New PM lasted 8 weeks, replacement lasted 3 weeks. warning signs, or is this normal?

Started by WendyM5 • 61 replies • 934 views

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WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

So our MC decided in Fall of 2022 to shuffle their deck and give us a new manager who lasted about 8 weeks.
We were told how lucky we were to have a new perspective! My eyes were stuck in the back of my head for 48 hrs.

Her replacement lasted about 4 weeks. And we were told staffing is a challenge for all small businesses.

Are other HOA's experiencing such a high turnover rate? Personally I think they are not paying the PM enough to manage 15 HOA's per PM.
Should we start looking for a new MC?

Below is the MC's posting on indeed:
Job details
Salary
$45,000 - $55,000 a year
Job Type Full-time Remote
High school or equivalent (Required)
Community Management: 2 years (Required)
Budgeting: 2 years (Required)
HOA Management: 2 years (Required)
Accounting: 2 years (Required)
Driver's License (Required)
Work authorization (Required)
401(k)
Dental insurance
Health insurance
Life insurance
Paid time off
Candidates Must Reside in or near Charlotte, NC!
An individual must be able to successfully perform the essential functions of this position with or without a reasonable accommodation.
Support and provide efficient and timely communication to the Homeowner’s Association (HOA) Board of Directors needs and requests.

Respond to Board of Directors (BOD) needs via email, telephone or written correspondence in a timely manner
Conduct and attend BOD annual and special meetings as required
Workup budgets for communities
Obtain and negotiate all vendor contracts i.e. (landscaping, maintenance etc.)
Ability to review, interpret and ensure compliance with HOA documentation
Ability to review, interpret and answer questions on Financial Documents
Assists clients with various HOA concerns and/or questions ranging from maintenance, accounting, violations, and other community issues.
Document communications

Answer incoming calls and emails and respond accordingly with proper grammar and spelling.
Assist and respond to all homeowners’ questions relating to statements, violations, maintenance and other questions pertaining to their HOA
Ability to research and obtain information to resolve homeowners’ needs
Conduct follow up on specific requests made to agent by home owners
Filing of Paperwork

XXX Management Group is headquartered in Charlotte, NC. As one of the Southeasts leading HOA Management companies, we strive for personal, internal, and professional growth for all of our employees.
We are seeking viable candidates in Charlotte, North Carolina!

We understand the importance of a healthy work/life balance, and root ourselves in that belief.
Hours of operation for this position: Monday-Thursday, 8am-5pm and Friday, 8am-2pm!

vis ta vie

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Saw it on the company's website. Maybe, it's the HOA?

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

I don't think that pay is enough. managing 15 properties remotely is a lot. How big are these hoa's.?

55 is on the low end. Unlikely that a highly qualified property manager with years of experience in property management would work for that ammount unless they couldn't keep a job themselves.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

i have no big how big other hoas are or if every manager has 15 properties. all I know is that is how many our previous manager had because he mentioned it to me once.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Depends on how much "abuse" a person can take before they want to quit. I worked at a "help desk" for some time. We had a HIGH amount of turn over. No one really questioned why someone left. I think every day we all there fantasized doing the same thing...

I would say this is "normal" depending on how the PM business runs. You may want to visit a website called "Glass Door". That is a website that has many of your questions that can be answered. You can read reviews of former employees or current ones. That may give you an insight of if it's the PM or the nature of the job.

My insurance company had used for years. One day had to go into the office to get insurance for a house. Never been in the office. Observed a little bit of the "work environment". The guy was a bit creepy and the new secretary seemed a bit off. The Agent refused to insure my house and left me hanging a day before closing. Later, I ran into an ex employee. She told me that the turn over in that office was high. She confirmed what I had suspected. He was sexually harassing his employees. I could tell by the way that Secretary was acting she was uncomfortable.

So it may be a good thing to find out what the work environment and if this type of business has high turn over due to the nature of the job. I could not support a business I felt was bad to their employees.

Former HOA President

MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858

Posted:

I agree with the idea that turnover is high. Working with the public that are usually made up of volunteers who are not always trained to do the job effectively leave the PM carry the load. I am assuming they would receive a lot of emails, telephone calls, and not all very nice ones, that over time it chips away at a person. Why take so much abuse? Maybe the company training and support for a new PM is done poorly, maybe the company has them doing too many associations while they are still learning.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Too bad you couldn't speak to either manager - you may be right about the pressure of the job, but Max also has a point. Too many HOAs expect their property managers to do everything like yesterday (and that's not fast enough), and then stand there and take all the abuse, as Michael noted because "that's YOUR JOB, gawddangit!"

You may very well need to search for another property manager (having two up and quit within a month or two isn't a good sign), but before you do, have an honest sit down with her replacement and ask what the board could do to help make his/her job easier in working with your community. You can't control what other clients do, but you and your board colleagues can sit down, be quiet and LISTEN to what the manager has to say. If he/she is relatively new, you and your neighbors should give enough time to get used to your operations. You may find you have some really overbearing homeowners out there - the next time they act up, the board may need to intervene with a come-to-Jesus meeting. Ditto for board members who may try to go around whatever the board voted to do.

And if you do decide another property management company is necessary, have the same talk with the soon-to-be departing property management company. sometimes property management companies and HOAs simply aren't a good match, and it's no one's fault, you're simply oil and water. Again, you can't always control what people do, but you can control what you do, and you don't want your community to be known as a basket of deplorables no one in their right mind would deal with, not even with a case of Jim Beam to fortify them (how you define deplorable depends on who's saying it).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

I wouldn't last eight weeks being the PM for Wendy's HOA.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichaelT21 on 02/02/2023 6:16 AM
I wouldn't last eight weeks being the PM for Wendy's HOA.

Well I am persistent when I know the law and community's vote is behind me and I wouldn't deny anyone's right to see HOA documents due to thinking they were against me. so yeah you wouldn't be a good fit. I prefer managers who abide by the rules, not make up thier own reasons to ignore them.

vis ta vie

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Sounds about right.

This is a high turnover industry, particularly in portfolio. It’s not just the 10-15 properties, it’s the 10-15 board meetings a month (at night of course) and the 10-15 sets of homeowners calling to yell at you for everything under the sun, and the 10-15 sets of board members that either never respond or call you 6 times a day.

And all this for $45k! I mean who wouldn’t want to do that.

Sometimes it’s just not a good fit. It’s a very fast paced job, requiring multitasking and time management. It’s not for everyone and sometimes people realize that after a few weeks. Or hours.

You have no control over how many properties your manager is assigned, what she is paid or whether her boss is a jerk. But what any board can do to support (and help retain) their manager is:

Don’t balk at a management fee increase (because that’s the only way your manager can get paid more)
Respond to emails if she needs your approval for something
Respect her time and run efficient board meetings that stick to business
Don’t call after hours if it’s not an emergency
Come to meetings prepared. Read that packet she sent you the week prior
Use the tools the management company provides. If they give you a portal to read documents, use it. Don’t demand that reports be emailed to you instead. If a report comes as a PDF, don’t demand an Excel.
Know what your managers contractual obligations are and don’t ask or expect her to exceed them unless you are prepared to pay extra. If you get one nighttime board meeting a month, don’t ask her to attend a city council meeting, committee meeting, or second board meeting.
Don’t tolerate hateful speech or behavior from residents directed at your manager. Remind the community that she is executing the boards decisions or following the associations governing documents and screaming at her won’t change those.

I also acknowledge that some managers suck. My comments above aren’t directed at anyone in particular and assumes your manager is making a good faith effort to do a good job.

MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414

Posted:

It's defiantly a tough job to take on, and I agree the pay is not equal to the amount of work the PM must do. While they have set hours, they're never really off the clock.

Unfortunately this is not abnormal, but are you happy with the company as a whole? Might it be time to look at other options?

MichaelT21 (Arkansas)
Posts: 200

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BarbaraT1 on 02/02/2023 6:31 AM
Sounds about right.

This is a high turnover industry, particularly in portfolio. It’s not just the 10-15 properties, it’s the 10-15 board meetings a month (at night of course) and the 10-15 sets of homeowners calling to yell at you for everything under the sun, and the 10-15 sets of board members that either never respond or call you 6 times a day.

And all this for $45k! I mean who wouldn’t want to do that.

Sometimes it’s just not a good fit. It’s a very fast paced job, requiring multitasking and time management. It’s not for everyone and sometimes people realize that after a few weeks. Or hours.

You have no control over how many properties your manager is assigned, what she is paid or whether her boss is a jerk. But what any board can do to support (and help retain) their manager is:

Don’t balk at a management fee increase (because that’s the only way your manager can get paid more)
Respond to emails if she needs your approval for something
Respect her time and run efficient board meetings that stick to business
Don’t call after hours if it’s not an emergency
Come to meetings prepared. Read that packet she sent you the week prior
Use the tools the management company provides. If they give you a portal to read documents, use it. Don’t demand that reports be emailed to you instead. If a report comes as a PDF, don’t demand an Excel.
Know what your managers contractual obligations are and don’t ask or expect her to exceed them unless you are prepared to pay extra. If you get one nighttime board meeting a month, don’t ask her to attend a city council meeting, committee meeting, or second board meeting.
Don’t tolerate hateful speech or behavior from residents directed at your manager. Remind the community that she is executing the boards decisions or following the associations governing documents and screaming at her won’t change those.

I also acknowledge that some managers suck. My comments above aren’t directed at anyone in particular and assumes your manager is making a good faith effort to do a good job.

Barbara, your post highlights why I spend a lot of time and energy trying to ensure that the PMC/HOA relationship works out well. I consider it a partnership rather than a "I am the customer therefore I am right" situation, because our PMC can do a lot of good for us as long as there is trust and respect both directions. We are fortunate to have a great PM and I spend a lot of energy trying to ensure that she can execute her job well. In return, our PM does excellent work for us. I think I probably go overboard on working on this partnership, but I tend to go overboard on things in general.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarshallT on 02/02/2023 6:34 AM
It's defiantly a tough job to take on, and I agree the pay is not equal to the amount of work the PM must do. While they have set hours, they're never really off the clock.

Unfortunately this is not abnormal, but are you happy with the company as a whole? Might it be time to look at other options?

Well we could switch to their affiliate company that does everything but drive around and write up reports and save around $250 a month, we would technically be self managed. With a manager turn over rate every 2 months, heck that's basically what we are doing now, so why pay some newbie to do that is my feeling. Not sure what the other 2 board members think about it. They probably dont' like it but they are busy so I dont' know if they would initiate the change. And I'm not sure I want to put much time into it if all they do is vote me down in the end and thus waste my time. I guess next board meeting I will just tell them that and see what they think.

vis ta vie

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Our former PM was paid a lot more for managing 15 communities, and I think the cost of living in our areas is roughly comparable. That's a lot of work and a whole lot of stress. Community management is a tough job - often clients have unreasonable expectations, don't want to pay squat, and can be rude or unprofessional in their dealings. From what I've seen, a manager better be an extrovert, because a job like this will chew up an introvert.

I also think it's unreasonable to expect a 9:00-5:00 M-F job if you're managing condos. After hours emergencies are a fact of life in attached housing, and ignoring them can result in much bigger and more expensive repairs. To quote one of the PM's on this site, "condos are the worst".

FWIW, the only PM we've lost was one of ours who moved out of state. When I was on the board, I viewed the manager as a partner - different skills, different roles to play, but ultimately having the same goal of a well-run association. Sometimes that could involve protecting a partner from an abusive homeowner or abusive board member, because frankly nobody should have to put up with that cr@p. A partner who knows you have their back is more likely to stick with you and do a better job.

So this may be a warning sign, but of what? Insufficient information so far. If you lose a third PM in the next year, it's more likely to be you and not them. Either you're doing a poor job of selecting a management company - and that can include being unwilling to pay enough to get a good one - or you're running off the ones you do hire.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 02/02/2023 6:59 AM

So this may be a warning sign, but of what? Insufficient information so far. If you lose a third PM in the next year, it's more likely to be you and not them. Either you're doing a poor job of selecting a management company - and that can include being unwilling to pay enough to get a good one - or you're running off the ones you do hire.

Well they are one of the lower priced management companies in the area, so maybe we are getting what we paid for. maybe we were just lucky to have a good PM for the first 5 years.

My biggest fear is they go belly up and none of the BOD's names are on any financial accounts. I've been bugging the other board members to get this done for a few months, maybe this turn over will persuade them to take some action to secure the HOA's financials. I never even called or emailed the last PM that quit. Glass door reviews seem to suggest they throw their PM's in managing a full portfolio after minimal training, so probably a big learning curve.

vis ta vie

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

Forum needs a "like"/upvote button (possibly "dislike"/downvote button), so individual replies can get additional recognition they deserve which would help others quickly separate good info from the rest, and would eliminate the need for posts like what I'm about to do . . .

SheliaH's post is spot on!

Wendy, I'd agree this situation is a "warning sign". And while you've concluded it's a PM/MC-generated problem, I doubt that's accurate. Suggest closely examining how you and your Board/Members interact with the PM/MC as well as level of expectations and actual contracted services of PM/MC.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ND on 02/02/2023 7:12 AM

Wendy, I'd agree this situation is a "warning sign". And while you've concluded it's a PM/MC-generated problem, I doubt that's accurate. Suggest closely examining how you and your Board/Members interact with the PM/MC as well as level of expectations and actual contracted services of PM/MC.

good advice. I don't think me challenging their $200 fee for closign docs helped, but that discussion was with the district management, not the individual property managers. I didnt' even contact the last one that quite after 4 weeks. the one before that I sent out several emails asking for assistance, but never followed up with a rush request becuase I knew they were new.

vis ta vie

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

The pay is maybe about right for the amount of experience and education required. But I think the amount of experience and education required is not enough for the job required. In an ideal world, I think either the minimum experience; the minimum amount of education; or both should be increased.

Or the ad should say this is for the job of assistant manager, with someone at the headquarters being the lead manager. The assistant manager is mostly in training.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Also, don't underestimate the effects of the pandemic and the Great Resignation. Lots of employees have say "to h3ll with it", and it's no surprise that community management companies are also seeing this.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Wendy,

It is abnormal to have three property managers within a two-month period. Watch this closely. Your HOA must have stability regardless of office drama and turnover. We certainly did not renew a manager's contract (but we didn't break the contract or "fire" the company) over turnover - which can reflect chronic cultural issues.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Wendy, please remind us what common areas & amenities comprise your HOA and how many detached homes (or condo?) there are. All I remember from awhile back are parks or playgrounds(?)

Given the required ed. background and list of duties, I agree with BarbaraT of TX, a community manager, and with Cathy that the wages are too low. That the candidate doesn't have to prep the board for regular (monthly?) board meetings or attend them does seem to make it a "remote" job and keeps that burden off.

But 15, or even 8 accounts sound like a lot. With 8 accounts, only 5 hours a week can be spent on each, which might be OK. With 15, the mgr.'d be working way more hours over 40 a week given all of the duties.

Rented for a year in a low rise condo building in downtown San Jose CA. Amenities were a pool, jacuzzi, workout room and party room with full kitchen. There was no lobby or reception area. Their portfolio mgr was on the premises 12 hours a week, which seemed just right. Don't know if board meetings were part of her job.

I complain about the comm. mgr. turnover in my HOA of many years, but they seem to last generally 2-3 years. A couple were promoted. A couple were demoted to less challenging condo high rises, the two lasted a year. One later was fired. One quit and entered a more lucrative filed, was later hired back and was fired after a year. Our Board always interviews candidates that the MC provides. Pay is huge, but the only way to do the job well, even with a full-time onsite assistant, is to work way more than 40 hours a week. Unbelievably, for the 1st 4 years of our buildings, ca. 2000, we had a portfolio, offsite manager for 200+ high rise units & many amenities plus complicated buildings.

I see the Charlotte MC doesn't require good punctuation, which makes sense since the writer left out several apostrophes.

Owned a NC low-rise condo for 2-1/2 years near Charlotte U & on "Lake Axis," a tiny human-made lake. About 80 new units, but only a pool, storage outbuilding for pool equipment & landscaping tools, and paved parking area for all cars. A remote manager handled only the finances. We had the same one the whole time owning there.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

I happen to know the company in question, and they ain't going belly up any time soon. They have 23 offices in 4 states. 15 properties for a manager is a lot, BUT not unheard of, thus quick burnout. Doing some math, you could have 15 properties paying only $400.00 per month. How many hours should an association paying only $400 per month get? Then having issues with vendors, that have their own internal issues in trying to get work started, much less finished. In our area, making $45K is beneath many people nowadays.

If having good punctuation was the criteria for hiring an MC or manager, many of us here would be in serious trouble.

JeanneH3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 158

Posted:

I found our MC's prior job listings on Indeed (NC as well) and the starting salary for an "HOA Manager" is $38,540. =8-0

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Have to be in agreement with others... Being an MC for Wendy's HOA no amount of money may be worth it. Plus 45k is nothing to sneeze at.

Former HOA President

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

I agree with Max. Any negative comment about a person's attempt to communicate on this site appears to be rubbing elbows with BULLYISM.

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

I agree with Max. Any negative comment about a person's attempt to communicate on this site appears to be rubbing elbows with BULLYISM.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/03/2023 7:47 AM
Have to be in agreement with others... Being an MC for Wendy's HOA no amount of money may be worth it. Plus 45k is nothing to sneeze at.

this forum really needs a block feature for people that constantly break the forum rules.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Yep they should...

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Let us also make it clear that Wendy demanded that their MC dropped the price for some services the MC provided or have the HOA do it themselves. Which the MC is a profit making company. Now they can not longer charge for that work means the MC may have to pay less to their employees. The ones that were getting paid for doing the work... Now just lost $200 for their work brought into the company.

Now wants to complain about the turn over and how much the MC company pays... The company has to earn money to pay the employees. Cutting off a profit because think the HOA a NON Profit should do the work and get paid...

Just in case anyone wonders why I would or others not want to work for that MC if have to deal with idealism all the time ...

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/03/2023 9:41 AM
Let us also make it clear that Wendy demanded that their MC dropped the price for some services the MC provided or have the HOA do it themselves. Which the MC is a profit making company. Now they can not longer charge for that work means the MC may have to pay less to their employees. The ones that were getting paid for doing the work... Now just lost $200 for their work brought into the company.

Now wants to complain about the turn over and how much the MC company pays... The company has to earn money to pay the employees. Cutting off a profit because think the HOA a NON Profit should do the work and get paid...

Just in case anyone wonders why I would or others not want to work for that MC if have to deal with idealism all the time ...

I suggest you call up the North Carolina Legislature, the Texas Legislator, and several other states that have created laws that limit how much a MC can charge for closing documents. It's so sad these companies are loosing profits! I'm not sure how I can sleep at night knowing that they aren't making as much money. Maybe if they were smart, they should fix their contract so that mean people like me and my other board members can't change terms to make it less profitable? They were smug enough to have a bad contract, not my fault. Business is business after all is it not?

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

#1 Wendy the HOA was NOT paying the money. It was the BUYER paying the MC. The HOA had no dog in this hunt until you got all up in that business. Why? Because you wanted the HOA to profit from it instead. Let us call a spade a spade ...

Former HOA President

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Wendy

If I were you and the attitude you have toward companies making a living, I would strongly consider going self-managed and running the corporation on your own. Based on personal experience, it is not that difficult with the right HOA software. Then if things don't the way you want, the person to blame is in the mirror.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Say, Wendy, will you please answer my couple of question above? Thanks.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/03/2023 11:08 AM
#1 Wendy the HOA was NOT paying the money. It was the BUYER paying the MC. The HOA had no dog in this hunt until you got all up in that business. Why? Because you wanted the HOA to profit from it instead. Let us call a spade a spade ...

WRONG. The HOA owns the financial data and controls how the MC uses it. even you can't be that stupid to believe the MC can use the HOA's data without permission. I simply told them it's our data. The contrat doesn't give you control over it and go pound sand.

Legally I can do that, get over it. If the MC was selling "for sale" yard signs that belonged to the HOA for $200 to residents that were selling their home every one would be pissed. But somehow Karen AKA Melissa think's it's ok for the MC to charge the HOA membership to use HOA assets?

what's next you gonna allow the MC to charge for pool access? Playground access passes? you are beyond ridiculous and can't get over the fact that what was done helps our HOA. go work for a MC if you love their incorrect interpretation of the contract.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MaxB4 on 02/03/2023 11:39 AM
Wendy

If I were you and the attitude you have toward companies making a living, I would strongly consider going self-managed and running the corporation on your own. Based on personal experience, it is not that difficult with the right HOA software. Then if things don't the way you want, the person to blame is in the mirror.

fair enough. But charging $200 for free downloadable governing docs is not a fair way to make a living IMHO and has nothing to do with high turn over rates. If XXX Property management company can't pay their managers enough it's not because my/our HOA reduced their profit by $2000/year.

XXX Property management company told me that I was the only HOA company that wanted to do the closing docs.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Max I will let you take over on the FACTS of the HOA relationship with an MC. It is not in the view of the poster... You know MC the best.

Former HOA President

LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009

Posted:

Our three condo sub-associations use the same property manager as part of their portfolio. Their PM has at least 15 properties. And they have had at least 5 PMs and assistants in the last year.

Portfolio management is very hard. You couldn't get me to do it for that amount of money. No one wins when you are working for so many different boards.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

so roughtly every 11 weeks you get a new PM? isnt' that extrmemely non effcient? how much can a new person get accomplished in not only 3 months!

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

so roughtly every 11 weeks you get a new PM? isnt' that extrmemely non effcient? how much can a new person get accomplished in not only 3 months!

vis ta vie

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 02/03/2023 11:45 AM

I have no clue what is legally required to be given to the seller from the HOA or its agent, nor do I care. I do business in California and the legally required documents are not just a few "free" downloadable docs. I provide a service no association I have managed in the past 14 years has ever wanted to tackle. I have handled over 5,000 escrow requests in those 14 years and never once have I had a dispute about the price charged.

I only provide full-service management to three accounts, all the others are financial only. I decided to change my business model two years and it works out well for both parties. California requires more information to be provided than others states and I focus on keeping HOAs up to date while letting them handle their daily affairs without interference from an MC.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/03/2023 11:57 AM
Max I will let you take over on the FACTS of the HOA relationship with an MC. It is not in the view of the poster... You know MC the best.

Don't care. This blatantlhy off topic. My $2000 of lost profit has nothing to do with how much a PM gets paid to manage 15 HOA"s that easily have $150=$200K in fees/dues every year.

why can't you just let this go?

if you want to discuss this again you know where the original thread is.

go post on the old thread. dont' sobatage every single thread over something that is already settled, that you supposedly didnt' care about.

JC. you act like it's your $2000 of profit I'm taking out of your personal bank account.

vis ta vie

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Even though Wendy won't answer my easy questions, which do relate to this thread, I agree that Melissa sabotaged it.

SrqlcamG (Florida)
Posts: 2

Posted:

I have worked in Community Associations for the past 25 years. Managed on-site as well as portfolio & they ech have their pros & cons: i.e. on-site a manager gets micromanaged & portfolio properties thinks they deserve 40 hours for fours pay.
I’ve seen a real change in owner behavior since the last election & COVID19 lockdown & it’s not pretty.
This job is 24/7 of multi-tasking heaven & hell.
The best managers were assistants prior to becoming a CAM; turnover like mentioned above is either a bad manager fit or a bad Board. All management companies doe the same service just with different platforms. It’s your manager who makes the difference. Oh, and you do get what you pay for.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Yep. I sabotage everything Kerry because only you are the rightful owner of free advice... Got it.

Former HOA President

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I think that all of this stuff is inter-related.

I think one of many HOA boards' blind spots is that they try to do everything on the cheap - because homeowners howl about assessment increases and some can even vote them down - so they expect their vendors also to provide services on the cheap. This doesn't work. By and large, you do get what you pay for. And top notch companies can command a higher price for their services. They aren't looking for work. They may have waiting lists. So you either pay a fair price for good quality work, or you make do with the cheap stuff, or you do without.

Another HOA blind spot is that there is no cost associated with making do with the cheap stuff. There is: the cheapskate pays the most. It's no different from buying shoes. You can either buy top quality shoes that last you for years, or buy cheap ones that have to be replaced every year (and then pay doctors when your feet, knees and back start giving you grief). In community associations, boards will Mickey Mouse repairs until the item is too damaged, at which point it needs to be repaired properly or replaced. So they've paid for both the half-a$$ed repairs *and* the proper repair (which will probably be a lot more costly due to the greater damage and inflation).

A third blind spot is that because volunteers are doing much of the HOA work, mediocre work is acceptable and will be forgiven. It may not be. Things related to HOA business are often regulated by law, and there will be legal and financial penalties for getting it wrong. When you pay professionals for work, you aren't paying for just their time to spit out some documents. You're paying for the knowledge and experience that allows them to spit out documents with correct and complete info, as well as their office infrastructure and various support services because they're probably not doing this work sitting at their dining room table.

(Although there is a management company in my area whose employees DO do their work at their dining room tables. It's a point of pride with them since they market themselves as the low-cost provider. There are consequences to this, but that's a story for another time.)

Anyway, judging the fair price for work based on how many pieces of paper are produced is wrong-headed. Have you looked closely at how much you pay for a prescription from your doctor? It's just a piece of paper, right? Anybody can scribble something illegible on a small piece of paper, right? Most folks realize how silly this is when you're talking about medical services, but somehow HOAs expect to be immune from the laws of economics. They aren't. They're not just paying for an end product, they're paying for everything that goes into making that end product - and much of that can be invisible to the buyer.

One of my pet peeves is the lengths people go to in order to hide the true cost of home ownership in HOAs/COAs. It isn't just cash-strapped boards doing this. It's everyone with a vested interest in having HOAs/COAs at all. Boards are just the ones left holding the bag when denial no longer works. Also a rant for another time...

JackieB4 (California)
Posts: 398

Posted:

Cathy, well spoken and I enjoyed this with my morning coffee. The FORTH BLINDSPOT might be how we (BOD) actually determine the quality of our PMC: time to switch or not? The serious warning signs?

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 02/04/2023 6:21 AM
I think that all of this stuff is inter-related.

I think one of many HOA boards' blind spots is that they try to do everything on the cheap - because homeowners howl about assessment increases and some can even vote them down - so they expect their vendors also to provide services on the cheap. This doesn't work. By and large, you do get what you pay for. And top notch companies can command a higher price for their services. They aren't looking for work. They may have waiting lists. So you either pay a fair price for good quality work, or you make do with the cheap stuff, or you do without.

Another HOA blind spot is that there is no cost associated with making do with the cheap stuff. There is: the cheapskate pays the most. It's no different from buying shoes. You can either buy top quality shoes that last you for years, or buy cheap ones that have to be replaced every year (and then pay doctors when your feet, knees and back start giving you grief). In community associations, boards will Mickey Mouse repairs until the item is too damaged, at which point it needs to be repaired properly or replaced. So they've paid for both the half-a$$ed repairs *and* the proper repair (which will probably be a lot more costly due to the greater damage and inflation).

A third blind spot is that because volunteers are doing much of the HOA work, mediocre work is acceptable and will be forgiven. It may not be. Things related to HOA business are often regulated by law, and there will be legal and financial penalties for getting it wrong. When you pay professionals for work, you aren't paying for just their time to spit out some documents. You're paying for the knowledge and experience that allows them to spit out documents with correct and complete info, as well as their office infrastructure and various support services because they're probably not doing this work sitting at their dining room table.

(Although there is a management company in my area whose employees DO do their work at their dining room tables. It's a point of pride with them since they market themselves as the low-cost provider. There are consequences to this, but that's a story for another time.)

Anyway, judging the fair price for work based on how many pieces of paper are produced is wrong-headed. Have you looked closely at how much you pay for a prescription from your doctor? It's just a piece of paper, right? Anybody can scribble something illegible on a small piece of paper, right? Most folks realize how silly this is when you're talking about medical services, but somehow HOAs expect to be immune from the laws of economics. They aren't. They're not just paying for an end product, they're paying for everything that goes into making that end product - and much of that can be invisible to the buyer.

One of my pet peeves is the lengths people go to in order to hide the true cost of home ownership in HOAs/COAs. It isn't just cash-strapped boards doing this. It's everyone with a vested interest in having HOAs/COAs at all. Boards are just the ones left holding the bag when denial no longer works. Also a rant for another time...

Well maybe so or maybe not so many factors are in play with different communities that it's hard to say with definitiveness that any/all of the above opinions apply.

Neighboring HOA spent $10K+ on repairing minor sidewalk hairline cracks that are not a safety issue, that were 8 years old. Repair job looks like crap, total waste of funds, looked better before.
The 3 MC I've spoken to all have their managers work from home, seems to be common
You dont' get what you pay for at all where I live. You get whatever amount of work researching the issue back. PIck the first vendor cause you dont' research the costs involved and get burned. Vendor quotes for the same work can vary 200% in cost and yet quality is the same in my experience.
Anyways I'm not going to go on with cliches, and the doctor analogy is false. Doctors have years of training you are paying for. These managers have a week of training mostly and now that I've been on this board for a year there is slim chances any new manager will have more experience.

bottom line I think this is our new normal and we just got lucky the first 5 years.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JackieB4 on 02/04/2023 7:17 AM
Cathy, well spoken and I enjoyed this with my morning coffee. The FORTH BLINDSPOT might be how we (BOD) actually determine the quality of our PMC: time to switch or not? The serious warning signs?

the only way to determine the quality of a PM is by talkign to a current HOA client IMHO and even then it's debateable if the HOA client has a good idea if they are getting a good deal, because many boards members have not been around to compare the service they have gotten from different MCs.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Good post Cathy! Right on. Wendy is just got it stuck in her mind she did something "good" because no one else is doing it. There is a REASON no one is. # 1 NO ONE volunteered to do it within her HOA. Plus the Board did NOT approve this decision with the MC I am sure. Plus it would have been illegal to charge IF the HOA had the job versus the MC doing it.

I still have yet to see Wendy let the MC do their job without looking over their shoulder thinking they can do better. For me, I would limit the communication to the MC to just the Officers of the HOA. Let the board decide who the 2 or 3 best POC would work with talking to the MC on the HOA's behalf. this is AFTER the HOA board made a decision. It would not be "ankle biters' talking to the MC. Those would be the ones who need to take it to the Board then they decide if need to take it to the MC.

The relationship between an MC often gets blurred or blinded. Sometimes it's by the MC and sometimes it's by people like Wendy. This is why a MC can move through people because communication is key if both side LISTEN.

Someone made a comment about "Bullying". Sometime you need to see the whole issue before jumping to that conclusion...

Former HOA President

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