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JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
PMC just sent out applications for our BOD and indicates there are only (2) positions available. (The PMC website indicates the term for all (5) BOD expire this summer, but who knows)

In any case, summer of 2020, the community elected (5) new board members. Within the first 6 months, the top two Directors, who should have had the three year terms, resigned (moved out of the area). The remaining BOD appointed (2) new directors to fill the vacancies and per the bylaws, these (2) directors should have assumed the 'balance of the unserved term of their predecessor' which would be 3 years each.

2020 - elected (5) new Directors
2021 - no election, no terms have expired yet
2022 - the (2) two year terms were up, we had an election but didn't meet quorum, so these two directors stay on for another 2 year term?
2023 - PMC indicates there are only (2) positions up for election but I think there should be 3, what am I missing

Here is the legalese - Note, his was one huge paragraph/wall of text and I broke it up into individual sentences. It looks like to me that we should have (3) openings this year, but specifically states "the term of office of the three (3) Directors receiving the highest number of votes at the first annual meeting"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the first annual meeting of the Members, and thereafter at each annual meeting of the Members coinciding with the expiration of a Director's term of office or at which a vacancy on the Board exists, the Members shall elect new Directors by secret written ballot as provided in these Bylaws.

All positions on the Board shall be filled at the first annual meeting.

If an annual meeting is not held, or the Board is not elected thereat, the Board may be elected at any special meeting of the Members held for that purpose.

Each Director shall hold office until his successor has been elected or until his death, resignation, removal or judicial adjudication of mental incompetence.

The term of office of the three (3) Directors receiving the highest number of votes at the first annual meeting shall be three (3) years and the term of office of the two (2) Directors receiving the next highest number of votes at the first annual meeting shall be two (2) years.

At each annual meeting thereafter, new Directors shall be elected to fill vacancies created by the death, resignation, removal, judicial adjudication of mental incompetence or expiration of the terms of past Directors.

The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years.

The term of office of each Director elected or appointed to fill a vacancy created by the resignation, death or removal of his predecessor shall be the balance of the unserved term of his predecessor.

Any person serving as a Director may be reelected, and there is no limit on the number of terms which he may serve.

Cumulative voting must be used in the election of Directors for any election in which more than two (2) Directors are to be selected, subject only to the following procedural requirements: A Member may cumulate his votes for any candidate for the Board if the candidate's name has been placed in nomination prior to the voting and if such Member, or any other Member, has given notice at the meeting prior to the voting of such Member's intention to cumulate votes.

If a Member cumulates his votes, such Member may cast a number of votes equal to the Member' s share of the voting power as set forth in the Master Declaration, multiplied by the number of Directors to be elected.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
And we need more lawyers.

You need to look further, possibly in your Articles for the actual term of office AFTER the first annual meeting.

I would try and interpret that the term is two years and they should be staggered.
MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200
Posted:
Honestly, I don't think it really matters. The basic idea is that 2 directors are up some years and 3 directors are up others.

The pandemic threw everything into a weird situation as annual elections couldn't be held as normal in 2020 until Boards figured out a new way of doing business.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Max - I will keep looking, thanks

Michael - it matters if we want to get control of our HOA back...
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Our community has a similar experience, but all of our terms are for three years. The president and I ended up going through several years of board meeting and annual meeting minutes to figure out who started when, was the member appointed to serve to finish out a term or fill a vacancy. It got more confusing when some board members were appointed, tgenbekected,then elected, resigned- and were appointed again. We eventually got it straight and then put in the minutes when everyone was up for reelection, so we could keep track if everyone's comings and goings.

You will probably have to do the same, startingveith your first annual meeting as max suggested. You may still end up with only two open slots, but you'll know where you stand. Ideally you have two people up one year and three the next, or you may have a 2-2-1 scenario they should all work, because it's good yo have a mix of new and experienced members. I also think it's easier if everyone has tge same length of term - and now you know why.

You're correct in that the two who were up in 2022 get another two years because there was no quorum. Assuming the terms started this year, they should be up in 2025. If you still can't figure it out, go with the two oldest members.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
You've cited the above previously, James, and I, and maybe others said what Max now states. I agree with him.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
I can't find anything else in our Bylaws, or other governing docs

The Bylaws clearly state:

"The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years."

So basically we have (5) new Directors filling a vacancy by the expiration of the term of office in 2020. And someone, somehow, decided to split them into two groups. 2 year terms and 3 year terms. I don't know how many positions were available last year, so I guess that will be my next step to try to find out.

Any idea what document I could ask for a copy of that they would have used in 2020 to decide who got a 3-year term and who got a 2-year term?

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Keri - yes, it came up in another thread. At that time - I was going by what was documented on the PMC's website. I actually asked in writing, probably a couple of months ago now, how many positions were open and when was the actual annual meeting, and they never responded (my mistake for not following up on it)
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/24/2023 5:26 PM

2022 - the (2) two year terms were up, we had an election but didn't meet quorum, so these two directors stay on for another 2 year term?
2023 - PMC indicates there are only (2) positions up for election but I think there should be 3, what am I missing
So far I think the argument for all five positions being up for election in summer 2023 is good. Of course a rogue board will say otherwise.

If you want to pursue this, then IDR is the first step. Your letter asking for IDR needs to be succinct, emotion free and just-the-facts. Post your draft here, and I will try to help.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Based on my understanding of your Bylaws, there are no 3-year terms. The only way there could be is if your members voted --back in '20? to amend the Bylaws that there be three-year terms. I doubt that happened.

The place where they then-board decided all 5 seats were available and what the terms would be would be in the election materials they sent in '20, which you can ask for, but given what you've written, the Board & PM won't cooperate.

At the advice form our HOA attorney, when our Board ended up with too many vacancies, the top 2 voters got a 2 year term and the bottom o he 3 elected received a one-year term. This returned us to staggered terms a you bylaws also indicate.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/25/2023 9:39 AM
Based on my understanding of your Bylaws, there are no 3-year terms. The only way there could be is if your members voted --back in '20? to amend the Bylaws that there be three-year terms. I doubt that happened.

The place where they then-board decided all 5 seats were available and what the terms would be would be in the election materials they sent in '20, which you can ask for, but given what you've written, the Board & PM won't cooperate.

At the advice form our HOA attorney, when our Board ended up with too many vacancies, the top 2 voters got a 2 year term and the bottom o he 3 elected received a one-year term. This returned us to staggered terms a you bylaws also indicate.

Like many HOA's we missed an entire year with no Annual Meeting so in order to return to staggered terms, we had a vote for all 5 BOD positions. Top 3 vote getters, two year terms. Next 2 vote getters one year terms.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
John - That makes sense. I *think* that is what they *tried* to do, based on what was called for in the first annual election (for us it was top (3) got 3-year term and the other (2) got 2-year terms, but it doesn't explain why we only have two open positions this year
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
This is just basic math. look at your AOI and date your hoa was incorporated lets say it was 1/1/2020
In 2022 first terms expire and 2 people get elected
in 2023, second terms expire and 3 people get elected.
2024 = 2 people
2024 = 3 people

no one cares about that time when the HOA president was shot and someone replaced him
or that time when all 5 board members resigned and needed to be replaced.
or that time when covid made the annual meeting get cancelled.

terms are based on dates, not extenuating circumstances.

the board members can draw straws or play rock paper scissors, etc. to figure out when their term ends. that's on them. Don't let there ignorance somehow interrupt basic grade school math.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
If President Biden died tomorrow, would Kamala serve 4 years or the remainder of the term?

come on it's really that simple.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 03/26/2023 12:14 PM
This is just basic math. look at your AOI and date your hoa was incorporated lets say it was 1/1/2020
In 2022 first terms expire and 2 people get elected
in 2023, second terms expire and 3 people get elected.
2024 = 2 people
2025 = 3 people
above should be 2025. excuse the previous typo


vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 03/26/2023 12:14 PM
terms are based on dates, not extenuating circumstances.
Not according to my reading of the bylaws.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
James,

Expecting that your Association is incorporated, corporate statutes would also apply.
Per those statutes, at the end of ones term, the sitting director would continue to serve until their replacement is elected or they resign.

Since you did not have a quorum at the last meeting, the sitting directors who were up for reelection would continue to serve until the next election (when their replacement would, hopefully, be elected). The new Director would then serve out the remainder of the term that started the year before.

However, if the remaining board members appointed those same people to the seats, then they would start serving a new term and those seats would not be up at the next meeting.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 03/26/2023 1:03 PM
Since you did not have a quorum at the last meeting, the sitting directors who were up for reelection would continue to serve until the next election (when their replacement would, hopefully, be elected). The new Director would then serve out the remainder of the term that started the year before.
How come you do not think what you posted does not conflict with this bylaw: "The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years."?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/26/2023 1:35 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 03/26/2023 1:03 PM
Since you did not have a quorum at the last meeting, the sitting directors who were up for reelection would continue to serve until the next election (when their replacement would, hopefully, be elected). The new Director would then serve out the remainder of the term that started the year before.
How come you do not think what you posted does not conflict with this bylaw: "The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years."?

Because, in my opinion, it doesn't.

The new term started already but the sitting directors stayed in office, CA Corporations Code §7220.
They were not appointed or elected to that new term, so they don't serve the new full term (that started at the election where no quorum was obtained).
They would simply serve, per the code, until their replacement had been elected.
The next election would be at the next general meeting.

Of course, this is why attorneys stay in business. A simple issue that has multiple opinions on how it would be settled.
To determine which opinion must be followed, one would need to obtain a ruling from a court.
Otherwise, the interested parties involved can utilize whichever interpretation they all agree with.
That interpretation may or may not pass legalities, but it does save money being spent in court.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 03/27/2023 4:26 AM
Posted By ElleN on 03/26/2023 1:35 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 03/26/2023 1:03 PM
Since you did not have a quorum at the last meeting, the sitting directors who were up for reelection would continue to serve until the next election (when their replacement would, hopefully, be elected). The new Director would then serve out the remainder of the term that started the year before.
How come you do not think what you posted does not conflict with this bylaw: "The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years."?


Because, in my opinion, it doesn't.

The new term started already but the sitting directors stayed in office, CA Corporations Code §7220.
They were not appointed or elected to that new term, so they don't serve the new full term (that started at the election where no quorum was obtained).
Nowhere do I see that a "new (two-year) term" commences for the director who continues because of a failure to achieve quorum at the annual meeting.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Ellen,

Per the initial posting (emphasis added):

The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years.

The new 2 year term started when the last term expired. The seat for that term remained vacant, as there was no quorum to hold an election. However, per statute and the OPs bylaws, the sitting director remains in office until the replacement is elected.

Some will likely look at the same sentence and say that it plainly says that the term of one elected shall be two years.
However, that is not the intent of the sentence or the section of bylaws.
The intent is to have staggered terms and the new term starts when the old term expired.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our Bylaws say anyone appointed as a BOD Director will serve out the remaining term of who they replaced. The main purpose being to keep staggered terms in balance.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 03/27/2023 9:39 AM
Ellen,

Per the initial posting (emphasis added):

The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years.
I am homed in on the "elected" part of the above. The director who continued because there was no quorum at the annual meeting was not elected.

You seem to count the start and end of terms based on the calendar. Because of the wording in the bylaws and statute, I count them in part based on when someone was elected or appointed. Terms depend on the specific director's circumstances of taking office (appointed; elected; continuing because of lack of quorum; et cetera).

Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 03/27/2023 9:39 AM
The new 2 year term started when the last term expired. The seat for that term remained vacant, as there was no quorum to hold an election. However, per statute and the OPs bylaws, the sitting director remains in office until the replacement is elected.

Some will likely look at the same sentence and say that it plainly says that the term of one elected shall be two years.
However, that is not the intent of the sentence or the section of bylaws.
The intent is to have staggered terms and the new term starts when the old term expired.
You say this is the intent. I say the intent remains unclear when reading the entirety of what the OP posted.

I think you are also overlooking the option this HOA has to hold a special meeting to elect directors when an annual meeting is not held.

There seems to be little agreement in this thread about how many seats should be open at the coming annual meeting. To me, this spells defeat for the OP. He will have to claw his way to getting himself and others he likes elected, with the board deciding each year which seats are up for election, hopefully with at least some reason to support their decision.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 03/27/2023 10:01 AM
Our Bylaws say anyone appointed as a BOD Director will serve out the remaining term of who they replaced. The main purpose being to keep staggered terms in balance.
Directors who continue because of a failure to reach quorum fall into neither the "appointed" nor the "elected" categories. Per many bylaws and statutes, they are often in a position of "limbo." I believe this forum has often translated this to mean that they stand for election at the next annual meeting. This is to ensure owners have a fair chance to replace them.

I think the board will have to make a command decision here, aiming for fairness and reasonableness. Whatever choice the board chooses, I think all should admit the choice is not going to have a clear basis in the bylaws or statutes, and no choice will.

The one thing I do support is re-writing the bylaws.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The way to solve this dilemma is to just eliminate the quorum for the election of directors. I would support getting rid of quorum altogether for all matters.

To those who say they don't want a small minority having the ability to control things, I say I fear boards having the power they wield over the members themselves making decisions.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I agree with getting rid of quorum, but remember tyranny of the majority is just as obnoxious as when a minority does it. When the homeowners fail to keep an eye on what's going on with their board, this is how a tiny group of people manages to intimidate everyone else and do whatever they want because "we are the board and therefore we are." If people learn nothing from this website it's that living in an HOA requires you pay a bit more attention because you're a business partner with everyone else, many of whom you didn't know existed until you bought your home. If you can't or don't want to at least read your documents, attend the annual meeting, review the budget and board meeting minutes every so often, go live somewhere where you don't to do all that. If you can't avoid a HOA, try to find a voluntary one where you can choose to join or not.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I too support getting rid of quorum for owners' meetings.

I also support requiring HOAs to offer at least one of the following for all owners' votes: online voting or absentee ballots.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/27/2023 10:44 AM
I too support getting rid of quorum for owners' meetings.

I also support requiring HOAs to offer at least one of the following for all owners' votes: online voting or absentee ballots.

I believe in secret ballots, online voting is NOT secret.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/27/2023 10:08 AM

The intent is to have staggered terms and the new term starts when the old term expired.
You say this is the intent. I say the intent remains unclear when reading the entirety of what the OP posted.

You and I are saying the passage has the same intent.

We simply disagree on when the term starts.

I say the new term starts, per my interpretation, when the last term ended.
You, if I understand correctly, interpret the same verbiage as terms starting when a director is elected, regardless of when that is.

You and I have the generous option to agree to disagree.
The OP will have to make their own decision.

Again, This is why attorneys make money (and I am not an attorney).
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
So I emailed the Community Manager to ask why there are only 2 positions open this year

Her reply "Per the By-Laws the board members hold staggered terms. This year there 2 seats open, last year there were 3"

To me that doesn't make any sense. The way I understand it, the only time a 3-year term was allowed was at the very first election. Any one actually elected after that only has a 2-year term. Which means, in my humble opinion, all (5) of their terms expired last year at the two year mark since no one has been elected since the summer of 2020.

Thoughts?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/27/2023 1:31 PM
So I emailed the Community Manager to ask why there are only 2 positions open this year

Her reply "Per the By-Laws the board members hold staggered terms. This year there 2 seats open, last year there were 3"
Your first post said that in 2022, //two// seats were open. What is your evidence for this?

Present this evidence to the manager.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/27/2023 1:31 PM
So I emailed the Community Manager to ask why there are only 2 positions open this year

Her reply "Per the By-Laws the board members hold staggered terms. This year there 2 seats open, last year there were 3"


It's highly possible that those who were serving agreed to serve the full term of the new office and were formally (or informally) appointed to fill the vacant seats.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Ellen - two seats are open in 2023

"PMC just sent out applications for our BOD and indicates there are only (2) positions available."
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
James, in your first post, you said this:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/24/2023 5:26 PM

2020 - elected (5) new Directors
2021 - no election, no terms have expired yet
2022 - the (2) two year terms were up, we had an election but didn't meet quorum, so these two directors stay on for another 2 year term?


Then you posted this:

Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/27/2023 1:31 PM
So I emailed the Community Manager to ask why there are only 2 positions open this year

Her reply "Per the By-Laws the board members hold staggered terms. This year there 2 seats open, last year there were 3"
So you wrote that last year (in 2022), two director seats were up for grabs at the annual election. But the Manager says last year (in 2022) there were three seats open.

Which is it?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/26/2023 12:29 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 03/26/2023 12:14 PM
terms are based on dates, not extenuating circumstances.
Not according to my reading of the bylaws.

yes you are right, now that I read them closely. They are a mess and will continue to be a mess until they are changed so terms are based on dates not various circumstances.

my PM doesn't give a crap about elections, they are supposed to happen every year, but for the last 25 years they have only happened every 3 years or so and sometimes longer. I say sueing board will be the only thing that will resolve this in hopefully time for the election.

vis ta vie
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Ellen - sorry for the confusion

I assumed that when we elected 5 new positions in 2020 that they would give the 3 people with the highest amount of votes a 3-year term and the other two positions the a 2-year term. But, I don't know why yet, but for some reason, it's reversed. (apparently we had 3 positions with a 2-year term and 2-positions with a 3-year term)

I am thinking it is because our current Board President actually had the least amount of votes and somehow he ended up with a 3 year term. So far they won't even say which two board positions are up this year but I am working on getting more info...
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Only the directors elected at the 1st annual meeting had 3 year & 2 year terms in your HOA, James, according to your above citation. Thereafter, your citation says: "The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years."

I don't get why anyone is still talking about 3-year terms at James' HOA.

For anyone who might find it useful Here's what Our recently restated Bylaws say(Board of 7) : "Four (4) Directors will be elected in each even numbered calendar year and three (3) Directors will be elected in each odd numbered calendar year to serve for a term of two (2) years so that the Directors on the Board shall be elected to serve in staggered two (2) year terms."
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/28/2023 11:56 AM
(apparently [in 2020] we [elected] 3 positions with a 2-year term and 2-positions with a 3-year term)
Okay. I figure: Wires get crossed, especially if the pandemic played a role in causing five positions to be open in 2020. As this forum has noted a few times, because of the pandemic, sometimes boards had to do things that were reasonable but had no rigid support in the bylaws. The board should have communicated better. And I hear you that the manager may be up to no good on this point. But it's also possible that misunderstandings played at least some role here, and the board is doing the best it can on this particular issue.

So far, I am not sure challenging the board's decision here to have only two seats open at the 2023 election is wise. There's just too much wiggle room. When challenging any board's practices, I advise that an owner be on solid ground, with no room for argument by any reasonable person's viewpoint.

Probably the best thing you can do is continue to take the pulse of the community and see if you can raise interest in replacing the board in the coming two annual meetings (2023 and 2024). If I may: If people seem apathetic, remember it's also reasonable to interpret this more as their being satisfied with the status quo and not wanting to do any work. You either have the numbers to get the change you want, or you do not. Try to stay real.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
From time to time, I'm still thinking there's more tow owner inaction that "apathy" or "satisfaction" with the status quo. I've caught many glimpses here of Onwrs who fell like they have no way to make changes. This, it seems to me, usually is based on not having a clear understanding of

1. Their governing documents especially the parts of the covenants that spell our their rights (& obligations).

2. Their lack of recognition of the effectiveness of joint, unified action with like-thinking fellow owners. Now, I know there are ways & tricks that abusive boards use to keep owners divided and apart and ignorant. In addition, in our highly individual-oriented society, many cannot see that it takes more than a sincere, educated, active person in an HOA to make change. Change arises from the larger group practicing shared action and maybe a shared vision.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Update

Received an email today from the HOA Attorney. As the law requires, our HOA hires an independent, third party to administer our elections. That company has decided:

"to reopen nominations for 5 Board seats. Three to be filled for the remaining balance of a 2-year term and those seats will be up for election again in 2024, with the two full 2-year terms going to highest vote recipients. This will maintain the staggered Board terms and is the procedure the Assn used in 2020".
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 04/11/2023 2:13 PM
Update

Received an email today from the HOA Attorney. As the law requires, our HOA hires an independent, third party to administer our elections. That company has decided:

"to reopen nominations for 5 Board seats. Three to be filled for the remaining balance of a 2-year term and those seats will be up for election again in 2024, with the two full 2-year terms going to highest vote recipients. This will maintain the staggered Board terms and is the procedure the Assn used in 2020".

Seems proper and fair to me.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
I agree, but there is no 'procedure they used in 2020'. The only time our Bylaws mention staggered terms was at the very first annual meeting, over 20 years ago.

All in all, I am happy with it. We have a chance, now we need to make the most of it
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
What happened in '20 doesn't matter. The below is from your documents, James, and establishes staggered terms:

"The term of office of the three (3) Directors receiving the highest number of votes at the first annual meeting shall be three (3) years and the term of office of the two (2) Directors receiving the next highest number of votes at the first annual meeting shall be two (2) years.

At each annual meeting thereafter, new Directors shall be elected to fill vacancies created...or expiration of the terms of past Directors.

The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years.

The term of office of each Director elected or appointed to fill a vacancy... shall be the balance of the unserved term of his predecessor. "

IMO your a attorney read this doc and gave a good opinion.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Kerry, I agree - and they still haven't come up with any sort of documentation of 'what they did in 2020'

Bottom line - whole board is up for election which I count as a win. (baby steps)
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
This is interesting

Today the HOA Attorney sent me a copy of the 'Annual Meeting Minutes' from 2020. I had asked for the 'methodology' used in that election months ago and I was also assured that all the Board Minutes were available on the HOA Web Portal. Well this document was not

It clearly shows the methodology that was used, which director received which term and the expiration date of those terms:

the five (5) candidates receiving the highest number of votes were elected. The
three (3) candidates receiving the highest number of votes will serve for a term of two (2) years
until the 2022 Annual Meeting. The two (2) candidates receiving the next highest number of votes
will serve for a one (1) year term until the 2021 Annual Meeting.

We have not had a valid election (met quorum) since 2020, so all (5) terms were expired by 2022 - yet the PMC only announced two open positions this year before I challenged that decision and they agreed there should be (5).

Am I the only one thinking something shady was going on or is there some reasonable explanation for deliberately misrepresenting the number of open seats this year?
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
It sounds like misunderstandings, complicated by: the pandemic; not reaching quorum; and bylaws that are not well-written here.

I hope you realize that staggered terms come up here a lot, because records are not kept; because bylaws are poorly written; because no one is keeping track.

They're doing the right thing opening all seats up for election this year. You should be over the moon about this.

I am bothered more by your communicating directly with the HOA attorney.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 04/13/2023 1:39 PM
This is interesting

Today the HOA Attorney sent me a copy of the 'Annual Meeting Minutes' from 2020. I had asked for the 'methodology' used in that election months ago and I was also assured that all the Board Minutes were available on the HOA Web Portal. Well this document was not

It clearly shows the methodology that was used, which director received which term and the expiration date of those terms:

the five (5) candidates receiving the highest number of votes were elected. The
three (3) candidates receiving the highest number of votes will serve for a term of two (2) years
until the 2022 Annual Meeting. The two (2) candidates receiving the next highest number of votes
will serve for a one (1) year term until the 2021 Annual Meeting.

We have not had a valid election (met quorum) since 2020, so all (5) terms were expired by 2022 - yet the PMC only announced two open positions this year before I challenged that decision and they agreed there should be (5).

Am I the only one thinking something shady was going on or is there some reasonable explanation for deliberately misrepresenting the number of open seats this year?

because some PM companies don't give a sh*t about elections if they like the current board. I told my Mgt Company Rep that our Bylaws had staggered terms of 3 years and since this has never been done before all 3 board seats would be up for grabs.

Guess what she freaking does. She sends out an election ballot saying all board seats are up for election and all 3 will last for 3 years.
It should of been 1,2, & 3 year terms. I just told her this was illegal and she did it anyways.

Now this year I guess the board will have to draw straws to see what term is up.

If the Mgt Co. likes the current board: I already know damn well what the Mgt company will say: You just did elections you dont' have to do them for antoher 3 years.
But they probably hate me because I decreased their profits by thousands and always call them out when they dont' do what their contract states.

vis ta vie
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Ellen - the document clearly indicates the date their terms expired. If we don't have an election, per our bylaws, they don't get to serve another full term, they serve until someone is elected to replace them.

Example

DIRECTORS ELECTED TERM:
Director 1 2022
Director 2 2021
Director 3 2022
Director 4 2022
Director 5 2021

So in 2022, there should have been 5 positions open and since we didn't meet quorum, in 2023 there are 5 positions open

Regarding the Attorney, don't look at me - that is the way 'they' want it. In this instance, after they blew off my requests for info, I wrote a demand letter that they follow the bylaws regarding the election procedure, which resulted in them acknowledging that there should have been 5 seats open this year and I had to follow up with him to get the methodology behind it.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 04/13/2023 5:42 PM
Ellen - the document clearly indicates the date their terms expired. If we don't have an election, per our bylaws, they don't get to serve another full term, they serve until someone is elected to replace them.
I do not see the latter in the bylaws you have quoted so far. Can you quote the bylaw that says this?

I think the bylaws are not clear about what happens when quorum is not met and so no election is held.

My personal experience is that the director who has continued serving only because of a lack of quorum should stand for election at the next annual meeting. But this is based only in fairness, not any bylaws.

Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 04/13/2023 5:42 PM
Example
DIRECTORS ELECTED TERM:
Director 1 2022
Director 2 2021
Director 3 2022
Director 4 2022
Director 5 2021

So in 2022, there should have been 5 positions open and since we didn't meet quorum, in 2023 there are 5 positions open

Regarding the Attorney, don't look at me - that is the way 'they' want it. In this instance, after they blew off my requests for info, I wrote a demand letter that they follow the bylaws regarding the election procedure, which resulted in them acknowledging that there should have been 5 seats open this year and I had to follow up with him to get the methodology behind it.
Your first post says you thought only three positions should be open.

Have your thoughts evolved?
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Ellen it's in the first post:

"Each Director shall hold office until his successor has been elected or until his death, resignation, removal or judicial adjudication of mental incompetence".

Regarding not meeting quorum. It's only 20% and they don't really put much emphasis on elections - the application for a board position gets mailed out in a monthly billing statement and that is about it. It's almost like they don't really want to have an election because they want to keep their positions...

Originally, since no one would tell me how they figured out the terms from the 2020 election, I incorrectly *assumed* that they followed the info that was for the first annual election; The top (3) would get 3-year terms and the other (2) would get 2-year terms.

What they actually did, and again - I just found this out today was to give the top (3) 2-year terms and the other (2) received 1-year terms. (I couldn't figure out why they originally announced only (2) positions where open this year and that is why I incorrectly assumed that they had received a 3-year term in 2020)

In reality, all (5) terms expired last year and they basically tried to 'rig the election' by saying only (2) positions were open, which would safeguard their majority

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