Responding to homeowners who want "knock on the door" instead of compliance letter

Started by MichaelT21 • 34 replies • 732 views

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MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

We've sent out a large number of compliance letters, and we have received a few responses from folks who have said it would be more polite to talk to them by knocking on their door rather than sending the letter.

Curious what the proper response is? Clearly we have neither the time nor would it be wise (for personal safety reasons) to have in person conversations regarding compliance issues. However, I'm stumped at the moment trying to figure out what a proper reponse might be.

Thanks!

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

no response, they can come to board meeting if they want to volunteer to be the door knocker.

vis ta vie

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

What Wendy said. Why is this even a question???

And you know what would be more polite? Complying with the damned rules! You don't want to get a letter, knock on the door- or a rock through the window? Clean up after yourself (especially your dog), put you trash IN the dumpster, not around it or outside the shed, or whatever it is.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

knocking on doors don't leave a paper trail. When someone says um I wasn't informed or I don't know: ya whip out the violation letter.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

As LetA said.

Although it may be more polite to knock on a door for every complaint, time constraints and documentation requirements simply does not allow this to occur.

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 859

Posted:

Please add to your to do list and try to find out why there are so many compliance letters.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Official actions of a corporation have to be in writing.

Imagine a homeowner who decides to challenge the board legally over the issue, and the HOA has nothing to prove their case. "We talked to the guy" is hearsay. The HOA would get bounced so fast their heads would spin.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

How are the compliance letters written? How the letter is written can make a big difference. Are they accusatory or politely stated that the owner is in violation of...

I really dislike some HOA person traveling the neighborhood looking for nitpicky violations. Safety violations are a different matter. My city has its own compliance officers that do that. Don't some of you live in cities that do that? My HOA has no additional rules than what the city rules are. No additional rules so no HOA fines.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

People "SAY" they want something said to them in person but they really don't. They are saying that as another way to avoid the violation notice. Like a "denial" response. I don't believe anyone truly wants someone/neighbor/stranger coming to their door to tell them their garbage can needs to come in. There may be people like that. However, you need to make sure first and foremost that truly is the nature of that person. Plus let them know it will be followed up in writing per procedure. Which I kind of think is also a way for them to bypass official notice so there are no records of a history...

Honestly, how many times has someone come to you personally and were receptive? Plus with people being so trigger happy, I am not going to anyone's door to discuss a violation.

Former HOA President

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/18/2023 6:48 PM
We've sent out a large number of compliance letters, and we have received a few responses from folks who have said it would be more polite to talk to them by knocking on their door rather than sending the letter.

Curious what the proper response is? Clearly we have neither the time nor would it be wise (for personal safety reasons) to have in person conversations regarding compliance issues. However, I'm stumped at the moment trying to figure out what a proper reponse might be.

Thanks!

The proper response is it's a safety violation. End of story.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Agree with all others. Our MC calls the notices courtesy letters and the first one is very courteous & polite and goes in a file.

I disagree it's more "polite" to knock on doors. How? Is this some ol' Wild West situation belief that we "should talk about it man to man?" And how can you knock on doors to deliver a Owners a violation when they have renters?

Tell us: in your HOA of 270+ homes, how many want you to knock on doors? And are they the same 2-3 owners who harass you in other ways?

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

The response is “no”.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Create a violation door knocker committee and appoint the people who've made this request to the committee.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/19/2023 7:14 AM
People "SAY" they want something said to them in person but they really don't. They are saying that as another way to avoid the violation notice. Like a "denial" response. I don't believe anyone truly wants someone/neighbor/stranger coming to their door to tell them their garbage can needs to come in. There may be people like that. However, you need to make sure first and foremost that truly is the nature of that person. Plus let them know it will be followed up in writing per procedure. Which I kind of think is also a way for them to bypass official notice so there are no records of a history...

Honestly, how many times has someone come to you personally and were receptive? Plus with people being so trigger happy, I am not going to anyone's door to discuss a violation.

2023 is just getting weirder and stranger by the minute. I completely agree with MelissaP.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/19/2023 8:55 AM
Agree with all others. Our MC calls the notices courtesy letters and the first one is very courteous & polite and goes in a file.

I disagree it's more "polite" to knock on doors. How? Is this some ol' Wild West situation belief that we "should talk about it man to man?" And how can you knock on doors to deliver a Owners a violation when they have renters?

I know this thread is a bit old, but of late I've had reason to do some thinking on this topic.

I do not know for certain, but I think the entire notion of "knock on someone's door to talk about it" comes from worthless 'advice columns' in the media and on the Internet. I know I've seen any number of 'helpful' articles ala

"My neighbor's dog barks"
"My neighbor is too loud"
"My neighbor's yard is a mess"
...

And these articles always start off by recommending that you begin by contacting the neighbor and attempting to talk to them about the issue. It just seems like common sense, doesn't it?

I'm both amused and embarrassed when I think back on how my attitude on this topic has changed over the past couple of years. One of my goals when I joined the Board was to be more "neighborly". I think that many people (including myself) don't really recognize that it's darned near impossible to tell anyone "you're in the wrong" without being offensive. Some people might be able to pull it off. But I can't even ask my wife to let me fix my own plate of spaghetti and meatballs because I prefer to allow the pasta to dry a bit before serving. Ask my neighbor to cut their grass? NFW. Not with what I know now. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to write a truly courteous "courtesy letter".

On a related matter, I used to try to push all manner of neighborhood participation: "get involved!" "contact the Board!" and so on. But I've concluded that most of my neighbors don't *want* to participate, and in fact they expect the Board to handle all of the carp so they don't have to even think about it. I don't see this as being particularly evil; it's more like I need to adjust my expectations. There's an old joke with the punchline "Thursday is your day in the barrel", and to some extent a one year term on the Board is like 365 Thursdays all in a row.

As a corollary, most of the neighbors who *do* want to "get involved" don't seem to be doing it for the good of the community. I'm sorry if I sound bitter. Sadly but truly, almost all of the participation I've observed has somehow been self-serving, and not in some kind of abstract "when we help the neighborhood we help ourselves" sense. Plus I'm convinced that a couple of the neighborhood busybodies are in fact suffering from some kind of mental illness. I don't know if the DSM-5 actually contains a "Lucille Van Pelt" syndrome. But it should.

Thanks for listening.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 04/06/2023 8:14 PM

I think it takes about a year to realize most other people have no desire to be altruistic. Just read some comments on youtube videos about helping strangers in a car crash, most of them are not my problem type responses.

That being said we just redid our violation letter and it now is much more informative and friendlier in tone. Over on Reddit, most responded that it was not needed to try and make it sound freindly. I feel sorry for the communities that serve under such unfriendly people.

vis ta vie

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I think "knock on the door" can be appropriate if this is a neighbor-to-neighbor issue - keeping in mind that one or more parties may own a gun.

When the association and board get involved, it becomes an enforcement issue, and the board is required to comply with the governing documents when handling these cases. Otherwise they jeopardize the association's ability to make their actions stick. Hence the need for putting everything in writing, notifying the accused person of their right to a hearing, and the like. These things usually have to happen first before the association can impose a fine.

Collectively these actions are sometimes referred to as "due process". They're especially important in states that treat fines as assessments and allow for foreclosure for non-payment of fines.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 04/07/2023 8:51 AM
it becomes an enforcement issue, and the board is required to comply with the governing documents when handling these cases. Otherwise they jeopardize the association's ability to make their actions stick. .

Not really

"In short, the homeowner literally scoured the neighborhood for every possible violation
of the covenants and when the board did not enforce all of them, sued the association asking the
court for an order that the association was required to do so. Both the trial court and appellate
court rejected the homeowners’ argument, holding that the terms of the declaration imposed the
powers of enforcement, but not the duty to enforce the covenants and the association had no duty,
as a matter of law, to enforce the covenants as sought by the owner."

Courts have generally ruled that HOA's have the power to enforce, but don't have to enforce it all, because that would be impossible

vis ta vie

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/07/2023 4:25 PM

This varies widely by state. The exact wording of the Declaration may also make a difference.

I would not generalize here.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Over the years one thing that has worked from time to time is the neighbor-to-neighbor approach, but it takes lotsa care.

Having lived in our high rise for a few months, some evenings we'd hear a dog yipping on a patio or balcony. could never see exactly where, and sounds. bounce off our two high rises making it difficult to identify. Happened to be out on a sidewalk one evening that the barking started and identified the unit. We didn't know the Owner. We sent a very polite note starting with a phrase that's worked a few times. first we introduced ourselves and noted we like to sit on our balcony. Then, "We're sure you're not aware of this, but when you're out, you little dog barks a lot...." We left an email addy. The Owners replied the next day and were shocked their dog was annoying others. They had a solution. They became our best friends here.

Another neighbor in the high rise opposite us installed a bird feeder on their balcony. I really enjoyed the birds discovering it and squabbling for turns. A nice variety, too. Their next door neighbor, a new director, contacted me, a seasoned director, and was beside himself with all the bird poop on his dark green steel balcony railings. I looked more carefully and saw about 4 other balcony railings that shared his fate. No rule against bird feeders. But there are nuisance rules. I suggested he send the "You're probably not aware..." letter either alone or with the other affected neighbors, anonymously or signed. He chose to send one anonymously and suggested they lean over their rail to see the others affected. The feeder came down in a day or two. He put a sweet thank-you noted under their door.

So neighbor to neighbor can work in some situations. But, with others, I wouldn't knock on anyone's door and wouldn't expect the PM to do it either.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 04/07/2023 5:38 PM

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/07/2023 4:25 PM

This varies widely by state. The exact wording of the Declaration may also make a difference.

I would not generalize here.

from the book CIC in NC 2nd edition:

Most covenants have distinctly worded covenants that give the board the power but not the
duty to enforce the covenants. In such cases, it is clear that the board need not enforce the covenants
in every single instance. The severity of the violation, the prominence in the community of
the violation, the likelihood of success in any enforcement action and the expense of
enforcement should all be considered by the board in determining whether to enforce the
covenants. Board members have to discharge their duties in good faith, with the care
ordinarily prudent persons in like positions would exercise under similar circumstances; and
in a manner they reasonably believe to be in the best interests of the association.
Further, in making its decisions, the board is entitled to rely on legal counsel who can advise the board as
to the strength of the case and the costs involved in enforcement.
Counsel for the association may advise the board its enforcement action is not likely to be successful, in which case the
board clearly would not have a duty to enforce the covenants.
In other words, while the board does have a duty generally to enforce the covenants, this duty is not absolute. Rather,
each particular case must be judged on its own unique set of facts before the board makes its
decision. So long as the board has carried out its deliberations in good faith, with the care an
ordinarily prudent person in a like position would exercise under similar circumstances; and
in a manner he reasonably believes to be in the best interests of the association, the board
cannot be faulted for exercising its discretion not to enforce the covenants. This is particularly
the case in communities where the covenants give not only the association, but the owners as well
the powers to enforce the covenants.

vis ta vie

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

At what point do contractual terms cease to be contractual terms and contracts become vague suggestions to "do it if you can convince yourself one way or the other"?

The part in bold above sounds like an argument in favor of selective enforcement, which is generally viewed as a bad thing and the first step on the road to making a particular covenant unenforceable altogether.

The only times I can think of where this makes sense is if the "unique set of facts" results in a more authoritative set of laws coming into play (eg. Fair Housing laws or collection actions) which can override CC&Rs.

I would also suggest that "unique sets of facts" that result in things being litigated via the courts is generally *not* in the best interests of associations that are often strapped for cash.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/07/2023 4:25 PM
Courts have generally ruled that HOA's have the power to enforce, but don't have to enforce it all, because that would be impossible

Wendy, here's what I can say from reading case law and statutes in a number of cases over the years:

In court, sometimes a HOA will claim that it does not have to enforce xyz covenant, either because of certain language in the covenants or for some other reason. Sometimes the courts agree with this contention. Sometimes they do not. It depends on how the covenants are worded, state statutes and precedent.

Not trying to "one up" you. I am saying that, if a dispute lands in court, by my reading a HOA that refuses to enforce a covenant may find itself on the losing end of the litigation. An association needs to have a good reason, that will pass legal muster, when it refuses to enforce covenants.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/07/2023 8:14 PM
Over the years one thing that has worked from time to time is the neighbor-to-neighbor approach, but it takes lotsa care.

Having lived in our high rise for a few months, some evenings we'd hear a dog yipping on a patio or balcony. could never see exactly where, and sounds. bounce off our two high rises making it difficult to identify. Happened to be out on a sidewalk one evening that the barking started and identified the unit. We didn't know the Owner. We sent a very polite note starting with a phrase that's worked a few times. first we introduced ourselves and noted we like to sit on our balcony. Then, "We're sure you're not aware of this, but when you're out, you little dog barks a lot...." We left an email addy. The Owners replied the next day and were shocked their dog was annoying others. They had a solution. They became our best friends here.

Another neighbor in the high rise opposite us installed a bird feeder on their balcony. I really enjoyed the birds discovering it and squabbling for turns. A nice variety, too. Their next door neighbor, a new director, contacted me, a seasoned director, and was beside himself with all the bird poop on his dark green steel balcony railings. I looked more carefully and saw about 4 other balcony railings that shared his fate. No rule against bird feeders. But there are nuisance rules. I suggested he send the "You're probably not aware..." letter either alone or with the other affected neighbors, anonymously or signed. He chose to send one anonymously and suggested they lean over their rail to see the others affected. The feeder came down in a day or two. He put a sweet thank-you noted under their door.

So neighbor to neighbor can work in some situations. But, with others, I wouldn't knock on anyone's door and wouldn't expect the PM to do it either.

The two examples you cited are what I consider neighbor-to-neighbor disputes, and I agree that talking to the neighbor is often the best approach. Most people don't want to annoy their neighbors, so it's effective. It probably won't work with the more antisocial folks, though.

A violation of the CC&Rs is different because it involves contractual terms and is not just an annoyance. And as I'd mentioned earlier, many associations have language in their CC&Rs regarding the handling of violations that the board has to follow. If push comes to shove down the road, the board has to prove that it has taken the required actions, which means we need them in writing. Our first letter is the equivalent of a knock on the door - it's friendly and informative, and it fixes the problem in a large majority of cases. For the stubborn minority, the association has proof of due process, which a knock on the door would not provide.

(I really hate the nuisance restriction, though. Not because it isn't needed, but because it's too vague and it guarantees that similar actions will not be treated the same. Whether or not something is a nuisance depends on the act itself *and* on the perceptions of those who are affected by it. To me, one of the guiding principles of HOAs/COAs is that the CC&Rs apply to all owners equally, that nobody is above the law, and that everyone has equal rights and responsibilities. The nuisance restriction by its nature doesn't live up to this.

I also have a personal rule-of-thumb that unenforceable rules are a waste of time and they encourage people to disregard the rules in general. Counterproductive, in other words.)

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

The point occurs when the "contractual" terms tell the HOA board they have the right to do something instead of saying the HOA board has to do something. For example

The right of the Association to promulgate and enforce reasonable regulations governing the use of the Common Areas......

or

Any failure by Association or any other to enforce any of the foregoing
restrictions or other provisions shall in no event be deemed a waiver of their right to do so thereafter.

The whole idea that an HOA MUST enforce all Restrictions is a joke that has never happened and never will happen. For example our CCR state no weeds are allowed AT ANY TIME. I can gunarantee you there are weeds in almost every lawn all the time. I think it also states trash cans will not omit foul odors. duh they all do.

The book excerpt I quoted above is written by an HOA lawyer. He talks about selective enforcement which is totally differnet and a false analogy to this situation Yes there are specific cases where courts have ruled HOA's have to enforce a certain provision, but the whole notion that HOA's have to enforce everything is not something courts have generally upheld.

vis ta vie

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 8:38 AM
the whole notion that HOA's have to enforce everything is not something courts have generally upheld.

Your wording is peculiar to me. Also I do not know what your point is in asserting that, in your experience, HOAs never enforce //everything.//

Here's what I know: To my knowledge, no one has brought suit demanding a court order saying HOAs have to go around, inspect and enforce every single covenant, starting the instant the court order is issued. Owners have brought suit saying HOAs have to enforce a //specific// covenant or board-created rule. At times the courts have said that, per either the covenants, statutes or case law, a HOA was not obliged to enforce such-and-such covenant. That's it.

People have brought suit claiming that the covenants, of which the plaintiffs had proper notice, do not apply to them. Guess what the courts have said? "Wrong." Concerning the enforceability of covenants, this is a blanket statement as much as anything else.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 04/08/2023 9:11 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 8:38 AM
the whole notion that HOA's have to enforce everything is not something courts have generally upheld.

Williams v. Southern Trace Property Owners Ass’n, 43 La. App. 2, 981 So. 2d 196,
writ denied, 992 So. 2d 988,

Williams had a list of over 300 covenant violations and argued to the court that the HOA needed to enforce them all.

but in general I agree that most court cases only deal with one or two specific issues.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Williams v. Southern Trace Property Owners Ass’ might not be the correct case. Reading it online it seems to be a battle over dues, not CCR enforcement. I'll have to email the lawyer who referenced that to see if that is a typo

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

To clarify, frequent or incessant dog barking is a violation of our Rules & Regs, which is a governing doc. We took a neighborly approach, but could have complained to security, had them figure out which Unit was in violation, had the PM write a polite first warning, etc.

Anything from our balconies that falls on the balconies or common areas below is a violation of our Rules too. If my new-director pal had been rigid, he'd have sent a violation notice to management who'd send an immediate call to hearing. The Owners could have been fined and also charged to clean-up about five 10' lengths of steel balcony rails of sun- baked on bird poop. Pretty clear that was a "nuisance." The director didn't want to start his board service that way.

We're redoing our rules now and dumping a few that are stupid and/or unenforceable. We are adding bird feeders prohibited on our exclusive use blah, blah..

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/08/2023 9:18 AM
Williams v. Southern Trace Property Owners Ass’n, 43 La. App. 2, 981 So. 2d 196, writ denied, 992 So. 2d 988,

Your correction is noted; thank you. But I enjoyed reading through the first several paragraphs quickly anyway, grinning. I observed, in person, a similar suit in another state: The plaintiff asserted that the HOA could not assess him for dues. Like Williams, the plaintiff in this other suit also billed the HOA back for work he had done that he claimed the HOA should have done. He lost, to say the least. I bet there are a lot of states that have had these suits at one time or another.

BillD16 (Texas)
Posts: 971

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 04/08/2023 6:33 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/07/2023 4:25 PM
Courts have generally ruled that HOA's have the power to enforce, but don't have to enforce it all, because that would be impossible

"My" Board might be rubbing up against this question in the near future, in that we're hoping to correct a few longstanding violations that no-one's had the time or resources to deal with. If anything interesting happens, I'll do my best to share with y'all.

Bill

HOA Board ex-President
Austin, Texas USA

“You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor”

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

My community's CC&Rs contain statements saying: 1) if one provision in this document is found to be unenforceable, it does not make the rest of the provisions unenforceable; and 2) failure to enforce any of the provisions in this document does not preclude enforcement of said provisions in the future.

This covers a multitude of sins and is clearly a response to the fact that different boards will do things differently. You don't want a few years of lax enforcement to make the association unable to do its job, and reams of contradictory case law does nobody any good (except perhaps the lawyers who got paid for generating said reams).

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our CC&Rs are very similar to Cathy's.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillD16 on 04/08/2023 6:06 PM

Posted By ElleN on 04/08/2023 6:33 AM

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/07/2023 4:25 PM
Courts have generally ruled that HOA's have the power to enforce, but don't have to enforce it all, because that would be impossible

Just watched a NC HOA lawyer presentation a month ago and he stated that if an ARC change goes un challenged for 6 years, then an HOA in NC can't force owner to change it.

vis ta vie

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 04/09/2023 8:21 PM

Just watched a NC HOA lawyer presentation a month ago and he stated that if an ARC change goes un challenged for 6 years, then an HOA in NC can't force owner to change it.

Now the question is when the clock starts. It might very well not start until the HOA "becomes aware" of the covenant violation.

I believe the NC statute to which the attorney is referring is N.C.G.S. § 1-50(a)(3)

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