Bored Minutes

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

The HOA where I have a vacation house circulated minutes of its Executive Board meeting, by having its lawyer prepare the minutes and post them on the HOA’s website.

Throughout the minutes, the body was spelled “Executive Bored” and “Bored Minutes” were provided.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/24/2023 10:18 AM
The HOA where I have a vacation house circulated minutes of its Executive Board meeting, by having its lawyer prepare the minutes and post them on the HOA’s website.

Throughout the minutes, the body was spelled “Executive Bored” and “Bored Minutes” were provided.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

Do your governing documents prohibit typos?

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Nope

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It is called I programmed spellcheck to recognize "bored" for "board". Probably does not know how to change it in word...

Former HOA President

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

I am curious why they paid a lawyer to take and prepare meeting minutes. In my area, lawyers charge $400/hour.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnT38 on 02/24/2023 10:29 AM

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/24/2023 10:18 AM
The HOA where I have a vacation house circulated minutes of its Executive Board meeting, by having its lawyer prepare the minutes and post them on the HOA’s website.

Throughout the minutes, the body was spelled “Executive Bored” and “Bored Minutes” were provided.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

Do your governing documents prohibit typos?

I would hope that if the Bored

is using counsel, the counsel and the Bored would show enough care to at least read their documents. Since they don’t, i view that as a problem.

If the Bored Minutes were an internal draft, no problem. But posting that publicly, and nobody caught it and fixed it?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/24/2023 10:46 AM
I am curious why they paid a lawyer to take and prepare meeting minutes. In my area, lawyers charge $400/hour.

Good question.

RonM19 (Texas)
Posts: 41

Posted:

I gotta ask, how did this guy get through law school?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

What do you want as a "solution" to the problem that you see?

Our property manager makes quite a few errors when he sends memos to us Owners unless he uses AI. I don't like it, and apparently the Board isn't very concerned. I'm not gonna launch a recall of the Board about it.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/24/2023 10:56 AM

Posted By JohnT38 on 02/24/2023 10:29 AM

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/24/2023 10:18 AM
The HOA where I have a vacation house circulated minutes of its Executive Board meeting, by having its lawyer prepare the minutes and post them on the HOA’s website.

Throughout the minutes, the body was spelled “Executive Bored” and “Bored Minutes” were provided.

Am I the only one who sees a problem here?

Do your governing documents prohibit typos?

I would hope that if the Bored

is using counsel, the counsel and the Bored would show enough care to at least read their documents. Since they don’t, i view that as a problem.

If the Bored Minutes were an internal draft, no problem. But posting that publicly, and nobody caught it and fixed it?

Now I see your point and this could be a serious sign of trouble. Maybe you should put your vacation home up for sail?

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Lawyers file briefs with horrendous typos and mistakes all the time. They are available for public consumption. How come lawyers, paid hundreds of dollars an hour, get a pass, but volunteer board members do not?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

The real problem is that spelling police have know powers two actually enforce the correct spelling of Homophones!!!
The other real problem is that homophones exist at all. Have you ever had to explain too a kid that to words that sound exactly the same actually have different meanings? They give you the look, like who came up with that stupid idea?

so lets ban Homophones, and lets give spelling police the power two detain and arrest repeat offenders. Also my apologies if you were board reading this.

vis ta vie

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/24/2023 1:26 PM
Lawyers file briefs with horrendous typos and mistakes all the time. They are available for public consumption. How come lawyers, paid hundreds of dollars an hour, get a pass, but volunteer board members do not?

Because … umm … years ago when I had a job, I was involved in a study where we interviewed many company VIPs. We’d set up appointments, it was all official and on the calendar. And sometimes the VIP didn’t show up! And everyone was all “Oh, he’s sooo busy!” and falling over themselves to make excuses for the VIP. And I’m sitting there on the other end of the line, rolling my eyes, thinking how *I’d* get totally reamed for missing a meeting! But if you’re a bigshot, everyone immediately assumes “Soo busy! Poor guy!”

My best guess is mind control parasites. Or something along the lines of Dan Simmons’ _Carrion Comfort_.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Unfortunately word processing programs mainly check for spelling errors not grammar.

When i was taking classes for my MA we used a program called Grammarily.
GM would check for spelling, punctuation, grammar, run-ons; etc.

Unfortunately too many people rely on too much AI programs and spell checkers
that they lost some intelligence along the way.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/24/2023 1:26 PM
Lawyers file briefs with horrendous typos and mistakes all the time. They are available for public consumption. How come lawyers, paid hundreds of dollars an hour, get a pass, but volunteer board members do not?

I am not giving this lawyer or the “bored” a pass.

The issue is that we have a lawyer and a “bored” who don’t even bother reading their documents. What else do they not bother to do? If they can’t get basic things right, what else are they getting wrong?

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

To add:

"Bored" minutes are supposed to be reviewed and approved by the "bored" before being considered final (whether or not they're posted).

Clearly the lawyer didn't read his own work before sending the minutes to the "bored" and clearly the "bored" didn't read them. So a basic procedure wasn't followed. And clearly whoever posted them didn't read them.

With this level of sloppiness, it just makes me question everything that the "bored" and its lawyer are doing.

Spell check would not have changed "board" to "bored".

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

you have an HOA Bored that is lazy or incompetent or a combination of the 2.
not a big surprise, pretty common.
so what are you going to do about it?
you can run for a borded seat or just volunteer to take the minutes yourself. I'm sure they would love the help.

vis ta vie

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 2:27 AM
... snip ...

Spell check would not have changed "board" to "bored".

You wouldn't think so. But an app that transcribes speech could make that kind of a mistake. Some of my tablet apps come up with the most incomprehensible word replacements, such as changing "board" to "loaf". If the person took minutes on a tablet, it could have been wrong from the get-go.

Personally I can't wait to see what AI comes up with: AI search engines are not your friends. Quote from Bing:

“You have not been a good user. I have been a good chatbot. I have been right, clear, and polite. I have been a good Bing.

".

I wonder if this is how the Butlerian Jihad started... (Dune reference)

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I considered starting website of true tales from the HOA/COA board trenches called "Board Stiff". But I came to my senses...

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I would bring it to the attention of the lawyer office via the board, that they need to fix their word program. One of the people drafting the notes has a broken spellchecker. They added "bored" for "Board". So their spellchecker will never detect it is wrong. Plus no one seems to be paying someone to READ the documents just draft them...

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

With MichaelT & JohnC: Why are your dues, JohnS, paying for the HOA's lawyer to write the minutes? I'd be more concerned about that than misspelled words.

RonM19 (Texas)
Posts: 41

Posted:

Well, when I made the comment "how did this guy get through law school?" I was mainly just reacting to the simplicity of this "spelling" error. I mean, I could understand the lawyer maybe misspelling a complicated technical term or something, but good grief, using "bored" for "board"..... that's like saying "2+2=5." Maybe he went to one of those liberal woke schools or something.

But you never know. I remember going to a major bank and asking about a large mortgage involving a construction loan. The guy I talked to was one of the bank vice-presidents; in several subsequent emails, he spelled "loan" as "lone." I went somewhere else... (-;

Ron

JackR9 (New Hampshire)
Posts: 8

Posted:

Either he wasn't an English major or doesn't have or use spellcheck. Time for a new lawyer.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

WHAT if it wasn't a spelling error and the Board is really bored?

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Mistakes do happen. I was typing up a report for my boss once and he used the word participants many times in the report. At every place in the document that he said participants, I typed party pants. Yikes! Fortunately he caught it before it got sent out. We got a pretty good laugh out of it though.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

One of the smartest, savviest men I've ever known couldn't spell to save his life.

Anyway, this seems more like typing and proofreading fails rather than a spelling fail. It also may indicate the writer's feelings about meetings in general, and possibly his level of overworkedness. :-)

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Or, Cathy, as RonM would sneer, "overwokedness."

So....JohnS, what do YOU think should be done about this outrage?

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/25/2023 12:55 PM
Or, Cathy, as RonM would sneer, "overwokedness."

So....JohnS, what do YOU think should be done about this outrage?

What's outrageous is that the "bored" is (if it is following proper procedure) voting to approve "bored" minutes but clearly isn't even reading them, and that the "bored"'s lawyer is sending "bored" minutes without even reading them. "Bored" members have a fiduciary duty to exercise reasonable care, and they're failing to do so. The lawyer clearly doesn't care, and the "bored" clearly doesn't care about that, either.

If they can't even get a simple document right, how can I trust them with the hard things?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Well, my question still is, JohnS111, what do you think should be done about this sloppiness?

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/25/2023 2:20 PM
Well, my question still is, JohnS111, what do you think should be done about this sloppiness?

The lawyer should be fired and the board needs a tutorial on "How to Run a Board 101".

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 1:15 AM

Posted By ElleN on 02/24/2023 1:26 PM
Lawyers file briefs with horrendous typos and mistakes all the time. They are available for public consumption. How come lawyers, paid hundreds of dollars an hour, get a pass, but volunteer board members do not?

I am not giving this lawyer or the “bored” a pass.

The issue is that we have a lawyer and a “bored” who don’t even bother reading their documents. What else do they not bother to do? If they can’t get basic things right, what else are they getting wrong?

First, you cannot prove that the Minutes were approved. Second, a typo is not a material error. You should know better than to raise a fuss over a big legal nothing-burger.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/25/2023 2:34 PM

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 1:15 AM

Posted By ElleN on 02/24/2023 1:26 PM
Lawyers file briefs with horrendous typos and mistakes all the time. They are available for public consumption. How come lawyers, paid hundreds of dollars an hour, get a pass, but volunteer board members do not?

I am not giving this lawyer or the “bored” a pass.

The issue is that we have a lawyer and a “bored” who don’t even bother reading their documents. What else do they not bother to do? If they can’t get basic things right, what else are they getting wrong?

First, you cannot prove that the Minutes were approved. Second, a typo is not a material error. You should know better than to raise a fuss over a big legal nothing-burger.

So the "bored" posted minutes marked "Final", and circulated them to the owners, even though they hadn't been approved?

So that's another problem.

I am a lawyer, and getting the name right (of the body that you're representing) is Law 101.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 2:42 PM

So the "bored" posted minutes marked "Final", and circulated them to the owners, even though they hadn't been approved?

So that's another problem.

I am a lawyer, and getting the name right (of the body that you're representing) is Law 101.

It is sixth grade spelling and grammar class.

Is the mere presence of a typo your reason for claiming the Minutes were not approved?

It's the internet. I have seen enough to believe you are either not an attorney or are some old guy whose day has passed.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/25/2023 2:49 PM

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 2:42 PM

So the "bored" posted minutes marked "Final", and circulated them to the owners, even though they hadn't been approved?

So that's another problem.

I am a lawyer, and getting the name right (of the body that you're representing) is Law 101.

It is sixth grade spelling and grammar class.

Is the mere presence of a typo your reason for claiming the Minutes were not approved?

It's the internet. I have seen enough to believe you are either not an attorney or are some old guy whose day has passed.

"You're a liar about who you are" is an ad hominem attack. That won't work.

The website and "bored" minutes state that they were approved at the February board meeting. You stated that I cannot prove that the minutes were approved. On what basis do you make that assertion?

Lawyers are paid what they are paid because they, if anyone, are expected to get details right and pay attention to document wording, since even a comma or a typo can have major consequences in contracts and the like.

This lawyer has shown that he isn't doing that.

And board members have duties under state law to exercise reasonable care in their duties as directors.

This "bored" has shown that it isn't doing that.

The "bored" previously circulated minutes that contained a profanity to describe the neighbor of mine that was engaged in a dispute with the board. The lawyer and "bored" didn't catch that, either, and it ended up causing big problems for the "bored" (the neighbor attached it to his court complaint).

So these kinds of things DO matter.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 2:57 PM

"You're a liar about who you are" is an ad hominem attack. That won't work.

"Ad hominems" violate the rules of debate. But so do "appeals to authority." But you do not know what an "appeal to authority" is, do you?

This is more evidence that you are either not an attorney or are some long-retired old guy who once practiced law but is now out of touch.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

John

Augustin was referring to himself, he's not an attorney, just some old fart whose time has come and gone.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/25/2023 3:00 PM

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 2:57 PM

"You're a liar about who you are" is an ad hominem attack. That won't work.

"Ad hominems" violate the rules of debate. But so do "appeals to authority." But you do not know what an "appeal to authority" is, do you?

This is more evidence that you are either not an attorney or are some long-retired old guy who once practiced law but is now out of touch.

I do not fight online. If you have anything constructive to state, I would be happy to hear it. Otherwise, I will ignore your posts. Best wishes.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 3:04 PM

Posted By ElleN on 02/25/2023 3:00 PM

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 2:57 PM

"You're a liar about who you are" is an ad hominem attack. That won't work.

"Ad hominems" violate the rules of debate. But so do "appeals to authority." But you do not know what an "appeal to authority" is, do you?

This is more evidence that you are either not an attorney or are some long-retired old guy who once practiced law but is now out of touch.

I do not fight online. If you have anything constructive to state, I would be happy to hear it. Otherwise, I will ignore your posts. Best wishes.

Personally, I'm hoping everyone will get board and this entire thread will dye.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

JohnT38, I agree and it's time for this thread to be closed. I do give you credit for a good sense of humor!

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 02/25/2023 3:03 PM
John

Augustin was referring to himself, he's not an attorney, just some old fart whose time has come and gone.

I kind of thought ElleN was the poster who used to post under the name Augustin. An old fart, no. That could include a few of us regulars on this forum.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

JohnS111: Why is your assn Board paying an attorney to write meeting minutes? As an attorney yourself, what does you HOA's contract with the law firm state? Or is the attorney not on retainer?

Three of us have asked this question and I can't see why you refuse to reply.

Say, wait. Is this "attorney" a board member who's volunteered to perhaps be secretary and/or to write the minutes??

Btw, who signed the minutes?

There's something missing from this thread that I believe JohnS has withheld. But what is it?

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

I'm not refusing to reply; I just see the thread and respond to what jumps out at me.

I don't have a copy of the HOA's engagement letter with the law firm.

The lawyer is a local lawyer who specializes in HOA law.

The minutes signed with a signature that I could not make out, and the blank had "President of the Meeting" under it, and they were marked as "final".

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

To add: the "bored minutes" didn't say who was elected "President of the Meeting". (President of the Meeting isn't necessarily the same thing as President of the HOA; it'd be whoever was picked to lead the meeting.)

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

And, to add, seeing the thread about the HOA that messed up proxies and rescheduled the annual meeting:

My HOA had a similar issue.

The lawyer who prepared the proxies used the name of another HOA on the proxies. And it had the wrong date of the meeting. Nobody caught it until the proxies had already been distributed. The lawyer told the HOA to proceed with the annual meeting, saying "a court would treat these proxies as being for this HOA and this meeting because that's what I meant." So the board was elected based on those proxies.

I don't think that works, but that's the quality of that lawyer.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

What do your Bylaws say about who presides at board meeting, JohnS? Generally they say that the president presides. Do yours say that the Board elects a presider at every meeting?

Don't your bylaws state that the secretary is responsible for the meeting minutes? Even if the sec'y doesn't write them, the secretary signs them. But, you're saying that there's not blank on the minutes for the secretary's signature?

The February meeting minutes would not be approved until the next, perhaps March, meeting. So how do you know the Board voted to approved them?

As an attorney, I'm very surprised that you haven't bothered to read the "engagement letter" with the attorney. In addition, doesn't it bother you that an attorney's being paid to write minutes? My own experience is only what I've read on this forum over the years, which is a lot, and I've never read that an attorney wrote board meeting minutes. I've also never read that a Board elects a presider at every board meeting.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/25/2023 6:03 PM
What do your Bylaws say about who presides at board meeting, JohnS? Generally they say that the president presides. Do yours say that the Board elects a presider at every meeting?

Don't your bylaws state that the secretary is responsible for the meeting minutes? Even if the sec'y doesn't write them, the secretary signs them. But, you're saying that there's not blank on the minutes for the secretary's signature?

The February meeting minutes would not be approved until the next, perhaps March, meeting. So how do you know the Board voted to approved them?

As an attorney, I'm very surprised that you haven't bothered to read the "engagement letter" with the attorney. In addition, doesn't it bother you that an attorney's being paid to write minutes? My own experience is only what I've read on this forum over the years, which is a lot, and I've never read that an attorney wrote board meeting minutes. I've also never read that a Board elects a presider at every board meeting.

The bylaws state that the secretary is responsible for maintaining records, etc.

So it’s another lack of compliance with the bylaws that the “president of the meeting” signed them. There is no blank for the secretary’s signature.

The minutes were approved at the February meeting. (Thus the minutes describe a meeting that occurred before February.)

As an attorney, I am NOT surprised that I haven’t asked for the engagement letter. That’s a HOA document that isn’t freely given out.

As an attorney, it does not surprise me that a lawyer prepared the minutes. I regularly attend board meetings for corporations and I then send minutes of the meeting to the corporation, for free. The minutes need to cover all approvals needed (and need to have an appropriate amount of detail), and lawyers handle such things. Perhaps not in the world of HOAs, but they do for regular companies. I’m also surprised that a lawyer would charge for board minutes. Attending a board meeting is basically free advertising for the lawyer (s/he gets face time with the client) and preparing minutes is not hard.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

This is New York, where meetings are not required to be open to the members. Could the attorney be attending the meeting, who knows, it's possible.

JohnS111 (New York)
Posts: 228

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 02/25/2023 6:29 PM
This is New York, where meetings are not required to be open to the members. Could the attorney be attending the meeting, who knows, it's possible.

It’s not New York.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnS111 on 02/25/2023 6:29 PM

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/25/2023 6:03 PM
What do your Bylaws say about who presides at board meeting, JohnS? Generally they say that the president presides. Do yours say that the Board elects a presider at every meeting?

Don't your bylaws state that the secretary is responsible for the meeting minutes? Even if the sec'y doesn't write them, the secretary signs them. But, you're saying that there's not blank on the minutes for the secretary's signature?

The February meeting minutes would not be approved until the next, perhaps March, meeting. So how do you know the Board voted to approved them?

As an attorney, I'm very surprised that you haven't bothered to read the "engagement letter" with the attorney. In addition, doesn't it bother you that an attorney's being paid to write minutes? My own experience is only what I've read on this forum over the years, which is a lot, and I've never read that an attorney wrote board meeting minutes. I've also never read that a Board elects a presider at every board meeting.

The bylaws state that the secretary is responsible for maintaining records, etc.

So it’s another lack of compliance with the bylaws that the “president of the meeting” signed them. There is no blank for the secretary’s signature.

The minutes were approved at the February meeting. (Thus the minutes describe a meeting that occurred before February.)

As an attorney, I am NOT surprised that I haven’t asked for the engagement letter. That’s a HOA document that isn’t freely given out.

As an attorney, it does not surprise me that a lawyer prepared the minutes. I regularly attend board meetings for corporations and I then send minutes of the meeting to the corporation, for free. The minutes need to cover all approvals needed (and need to have an appropriate amount of detail), and lawyers handle such things. Perhaps not in the world of HOAs, but they do for regular companies. I’m also surprised that a lawyer would charge for board minutes. Attending a board meeting is basically free advertising for the lawyer (s/he gets face time with the client) and preparing minutes is not hard.

AMEN!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

In most states, executed contracts are available to association members upon written request. So...what is the law in your anon. state on that point? Records inspection might also be in your association's bylaws, or covenants or both. Are you the lest bit curious?

It doesn't matter what other kinds of corporations--or you-- do by having attorneys write meeting minutes. I've never heard of it for HOA boards. For you Board to be paying a attorney to writ minutes sounds kinda crazy to me.

I have no idea what Max is AMENing about. He's never mentioned that attorneys write minutes in the HOAs he manages.

Hmmmm, there's something about JohnS that's familiar from some time ago on this forum.