💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:

Hi. The HOA held its annual meeting last spring. Ballots were given out which listed the candidates for Director and directions to vote for vacant or contested seats. The Ballots had a space to put your address. So I held up my hand for a while because this was clearly not a secret ballot. I was never recognized to speak. The problem was/is that the Bylaws, quoted below, require a secret ballot to elect directors.

"Section 4. Nomination and Election of Directors. Election to the Board of Directors shall be by secret written ballot cast at the annual meeting, unless dispensed with by unanimous consent of those present at such meeting. At such election the Members or their proxies may cast, in respect to each vacancy, as many votes as they are entitled to exercise under the provisions of the Declaration. Directors shall be elected by a plurality of the votes cast. Cumulative voting shall not be permitted."

My question to the group is, what should the ramifications of this be? Would it be possible to invalidate the election and perhaps through an injunction remove all the improperly elected directors? Or is it not a big deal, or something else?

Thanks.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The ballots had a space for the address or the envelope did?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Many HOA's you elect the board and then the board elects the officers amongst themselves. Could this be that the secret ballot refers to the board voting for the officers and not for the general membership vote for the Board?

Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
so you are saying people would of voted differently if the ballot did not have thier address listed? were ballots thrown out that did not have the address listed? I've had neighborhood surveys' where people do not list thier address and those were thrown out. they did not effect the overall results.

I doubt it, but the real question is why do you want the BOD replaced?

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
so you are saying people would of voted differently if the ballot did not have thier address listed? were ballots thrown out that did not have the address listed? I've had neighborhood surveys' where people do not list thier address and those were thrown out. they did not effect the overall results.

I doubt it, but the real question is why do you want the BOD replaced?

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
so you are saying people would of voted differently if the ballot did not have thier address listed? were ballots thrown out that did not have the address listed? I've had neighborhood surveys' where people do not list thier address and those were thrown out. they did not effect the overall results.

I doubt it, but the real question is why do you want the BOD replaced?

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/31/2023 2:58 PM
Many HOA's you elect the board and then the board elects the officers amongst themselves. Could this be that the secret ballot refers to the board voting for the officers and not for the general membership vote for the Board?

How many boards do you know that vote by secret ballot to elect their officers?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
How many HOA's do you know that don't? Why ASSUME?

Former HOA President
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/31/2023 3:21 PM
How many HOA's do you know that don't? Why ASSUME?

I've managed over 200 associations over 14 plus years and NONE have.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
I thought Walter was asking about the election of Directors and not the Officers. His question pertains to the secrecy of the ballot if the address of the owner voting is listed on the ballot.

No place in Walter's post does the word "Officer" appear, especially in the Section 4 he quoted. I interpret Section 4, and his question, as pertaining to the election of Directors only.

All I can say is that in Texas the address of the voting owner must be printed or entered someplace on the ballot. We design the ballot so those tabulating the ballots cannot see the address, hence secrecy is preserved.

Walter, I do not see this as a big deal and would not make an issue of it unless you think nefarious deeds were committed during the tabulation process because the addresses were on the ballots. Take up your concerns regarding the language of Section 4 vis-a-vis the appearance of the address on the ballot with the board or property manager offline and don't challenge the election.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
In over 25 years of HOA living with Board service, and as managing owners, we have never seen a secret ballot/vote to elect officers
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Why stumble into the officers weeds? And even agree about it?

But , with Wendy, would truly secret ballots, also required in CA for directors, have made a difference? Still, I'd worry about a board who asks for identifying info when it's supposed to be by secret ballots.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/31/2023 2:58 PM
Many HOA's you elect the board and then the board elects the officers amongst themselves. Could this be that the secret ballot refers to the board voting for the officers and not for the general membership vote for the Board?

Which college course that you took, Business Law or Criminology did you come up with that answer>
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I can't speak for other HOA's in this world that they don't have such a voting system. No HOA is the same. I am not much into the whole "secret ballot" system myself. No one really cares that much. Plus it's not the candidates counting the votes in most cases.

My question is for the OP is it because the people who got on the board they don't like? Otherwise what is the big deal if you got people who want to be involved. Most HOA's don't have that.

Former HOA President
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
"Many HOA's you elect the board and then the board elects the officers amongst themselves. Could this be that the secret ballot refers to the board voting for the officers and not for the general membership vote for the Board?"

No it is for when the members of the association elect the Directors.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
"All I can say is that in Texas the address of the voting owner must be printed or entered someplace on the ballot. We design the ballot so those tabulating the ballots cannot see the address, hence secrecy is preserved."

The ballots were on a single 8.5 X 11 in. page, there were no envelopes or anything like that. After the ballots were cast some management company staffers tabulated the vote, which took a couple of hours. The results were announced the same night. I don't see how it could be a secret ballot when the candidates are listed right above the address. I doubt any ballots were disqualified for lack of address. Why have a space on the ballot for the address unless you want that address captured with the votes for the different candidates listed?

WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
"All I can say is that in Texas the address of the voting owner must be printed or entered someplace on the ballot. We design the ballot so those tabulating the ballots cannot see the address, hence secrecy is preserved."

The ballots were on a single 8.5 X 11 in. page, there were no envelopes or anything like that. After the ballots were cast some management company staffers tabulated the vote, which took a couple of hours. The results were announced the same night. I don't see how it could be a secret ballot when the candidates are listed right above the address. I doubt any ballots were disqualified for lack of address. Why have a space on the ballot for the address unless you want that address captured with the votes for the different candidates listed?

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am confused. Would the address not indicate the person is a HOA member that cast their vote? Think that would be needed to make sure it is a valid member. Maybe a lot # been better? The name of the person not there just address

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WalterM3 on 01/31/2023 11:36 AM

My question to the group is, what should the ramifications of this be? Would it be possible to invalidate the election and perhaps through an injunction remove all the improperly elected directors? Or is it not a big deal, or something else?
Clearly the bylaw requiring a secret ballot was violated. But you're right to suspect it may be a big deal that so much time has passed. This sort of delay even has a name in the courts: Laches.

Furthermore, you're just a few months from the next election, correct?

Also, as someone else pointed out, would the ballots having been secret have made a difference?

I say your time is better spent reminding the present board that the bylaws were violated in 2022; ballots have to be secret going forward; suggesting the board require addresses only on the outer envelope containing a ballot; asking that an impartial Election Inspector (such as an accountant) be retained in the future; and asking that the Board confirm it will take these steps within 10 days.

Checking the Georgia statutes for anything on this would also be helpful. Is this a condo or a subdivision of single family homes? What year was it established?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, with ElleN, Remind the Board publicly or in writing about secret ballots, and that it's their job to abide by the governing documents. An a dress on an outer envelope is one way. An inspector of elections checks that owners name on a list. The next inspector opens ballots & mixes them so there's no connection with its envelope. The 3rd Epson tabulates the votes.

In CA 2 envelopes are required. The owners name, HOA address & signature is on the outer envelope, which is open & the name chased on a list. the next envelope has no identifiers on it and goes to the next inspector to open.

In CA, MC staffers may not tabulate ballots. Are you sure that they may in GA? In CA, our HOA has owner volunteers as inspectors of election. They may not be directors or related to any candidates. Many HIAs in CA hie a firm that provides inspectors of election.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Rules in Georgia will be completely different from California, or many other states for that matter. Based on what the OP posted, the election didn't have to be by secret ballot, and as such nothing was violated. His Bylaws state, Election to the Board of Directors shall be by secret written ballot cast at the annual meeting unless dispensed with by unanimous consent of those present at such meeting. It very well could have been dispensed, maybe in the way, people in the South do things.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
I think the phrase, "unless dispensed with by unanimous consent of those present at such meeting" is referring to election of directors by acclamation. Meaning the number of people running for the board is less than or equal to the number of board seats up for grabs.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
How do you have a secret ballot IF you allow proxies?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:

Max, I wrote to show things may be different in GA: "In CA, MC staffers may not tabulate ballots. Are you sure that they may in GA?" Methods by which to do secret ballots have nothing to do with any particular state.

Ever since Owners may vote by mail/absentee in CA, none at my HOA have used proxies. So I don't know the answer to how to keep them secret. How are they kept secret in the HOAs you manage, Max?

If members can dispense with something, and I do think Sect. 4 is unclear, whether it's secret ballots OR the entire election, I think the OP would have told us

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
California, by far, has the strictest HOA election rules in the country. But, they were never done correctly. One year they appease one group, the following year they appease the other side. We should have gone to electronic online votes years ago, after all, we are electing a non-paid volunteer to an HOA board that generally has the day-to-day operation run by a management company.

Mentioning what California does only confuses the issue in Georgia or any other state for that matter.

Haven't used a proxy in 14 years, as it is not required to be provided by the association, only that they can be used.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I disagree, Max. So long as poster make it clear that the OP, or whomever, needs to check their own docs and their won state statutes, what other states do can be useful & illuminating.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/01/2023 10:14 AM
Yes, with ElleN, Remind the Board publicly or in writing about secret ballots, and that it's their job to abide by the governing documents. An a dress on an outer envelope is one way. An inspector of elections checks that owners name on a list. The next inspector opens ballots & mixes them so there's no connection with its envelope. The 3rd Epson tabulates the votes.

In CA 2 envelopes are required. The owners name, HOA address & signature is on the outer envelope, which is open & the name chased on a list. the next envelope has no identifiers on it and goes to the next inspector to open.

In CA, MC staffers may not tabulate ballots. Are you sure that they may in GA? In CA, our HOA has owner volunteers as inspectors of election. They may not be directors or related to any candidates. Many HIAs in CA hie a firm that provides inspectors of election.

That's all good stuff, thanks.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 02/01/2023 10:29 AM
I think the phrase, "unless dispensed with by unanimous consent of those present at such meeting" is referring to election of directors by acclamation. Meaning the number of people running for the board is less than or equal to the number of board seats up for grabs.

That's right. If a vote is dispensed with by a unanimous show of hands, then you don't need a secret ballot or any ballot.
LynneV1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 211
Posted:
I would think the term "secret ballot" means that the other homeowners at the meeting don't know who you voted for. Maybe you should Google the term secret ballot. It would make sense that the person collecting the ballots has to make sure that you are an owner of a property on record, and that you are not in arrears. They could only do that by knowing your name and your address. our HOA lists homes by addresses. So, I don't understand your concern. It's not like they read your vote out loud, correct? wouldn't your vote still be secret to the other homeowners?
and yes I guess if they had your name and address on an outside envelope and then your ballot was inside the envelope once they checked it outside envelope -that would be secret....but I think it would still lead to the option of slipping in extra ballots by the person/ persons counting the votes.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In CA associations, and probably many states, secret ballots means NO ONE knows who the owners voted for. It's just like voting in our national or local elections.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/03/2023 2:51 PM
In CA associations, and probably many states, secret ballots means NO ONE knows who the owners voted for. It's just like voting in our national or local elections.

Not actually true, as a proxy may tell how an owner voted, and a proxy is not secret.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I did not term a proxy a secret ballot, Max.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
The proxyholder knows, thus not a secret ballot.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LynneV1 on 02/03/2023 10:23 AM
I would think the term "secret ballot" means that the other homeowners at the meeting don't know who you voted for. Maybe you should Google the term secret ballot. It would make sense that the person collecting the ballots has to make sure that you are an owner of a property on record, and that you are not in arrears. They could only do that by knowing your name and your address. our HOA lists homes by addresses. So, I don't understand your concern. It's not like they read your vote out loud, correct? wouldn't your vote still be secret to the other homeowners?
and yes I guess if they had your name and address on an outside envelope and then your ballot was inside the envelope once they checked it outside envelope -that would be secret....but I think it would still lead to the option of slipping in extra ballots by the person/ persons counting the votes.

Cheaters cheat. No system can stop all cheaters.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/03/2023 2:51 PM
In CA associations, and probably many states, secret ballots means NO ONE knows who the owners voted for. It's just like voting in our national or local elections.

In the past they have checked home owners off on a list and given them a ballot.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
That sound good, Walter. Once the person votes on the ballot, did it the go into a box,? Or?
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/05/2023 9:39 AM
That sound good, Walter. Once the person votes on the ballot, did it the go into a box,? Or?

I saw 2 or 3 people that I took to be from the management company collating and fooling with the ballots while sitting at a table. After about two hours they announced the outcome.

Belatedly I will add the below:

(b) Meetings of Association.... At the annual meeting, comprehensive reports of the affairs, finances and budget projections of the Association shall be made to the Owners."

That wasn't done. None of the Board members spoke during the business part of the meeting. It was conducted solely by, I believe an attorney from the law firm retained by the HOA.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Those evil, evil management companies.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Is your recent citation, Walter, from your HOA's bylaws?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WalterM3 on 02/07/2023 10:12 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/05/2023 9:39 AM
That sound good, Walter. Once the person votes on the ballot, did it the go into a box,? Or?


I saw 2 or 3 people that I took to be from the management company collating and fooling with the ballots while sitting at a table. After about two hours they announced the outcome.

Belatedly I will add the below:

(b) Meetings of Association.... At the annual meeting, comprehensive reports of the affairs, finances and budget projections of the Association shall be made to the Owners."

That wasn't done. None of the Board members spoke during the business part of the meeting. It was conducted solely by, I believe an attorney from the law firm retained by the HOA.


You should ask for MichaelT help, as he can whip you up a 40 page Powerpoint presentation.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 02/07/2023 11:32 AM
Is your recent citation, Walter, from your HOA's bylaws?

Yes it is.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/31/2023 3:02 PM
so you are saying people would of voted differently if the ballot did not have thier address listed? were ballots thrown out that did not have the address listed? I've had neighborhood surveys' where people do not list thier address and those were thrown out. they did not effect the overall results.

I doubt it, but the real question is why do you want the BOD replaced?

I would say blatant and unethical refusal to follow the governing documents would be a good start.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LynneV1 on 02/03/2023 10:23 AM
I would think the term "secret ballot" means that the other homeowners at the meeting don't know who you voted for. Maybe you should Google the term secret ballot. It would make sense that the person collecting the ballots has to make sure that you are an owner of a property on record, and that you are not in arrears. They could only do that by knowing your name and your address. our HOA lists homes by addresses. So, I don't understand your concern. It's not like they read your vote out loud, correct? wouldn't your vote still be secret to the other homeowners?
and yes I guess if they had your name and address on an outside envelope and then your ballot was inside the envelope once they checked it outside envelope -that would be secret....but I think it would still lead to the option of slipping in extra ballots by the person/ persons counting the votes.

No, secret ballot has an accepted definition. That is to say, a secret ballot does not have identification information on the ballot. Instead, the ballot is placed inside another envelope, which has the identification. The ballot described by the OP is known as a naked ballot.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/01/2023 9:01 AM
I am confused. Would the address not indicate the person is a HOA member that cast their vote? Think that would be needed to make sure it is a valid member. Maybe a lot # been better? The name of the person not there just address

The ballot should have no identification. It is placed inside an envelope that does have identification. Each envelope should have its address compared to a master list of addresses and checked-off. If more than one ballot is found for the same address, bylaws should discuss the procedure for handing.

After all of the envelopes are inspected, they are opened, the ballots removed, and counted. All of this should be in front of unbiased inspectors, and hopefully in front of any candidate who requests.

That's how it works in an honest election.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/08/2023 1:18 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/01/2023 9:01 AM
I am confused. Would the address not indicate the person is a HOA member that cast their vote? Think that would be needed to make sure it is a valid member. Maybe a lot # been better? The name of the person not there just address


The ballot should have no identification. It is placed inside an envelope that does have identification. Each envelope should have its address compared to a master list of addresses and checked-off. If more than one ballot is found for the same address, bylaws should discuss the procedure for handing.

After all of the envelopes are inspected, they are opened, the ballots removed, and counted. All of this should be in front of unbiased inspectors, and hopefully in front of any candidate who requests.

That's how it works in an honest election.

I watched them process the ballots. No envelopes were involved. What they did couldn't have happened by accident.
DavidG45 (Delaware)
Posts: 994
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WalterM3 on 02/08/2023 2:55 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/08/2023 1:18 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/01/2023 9:01 AM
I am confused. Would the address not indicate the person is a HOA member that cast their vote? Think that would be needed to make sure it is a valid member. Maybe a lot # been better? The name of the person not there just address


The ballot should have no identification. It is placed inside an envelope that does have identification. Each envelope should have its address compared to a master list of addresses and checked-off. If more than one ballot is found for the same address, bylaws should discuss the procedure for handing.

After all of the envelopes are inspected, they are opened, the ballots removed, and counted. All of this should be in front of unbiased inspectors, and hopefully in front of any candidate who requests.

That's how it works in an honest election.


I watched them process the ballots. No envelopes were involved. What they did couldn't have happened by accident.

I will say that as much time has passed there is likely nothing that can be done. In the future, if you document the procedure, you could theoretically sue and have the election overturned.
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/08/2023 2:58 PM
Posted By WalterM3 on 02/08/2023 2:55 PM
Posted By DavidG45 on 02/08/2023 1:18 PM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/01/2023 9:01 AM
I am confused. Would the address not indicate the person is a HOA member that cast their vote? Think that would be needed to make sure it is a valid member. Maybe a lot # been better? The name of the person not there just address


The ballot should have no identification. It is placed inside an envelope that does have identification. Each envelope should have its address compared to a master list of addresses and checked-off. If more than one ballot is found for the same address, bylaws should discuss the procedure for handing.

After all of the envelopes are inspected, they are opened, the ballots removed, and counted. All of this should be in front of unbiased inspectors, and hopefully in front of any candidate who requests.

That's how it works in an honest election.


I watched them process the ballots. No envelopes were involved. What they did couldn't have happened by accident.


I will say that as much time has passed there is likely nothing that can be done. In the future, if you document the procedure, you could theoretically sue and have the election overturned.

Maybe. Unless they tried to do something really egregious.

Ignoring the Bylaws to conduct an election to suit a certain clique is bad, and time may allay any action on that. But trying to force some creepy course of action on the community would be a horse of a different color.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Walter

Are you accusing them on rigging the ballot counting?
WalterM3 (Georgia)
Posts: 442
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 02/09/2023 9:35 AM
Walter

Are you accusing them on rigging the ballot counting?

I think they wanted to know who voted for whom, and perhaps pressure people to vote a certain way.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Were you on the ballot?

Former HOA President

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here