When/where would the BOD made a decision on something like this?

Started by JamesB37 • 24 replies • 323 views

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JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

In California, what would be the proper forum to make this kind of decision:

In our community, we have had a 'speeding problem' for years, dating back to the early 2000's. Minutes from the time period indicate complaints about speeders and the request for more speed limit signs, speed bumps, speed humps, etc etc.

In the past, the Board would hire a traffic engineer to perform a traffic study and the Board would vote to follow the recommendations to follow the study which was usually use alternative methods like traffic calming devices (traffic shaping - lines in the roadway, etc)

Recently 'speeding' came up again and the PMC did one of those 'survey monkey' surveys regarding speed bumps. Less than 50 people responded (it was sent via email and we only have about 75% of the homeowner's email address on file to begin with) but those who did respond overwhelmingly voted no on speed bumps....

Didn't hear much about it since then, this was 4 or 5 months ago and I have been attending all the general meetings. At the last meeting there was an Agenda Item under new business "Acme Sign Proposal" (I made the name up) and when it came to that topic, the board announced that they had contracted with that company to install stop signs... There was never any discussion, it was more of an announcement and they did not go into any detail and none of the attending members had any idea what was going on. (I found out later they are going to ratify the contract at the next regular meeting.)

Well, about a month later, 'Acme Sign' installed over a dozen new stop signs, much to the surprise of the homeowners. Now it should be noted, that stop signs are traffic control devices, so that cars on a minor side street can safely get out onto a busier roadway.

That wasn't the case - these signs were installed at just about all the intersections on one of our main thoroughfares primarily to try to slow down the speeders. (A traffic survey would have never supported this.)

>>>>>> Actual Question <<<<<<<<
Where should have the decision to install these stop signs be made? Executive Session, Regular Meeting? (I would think there needed to be some discussion at a regular meeting followed by a motion and a vote, but that did not happen.) Again another 'transparency' issue I am running into with this board, and they actually shot themselves in the foot with this decision.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, James, you’ve been studying the Davis-stirling.com website. I’d like to see you tell us based on your growing knowledge the sequence of meetings and what they should be. You can do it!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

When our roads went "Public" we had no choice in where stop signs, yield, or other signs went. Could it be that your streets are now "Public" and not private? If so, then that means the police may be able to enforce speed limits versus the HOA. The HOA board may had no say in the matter except to turn over to the city.

Former HOA President

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I’m not sure what you’re looking for – you said speeding came up, the board did a survey, and based on the response they received, they decided to go through with installing the signs. As Melissa noted, there might also be an issue with the streets now being public and that may have been why the signs were installed.

I don’t remember how many homes are in your community so 50 responses may have been too small of a sample (20% is usually considered a great response to any survey). However, if everyone receive the survey, it would seem to me if people thought it was a bad idea, they had a chance to say so but didn’t. At some point, people have to take responsibility for what they do and don’t do.

You said you’ve been attending the meetings, which is good. Since you don’t get a note-for-note recap of who said what in the minutes (that’s not what they’re for), do you remember if there was a mention of one or several recent near misses due to speeding? What about a discussion as to which areas of the community had more of a speeding problem than others? Did anyone talk to the police to get their take?

It’s true that some boards need to be more forthcoming and this decision should have come to a vote during an open meeting because this concerned spending association money. Then again, perhaps there was a discussion, but you weren't paying attention because you were thinking about something else or talking to someone (or both) at the time. This is why you may want to take your own notes going forward because it can be hard to remember everything during a meeting, especially if it goes over an hour and there’s a lengthy discussion about this or something else. There are also emergency issues that may prompt the board to move other agenda items to the next meeting.

I realize you’re skeptical of your board explaining why it makes certain decisions, but it would seem this is something else you would have asked them about since you were at the meetings. In any case, you might not be happy with the signs, but that doesn’t mean everyone’s unhappy about it (none of these would have been necessary if some of your neighbors paid attention to their speed instead of pretending to be an IndyCar or Formula One driver). If you’re hearing pushback from your neighbors, suggest that THEY do what you’re doing and attend a few meetings.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Kerry
I think it should have been an agenda item with discussion at a regular meeting, but that did not happen

Melissa
No, our streets are private. Years ago, the board petitioned the County to make our streets 'Vehicle Code Enforced' but for some reason they never followed through with it. Around 2020 I got involved, looked into it and realized the only thing that needed to be done is to have 'Vehicle Code Enforced' signs posted at all the gates - which was done.

Where we are located, traffic enforcement would fall under the jurisdiction of the CHP - but they are not going to just come into our private community to enforce traffic laws. Basically it would require us to hire them to work a 'special event' type detail, like they do when you're having a 10k run, or some other event where you need traffic control. Cost is about $500 for a 4-hour minimum. I had all the contact info, costs etc. which I gave to the last board, but they never did anything with it. When our current board was seated, I again provided the info and for whatever reason decided not to go that route. Now we have a zillion stop signs, which has really pissed off all the residents (over 1,000 houses)

There was no discussion - they board basically told the people at the meeting (I was there, sitting front and center) that they awarded a contract for stop signs and that was about it.

Sheila
Speeding has always been a concern. I think I mentioned this before - the previous board pulled a similar stunt and paid a company around $120k for 'traffic shaping', where they paint lines all over the roads which makes it look like the actual path of travel is narrower, etc. - in an attempt to get people to slow down. It didn't work, and the uproar is the basic reason that entire board was voted out because they did not inform anyone what they were doing and did not solicit any input, just like this board did with the stop signs.

This was no emergency, there are speeding complaints from residents dating back to the 2004 minutes. It is very rare that we actually have a traffic accident, and especially not at the locations of these new stop signs.

Had I known it was going to be on the agenda, I would have certainly talked about it during the open portion of the forum, again - the agenda item was 'Acme Sign Proposal' which frankly I find to be pretty disingenuous. At least they could have listed it as 'Stop Sign Proposal'...

It's like one of the residents posted - if you're buying a home on one of the main streets of the community, there is going to be traffic

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

What matters here is the decision-making process, not details from years ago, etc., etc.

You’ve worked hard to learn CA HOA statutes. Based on what you know, James, in what kind of meeting would the Board first have this as an agenda item? Would further meetings be needed? If so, what is the sequence after this first meeting? What would the agenda items be called?

despite clear CA statutes about what Boards may discuss or take action on at an open meeting, your Board has taken the classic rogue directors’ approach: “Sure , we’ll post an agenda item for this topic. Yeah. Lesseee, how about calling it “Acme Sign Proposal?” That way no owners will attend and they’ll never know 4 days in advance that we intend to vote to install stop signs for this HOA. Yeah, yeah. Gotta keep these pesky Owners from knowing what we’re doing. They might not like it. What line itme will pay for all this? Who cares?”

I’t interesting to see the ways by which rogue boards avoid letting owner knows n advance of open meetings what the “real” topic or agenda item is. In this thread, the agenda item is so specific in that no Owner could possibly know its meaning.

In Phyllis’ thread elsewhere, the so-called agenda item is so vague that owners, similarly, have no idea what will be discussed. Both kinds of sliminess has the goal of keeping owners away from open meetings, keeping them in the dark, keeping them ignorant.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

James,

If multiple bids were asked and received, the decision and discussion could legally happen in executive session as it is the formation of contracts. It appears the notice to use the sign company was announced in the open session and properly noticed the agenda.

There is nothing in the statutes that says there has to be a discussion on the item. If your association allows an open forum, which they are required to do, and it is prior to the agenda item, any homeowner in attendance, could have brought up the topic when their name was called.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

And where, when, Max, would the Board vote to install these in the first.place? That decision has to be at an open meeting and properly noticed on the agenda 4 days in advance of an open meeting.

Bids to do the work obviously come later and MAY, but are not required to be, discussed in executive session.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Max
There was never anything made public before that decision was announced that they had awarded a contract. Had there been, I am sure the community would have responded with outrage, because we just went through this $120k Traffic shaping disaster 3 years ago.

Kerry
That was my thought as well
1. The Board needs to make a decision that they are going to install stop signs or not, which I think needs to be done in an open meeting and preferably with an open discussion with the members attending.
2. If the decision is yes, then they go about soliciting bids, which is going to take some time.
3. At a later Executive Session, they would then discuss the bids and select a contractor.
4. Announce that they have awarded a contract (which they did) in a regular meeting

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesB37 on 04/24/2023 8:30 PM
Where should have the decision to install these stop signs be made? Executive Session, Regular Meeting? (I would think there needed to be some discussion at a regular meeting followed by a motion and a vote,

I agree with you: The decision to install stop signs should have occurred at a properly notice regular meeting, with some verbiage on the agenda like "speeding control on roads" or similar.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

This is from the Agenda at the meeting where they announced the stop sign decision

"An announcement was made informing all present that the Board met prior
to this meeting in Executive Session to discuss personal, collection, legal
and contracts"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARTICLE 2. Board Meeting [4900 - 4955] ( Article 2 added by Stats. 2012, Ch. 180, Sec. 2. )

4935.
(a) The board may adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to consider litigation, matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties, member discipline, personnel matters, or to meet with a member, upon the member’s request, regarding the member’s payment of assessments, as specified in Section 5665.

(b) The board shall adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to discuss member discipline, if requested by the member who is the subject of the discussion. That member shall be entitled to attend the executive session.

(c) The board shall adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to discuss a payment plan pursuant to Section 5665.

(d) The board shall adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to decide whether to foreclose on a lien pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 5705.

(e) Any matter discussed in executive session shall be generally noted in the minutes of the immediately following meeting that is open to the entire membership.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesB37 on 04/25/2023 3:12 PM
This is from the Agenda at the meeting where they announced the stop sign decision

"An announcement was made informing all present that the Board met prior
to this meeting in Executive Session to discuss personal, collection, legal
and contracts"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARTICLE 2. Board Meeting [4900 - 4955] ( Article 2 added by Stats. 2012, Ch. 180, Sec. 2. )

4935.
(a) The board may adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to consider litigation, matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties, member discipline, personnel matters, or to meet with a member, upon the member’s request, regarding the member’s payment of assessments, as specified in Section 5665.

(b) The board shall adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to discuss member discipline, if requested by the member who is the subject of the discussion. That member shall be entitled to attend the executive session.

(c) The board shall adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to discuss a payment plan pursuant to Section 5665.

(d) The board shall adjourn to, or meet solely in, executive session to decide whether to foreclose on a lien pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 5705.

(e) Any matter discussed in executive session shall be generally noted in the minutes of the immediately following meeting that is open to the entire membership.

I validate your concerns.

Run for the board with people who feel as you do.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I am confused. Article 4935 says they can meet in ES for the formation of a contract between third parties and they properly announced it in the agenda or minutes.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

My take on that, maybe I am wrong, how can they award a contract in Executive session if they didn't get several bids? It takes time to get bids, how can they do it all in one meeting.

Ellen - I am. This stop sign fiasco has probably pissed off enough people to vote the entire board out. I now have at least 4 people who have turned in applications for the position, myself included. The current board actually thinks they are being 'transparent'

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesB37 on 04/25/2023 4:54 PM
My take on that, maybe I am wrong, how can they award a contract in Executive session if they didn't get several bids? It takes time to get bids, how can they do it all in one meeting.

Ellen - I am. This stop sign fiasco has probably pissed off enough people to vote the entire board out. I now have at least 4 people who have turned in applications for the position, myself included. The current board actually thinks they are being 'transparent'

How long do you think it takes to get bids?

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Longer than one meeting would last?

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

James,
From what I have read on this post and your replies I think you have a valid complaint for a few reasons.

1) So, a survey monkey gets sent out and x number of people reply, and it gets done? That is craziness.

2) If the board wanted to take an action on Stop signs after gathering the SM results that should have been placed on the agenda. The board should have discussed it in the open meeting and made a motion to get 3 bids.

3) The review of the proposals could have been done at the next meeting and a vendor selected after a motion was made and discussion took place. This would have required no action till the next meeting.

4) What was the rush? It appears like this has been a problem for many years.

I was on a board in Ca. for 8 years and spent my last 4 years as the president. We also had private streets and at the time we were not gated. We added 2 stop signs in problem areas, but it was well advertised, and it had community support. The cost for the stop signs is minimal but the lack of transparency is major.

As others have mentioned your best defense regarding this stuff is to get elected and become a leader not a complainer. Bad leaders can ignore complainers.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

There are a handful of posters trying to give to posters who generally are just homeowners, not board members, looking for solutions that they can't do anything with. Remember, there are about 2 million board members throughout the U.S.

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

"Executive sessions of the board of directors are provided by statute, so boards can address confidential matters. Because they are confidential, members do not have a right to attend the meetings or to review executive session minutes.

What is confidential about the actual decision to install stop signs and spend our money?

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

James,
IMO you are correct. The only things allowed in Executive session is Litigation, Personnel issues, Disciplinary issues and Formation of Contracts which is different from awarding Contracts.

The problem you now have is what can you do about it after the fact? I am thinking not much unless you want to try and take the board to court and spend a lot of your personal money and the HOAs money to fight you. I would just be very vocal and let them be judged at the next election.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JamesB37 on 04/25/2023 4:54 PM
This stop sign fiasco has probably pissed off enough people to vote the entire board out. I now have at least 4 people who have turned in applications for the position, myself included.

I was wondering if this might get owners crawling out of the woodwork. Excellent. Since this mis-step by the board got others' attention, I say run a positive campaign (for the board seat), but find a polite and effective way to wield this latest snafu like a cudgel. In my experience, such major mis-steps often lead to new directors getting elected at the annual meeting.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

You are exactly right, the way I see it, about the sequence of meetings that needed to occur, by statute, to start this stop sign project. Max’s remarks dont’ mnake sense. surely he does not think a board can decide to install stop signs in an HOA woithut that approval and decision occurring at an open meeting?

I’ve been following your efforts for a while now, Jamie’s, and you’ve learned more in a short time than any othe poster I’ve seen on this site. Kudos!.

Having run 7 times ,a nod won, to be elected as a director, every campaign was different. In some I was part of a slate, which you might consider forming. We sent out a joint very positive letter to all owners with little policy o our smiling faces. We’re did not, and Inever have done negative campaigning. Focus on what you’ll do in the best interest of the whole community and AVOID a list of the current Board’s sins.

Onward!

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

to further add from the Davis-Stirling web site

Executive Session. Boards of directors are allowed to meet in executive session to consider "matters relating to the formation of contracts with third parties." (Civ. Code §4935(a).) This includes meeting with consultants to set bid specifications, reviewing and discussing proposals submitted by contractors, discussing the qualifications of the various bidders, and reviewing contract language with HOA legal counsel.

Ellen
I agreee

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351

Posted:

Here is my problem

What do I do about it? I just chatted with a board member, and he admitted this stop sign decision was made during 'Executive Session' because they were concerned about liability, which is a bunch of BS. All they had to do was commission another traffic survey and follow the recommendations. We never have had a serious accident in the 20 years that I have lived here, and the board basically caved to the squeaky wheels that purchased their houses on the main thoroughfare where there is a lot of traffic. A simple speed survey would have documented the speeds involved (sometimes people perceive cars are speeding when they are not) and more importantly the location of the higher speeds and would have offered some recommendations.

So I am thinking of writing a letter to the Board/PMC outlining my concerns about them making this decision (and others) in Executive Session when they should have been made in a public forum. If they are in agreement (or see my point), then great - we can all move forward. If not, I will probably ask for another IDR to try to get my point across, (fiduciary duty, etc.) That is about all I can do short of legal action, and that would be just a waste of money for me and the HOA.

It's about transparency and following the law

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Consider asking the Board at the next open meeting open forum to make such s decisions like adding stop signs be done in an open meeting per Civil Code xxxx/ Request t that the Board so that owners can hear and see the deliberative process.. Remind them that such a Board decision may not occur in executive session as it did. That violatesCalifornia’s Open Meeting Act.

I would NOT get into another IDR,etc. If you’re elected,you need to be able to work with some of the current directors.

In your election campaign, share with owners how your approach to board strive is full transparency at open meetings. List the correct way to make such decisions. Avoid repeating shat the Board id wrong. Instea list j how to do it right.

Sorry about my numerous typos in previous post. In case it was unclear,, I won every election.

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