Towing

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

I'm having an issue with my HOA.

1. There is an adjoining vacant lot next to my HOA development.
2. This vacant lot is not part of the CC&R. It is still owned by the developer/declarant which is an LLC. It is currently on the market for sale.
3. HOA residents use this vacant lot as overflow parking as well as others in the community that are not part of HOA.
4. HOA has a contract with a tow company to tow vehicles in violation of HOA rules.
5. My car was parked on this vacant lot with an expired safety inspection sticker.
6. Tow company patrolled the area and towed my car in violation of HOA policy.
7. When I asked Property Manager where HOA received authority over the vacant lot, she told me that there is an agreement with the lot owner to use the lot as long as HOA parking policies are enforced.
8. I asked to see the agreement.
9. Property Manger seemed to change positions and inidicated there is a working relationship with the owner.
10. Not satisfied with that answer, I continued to press Property Manager for the agreement.
11. Property Manager then sent me a Deed of Easement as her authority and a Tow Agreement with the Tow Company.
12. Deed of Easement is irrelevant to this situation, not sure how she thought it applied.
13. Tow Agreement specifies "HOA Property".
14. I sent a letter to HOA Board seeking an explanation for how HOA had authority over the lot and to enforce HOA policies on the lot when the public also uses the same lot.
15. HOA Attorney sent me a verbal beating telling me that there is an oral agreement with the LLC that if HOA maintains the lot then we can use it and enforce HOA policies.
16. HOA Attorney then said that because HOA "maintains" it then it is considered Common Area.
17. Nowhere in my governing documents do I see this vacant lot as HOA Property or Common Area.

How can HOA enter verbal agreements and then bind me to terms that I am unaware of??? I have a feeling HOA knows they messed up and are trying to cover their tracks. Thoughts??

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Suggestions:

* Read your CC&Rs, especially the parking restriction.

* If the lot is still owned by the developer, it's very likely that he's still a member of the association and his lot is still subject to the same restrictions as the rest of the community. Look in your CC&Rs for plats and/or descriptions of the HOA property. Vacant/for sale lots are not abandoned.

* If the association has posted signage that the community is a tow-away zone, then towing is allowed. In addition, individual homeowners may have right to have vehicles towed from their own property.

If people are using someone else's property for their own benefit, they need to assume that at some point the owner of the property will object and take appropriate steps. I only fault the board if they failed to notify everyone who is parking on this lot and have them towed as well. We don't know this happened, though - it's possible the board has notified the owners of the vehicles, and now they're moving to the next steps after being ignored.

Depending on what your parking restriction and any towing signage says, I doubt that anyone parking on that empty lot has a winnable case. I'd chalk it up to a lesson learned (ie. don't assume that if your neighbors are doing it that it's OK).

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Also, just FYI: when a developer buys up land to create a new community, all of the land is part of the HOA as soon as the CC&Rs are recorded, which can be months or even years before the first home is built and sold. This, and the fact that the association seems to be taking care of the lot, says that it *is* part of the HOA and subject to all restrictions.

It's unlikely to be common area, though, since the developer appears to be selling it. The HOA would have to buy the lot from the developer, and the CC&Rs would have to be amended to make that happen. I assume it's being taken care of because untended lots can attract varmints, weeds, trash, and other nonsense - they also make the community look poorly maintained, which doesn't do anybody any favors. It's also possible/likely that the developer is paying the HOA for this work.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 7:00 AM
I'm having an issue with my HOA.

1. There is an adjoining vacant lot next to my HOA development.
2. This vacant lot is not part of the CC&R. It is still owned by the developer/declarant which is an LLC. It is currently on the market for sale.
3. HOA residents use this vacant lot as overflow parking as well as others in the community that are not part of HOA.
4. HOA has a contract with a tow company to tow vehicles in violation of HOA rules.
5. My car was parked on this vacant lot with an expired safety inspection sticker.
6. Tow company patrolled the area and towed my car in violation of HOA policy.
7. When I asked Property Manager where HOA received authority over the vacant lot, she told me that there is an agreement with the lot owner to use the lot as long as HOA parking policies are enforced.
8. I asked to see the agreement.
9. Property Manger seemed to change positions and inidicated there is a working relationship with the owner.
10. Not satisfied with that answer, I continued to press Property Manager for the agreement.
11. Property Manager then sent me a Deed of Easement as her authority and a Tow Agreement with the Tow Company.
12. Deed of Easement is irrelevant to this situation, not sure how she thought it applied.
13. Tow Agreement specifies "HOA Property".
14. I sent a letter to HOA Board seeking an explanation for how HOA had authority over the lot and to enforce HOA policies on the lot when the public also uses the same lot.
15. HOA Attorney sent me a verbal beating telling me that there is an oral agreement with the LLC that if HOA maintains the lot then we can use it and enforce HOA policies.
16. HOA Attorney then said that because HOA "maintains" it then it is considered Common Area.
17. Nowhere in my governing documents do I see this vacant lot as HOA Property or Common Area.

How can HOA enter verbal agreements and then bind me to terms that I am unaware of??? I have a feeling HOA knows they messed up and are trying to cover their tracks. Thoughts??

I hear you that HOA rules might not actually be legally enforceable on this lot. You can write a letter to the board as follows:

Dear Board of Directors,

The HOA towed my vehicle from ____ on January ___, 2023. When I bought a home in this HOA, I know I became subject to the HOA Declaration, Bylaws and Rules and Regulations. I have studied these. Declaration Sections ___, ___ and ___ seem to be the relevant Declaration sections here. No where is there indication that this lot is subject to the duly recorded HOA's covenants. Therefore I do not see how the HOA has the authority to tow my vehicle from a lot that is not subject to the HOA.

Please remove the billing for towing my vehicle within five business days.

If you disagree, please provide a time and place for a hearing within the next two weeks.

Thank you,

Vincent ____
address
phone
email addie

If this fails, then you are stuck with deciding whether the cost of lawyering up is worth it. It likely is not.

HOAs can be awful. Keep reading at this forum and you will see that many people over time realize it's just not worth fighting them or getting on the board to cause change.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Vinny

Some associations say any vehicle must be registered and inspected as per sate laws otherwise it can be removed.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Great information, thank you all! On another note, my state laws are specific about who can enforce Motor Vehicle Code (of which safety inspections fall into) and that would be State police officers and law enforcement.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

I was also thinking this would fall into the category of unenforceable.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 8:42 AM
I was also thinking this would fall into the category of unenforceable.

It //might// be unenforceable.

You did a lot of research here and presumably tried to present all the facts. But this is only one side.

I still have questions. Like what is the relevance of the expired safety sticker?

If you can answer my questions and the questions of others here, this might help the forum to give you better advice.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Vinny, do tread carefully here. The HOA/Declarant attorney is already involved. The covenants may very well say that you can be billed for the HOA/Declarant attorney fees when the HOA/Declarant attorney is assisting in enforcing rules. This forum has seen owners assessed for the Declarant's attorney fees in the past. These HOAs can pile cr-p on until you have no choice but to lawyer up (costing you much more than the first bill you received) or pay.

This situation is about who has more power and more money. One has to pick one's battles.

Also honey might be better than vinegar here. You can explain your position; say notice should have been given before towing began; say that the Board is supposed to be "reasonable" and so fair in ambiguous situations; and politely ask for reimbursement for the towing. If the HOA says no, oh well. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Vinny, I think you may be conflating state inspection sticker enforcement by a state agency or law enforcement with HOA rules designed to minimize the presence of 'junker cars'.

It is common for an HOA declaration to state motor vehicles parked on owner or association property where they are visible must have current license/registration and other 'stickers', such as state safety inspections. The HOA is not enforcing the safety inspection/license/registration requirements, it has no enforcement capability. The HOA is using those requirements to maintain the appearance, ambience, etc. of the HOA.

I suggest you put the 'unenforceable' idea vis-a-vis the expired sticker on the back burner. I would pursue your central point regarding jurisdiction or lack thereof.

CjC
Posts: 210

Posted:

Does your state require tow warning signs? Did tow company post required signage in parling lot that is NOT part of HOA and you can't presume HOA rules apply to private property

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Yes, points well taken. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around how a working relationship created obligations on me.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Within my neighborhood is an easement road that serves an adjoining cemetery and provides access to the vacant lot. So yes, there are tow signs along HOA property line, but no tow signs on easement road. Hope that makes sense.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Thank you, I have read the parking restrictions and it clearly specifies HOA Property and Common Areas.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Great points! Seems inconsistent that I'm being told it is considered HOA Common Area and yet it's for sale. I know original homeowners who are still in the neighborhood have told me they brought up buying the vacant lot in the early days but nothing ever came of it.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Thank you for the words of wisdom. I'm listening and learning from you all. I'm open to hearing all perspectives as I am very capable of being blinded by my own bias!

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 8:50 AM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 8:42 AM
I was also thinking this would fall into the category of unenforceable.

It //might// be unenforceable.

You did a lot of research here and presumably tried to present all the facts. But this is only one side.

I still have questions. Like what is the relevance of the expired safety sticker?

If you can answer my questions and the questions of others here, this might help the forum to give you better advice.

Okay, I think I figured out how to properly reply to the relevant posts I'm answering. Thanks for the question. Because I have no evidence that the vacant lot is indeed HOA Common Area (except for the words of the attorney) then the next logical question is how did HOA and tow company get authority to seize someone's vehicle due to an expired safety inspection . . . even the cops can't seize my car for expired safety inspection.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 2:29 PM
how did HOA and tow company get authority to seize someone's vehicle due to an expired safety inspection . . . even the cops can't seize my car for expired safety inspection.

Did the HOA say the reason the HOA towed your vehicle was because of an expired safety inspection?

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 3:17 PM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 2:29 PM
how did HOA and tow company get authority to seize someone's vehicle due to an expired safety inspection . . . even the cops can't seize my car for expired safety inspection.

Did the HOA say the reason the HOA towed your vehicle was because of an expired safety inspection?

Yes, HOA Property Manager said the reason for the tow was expired safety inspection.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 3:25 PM
Yes, HOA Property Manager said the reason for the tow was expired safety inspection.

Do you have this in writing?

What is it you want from the board at this point?

Do you want to continue parking in this lot?

Do you want to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow?

Something else?

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 3:32 PM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 3:25 PM
Yes, HOA Property Manager said the reason for the tow was expired safety inspection.

Do you have this in writing?

What is it you want from the board at this point?

Do you want to continue parking in this lot?

Do you want to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow?

Something else?

Yes, I have it all in writing. I would like to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow, a new property manager, and a new tow company.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 3:43 PM

Yes, I have it all in writing. I would like to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow, a new property manager, and a new tow company.

I advise giving up on replacing the property manager and tow company.

I see you have already tried writing the board and mostly, got back a nasty letter from the HOA attorney.

How much time and effort are you willing to give to // try // to get reimbursed for the tow?

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 3:58 PM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 3:43 PM

Yes, I have it all in writing. I would like to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow, a new property manager, and a new tow company.

I advise giving up on replacing the property manager and tow company.

I see you have already tried writing the board and mostly, got back a nasty letter from the HOA attorney.

How much time and effort are you willing to give to // try // to get reimbursed for the tow?

I understand what you are saying. This is indeed draining. Takes a lot of mental and emotional energy!

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 6:28 PM

Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 3:58 PM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 3:43 PM

Yes, I have it all in writing. I would like to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow, a new property manager, and a new tow company.

I advise giving up on replacing the property manager and tow company.

I see you have already tried writing the board and mostly, got back a nasty letter from the HOA attorney.

How much time and effort are you willing to give to // try // to get reimbursed for the tow?

I understand what you are saying. This is indeed draining. Takes a lot of mental and emotional energy!

send them a demand letter and sue in small claims court if needed. Your HOA's stance if flat out wrong.

Property managers can be as stubborn as a donkey. I recently was arguing with my PM about how our contract does not give them authority to charge $200 in closing costs for providing our HOAs governing documents. Even showed them similar court cases that proved my point.

I didn't get a logical response back which referenced contract terms. I got several emails based on feelings and how things were done in the past, totally unprofessional and lacking any logical argument. Same thing with our landscape company which we fired when they tried to raise rates on us over the contract limits.

Aparently people think Trump can just make up BS, get lawyers to defend BS and never get caught, so they can to?

vis ta vie

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

You parked your car on someone else's property and you're complaining your car was towed because of an expired inspection sticker. That's on you.

You do not have a leg to stand on.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 02/01/2023 6:55 PM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 6:28 PM

Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 3:58 PM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 3:43 PM

Yes, I have it all in writing. I would like to be reimbursed for the cost of the tow, a new property manager, and a new tow company.

I advise giving up on replacing the property manager and tow company.

I see you have already tried writing the board and mostly, got back a nasty letter from the HOA attorney.

How much time and effort are you willing to give to // try // to get reimbursed for the tow?

I understand what you are saying. This is indeed draining. Takes a lot of mental and emotional energy!

send them a demand letter and sue in small claims court if needed. Your HOA's stance if flat out wrong.

Property managers can be as stubborn as a donkey. I recently was arguing with my PM about how our contract does not give them authority to charge $200 in closing costs for providing our HOAs governing documents. Even showed them similar court cases that proved my point.

I didn't get a logical response back which referenced contract terms. I got several emails based on feelings and how things were done in the past, totally unprofessional and lacking any logical argument. Same thing with our landscape company which we fired when they tried to raise rates on us over the contract limits.

Aparently people think Trump can just make up BS, get lawyers to defend BS and never get caught, so they can to?

Yes, I am beginning to learn how PM's work. I was naive to think the rule of reason would prevail. They just throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks . . . no matter how illogical.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 02/01/2023 8:44 PM
You parked your car on someone else's property and you're complaining your car was towed because of an expired inspection sticker. That's on you.

You do not have a leg to stand on.

I apologize if it comes off as complaining, that is not my intention. I'm just merely trying to gain understanding and insight from those more experienced than I.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

General comments:

* Re: the expired tag, my CC&Rs prohibit parking "junk, inoperable, or abandoned vehicles" on common elements, and expired tags are specifically cited as one criterion for being inoperable. Expired tags would indeed get you towed in my community.

* Parking on someone else's lot is no different from parking in someone else's yard. Even the most easy-going neighbor is likely to have opinions on that if he didn't give you permission to do so. And the owner of this lot wants to sell it. Who is going to make an offer if it's being used as a junk yard? I'm surprised nobody else has been towed.

* I'm suspicious of any claim that this lot is common elements. Not if someone owns it, it isn't. We also don't know what sort of arrangements still exist between the developer of the HOA and the association. Maintaining undeveloped lots could fall within the association's scope of responsibility.

* As we've seen with so many other HOA disputes, fighting something and getting "the law" involved can easily result in a final cost being much higher than the original fine or whatever. And that's without even considering the mental wear and tear. There is also no guarantee that you'll win.

The pieces of this story aren't hanging together - although being able to read the CC&Rs and view plat maps would probably clear up some confusion. If this were my car and I knew this little about what was actually going on, I'll retrieve the car and consider it a lesson learned. But I'm a big believer in cutting my losses and moving on. If someone wants to fight, I'm sure there are lawyers out there who'd happily facilitate it...

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 6:28 PM
I understand what you are saying. This is indeed draining. Takes a lot of mental and emotional energy!

I want to be clear that towing vehicles from a developer owned lot when people have been using this lot for parking for some time now, without appropriate warning that towing will commence, is not cool. If I were in your shoes, I might be pretty unhappy too. But I am not quite clear on the facts here.

I believe the veteran board directors and managers who post at this forum would have sent out notices and/or placed warnings on the vehicles before starting towing a week or so later. But would they have been required to? That's in the grey area as far as I am concerned. If push came to shove: One judge might see it one way. Another judge might see it another.

I would be annoyed but also would likely have learned a lesson about parking where it's not clear I have a legal right to park.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I agree with ElleN's last post. In my state, in order to tow lawfully you have to post signage with the proper wording that this is a tow-away zone and you have to notify the owner of the vehicle (a sticker on the vehicle is enough) that the vehicle will be towed after a certain date. Our manager also informs the local police that the vehicle was towed.

That said, you have to consider how the lot owner in this situation will probably see things:

He owns a piece of land that he wants to sell, and a bunch of squatters have decided to turn his land into a junk yard. Adverse possession is a thing, which means he can't ignore this. So he has one or more vehicles towed, and now the owners of the vehicles are getting attitudes.

How likely is it that the owner of the land will be willing to make nice at this point?

The only possible leverage that a car owner may have is if this were not a lawful tow for some reason. We don't have enough information to determine this. I also don't know why the HOA would be involved at all unless the land is inside the boundaries of the HOA or subject to an easement of some sort. Otherwise, I don't see how the vehicle owners have any sort of a case. They trespassed. They got away with it for a while. Possibly the board considered this an owner-owner issue and so they did nothing, and now a new board sees things differently. In any case, recess is over.

I stand by my original opinion: fighting this will probably cost a lot more than getting the car back from the impound lot, and the outcome is not certain.

VinnyV (Virginia)
Posts: 15

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ElleN on 02/02/2023 7:42 AM

Posted By VinnyV on 02/01/2023 6:28 PM
I understand what you are saying. This is indeed draining. Takes a lot of mental and emotional energy!

I want to be clear that towing vehicles from a developer owned lot when people have been using this lot for parking for some time now, without appropriate warning that towing will commence, is not cool. If I were in your shoes, I might be pretty unhappy too. But I am not quite clear on the facts here.

I believe the veteran board directors and managers who post at this forum would have sent out notices and/or placed warnings on the vehicles before starting towing a week or so later. But would they have been required to? That's in the grey area as far as I am concerned. If push came to shove: One judge might see it one way. Another judge might see it another.

I would be annoyed but also would likely have learned a lesson about parking where it's not clear I have a legal right to park.

I definitely was not trespassing. Actually, my whole row of houses were instructed by PM to move our vehicles from our assigned parking spots to one of two adjoining lots (not belonging to HOA per CC&R) because maintenance work on our lots were scheduled the following morning.

I moved my car and not even 2 hours later it was towed. Funny thing, there were at least 2 cars that had been obviously abandoned on the that lot for weeks with YEARS old inspection stickers, but for some reason, mine was the only one towed. I think the problem here is that HOA gave tow free reign to tow at their discretion. No phone call needed. I can only think that my car was chosen because tow knew someone would come and claim it.