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JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
For over 20 years, our Board of Directors usually held regular meetings every month, but several months ago changed to every other month. I could not find any record of the change anywhere - Board minutes, etc. (Our member participation is so low that I don't think most members are even aware of the change). It kind of feels like they did it on the sly...

I found this in our Bylaws:

"Regular meetings may be held at such time and place within the Properties as is determined , from time to time, by a resolution adopted by a majority of a quorum of the Directors; provided, however, that such meetings must be held no less frequently than quarterly."

Are resolutions usually in writing?

Shouldn't this change at the very least been noted in the meeting minutes?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Usually, they are, but this change could have been recorded in the minutes. Minutes are the official record of the board’s actions, so it should have been there. Did you check the minutes from the past year? Did you ask the board the reason for the change – and why this wasn’t announced? If not, why not? And how did you find out?

You say you think this was done in an underhanded way, and you may be right, but you also said the community doesn’t participate much in association issues. That’s how rouge boards start, so if you can’t convince anyone else to at least attend the annual meeting and read regular board meeting minutes, do this yourself so at least you know what’s going on. And offer to help once in a while - you can get even more insight into what the issues are, along with making suggestions the board might not have thought of.

Sometimes even one person paying attention is all that’s needed. When others say they don’t know what the board is doing, that would be a good opportunity to challenge them to attend a meeting and see and hear for themselves.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Sheilah, Yes - I have checked the minutes and there isn't any mention of the change. I actually found out about it because I was going to attend what I thought was the 'monthly' meeting to discuss an issue I was having and there wasn't a meeting that month!

I did ask why the change - but I didn't get an answer from the HOA, which is one of the reasons why I asked for IDR. I want to discuss this and several other issues that have come to my attention since I have been 'paying attention' (as you put it). Actually, I have the minutes going back to 2003 and have read them all and ran them through Adobe OCR so I can search them easier. Not only has this board cut the meetings in half, it looks like they are making decisions through electronic means (email, slack or whatever - I don't know yet) which are also not documented in any manner like they are supposed to be.

The Board President, as I found out after he was elected during Covid was also the president of a small HOA about 50 miles away for over 10 years. During his time there as President, that HOA hired the President's landscaping company to take over the monthly HOA landscaping contract, he brought in a new Property Management Company and later the owner of that PMC became their community manager. As our HOA president, we now have the same Property Management Company (different community manager though) and things, in my opinion, have been going down hill...

That is why I wanted to know if a resolution should be in writing
JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JamesB37 on 03/08/2023 11:49 AM
Sheilah, Yes - I have checked the minutes and there isn't any mention of the change. I actually found out about it because I was going to attend what I thought was the 'monthly' meeting to discuss an issue I was having and there wasn't a meeting that month!

I did ask why the change - but I didn't get an answer from the HOA, which is one of the reasons why I asked for IDR. I want to discuss this and several other issues that have come to my attention since I have been 'paying attention' (as you put it). Actually, I have the minutes going back to 2003 and have read them all and ran them through Adobe OCR so I can search them easier. Not only has this board cut the meetings in half, it looks like they are making decisions through electronic means (email, slack or whatever - I don't know yet) which are also not documented in any manner like they are supposed to be.

The Board President, as I found out after he was elected during Covid was also the president of a small HOA about 50 miles away for over 10 years. During his time there as President, that HOA hired the President's landscaping company to take over the monthly HOA landscaping contract, he brought in a new Property Management Company and later the owner of that PMC became their community manager. As our HOA president, we now have the same Property Management Company (different community manager though) and things, in my opinion, have been going down hill...

That is why I wanted to know if a resolution should be in writing

As Sheila said, a board can approve things by (1) a written consent, signed (usually) by all members of the board, or (2) an oral resolution approved orally at a meeting. However, any entity should keep written records (as Sheila said, "minutes") of all oral resolutions that were passed (which it should keep along with written consents). There may be state-specific requirements for HOAs to do so (on top of corporate law requirements generally).

If a HOA doesn't keep written minutes that reflect resolutions, that's a problem--what is the HOA board trying to hide, and if it claims that something was approved by the "bored", as my HOA lawyer would call it, where's the proof if there is no written record? It's unprofessional and shady not to keep written minutes, at a minimum.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
The only thing I would consider important is that proper notice is given of board meetings. California's standards for notice of board meetings are pretty exacting. Is proper notice being provided?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
With ElleN, what matters is proper notice of the board meetings: 4 days for open meetings, 2 days for executive session in CA. OK, well maybe there should be a written resolution that board meeting now will occur every other month instead of monthly, but it's not a very big deal. I know, that y for you, this just adds to string of abuses that you perceive.

If the Board is making decisions without meetings, how do you know about these decisions if they haven't been documented in meeting minutes?? And as you probably know, in CA assn. boards taking action without a meeting must ONLY be in cases of emergency. (This is different in JohnS111's NY)

(Off topic, but thank you, James for teaching me something about our new interior condo building's hallway ceiling lighting that I wrote about here early this year. You ARE correct, they ARE 3 switches--3500K, the current setting, 3000, & 2700K. With some back-up Googling charts, I was able to convince the Board, with plenty of other Owners' support that I gathered by email, to change the setting to 3000, which our staff engineers can easily do.)
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
It is important, as it is a requirement per the governing docs, specifically the Bylaws. There is a certain format I use, it should be part of the agenda and once approved is signed and attached to the same minutes in which it was approved.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Kerry. "If the Board is making decisions without meetings, how do you know about these decisions if they haven't been documented in meeting minutes??"

Well - one example is the Board Meeting dates being changed as well as some other changes that I have found out about that are not documented in any sort of minutes. As I keep looking into things, I am finding other 'questionable' items

I just received a letter today from the HOA attorney regarding my IDR request. Basically blowing me off, I noted some things I wanted to talk about - why isn't the HOA following our CC&R's regarding alleged violations, the BOD making decisions via electronic transmissions (email, slack, etc), why does it appear that our IDR policy isn't in compliance, etc. The Attorney responded "those are not actually IDR disputes per the Code"

I had also asked for copies of some HOA documents, and the section specifically states:

(e) If the association and the requesting member cannot agree upon a place for inspection and copying pursuant to subdivision (d) or if the requesting member submits a written request directly to the association for copies of specifically identified records, the association may satisfy the requirement to make the association records available for inspection and copying by delivering copies of the specifically identified records to the member by individual delivery pursuant to Section 4040 within the timeframes set forth in subdivision (b) of Section 5210

(h) Requesting parties shall have the option of receiving specifically identified records by electronic transmission or machine-readable storage media as long as those records can be transmitted in a redacted format that does not allow the records to be altered. The cost of duplication shall be limited to the direct cost of producing the copy of a record in that electronic format. The association may deliver specifically identified records by electronic transmission or machine-readable storage media as long as those records can be transmitted in a redacted format that prevents the records from being altered.

He wants me to drive to their office 30 miles away to pick up paper copies when I specifically asked to have the documents emailed to me.

ps - happy so see the LED color temp change worked out
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Thanks Max, I will definitely make a note of that
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Look, as I wrote above, Max, the bylaws should be followed. But in THIS case, and assuming proper notice & agenda is posted for Board meetings, and they do meet at least quarterly, per the Bylaws, that there is no evidence of a vote that has been recorded in the minutes for meeting every other month doesn't suggest an IDR. How does James even know the Board will now meet every other month from now on if it's not in meeting minutes?

I'd really like to see a couple of other examples of why James thinks an IDR is necessary Perhaps a couple of "changes" he's seen in records that haven't been noted in meeting minutes, I guess. Something else is going on here, and I'm too slow to search back in James' earlier emails to see what it is.

I do think James asked about IDR and attorneys, so I don't think he was advised to contact the zhOA attorney, right James?

JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Kerry, I have tried to write out the situation a couple of times but it is just so long and complicated... I will try again with this:

Over 15 years ago we submitted plans for our backyard improvements, which were approved. My adjacent neighbor saw what we were doing and when he submitted his plans shortly after, he also included this one 'feature' that we did. He also received approval from the ARC and work got under way on both lots. Keep in mind these were major and costly improvements - he was building an infinity pool and we had an outdoor kitchen with living area, wood burning fireplace, in-ground spa, etc. etc.

About 4 months later, the HOA contacts us and says there is a problem, the ARC approved something they should not have. Short version, it took about 15 more months, but the HOA ends up settling - everything remains as is, and we sign a legal agreement (but I don't want to get into that) which includes a clause that we can't sue them. I should point out that we live on the perimeter of the community and what we did had virtually no effect on the HOA.

Over 15 years later, new HOA President with this his new PMC thinks they have found the violation of the century and sends us a violation notice. I immediately respond and tell them that we had a legal agreement in place and it was recorded with the County, check with them to get a copy because I didn't have one.

A couple of weeks go by, I ask a neighbor who is in the mortgage business if he can get a copy of my records and at that point I find out that the original PMC screwed up and did not record our agreement. But, they did record my neighbors. (Remember, both situations are exactly the same). I send the HOA a copy of the original ARC application along with a copy of my neighbor's agreement and some additional paperwork I still had, but not good enough for them....

Then one day, out of the blue, the HOA president shows up at our house and wants to inspect our backyard. I was flabbergasted, but I show him around and then the conversation turns to the alleged violation. Pres is trying to tell me that we never received permission to do what we did because there was a condition checked on the ARC form 'do not pour concrete against existing fence'. He literally repeats that several times and then when I object, he doubles down and says if that doesn't mean we didn't receive approval where does it say that we did receive approval? I turn to the second page and show him the diagram that clearly indicates what we wanted to do and that has nothing to due with pouring concrete against a fence.

During this conversation, the Pres brags that he is also the President of another HOA and he has been doing this for over 20 years... It was like he was on some power trip, telling me what he is going to or not going to do. And by the way, most of this caught on my security cams (audio and video) because we are now standing out in my driveway.

After he left, I thought it was pretty strange that someone would want to be the President of two HOA's at the same time. I remembered I still had a blurb he wrote about himself to get elected to our board, and he mentioned the name of the other HOA. I look that HOA up on the internet, that HOA had all their minutes posted in a public area and I started reading - which is how I found out that the other HOA hired the President's landscaping company while he was President, brought in this new PMC, etc.

I asked for IDR, a board member shows up but brings the HOA Attorney. I offer to sign the same agreement I originally signed, just use my neighbors agreement and make some changes. Not good enough - HOA attorney wants to write a new agreement which for reasons I don't want to go into, is not acceptable. I bring up we had permission to do what we did and by the way, statute of limitations is 5 years, but he just blows me off.

A couple of months later, I am still getting threatening letters from this Attorney, basically do what we want you to do or we are going to sue you. I ask to meet with the board, which I do in executive session and again offer to sign the original agreement and show them the original ARC application marked approved. (we signed that agreement once and I thought that the right thing to do would be to sign it again). No real comment from the board.

I get a certified letter two weeks before Christmas - same thing, revert the area back at our expense, sign their new agreement or we will probably end up in court.

I do some more research, and finally realize that the HOA has a procedure they are required to follow when it comes to violations - that need to have a hearing to determine if we are in violation or not. All this time, in the attorney's correspondences he writes that 'we are in violation' and that 'we have encroached', etc etc. It's not up to him, it us up the the Board to make the determination and they have never done so. In fact, it appears they are deliberately circumventing the CC&R's for whatever reason.

I wanted to go to the next board meeting and ask for a hearing and that is when I find out they changed the meeting to every other month. So now I have to wait another month. I appear at the regular meeting in Jan, talk about due process, there was supposed to be a hearing, I ask for the hearing and follow up that night with a written request for a hearing.

A month goes by - never got a response, so I ask for another IDR regarding a hearing. Just today I received a letter from the Attorney:

"In regards to your inquiry regarding a Board hearing on your unapproved XXXXXXXXX, the Association is not currently pursuing the matter due to your refusals to cooperate with the Association's efforts to resolve that issue"

So that's why I am on this forum. And some of you wonder why people hate HOA's? I knew what I was getting into when we purchased our house, and I strongly believe in law and order, but this President, and this board's actions are over the top...

And yes, it is my fault for actually believing the original agreement we signed would be properly recorded with the county - which is why I never asked for a copy.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/08/2023 5:19 PM
Look, as I wrote above, Max, the bylaws should be followed.

Can you point to the section in your post that says the Bylaws must be followed. I sure can't find it!
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I started a management company in 2015 because of the tactics that PMC and attorneys (law firms) would use with YOUR money. The attorney is playing the bully on YOUR dime and that of the others owners in the community. If board members can't resolve issues without calling in the bully, they need to immediately get out of the kitchen. Why are the attorney holding records, they should be in the possession of either the board or the management company.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 03/08/2023 9:41 PM
I started a management company in 2015 because of the tactics that PMC and attorneys (law firms) would use with YOUR money. The attorney is playing the bully on YOUR dime and that of the others owners in the community. If board members can't resolve issues without calling in the bully, they need to immediately get out of the kitchen. Why are the attorney holding records, they should be in the possession of either the board or the management company.



Yup. Time for you to rally together your neighbors and tell them what you've learned, along with your efforts to get answers from the board. Check your documents to see what they say about special homeowner meetings - you may need one to compel the board to come clean. I'm particularly concerned about this president - check your documents to see who selects officers. Usually the homeowners pick the board, who pick officers from among themselves. It would be nice if the rest can grow a backbone and get this guy to straight up or remove him from the position and someone else take over, but if this has been going on for some years, they're as complicit as he is and therefore the entire lot may need to be sacked.

But as I always say, taking these steps will mean other homeowners will need to step up and take over - and one of them may need to be YOU. The current board may not be inclined to mend their ways or step down if there's a vote of no confidence, so be prepared for some drama. You also have the problem of neighbors who aren't very active and either don't realize something could be brewing that they won't like or they just don't care. That means for any of this to work, you're going to have convince enough people to work with you - and THAT requires work.

None of this is being said to dissuade you, but you need to understand what's about to go down - some people will complain long and loudly about their HOA, but when told what it'll take to turn things around, they fold, and so the problem continues. You will need help in doing this and possibly pass the hat for an attorney to talk to the HOA attorney to blast information out of them. I don't know if California has any type of ombudsman program for HOAs - Kerry or Max may be able to speak to that. If there is one, that could be another step to take before you really begin playing hardball. Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Max - not sure what you mean when you wrote "Why are the attorney holding records, they should be in the possession of either the board or the management company." Let me try to clarify

Last summer, the HOA first sent me a certified letter regarding this alleged violation. I started asking our community manager questions via email trying to defend ourselves and to show that we didn't do anything wrong. (I was pretty ignorant of Davis Stirling at that point). How could I get a copy of the minutes, are there any ARC notes from that long ago, etc. It didn't help that our community manager appears to have been the PMC's 'web designer' who was promoted to the community manager position, when our real community manager quit, but in any case I was informed by the HOA Attorney that I was 'harassing' her due to the 'volume and tenor' of my emails. So if I want to contact the HOA for any reason, I need to contact him. So when I requested some documents, I emailed him about it...

Shelia from what I understand, the entire 5 person Board is up for election this summer. I have already obtained a copy of the members list, I have started working on a website and there are several other people in the community who feel the same way as I do. I realize that if we want change, someone has to step up and at this point I am more than willing to do so, because this is not how an HOA should treat it's members/neighbors.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So, James, you've probably learned from Davis-stirling.com that in CA the only records you may review are from this year and the two proceeding years. Minutes, are of course, an exception and should be on file and available to owners forever.

Good for you for gathering support to get rid of a Board that seems out of compliance with your bylaws and statute statutes. I think I've asked you this previously. What do your Bylaws say about directors' terms of office and whether or not there must be staggered terms. It's hard to imagine that Bylaws would state that all five directors are up for reelection at the same time. Please give us an exact citation.

Doe your membership list include emails? If they do not, do request them too, which owners may have now in CA. Say, did you have to drive 30 miles to get the membership list?
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Directors do have staggered terms. We completely replaced the Board of Directors in July of 2000 just by using write in candidates at the last minute. Unfortunately it feels like we jumped out of the frying pan into the fire and these new Directors were not very well vetted. Last summer 2 directors (with 2 year terms) were up for election but we did not meet quorum, so they just stayed on. So this year, from what I can tell at this point (PMC still hasn't answered my direct question) it appears there will be all 5 positions available or at the very least the 3 directors who had 3 year terms. (When I go to our HOA Portal, it indicates all 5 Director's Term ends this summer)

The members list did include emails, and they mailed them to me. The copies were legible, but just barely. A lot of typing was involved getting the info into a workable database.

(excuse any typos - ADOBE OCR is to blame)

Basic Election Procedure.
At the first annual meeting of the Members, and thereafter at each annual meeting of the
Members coinciding with the expiration of a Director's term of office or at which a vacancy on
the Board exists, the Members shall elect new Directors by secret written ballot as provided in
these Bylaws. All positions on the Board shall be filled at the first annual meeting. If an annual
meeting is not held, or the Board is not elected thereat, the Board may be elected at any special
meeting of the Members held for that purpose. Each Director shall hold office until his successor
has been elected or until his death, resignation, removal or judicial adjudication of mental
incompetence. The term of office of the three (3) Directors receiving the highest number of
votes at the first annual meeting shall be three (3) years and the term of office of the two (2)
Directors receiving the next highest number of votes at the first annual meeting shall be two (2)
years. At each annual meeting thereafter, new Directors shall be elected to fill vacancies created
by the death, resignation, removal, judicial adjudication of mental incompetence or expiration of
the terms of past Directors. The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created
by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years. The
term of office of each Director elected or appointed to fill a vacancy created by the resignation,
death or removal of his predecessor shall be the balance of the unserved term of his predecessor.
Any person serving as a Director may be reelected, and there is no limit on the number of terms
which he may serve. Cumulative voting must be used in the election of Directors for any
election in which more than two (2) Directors are to be selected, subject only to the following
procedural requirements: A Member may cumulate his votes for any candidate for the Board if
the candidate's name has been placed in nomination prior to the voting and if such Member, or
any other Member, has given notice at the meeting prior to the voting of such Member' s
intention to cumulate votes. If a Member cumulates his votes, such Member may cast a number
of v otes equal to the Member' s share of the voting power as set forth in the Master D eclaration,
multiplied by the number of Directors to be elected.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
This is why we need to get rid of lawyers.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
It's clear that the intention of the Bylaws is for staggered terms. But your HOA did not maintain that. We had a similar situation several years ago, and our HOA attorney advised us to return to staggered term by electing some directors to 2 years and one to 1 year in the next election. Your HOA attorney may advise the same: the top 2 vote getters serve 2 years, the last 2 serve one year. But note director terms are for 2 years since the first election.

James' Bylaws: "The term of office of the three (3) Directors receiving the highest number of
votes at the first annual meeting shall be three (3) years and the term of office of the two (2)
Directors receiving the next highest number of votes at the first annual meeting shall be two (2)
years. At each annual meeting thereafter, new Directors shall be elected to fill vacancies created
by the death, resignation, removal, judicial adjudication of mental incompetence or expiration of
the terms of past Directors. The term of office of each Director elected to fill a vacancy created
by the expiration of the term of office of the respective past Director shall be two (2) years."

Given CA's annoying statutes a bout election rules, which I think you've said your HOA has, you already should have some info about the election already--the date, for instance.
JamesB37 (California)
Posts: 351
Posted:
Nothing about any dates so far. I was concerned because I wanted to make sure they are following the 'election timeline calculator' on the Davis-Stirling website:

https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOA-Election-Timeline-Calculator

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Need to correct my above error. Based on James' Bylaws, our attorney would suggest that at the next election the 3 directors with the most votes serve for two years, and the bottom two serve for one year.

Yes, very cool election timeline calculator. I guess no date has been set for your annual meeting and election?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 03/09/2023 6:50 PM
Need to correct my above error. Based on James' Bylaws, our attorney would suggest that at the next election the 3 directors with the most votes serve for two years, and the bottom two serve for one year.

Yes, very cool election timeline calculator. I guess no date has been set for your annual meeting and election?

We did this as a result on no Annual Meeting at the height of Covid. We had to elect an entire new (5 members) BOD and in order to keep staggered terms the top three vote getters got the usual two year term and the lowest two got one year terms.

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