or county. I know ours has ones about the maximum number if people that can live in a house based on the number of bedrooms, so if this guy is tryingbyo cook up a mini boarding house or something, that may be a way to stop him.

Also keep an eye on tge behavior of the residents and their compliance with community rules. You should already be doing this with everyone, whether they rent out their homes or not, but lots and lots of people can lead to lots of noise, trash and other abuse of the common areas, and that may be grounds for taking legal again him for allowing a nuisance and preventing others from quiet enjoyment of their homes. Talk to your attorney before proceeding.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Davis, what is the wording in your CC&Rs on rentals in reference to prohibiting renting a portion? Terri, might be a little off base here.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

David, what is the wording in your CC&Rs on rentals in reference to prohibiting renting a portion? Terri, might be a little off base here.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TerriS6 on 04/30/2023 5:29 AM
[In California, a HOA] can't prevent short term rentals if owner lives in one of the units on the property

Looks correct to me. From California Civil Code 4741 (e): "a separate interest shall not be counted as occupied by a renter if the separate interest, or the accessory dwelling unit or junior accessory dwelling unit of the separate interest, is occupied by the owner." I believe the latter took effect Jan 1, 2022.

Davis-Stirling.com speaks to California case law on the commercial business aspect here: https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/H/Room-Rental-Restrictions. Note the comment at the bottom saying that the new Civil Code 4741 (e) section may change the outcome of future disputes that reach the courts.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Thanks for the clarification, ElleN. My apologies to you, Terri.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

On the online front page of the Washington Post right now (May 28, 2023, Sunday afternoon of Memorial Day Weekend):

In One Suburb, A Backlash Against Homeowners Renting out Private Pools

Montgomery County weighs rules for Swimply, Sniffspot and other home amenity rental apps
[Excerpts]
...
The sounds of summer fun ripple up from ads for Swimply, an app that allows homeowners to rent out private pools to strangers looking to enjoy cool water under the hot sun. But that seasonal chorus has sharply divided suburban residents of Montgomery County as the local government considers formally regulating the short-term amenity rentals — potentially becoming the first in the nation to do so.

“Our entire block has been disturbed,” Constance Kiggans, a Chevy Chase resident, said in written testimony to the Montgomery County Council. “It is, for all intents and purposes, like having a pool club on the street.”

It is only mid-spring, but already dozens of pools in and around Maryland’s most populous county have been listed for rent on Swimply, which launched in 2020 as people sought alternatives to public pools that shut down because of the pandemic on the heels of the wild success of apps like Airbnb and Uber. Hosts set hourly rates anywhere between $25 to $100 an hour to access private backyard pools that bypass lines and crowds.

Unlike long-established home rental and ride sharing apps, newer apps that let people rent out their pools, home gyms and backyards have largely been unregulated across the United States so far. In fact, several jurisdictions, from the city of San Jose to towns across New Jersey to the state of Wisconsin, have tried over the past three years to ban the rentals or set up strict rules that require private pools to meet the same standards as a public pool.
...
Chief among the complaints detailed by pool sharing opponents is the noise.

The noise of parties arriving has often forced Kiggans to close her windows, she wrote to the Council, in an account that described people loitering on the street in bathing suits and carrying floaties, waiting for their turn to use the pool.

“This is a constantly renewed stream of paying ‘guests’ seeking to extract the maximum enjoyment from their poolside time,” Kiggans said in the letter.

A like-minded group of 36 county residents from Chevy Chase, Rockville, Montgomery Village, Kensington and Rosemary Hills, wrote a letter opposing the bill and asking the county instead to outlaw the amenity rentals altogether. The group argued that the rentals turn quiet residential neighborhoods into bustling business districts, without the infrastructure to support commercial activity. They raised dozens of concerns, largely over the added nuisance of strangers pouring into their neighborhoods because of the apps, congested roads, scarce parking, and noise and safety.

More at https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/05/28/swimply-montgomery-county-pool/

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Thoughts about the pool rentals:

* I wonder what the pool owners' insurers think about this. And, do we really need a few drownings before people (and insurers) start assessing risk properly? (Apparently.)

* I wonder what mortgage holders think. They're probably not at risk the way the insurer is, but if the loan is secured by the property and was not a commercial loan, maybe the lender would have something to say...? (*)

* At what point do these pools become public (ADA compliance, safety regulations, commercial insurance, etc.)?

* How is this not commercial use? (The one couple who was quoted in the article made it clear that the money from the pool rental was replacing lost income.) Or a nuisance violation?

* Homeowners in HOAs who are being disturbed by a nearby pool rental need to consider the benefits of crowd-funded lawsuits to make the economics work against the pool owner.

I dislike the way this country automatically thinks "lawsuit" for every dispute, but in cases like these, the lawsuit can be appropriate and effective. Bad behavior is such a problem because the consequences of the actions fall disproportionately on others - lawsuits can re-balance this.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

The commenters at the WaPo site are mostly fuming mad that this is happening. They seem to be all over the insurance questions and the zoning (residential use) questions. A lesser number questioned the applicability of public pool safety regulations as well.

No one brought up ADA compliance. I agree it's a good question.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DavidP29 on 05/02/2023 8:11 AM

Posted By TerriS6 on 04/30/2023 5:29 AM
In California HOA can't prevent rental of individual rooms 30 days or more in a separate interest. Also can't prevent short term rentals if owner lives in one of the units on the property or if property owned before a STR restriction was recorded.

So we have an owner doing this. He rented out his extra two rooms and you b are correct, there isn't anything we can do to stop it. Although we do charge move in/out fees. So everything he has someone move out/in there is a fee.

He recently took it to another level by putting up temp walls in his living room to create two additional bedrooms. This we are going to fight. In our view he changed it from a single family living unit to a commercial business to rent out rooms.

This guy is going to be an issue.

how the hell did you find out what he did inside his own home?

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SteveM9 on 04/28/2023 7:46 PM
BE AWARE.........

Some people have other people come to their house, eat their food, have sex and stay over night for FREE.

Some people call it a date, but the HOA should be regulating it. Watch out!!!

not only that but about 16-18 years latter the kids made during sex take up parking spots! Yeah it seems like fun now but when happens when you dont' have anywhere to park???

vis ta vie

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 05/29/2023 9:45 AM

Posted By SteveM9 on 04/28/2023 7:46 PM
BE AWARE.........

Some people have other people come to their house, eat their food, have sex and stay over night for FREE.

Some people call it a date, but the HOA should be regulating it. Watch out!!!

not only that but about 16-18 years latter the kids made during sex take up parking spots! Yeah it seems like fun now but when happens when you dont' have anywhere to park???

Steve was joking but I do not know where you are coming from.

TerriS6 (California)
Posts: 3,284

Posted:

How can you charge a fee for something that can't be prohibited in the governing documents?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 05/29/2023 6:19 AM
... snip ...

* At what point do these pools become public (ADA compliance, safety regulations, commercial insurance, etc.)?

Ask and it shall be answered, sort of, at least for my state. Quote:

"In Ohio, any pool serving more than three residential dwellings is considered a “public pool,” which means that nearly every condominium and homeowners association pool is classified as “public” despite its private ownership and access. This means that your community pool falls under the regulations outlined in the Ohio Health Code."

YOUR COMMUNITY POOL MAY REQUIRE LIFEGUARDS

And now I have another question: is a "residential dwelling" an individual condo unit or an individual building? Back down the rabbit hole...

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Ever-imitating Arnold Horshack --

From Ohio Revised Code (ORC) Section 3749.01 | Swimming pool definitions:

(F) "Private residential swimming pool" means any indoor or outdoor structure, chamber, or tank containing a body of water for swimming, diving, or bathing located at a dwelling housing no more than three families and used exclusively by any of the following:

(1) The dwelling's residents;

(2) The resident's nonpaying guests;

(3) A paying guest of a resident if the guest is participating in a certified swimming class conducted by the resident, provided that both of the following apply:

(a) The resident is a certified swimming instructor and is conducting the certified swimming class on a one-on-one basis.

(b) Not more than four individuals are in the pool at the same time during the class.

(G) "Public swimming pool" means any indoor or outdoor structure, chamber, or tank containing a body of water for swimming, diving, or bathing that is intended to be used collectively for swimming, diving, or bathing and is operated by any person whether as the owner, lessee, operator, licensee, or concessionaire, regardless of whether or not a fee is charged for use, but does not mean any public bathing area or private residential swimming pool.

DanielL3 (Louisiana)
Posts: 65

Posted:

Recently added to our restrictions:

No owner shall advertise for and enter into a short term rental or lease agreement of a single-family dwelling unless (i) it is for residential purposes, (ii) it is for a minimum term of no less than one year, (iii) it is for the entire dwelling and improvements thereon, (iv) it includes at least one tenant, per household, that is 55 years old or older. Furthermore, all homeowners and tenants must maintain compliance with all current and future Greens restrictions, rules and regulations.