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VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Can a BOD on its own without the entire owners community (a quorum) decide to take a large bank loan to repair TH roofs, for example ?

The reserve fund can cover perhaps only 5% of the total repair bill, hence the idea of taking a loan has emerged. If one has to rely on the TH reserve replenishment, the process will take about 20 years.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Probably - read your documents.

As Melissa often states HOAs are only funded by the owners for the owners. That's why you typically have an operations fund to cover monthly expenses and a reserve fund that pays for major repairs and replacements of common area components like townhouse roofs (I also live in a townhouse community.

If there isn't enough money in the reserve fund to cover those types of repairs and the work needs to be done a lot sooner rather than later, the remaining choices are special assessments or loans. Depending on how rachet the association finances are, you may need loans, a special assessment (or two or three) AND major hikes to regular assessments to pay for it all. And those reserves also have to cover future components like siding or sidewalks.

You may not be happy with your board, but it may be they're taking this step because the reserves are a mess and homeowners would never approve special assessments and go ballistic at assessment increases because they're already "too high." Where do you fall in this regard? When was the last time your community had a reserve study? They should be done at least every five years - if it's been longer than that, you're past due. Does the budget follow the reserve study recommendations? If not, why not? Ask your board.

And what do you and your neighbors propose to do about the roofs if they are in major need of repair or replacement?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Oh, and the reason I said probably is because the documents (your bylaws and CCRs) usually give the board the authority to obtain loans on the association's behalf, so pull out your documents and read them. Sometimes, there are provisions saying a certain percentage of homeowners have to agree to loans that exceed a certain amount or any type of loan. Similar to special assessments or amendments to the documents.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 03/04/2023 5:19 PM
Probably - read your documents.

Where do you fall in this regard? When was the last time your community had a reserve study? They should be done at least every five years - if it's been longer than that, you're past due. Does the budget follow the reserve study recommendations? If not, why not? Ask your board.


We are a mixed TH/SFH community.

I am on the board, but I am rather impartial in this regard because the problem affects only the TH owners and I am a SFH owner who's trying to contribute something meaningful to the problem resolution.

Let's say we take a loan of roughly $6M. The loan has to be repaid at a rate of about $66K per month for the next 10 years at 6% interest. That would mean roughly $400+ from each TH owner for the next 10 years. The reserve study severely underestimated the problem (was done two years ago, before my time).

However, my question was whether the BOD can make that decision on its own, without the TH owners vote. Also, would the SFH owners be somehow part of collateral/liens. I could not find specifics in the bylaws.
VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Looks like membership vote is not required in our case:

"Condo associations and HOAs typically have all the rights and powers of not for profit corporations, unless specific rights are revoked or amended in the association documents. Florida Statute 617.0302(7) states that not for profit corporations can:

“Make contracts and guaranties, incur liabilities, borrow money at such rates of interest as the corporation may determine, issue its notes, bonds, and other obligations, and secure its obligations by mortgage and pledge of all or any of its property, franchises, or income."

https://www.daniafernandez.com/2021/04/20/can-a-condo-association-borrow-money-without-a-membership-vote/
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Do you have the same assessment for everyone? I would think not because detached homes have shared walls (and roofs). That may answer the first question, but why is the board not giving the townhouse residents a heads up, because this will certainly raise their assessments. If all of you live in detached homes, that may explain it (it doesn't affect me so....which isn't a good attitude to take on the issue. I'm glad you're trying to come up with a solution.)

The roofs have to be repaired, so y'all may as well have a special meeting with the townhouse residents and let them know what's heading in their direction. They may surprise you and agree to this or a special assessment. And if everyone pays the same rate, the detached homeowners need to be invited because their assessments will also increase.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
No, we do not have the same assessment. SFH are responsible for their capital repairs individually.

SFH dues consist of the landscaping portion and the common operating/common area reserve fund expenses.
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859
Posted:
I was curious about a loan from our city. The Housing Rehabilitation Authority would be able to loan us $500,000 for ten years at 5%. There would have to a vote of the owners and the repayment plan would be on the unit. It the owner sells his unit, then the new owner would be responsible for the payments. We have not gone down this path since we have enough money in our Replacement Reserve.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
VC, is there an emergency as defined in FS 252.34(4)? Has a state of emergency been declared pursuant to FS 252.36 in the area encompassed by the association? If so, then FS 720.316 (1) (k) says that, the board has the power to take loans without owner approval. Read the fine print here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/0720.html

I recommend getting comfortable with identifying keywords and searching the applicable statutes.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Without knowing the details of your finances, I'll just say that it may make sense to accelerate roofing repairs/replacements.

The roofs may be wearing out at a faster rate due to more extreme weather events. Or maybe the original roofs were lower quality, so the reserve studies overestimated their remaining useful life (which you mentioned). If operating expenses due to constant repairs are rising, that argues for early replacement. The board may also believe that it would be cheaper overall to replace now - this could easily be the case due to inflation, availability of materials, building code changes, lower per-unit pricing on large projects, etc. Sometimes governments provide financial incentives to encourage more energy-efficient development, and these incentives may be time-dependent.

Opinion Alert! There is a reason I refer to laws allowing homeowners to vote down assessments as "licenses to commit financial suicide" (see Surfside condo collapse). In general the board will know more about the state of the association's finances than homeowners will. In addition, the board has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the association and can be held accountable if they don't. Homeowners are free to act in their own self interest, even if that self-interest is contrary to the well-being of the rest of the community. Homeowners also cannot be held accountable for this. It's like going into business with a bunch of strangers, some of whom will be working against the business's interests, and the rest of the owners can't do anything about it. Doesn't sound like a business that's on solid footing, does it?

VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/05/2023 5:47 AM
VC, is there an emergency as defined in FS 252.34(4)? Has a state of emergency been declared pursuant to FS 252.36 in the area encompassed by the association? If so, then FS 720.316 (1) (k) says that, the board has the power to take loans without owner approval. Read the fine print here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0720/0720.html

I recommend getting comfortable with identifying keywords and searching the applicable statutes.

Thank you, Ellen. I already saw FS 720.316 (1) (k).

No, no state of emergency has been declared. Some TH roofs (50% ?) are leaking and there's an opinion that the cause of leaks is a construction defect (the roofs are about 15 yo on average), so the idea is to replace wholesale for which we do not have money in the TH reserve fund. I need to dig deeper into engineering studies that were made before my time and understand why limited repairs are not possible, but the current opinion is that a replacement would be cheaper than repairs.
VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/05/2023 5:51 AM
Without knowing the details of your finances, I'll just say that it may make sense to accelerate roofing repairs/replacements.

I agree in principle, but there's the money issue that some/majority of TH owners may not be happy with. As I wrote, getting a 10 year loan would double TH dues for 10 years.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
VC, just saying: I consider leaks an emergency. Mold is often an aftermath of leaks. Mold eradication is incredibly expensive.

VC, how can you be sure the leaking is not a consequence of the recent hurricanes?

In Florida, I am not sure owners would be on good ground to contest this loan as a violation of FS 720.316.

What the governing documents (bylaws and declaration) say about loans, and whether owners' approval is required, may be more important here.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Like SheliaH, I too would like to know why special assessments are not being considered. I do not see anything in the statute prohibiting this possibility. What do the Declaration and bylaws say about the board imposing a special assessment?

Mostly for Floridians, my sense is too many are missing the forest for the trees. I think it's undeniable that anyone wanting to live in Florida will have to pay much more than in previous years. It's like reserve studies are almost useless. Condos and HOAs are rebuilding so often, and suffering weakened infrastructure, that it is becoming impossible to plan for expenses.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By VC on 03/05/2023 9:58 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 03/05/2023 5:51 AM
Without knowing the details of your finances, I'll just say that it may make sense to accelerate roofing repairs/replacements.


I agree in principle, but there's the money issue that some/majority of TH owners may not be happy with. As I wrote, getting a 10 year loan would double TH dues for 10 years.

I understand, and I can see the TH owners' point. The problem I see with all community associations is that owners have a vested interest in making short-term decisions at the expense of longer-term efficiencies. The requirements around reserve funding help counteract this, but not entirely. If I were a townhome owner, I'd be more willing to bite the bullet if there were some reason to take out the loan other than saving money in the long run. For example, if you're having to make more repairs that are driving up operating costs, that may get their attention - especially if you point out that you're basically throwing the money away since the roofs will be replaced in x years. Ditto programs that provide support for more efficient construction that could benefit everyone short term. In other words, they'll need something that benefits them personally.

FWIW, we had a board president who thought we shouldn't have to put aside money for roofing replacement because that's not her problem. Pointing out that state law requires us to do so was not persuasive. So be thankful it's only the owners you're up against. :-)
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/05/2023 10:04 AM
Mold eradication is incredibly expensive. ... snip...

Not to mention a health risk and a sizable pain in the keister while it's going on. Ask me how I know this...
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
If these townhouses are part of a Condo Association, you should declare an emergency and do a special assessment. Florida state law says all condo policies must have assessment coverage with a no larger than a $200 deductible up to a limit (usually $2000). For example, the condo we own had a $1600 special assessment this year for excess isurance costs. If the condo association had been smart, they would have said the assessment was for hurricane cleanup instead of insurance premiums. They did pay a huge amount for hurricane cleanup and it would have been a legitimate way for the insurance to pay. Now I have to pay out of pocket - otherwise my insurance would have paid with no deductible up to $2000.

The condos sub-associations in my community have been adding anything and everything, including new landscaping, to their "hurricane" expenses before figuring their special assessments, because they know the most each unit will have to pay is $200.

I do have that coverage on my home, but the deductible is $4000, so it would have to be a huge special assessment before they pay.

My point is a special assessment might be a much better route than a bank loan in this case.

VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/05/2023 10:04 AM

What the governing documents (bylaws and declaration) say about loans, and whether owners' approval is required, may be more important here.

There is not a word about loans in the bylaws and CC&Rs.
VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 03/05/2023 10:11 AM
Like SheliaH, I too would like to know why special assessments are not being considered. I do not see anything in the statute prohibiting this possibility. What do the Declaration and bylaws say about the board imposing a special assessment?
.

We can do a special assessment all right. I am not sure why President is considering a loan option. Perhaps, because the amount of money each TH owner will have to come up with is about $45K.

Ellen, Cathy, Lori thank you all for your valuable input !
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
However this ends, the board still needs to take another look at the reserve study. Yours may be out of date or the board didn't follow the recommendations and that needs to change immediately so you can avoid similar issues in the future. Or at least reduce the odds of it happening. Proper funding will require assessment increases, so everyone (townhouse and detached homes) should get used to it. Small increases over the years is better than a $45k special assessment. Not convinced? Remember Surfside.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I should have read the thread from the beginning more closely - sorry I didn't realize the amount per TH was so high for a special assessment.

Here's another point - the downside of a special assessment is that it can make the unit harder to sell, because if the special assessment is done in installments, the new owner usually takes on the debt of the special assessment. This was the case in several communities when we were looking to buy a condo and it made it much less attractive to buy compared to other properties. Same thing when each unit has a debt from a refurbished or rebuilt clubhouse, golf course, etc.

Our HOA documents do provide that the board can get a loan without member approval up to a certain amount (in our case it's a percentage of our budget, not a fixed amount). We recently did this by getting a $500k line of credit for hurricane repair costs. Luckily, we haven't had to use it, but it's there in case we do. I suspect your board does have the right to do this.

If it were a smaller amount per unit a special assessment is the better way to go in my opinion. Once and done. But with such a large amount, I would say borrowing the money is the better option and paying it over time in increased fees is the better choice.

Do you know if they have an engineering study (not just a roofer's opinion) about the roof life? I would be suspect that this is something that came up suddenly unless it's weather-related damage or your reserve study was just wrong. Or your board kept the fees artificially low because otherwise it would be unattractive to new owners.

The condo sub-associations in our community have always kept their condo fees too low to cover real costs. They all had to have new roofs due to damage in the last big hurricane (Irma not Ian) but didn't have enough money for the insurance deductibles and had to borrow. That's the way they do business. We do not run our HOA in a similar way.
VC (Florida(FS 720))
Posts: 118
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LoriM15 on 03/06/2023 6:42 AM

Do you know if they have an engineering study (not just a roofer's opinion) about the roof life? I would be suspect that this is something that came up suddenly unless it's weather-related damage or your reserve study was just wrong. Or your board kept the fees artificially low because otherwise it would be unattractive to new owners.


It's a messy story. Some TH roofs started leaking several years (4-6) after they had been built in about 2005 -- according to a recent engineering study, a construction defect, unrelated to hurricane possible damage). There has been a series of missteps made by the previous boards in this regard (missed warranty claims/insurance etc, a lawsuit whose outcome is uncertain), but I do not wish to play the blame game as it is unproductive. The lawsuit may or may not result in some favorable outcome, but meanwhile something needs to be done about the leaking roofs. Interestingly, the SFH are affected to a much lesser degree, some did have leaks that were repaired, but the majority seems ok.

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