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CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
... in homeowners' continuing efforts to monetize their properties:

Backyard Event Rentals: Problems Posed for Homeowner Associations

Summary:

These efforts cause the same sorts of issues posed by short-term rentals or other businesses that bring customers into a community. These issues include nuisance violations, damage to the common areas, increased (and possibly uninsured) liability for the association, and an increase in crime as a result of inviting strangers onto the property. The possibility of port-a-potties in back yards gives this a little extra dose of ick.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
I could care less if my neighbor rented out their pool.

vis ta vie
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
At least until the noise and ensuing trash blow over into your yard, or a blackout drunk guest ( or two or three) toss their cookies all over your lawn and somebody else pees in your flowerbed.

"I could care less" doesn't always work, so be careful what you speak into the universe.....

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Oh, can't forget the folks who advertise said party in Facebook and tge whole damned city shows up.. this has happened in my area (thank goodness not my community) and GUNFIRE resulted after someone got into a fight and got mad.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 11:40 AM
I could care less if my neighbor rented out their pool.

That is very short sighted.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/08/2023 4:18 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 11:40 AM
I could care less if my neighbor rented out their pool.


That is very short sighted.

It sure is.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 04/08/2023 5:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/08/2023 4:18 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 11:40 AM
I could care less if my neighbor rented out their pool.


That is very short sighted.


It sure is.

It's even worse if a board member takes that attitude. Clueless homeowners, sure. But a board member has a duty to understand this stuff. Wait 'til some rando wanders into the property, gets hurt, and sues the association - and then the association's insurer looks at it and goes "nah....". The torches and pitchforks will be out, and homeowners will show up on this very website ranting about their crappy board who ignored their fiduciary duty and now everybody is on the hook for an uninsured loss and should they file a lawsuit on top of it.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I feel pretty confident that already-in-place covenants prohibiting the commercial use of one's home can largely thwart owners who rent their backyards or pools. The article mentions this. Keeping the case law on STRs in mind, I think such covenants are going to be more effective against pool and backyard rental than home rental.

If the party (thrown by renters) in the back is not causing some flavor of nuisance, and no one complains, no harm, no foul. People do throw parties and have guests (paying no fee of course).
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 04/09/2023 7:16 AM
I feel pretty confident that already-in-place covenants prohibiting the commercial use of one's home can largely thwart owners who rent their backyards or pools. The article mentions this. Keeping the case law on STRs in mind, I think such covenants are going to be more effective against pool and backyard rental than home rental.

If the party (thrown by renters) in the back is not causing some flavor of nuisance, and no one complains, no harm, no foul. People do throw parties and have guests (paying no fee of course).

Why do you think so? In my mind they're both commercial use of residential property. The one difference I can see is that there is some form of legal agreement for home rentals, including the STRs, that may be absent for the backyard rental (which I think may come back to bite the owner of the property if true). The presence of a signed agreement argues *for* commercial use IMHO.

FWIW, our rental restriction prohibits the renting of a portion of the property - you have to rent the entire thing. So renting the backyard or pool would be prohibited in communities with similar language.

Insurers may actually be more effective in quashing this stuff - if insurers say they're not going to cover the HOA for incidents like this, that's a compelling argument for boards to take action.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/09/2023 8:01 AM
Posted By ElleN on 04/09/2023 7:16 AM
I feel pretty confident that already-in-place covenants prohibiting the commercial use of one's home can largely thwart owners who rent their backyards or pools. The article mentions this. Keeping the case law on STRs in mind, I think such covenants are going to be more effective against pool and backyard rental than home rental.

If the party (thrown by renters) in the back is not causing some flavor of nuisance, and no one complains, no harm, no foul. People do throw parties and have guests (paying no fee of course).


Why do you think so?
Because some of the case law on rental housing has pointed out that renters are "residing" in the home as families 24/7 and this is not a violation of use restrictions. When it comes to "use," I believe some courts have said this means a rental is not "commercial" per se.

I know you disagree and take the position, particularly with STRs, that money is exchanging hands for use of the property as housing, so in your eyes, there are no "ifs, ands or buts": The STR housing is "commercial" use, very much like a hotel.

But you know how it goes in the courts: the devil is in the details of the covenants and how one court sees words vis-a-vis another court. You would not say that all the cases involving STR housing and a covenant prohibiting "commercial" use have resulted in the court ruling against the owners of the STR housing, would you?

I admit I am going from memory. I am not 100% sure to what extent the courts have faced this particular dispute ("commercial use" covenant prohibition vs. STR housing).

Regardless, I think one cannot reasonably make the same "use" argument for pool or backyard rental, because such a rental typically lasts less than a day.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
OK, makes sense. I think that case law is still pretty inconsistent - that may also have something to do with how individual states view "property rights" (some are more restrictive than others).

My takeaway from all of it is that communities that wish to keep STRs out shouldn't rely on the "commercial" argument and should instead have a robust rental restriction that forbids hotel-style or corporate housing, requires a formal lease lasting a minimum of six months or other time period, and requires that the entire unit be rented. My community's restriction says all three of these things, and STRs would fail on two of them (hotel-style and no formal lease).

As far as the commercial restriction in HOAs goes, I view anything involving an agreement between adults to exchange compensation for goods or services as "commercial". I also believe that the nature of the goods or services being exchanged is immaterial - ie. just because it involves people living in someone else's property doesn't make it non-commercial. When people start "renting out" their property to strangers without compensation is when I may reconsider this. I think this is the IRS's, lenders', and economists' view as well, and who am I to argue with them? My county also requires owners of STRs to pay lodging taxes, and I believe other jurisdictions may do the same - ie, STRs are hotels.

Of course, if HOAs or anyone else insists on specialized definitions of words - ie, arguing that rentals aren't commercial because they're residential and thus OK, rather than saying they're an acceptable form of commercial activity - it introduces inconsistencies, case law being an example. People can be using the same words to mean different things, and this does not add clarity. I want clarity, dang it!

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
People have the hardest time understanding two very simple words, rights and ability.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 04/09/2023 1:13 PM
People have the hardest time understanding two very simple words, rights and ability.

They're very simple until people, of their own free will, enter into contracts with terms that limit these. "Limits", though. Now there's a word that a lot of folks do seem to have a problem with - namely, they don't want 'em. There are whole tribes of lawyers ready and willing to help out folks who sign contracts and then feel hard done by when the other party expects them to live up their agreement.

That's probably 95% of the discussions we have here.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/09/2023 12:56 PM
My takeaway from all of it is that communities that wish to keep STRs out shouldn't rely on the "commercial" argument and should instead have a robust rental restriction that forbids hotel-style or corporate housing, requires a formal lease lasting a minimum of six months or other time period, and requires that the entire unit be rented. My community's restriction says all three of these things, and STRs would fail on two of them (hotel-style and no formal lease).
Sounds good to me. And I realize you are either partly or wholly reflecting here what your HOA attorney advised your HOA to do, so extra points for posting something that has been given a lot of thought, including by a legal professional.

I wonder what ChatGPT would say to the question: "What wording would be best for a rental restriction for a homeowners' association"?

ChatGPT is fed by the internet. With all the chatter on this on the net, it might come up with a decent answer.

Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/09/2023 12:56 PM
As far as the commercial restriction in HOAs goes, I view anything involving an agreement between adults to exchange compensation for goods or services as "commercial". I also believe that the nature of the goods or services being exchanged is immaterial - ie. just because it involves people living in someone else's property doesn't make it non-commercial. When people start "renting out" their property to strangers without compensation is when I may reconsider this. I think this is the IRS's, lenders', and economists' view as well, and who am I to argue with them? My county also requires owners of STRs to pay lodging taxes, and I believe other jurisdictions may do the same - ie, STRs are hotels.
Your definition of commercial works great for me, but yes, the courts have distinguished "commercial use" from "residential use," so definitions are now formally out of synch. The rental restriction you describe above is needed.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/08/2023 4:12 PM
At least until the noise and ensuing trash blow over into your yard, or a blackout drunk guest ( or two or three) toss their cookies all over your lawn and somebody else pees in your flowerbed.

"I could care less" doesn't always work, so be careful what you speak into the universe.....

awesome free cookies and pee fertilizer.

googled and couldn't find any pool renters leaving free cookies or even blowing trash, you sure do have a good imagination though and also probably no clue how pool rentals work.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/09/2023 5:26 AM
Posted By JohnT38 on 04/08/2023 5:15 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/08/2023 4:18 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 11:40 AM
I could care less if my neighbor rented out their pool.


That is very short sighted.


It sure is.


It's even worse if a board member takes that attitude. Clueless homeowners, sure. But a board member has a duty to understand this stuff. Wait 'til some rando wanders into the property, gets hurt, and sues the association - and then the association's insurer looks at it and goes "nah....". The torches and pitchforks will be out, and homeowners will show up on this very website ranting about their crappy board who ignored their fiduciary duty and now everybody is on the hook for an uninsured loss and should they file a lawsuit on top of it.

how will an hoa get sued for an activity not on common grounds?
do you actually believe half the crap in that article?
you actually think most pool rentals come with an included portapotty rental that would easily add $200 to $300 to the tab.

it's a fearmongering article that isn't based in reality.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
knock knock
Door opens.
Excuse me sir, It sounds like you might have people using your backyard pool?
YEAH, SO HOW CAN I HELP YOU.
Well you can't rent your pool out?
SAYS WHO?
The hoa does not allow commercial pool rentals.
WHO SAYS I'M RENTING IT OUT? THEY ARE JUST FRIENDS.
Oh ok, have a good day.

Is there even a single case of a pool rental causing an actual HOA problem?

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Think the attorney who wrote that stupid article needs to look for another profession.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 04/09/2023 1:38 PM
Posted By LetA on 04/09/2023 1:13 PM
People have the hardest time understanding two very simple words, rights and ability.


They're very simple until people, of their own free will, enter into contracts with terms that limit these. "Limits", though. Now there's a word that a lot of folks do seem to have a problem with - namely, they don't want 'em. There are whole tribes of lawyers ready and willing to help out folks who sign contracts and then feel hard done by when the other party expects them to live up their agreement.

That's probably 95% of the discussions we have here.

We are going through a similar situation right now with our regular problem child. The tenant parks more than one car in the street and in the driveway, jacks them up and works on them, The covenants state, work on your car inside the garage with
the door closed. Now we're reasonable people, it gets hotter than hades and nobody wants to work on their car with the door closed when it is 115 degrees outside. We also understand cars break down, batteries die and tires go flat.
I certainly do not want to impose on someone to tow their car out of the community just to change a tire or replace a car battery. C'mon pulling rotors and calipers, CV joints etc getting oil all over the asphalt is
beyond reason.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
As usual, Wendy thinks that just because she's never heard of something it must not exist. I know I don't know everything, which is why I never make assumptions. Especially when I see stuff like this:

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2023/04/06/indianapolis-crime-police-want-your-help-to-stop-illegal-parties-short-term-rental-properties/70088099007/

And this: https://www.theinvisibletourist.com/why-you-shouldnt-use-airbnb-issues-you-didnt-know/

To be clear, we weren't just talking about someone renting out a pool. Why in the hell would you rent the pool only when people are unlikely to just show up in swimwear and they'll still need a place to eat, drink and take a shit. That's what happens at most parties (among other things).

So if you don't give a hoot about your neighbor renting out his/her house and pool, congratulations, but I have a feeling some of the other folks in your community feel otherwise, hey! You've said they tend to be an apathetic bunch - maybe this is the issue that'll wake them up.

PS: take a look at sone of the discussions on this website about rowdy guests - you migh find this enlightening: https://community.withairbnb.com/t5/All-Discussion-Rooms/ct-p/host

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/09/2023 9:25 PM
As usual, Wendy thinks that just because she's never heard of something it must not exist. I know I don't know everything, which is why I never make assumptions. Especially when I see stuff like this:

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2023/04/06/indianapolis-crime-police-want-your-help-to-stop-illegal-parties-short-term-rental-properties/70088099007/

And this: https://www.theinvisibletourist.com/why-you-shouldnt-use-airbnb-issues-you-didnt-know/

To be clear, we weren't just talking about someone renting out a pool. Why in the hell would you rent the pool only when people are unlikely to just show up in swimwear and they'll still need a place to eat, drink and take a shit. That's what happens at most parties (among other things).

So if you don't give a hoot about your neighbor renting out his/her house and pool, congratulations, but I have a feeling some of the other folks in your community feel otherwise, hey! You've said they tend to be an apathetic bunch - maybe this is the issue that'll wake them up.

PS: take a look at sone of the discussions on this website about rowdy guests - you migh find this enlightening: https://community.withairbnb.com/t5/All-Discussion-Rooms/ct-p/host

What does your post have to do with backyard rentals?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Is the backyard not part of the house? It's a party - people don't spend all their time in the yard or pool. Maybe it's been a minute since you've been to one...

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 04/10/2023 4:59 AM
Is the backyard not part of the house? It's a party - people don't spend all their time in the yard or pool. Maybe it's been a minute since you've been to one...

LOL your website links have nothing to do with renting out pools. False analogy. Someone renting out an entire house and then having a big party is not the same as a home owner renting out their pool only, WHILE THEY ARE AT THE PREMISE, for a few hours

get real. you think any homeowner with a pool would want their place trashed or to have more than a dozen people over much less hundreds to their pool Why the heck do you think the pool rentals typically include an increased fee for more people?

vis ta vie

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