Rude Board member

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Is it improper to refuse to speak/e-mail/etc a Board member who is rude and inconsiderate toward me?

We try to hold our discussions at meetings, but I typically send out a weekly e-mail to the Board letting them know of HOA-related things that have come my direction as well as occasional discussions of emergent things that have happened. For the past couple months, the tone of his messages has become increasingly disrespectful. I no longer wish to engage with him as he does not seem to know how to be polite.

I'm wondering if it would be a faux pas to leave him off the list when I send stuff to Board members. Obviously, I'd have to include him on e-mail votes, but do not need to include him on any further discussions.

Thoughts?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/19/2023 4:17 PM
Is it improper to refuse to speak/e-mail/etc a Board member who is rude and inconsiderate toward me?

If it's board business, then you email all.

If it's not board business, do what you want.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Shouldn't discussions of "emergent things that have happened" wait for an actual open board meeting in your state (WA), MichaelT? Or, by emergent, do you mean real emergencies? And is it true you have them every week?

Is it necessary for the Board to receive "updates" every week??? Why can't they wait for a board meeting?

By the "tone of his messages," do you mean his replies to your frequent emails? Also, can you give an example of "tone?"

When you. first h joined this forum under a different name, your earliest "dilemma" was that directors were angry with you for your constant emails. With advice from us and since you haven't mentioned that in quite some time, have you slipped back into that bad habit?

It's disingenuous to ask if you must Include him on "further discussions." You must, of course. But these "discussion should be rare."

My advice is to sit down one coffee and try to lean how relationships between the two of you can be improved. Is he also rude at board meetings?

In my opinion, what is rude is your repeated neglect to finish emails you initiate. No follow up. No comments on advice. Silence.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

It would be more than a faux pas. More like a f*** ups.

vis ta vie

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/19/2023 4:17 PM
Is it improper to refuse to speak/e-mail/etc a Board member who is rude and inconsiderate toward me?

We try to hold our discussions at meetings, but I typically send out a weekly e-mail to the Board letting them know of HOA-related things that have come my direction as well as occasional discussions of emergent things that have happened. For the past couple months, the tone of his messages has become increasingly disrespectful. I no longer wish to engage with him as he does not seem to know how to be polite.

I'm wondering if it would be a faux pas to leave him off the list when I send stuff to Board members. Obviously, I'd have to include him on e-mail votes, but do not need to include him on any further discussions.

Thoughts?

*chuckle* I had to deal with rudeness and disrespect within seconds of being elected to the Board. After giving it some thought, I chose to respond by escalating. It’s not how I usually handle things. But I can’t argue with the results: things are markedly better now. Because the rude people - who, I assure you, were scumbags - all quit or left and were replaced by decent people.

Back when I was doing the corporate thing, I had to put up with all kinds of crap because $$$. But now I’m a retired guy working a volunteer gig? To be clear: it could be that this other person is coming to the same conclusions that I did.

It’s been awhile - this disrespectful person wouldn’t happen to be your wife, would it?

Also: gotta agree with Kerry: always asking asking asking and never responding or providing feedback, that’s like Psych 100 on “how to alienate people”.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Why are people responding to this moron?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I wouldn't call you a moron, but Max has a point. Dealing with rude people can be a pain in the arse, but it's part of life - I would think you're old enough to know that by now. And how do you know this person doesn't have something crazy going on in his life right now and is being cranky?

Anyway, you should send the board member the same emails everyone else will get and ignore the noise. Sometimes people act like buttholes to get a rise out of people - and in your case, it seems to be working (as usual) However, it's no fun when you don't respond in kind, so keep it classy. It's even more fun to watch the person when he sees his behavior isn't having the desired effect. He can either sit there and sulk or get bored and stop.

You may also want to invest in some books on dealing with unruly people (they do exist). There are even articles on the web discussing it - occasionally, I post links to the ones that seem particularly helpful.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

This person, whoever they are can't figure how to run their own association, yet has the gall to offer advice to others in their's.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Having followed MichaelT for a long time, I, & some others, too, think he's made some big improvements to his HOA. It's these micro interactions that seem to baffle him.

Max's name-calling doesn't illuminate the topic or impress anyone else with its brilliance.

JeanneH3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 158

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 02/20/2023 9:32 AM

*chuckle* I had to deal with rudeness and disrespect within seconds of being elected to the Board. After giving it some thought, I chose to respond by escalating. It’s not how I usually handle things. But I can’t argue with the results: things are markedly better now. Because the rude people - who, I assure you, were scumbags - all quit or left and were replaced by decent people.

Back when I was doing the corporate thing, I had to put up with all kinds of crap because $$$. But now I’m a retired guy working a volunteer gig? To be clear: it could be that this other person is coming to the same conclusions that I did.

Bill

I can relate to getting old enough to be intolerant of jerks. But playing devil's advocate, why not maintain a professional demeanor towards rude and disrespectful people even if the only benefit is maintaining one's own dignity?

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/19/2023 4:17 PM
Is it improper to refuse to speak/e-mail/etc a Board member who is rude and inconsiderate toward me?

We try to hold our discussions at meetings, but I typically send out a weekly e-mail to the Board letting them know of HOA-related things that have come my direction as well as occasional discussions of emergent things that have happened. For the past couple months, the tone of his messages has become increasingly disrespectful. I no longer wish to engage with him as he does not seem to know how to be polite.

I'm wondering if it would be a faux pas to leave him off the list when I send stuff to Board members. Obviously, I'd have to include him on e-mail votes, but do not need to include him on any further discussions.

Thoughts?

I'd back off the weekly email updates since they're affecting board culture. Remember, your other board colleagues are not stepping forward to alleviate the rudeness.

Summary: You are over-communicating and paying a price for it.

Most of us have been there. A little distance can cure some ills.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

What Lori said.

Oh, look, I found an article on how to deal with toxic leaders - take a look and consider some of these suggestions (starting with how YOU might respond to bad behavior). Lori's suggestion on pulling back on all the emails is well taken. I know you mean well in keeping them updated, but your previous conversations show you have a tendency to take things to the extreme - maybe this is the real reason the board member bit your head off.....

https://leaderchat.org/2023/02/18/want-to-call-out-a-toxic-leader-ask-madeleine/

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Whoops, I meant Kelly!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanneH3 on 02/20/2023 4:28 PM

Posted By BillD16 on 02/20/2023 9:32 AM

*chuckle* I had to deal with rudeness and disrespect within seconds of being elected to the Board. After giving it some thought, I chose to respond by escalating. It’s not how I usually handle things. But I can’t argue with the results: things are markedly better now. Because the rude people - who, I assure you, were scumbags - all quit or left and were replaced by decent people.

Back when I was doing the corporate thing, I had to put up with all kinds of crap because $$$. But now I’m a retired guy working a volunteer gig? To be clear: it could be that this other person is coming to the same conclusions that I did.

Bill

I can relate to getting old enough to be intolerant of jerks. But playing devil's advocate, why not maintain a professional demeanor towards rude and disrespectful people even if the only benefit is maintaining one's own dignity?

It's a fair question, and I'm not going to bore you with all of the details but the short answer is: I tried to do that - and it didn't work. Bullies tend to interpret that kind of behavior as 'submission' and often it leads to even *more* bullying. With my HOA work - I *always* tried to be nice at first, and I *never* drew first blood. But the other Board members gave me grief, and I decided to not just "let it go". And as a result things are much, much better now, HOA Board-wise.

I realize that there is a hazard to this: what's to stop it all from going to my head, and me becoming Yet Another Bully? ("meet the new boss / same as the old boss"). All I can say is that I put a lot of time, effort, and thought (and prayer) into examining my motives, and if I feel like I'm headed down a bad path - I stop and re-evaluate. My wife is also good for keeping me humble. I love her lots for that.

I think that maintaining a professional demeanor is a good thing, when everyone is doing it. Are you familiar with Robert Sutton's The No Asshole Rule? To some extent, that's what he's advocating: if you've got a group of people being professional and decent to each other, don't screw it up by letting any assholes into the mix. It's a great concept that is also extremely difficult to pull off in the real world.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Thanks Bill.

I am following your advice and dealing with the bully as you suggested. I appreciate your response.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/21/2023 7:02 PM
Thanks Bill.

I am following your advice and dealing with the bully as you suggested. I appreciate your response.

Good luck with that. I gotta be honest: I suspect that this other person considers *you* to be the bully. And so you are now entering “irresistible force meets immovable object” territory. I have no idea how that will play out. I did not mention earlier - I wish I had - that the various “Board Bullies” I had to deal with all folded like the proverbial cheap suit when I pushed back, I think because they simply didn’t know how to deal with any kind of opposition. If you and this other person really get into it, and neither of you backs down - you may want to seriously consider whether or not this is a hill you want to die on. If things get physical, it’s time to drop it and GTFO; to misquote Harry Dean Stanton: “Only an asshole gets killed for an HOA”.

Please keep us informed.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 02/21/2023 7:08 AM
What Lori said.

Oh, look, I found an article on how to deal with toxic leaders - take a look and consider some of these suggestions (starting with how YOU might respond to bad behavior). Lori's suggestion on pulling back on all the emails is well taken. I know you mean well in keeping them updated, but your previous conversations show you have a tendency to take things to the extreme - maybe this is the real reason the board member bit your head off.....

https://leaderchat.org/2023/02/18/want-to-call-out-a-toxic-leader-ask-madeleine/

I liked the way that the author meticulously broke down the situation into its components. My only criticism is that she only discussed handling a toxic boss *from above*. How do you handle the toxic boss when they’re *your* boss?

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

One possible step would be to add board ethics to the board agenda. This would allow for this topic to be discussed and may be the beginning step of developing what the board ethics should be for your HOA.

JeanneH3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 158

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 02/21/2023 10:14 AM

Posted By JeanneH3 on 02/20/2023 4:28 PM

Posted By BillD16 on 02/20/2023 9:32 AM

*chuckle* I had to deal with rudeness and disrespect within seconds of being elected to the Board. After giving it some thought, I chose to respond by escalating. It’s not how I usually handle things. But I can’t argue with the results: things are markedly better now. Because the rude people - who, I assure you, were scumbags - all quit or left and were replaced by decent people.

Back when I was doing the corporate thing, I had to put up with all kinds of crap because $$$. But now I’m a retired guy working a volunteer gig? To be clear: it could be that this other person is coming to the same conclusions that I did.

Bill

I can relate to getting old enough to be intolerant of jerks. But playing devil's advocate, why not maintain a professional demeanor towards rude and disrespectful people even if the only benefit is maintaining one's own dignity?

It's a fair question, and I'm not going to bore you with all of the details but the short answer is: I tried to do that - and it didn't work. Bullies tend to interpret that kind of behavior as 'submission' and often it leads to even *more* bullying. With my HOA work - I *always* tried to be nice at first, and I *never* drew first blood. But the other Board members gave me grief, and I decided to not just "let it go". And as a result things are much, much better now, HOA Board-wise.

I realize that there is a hazard to this: what's to stop it all from going to my head, and me becoming Yet Another Bully? ("meet the new boss / same as the old boss"). All I can say is that I put a lot of time, effort, and thought (and prayer) into examining my motives, and if I feel like I'm headed down a bad path - I stop and re-evaluate. My wife is also good for keeping me humble. I love her lots for that.

I think that maintaining a professional demeanor is a good thing, when everyone is doing it. Are you familiar with Robert Sutton's The No Asshole Rule? To some extent, that's what he's advocating: if you've got a group of people being professional and decent to each other, don't screw it up by letting any assholes into the mix. It's a great concept that is also extremely difficult to pull off in the real world.

Bill

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do agree that dealing with bullies changes the dynamics. My husband is always advocating professional demeanor when dealing with bullies, etc while I'm the one advocating for a good proverbial butt kicking. Sometimes confronting the bully means to simply say "No" or "I disagree" because I think bullies count on complacency and people's wish to not be involved in drama/fear of confrontation. I'm ordering that book you mentioned.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 02/22/2023 4:16 AM

Posted By SheliaH on 02/21/2023 7:08 AM
What Lori said.

Oh, look, I found an article on how to deal with toxic leaders - take a look and consider some of these suggestions (starting with how YOU might respond to bad behavior). Lori's suggestion on pulling back on all the emails is well taken. I know you mean well in keeping them updated, but your previous conversations show you have a tendency to take things to the extreme - maybe this is the real reason the board member bit your head off.....

https://leaderchat.org/2023/02/18/want-to-call-out-a-toxic-leader-ask-madeleine/

I liked the way that the author meticulously broke down the situation into its components. My only criticism is that she only discussed handling a toxic boss *from above*. How do you handle the toxic boss when they’re *your* boss?

Bill

Lots of articles on that too - start with this one: https://www.themuse.com/advice/toxic-boss-signs-how-to-deal There's not a one size fit all approach (sometimes you can go to the boss' supervisor and find out he or she is a bigger asshole). Then you may have a heavy decision to make - leave, find other ways to cope (that don't involves booze, pills or other things that can ruin your health) or sue the crap out of them.

A former co-worker had a tendency to blow hot and cold - she'd been supervisor at another department, but was so awful towards the subordinate, they went to HR enmass and said either she goes or we're all walking. This was the ENTIRE department, so you can imagine how icky things became. One day, she showed up in our department (this was a few months before I joined) and when people asked when she came from, she was rather close-mouthed about it. Of course, office gossip revealed the real story. In our department, she could still be prickly (and people would just shrug their shoulders and ignore her). It was too bad because she had a great sense of humor and could be fun to talk to - too bad she never quite figured out it was easier to treat people with respect.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Do note, MichaelT, that a few of us suggested cutting back on the constant emails you send the Board between meetings. Isn't it true that you do "communicate" a lot? Is the director's rudeness related to too many emails? Or to something else?

Is he rude at board meetings? In what sense is he "bullying" you?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/22/2023 9:27 AM
Do note, MichaelT, that a few of us suggested cutting back on the constant emails you send the Board between meetings. Isn't it true that you do "communicate" a lot? Is the director's rudeness related to too many emails? Or to something else?

Is he rude at board meetings? In what sense is he "bullying" you?

I work hard to reduce e-mails between Board meetings. I consolidate topics to a single e-mail sent once per week with various updates of things that have gone on. The rudeness is best explained that he e-mails back responses copied to the whole board that are simply rude. One of note recently is he minimic'd my tone and retorted how bad things were going for the whole board to see. While I have constantly harped on reducing e-mail traffic, this board member prefers to discuss everything by e-mail rather than meetings and always spouts off opinions, often in a rude tone, regarding the work that we are doing.

I decided last night that, at the next meeting, I will make the statement that I will no longer engage in e-mail discussions about non-emergency (safety-related) HOA issues via e-mail between meetings, and I will only discuss and debate board business at meetings. If any other Board member chooses to try to engage in discussion or debate between meetings, those e-mails will not be read and go straight to the trash can, as e-mail is not an appropriate way to debate and discuss topics.

I think that is reasonable and fully my decision to make. I also believe it supported by the majority of our board who prefer to receive less communication between meetings.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Naw -

The only comment should be:

"To keep the spirit of the open meeting requirement for board meetings, discussion of emails sent will only be done at the meeting."

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, MichaelT, I think I recall you've d complained about this director previously. You wrote, I'm remembering, that he wants to continue discussions of the previous board mtg. after business was conducted and voted on. HOW did we advise you at that time??? Same person, yes??? IS HE rude at meetings? Damn, MichaleT, you truly are evasive.

Tim nails it. Your WA is an open meeting state and no board business among a quorum of you should be discussed among directors online except for the very rare need to perhaps vote on something urgent by unanimous consent, i.e., taking action without a meeting.