New Construction HOA advice

Started by ShaneJ6 • 41 replies • 531 views

💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Howdy all,

Joined the community to ask a question pertaining to HOAs in “active” new build communities (as I think they may have certain exemptions from the normal rules).

Our new con HOA bylaws are written similar to the standard bylaws that the neighborhood won’t be turned over to the community until all houses have been sold and the model home sold. However, I’m beginning to ask a question no one can seem to answer. What happens if the builder stalls construction? How long can they control the HOA before it is too long?

Our builder has completed almost half the neighborhood but hasn’t poured a new foundation in well over 6 months. There are about 6 homes that are all in their final steps to being completed. And the actual Construction Manager says they don’t have a timeline for when they will finish construction as it has been postponed with no restart date.

What are the options for my community because we really dislike our property management group.

Thanks.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Most likely not stalling as much as not selling. If you have not noticed the housing market has slowed to a crawl. High interest rates and potential recession has scared buyers off. It is now a matter of the economy allowing building to resume again.

My HOA is also similar situation.the market slowed. The builders stopped building for a few months. They started back but those homes sit empty for weeks.

Remember houses to a developer is their end product. Just like if a shoe maker made shoes. It just happens to be houses instead. They can not afford to carry the inventory of their product. It has a shelf life like many other products.

Former HOA President

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

I totally agree with this and understand. The area in discussion is a town in very close proximity to one of the top 5 fastest growing cities in the US. As a result, builders flooded the surrounding towns with houses and they sold at first, but have greatly stalled in this one neighborhood in particular. Other builders are still completing handfuls of homes a month (within 5 miles).

But that still brings me to the question of could we as the community ever fight a builder HOA and the community manager and actually have a chance of being able to participate in the HOA, or are we SOL until the builder is done.

Which then brings me to the question of, if the housing market crashed tomorrow, and the builder didn’t pour a foundation for two more years, would the expectation be that we just live in the neighborhood, paying HOA dues, for a HOA that 0 people in the neighborhood can actually have a say in.

I just feel like there has to be a sort of expiration date on this kind of stuff. HOAs can build or ruin neighborhoods. And Builder HOAs are notoriously strict to maintain image. I mean hell, just to pay my monthly dues electronically, it costs almost as much as a month of dues to pay with a card in “processing” fees. We as the community are just tired of being robbed of our money by this property manager.

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

That is a question for a real estate attorney with some expertise in the HOA laws of Texas.

I am in a similar situation but I am not eager for the owners to take over the HOA. The developer in my community isn't terribly picky. The only restriction placed on the homeowners is that the front yards have to have a certain uniform look but the rear yards have no restrictions.

Do you mind sharing what it is that you don't like about your community manager? Or is it about paying assessments and you have no say in the management of the community and it seems like it will be a very long time before the owners can take over.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

This is what I assumed, but figured I’d post on a forum and see if I can find someone who has experience before paying for consultations lol.

I have no problem sharing.

My dues are 33.33 a month. With no explanation as to why even though many people have asked, we are charged quarterly 100$ (people wonder why we are not charged the 99.99).

We have no communal property and the only thing that our dues go to is front entrance maintenance. However, the property manager makes stupid decisions like not freeze protecting irrigation and then all the pipes freeze in the winter and now we’re paying for new irrigation even though the property manager’s responsibility is to maintain that equipment with our money.

We are having druggies shoot heroin on vacant lots and leaving needles on the sidewalks people frequent with children, dogs, or running/walking. We asked for the HOA to add cameras or take some effort into security (I.e. work with the local small town PD) and they said there is nothing they could do.

We asked for a community improvement on 1 of 2 HOA controlled vacant lots, and we got told no because the builder doesn’t want it.

We go to pay our dues, and find out there is a 20-30$ fee to process card or bank transactions, meaning the only way to not pay them an extra month of dues is to mail a check to them.

We have a field mouse problem developing in the neighborhood because the builders don’t spec trash pads to be poured on the sides of the house but the bylaws prevent our cans from being placed against the garage door (if you moved the cans to literally the sign of the house still in view it’s fine though). The HOA would rather we encourage field mice to enter our garages because we store trash in there than allow us to store the cans neatly in the drive way. (Mind you we also have can rules stating the lids have to be closed when placed at the street so it’s not a matter of over filling and being an eye soar).

We are being held accountable for lawn appearance because the builder is not making trades pick up after themselves and all their construction waste (products and workers lunch waste) blows everywhere into all our lawns. So we are not generating the waste but because fate blew it into our yards, we get served the warnings.

I’m probably forgetting more stuff. There’s honestly a lot. I am actually for having an HOA so long as it’s someone who lives in the neighborhood who runs it because then there is shared interest (and I have a vote). But I’m afraid because a lot of my neighbors all want to abolish the HOA because of the experience so far. (A lot of them are first time HOA members)

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

all the rules of when ownership is transferred to the community are in your governing docs. I've never read any governing docs that have a restriction on how long the developer can control the HOA. basically you are screwed unless your bylaws state otherwise. hopefully you have read them.

vis ta vie

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Yea as stated above, my bylaws state all houses sold and model home sold. I read the bylaws, but no one can foresee a builder going from completing 10 homes a month to less than 1 a month in 1 month…

Looks like I’m just going to have to have a property attorney read into my bylaws more. I know these builder HOAs have special rules they have to be following since they can make all decisions for the HOA like the president, but Texas law requires the president live in the neighborhood. So there is some other category they get to exploit and I have no idea what it is or the limitations of it. I’ll just bite the bullet on a couple hundred bucks and see if a suit can give me the answer. Think it will just be something that is a matter of opinion by whoever picks up the case in court. A reasonable case would have to be submitted and accepted that and some form of physical proof of the impact would have to be presented and even then, it’s not a lawsuit against anyone breaking the law, but rather a lawsuit to have policies changed that can literally only be changed by one entity else-wise.

I’m a will there’s a way kind of person. I may waste my time trying, may lose a couple hundred dollars in lawyer fees, but at least I tried to make a difference to better the quality of my life.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Oh also the big one that I forgot to share.

The HOA sent a letter out to everyone that said every single person paid 600$ and some change to establish the mailbox at the property management office to actually physically mail the check too…. How on Earth, does anyone need 600$ for a mailbox, let alone, 600$ from each member of the community. It sounds like an away for them to syphon money out of the HOA bank account. Or someone royaly screwed up a typo

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Our governing docs, Wendy definitely said how long the developer was in control--I think there was a date and/or # of units sold. From what I've seen on this forum many associations have some sort of deadline in their docs.

Some are really bad like the O.P's seem to be.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

good luck.
https://texas.public.law/statutes/tex._prop._code_section_209.00591
says
If provided in the declaration, the developer can appoint board members while the community remains in the development phase, but not longer than 120 days after 75 percent of homes in the community have been sold to an owner other than the developer or a commercial home-builder.

I could foresee a developer taking years to complete an HOA subdivision, unfortunately if you cannot that's on you.

vis ta vie

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

and I'd sit down and talk to the developer before getting a lawyer involved.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

We have a PM Rep for our HOA no one likes. They work for a large PM company the Developer hired. The only thing we can do at this point is plan ahead to hired a new PM once turned over. We do NOT own the HOA thus can't decided who we hired. My best suggestion is to start shopping around for new PM companies. This will help your neighbors understand more how PM works and what they want the new one to do.

One can talk to the Developer about the PM all they want. Doesn't mean they will or need to do a thing about the PM. They hired them for a variety of potential reasons. Some you can't get them to change their minds on.

My HOA we have 2 different developers. My developer doesn't own the HOA. It is the other one. Which is an inferior developer. Our Developer hates the PM as well. They at one point wanted to take over the HOA. However, until we own the HOA, only thing can do is to do the necessary prep work for taking over. Which not only includes hiring a PM but re-writting/filing the rules. Which means removing references to the Developer. This will be a huge legal project but necessary.

Former HOA President

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

This is why I made this post! I know not everyone is keen on digging through codes and law books but I knew someone would post something that is binding that could potentially help. I just counted the lots up this morning. They are 50% complete. So unfortunately that doesn’t bind them but, could bind them sooner rather than later.

Thank you!!

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/25/2023 5:34 PM
This is what I assumed, but figured I’d post on a forum and see if I can find someone who has experience before paying for consultations lol.

I have no problem sharing.

My dues are 33.33 a month. With no explanation as to why even though many people have asked, we are charged quarterly 100$ (people wonder why we are not charged the 99.99).

We have no communal property and the only thing that our dues go to is front entrance maintenance. However, the property manager makes stupid decisions like not freeze protecting irrigation and then all the pipes freeze in the winter and now we’re paying for new irrigation even though the property manager’s responsibility is to maintain that equipment with our money.

We are having druggies shoot heroin on vacant lots and leaving needles on the sidewalks people frequent with children, dogs, or running/walking. We asked for the HOA to add cameras or take some effort into security (I.e. work with the local small town PD) and they said there is nothing they could do.

We asked for a community improvement on 1 of 2 HOA controlled vacant lots, and we got told no because the builder doesn’t want it.

We go to pay our dues, and find out there is a 20-30$ fee to process card or bank transactions, meaning the only way to not pay them an extra month of dues is to mail a check to them.

We have a field mouse problem developing in the neighborhood because the builders don’t spec trash pads to be poured on the sides of the house but the bylaws prevent our cans from being placed against the garage door (if you moved the cans to literally the sign of the house still in view it’s fine though). The HOA would rather we encourage field mice to enter our garages because we store trash in there than allow us to store the cans neatly in the drive way. (Mind you we also have can rules stating the lids have to be closed when placed at the street so it’s not a matter of over filling and being an eye soar).

We are being held accountable for lawn appearance because the builder is not making trades pick up after themselves and all their construction waste (products and workers lunch waste) blows everywhere into all our lawns. So we are not generating the waste but because fate blew it into our yards, we get served the warnings.

I’m probably forgetting more stuff. There’s honestly a lot. I am actually for having an HOA so long as it’s someone who lives in the neighborhood who runs it because then there is shared interest (and I have a vote). But I’m afraid because a lot of my neighbors all want to abolish the HOA because of the experience so far. (A lot of them are first time HOA members)

Just a few comments about your post:

When you buy into a development that is not completely built out and there is construction still happening, you have to put up with some inconveniences. I have the same issue with trash. It does blow around and land into one's yard. We just pick it up. The difference is that we are not given warnings or fines if we have some trash in our yard. I have an uncovered dumpster parked just to the left and across the street from my driveway and construction vehicles in the same vicinity. Not much can be done about that so I just drive around the obstacle course to get out of my neighborhood.

Your current developer run HOA is more restrictive than mine. We have no restrictions on where to place our trash cans. We store ours in the garage but our neighbors store theirs outside either on the side of the house or on the driveway just off to the side. I don't think asking for the lids to be closed is all that unreasonable but on occasion my neighbors have so much trash their lid won't close. That's not something that I would complain about though. No field mouse problem either, so far anyway.

I'm not certain what you mean by the irrigation system. Did you just mean at the entrance of your development? I can see being pretty annoyed by that.

We sure don't have many issues compared to yours and I sympathize with you. Unfortunately, the real estate market is unpredictable. Especially in the last few years. I would suggest you and your neighbors attempt to contact your developer and communicate your concerns. You may not get anywhere but it's worth a try. The market may pick up and you will see increased construction. Especially as Spring approaches.

My original advice still stands. You may have to consult an attorney. I don't expect our development will be turned over to the owners for a long time. Owner controlled HOA's create their own set of problems. Just stick around on this forum and you will see what I mean.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/25/2023 6:04 PM
Yea as stated above, my bylaws state all houses sold and model home sold. I read the bylaws, but no one can foresee a builder going from completing 10 homes a month to less than 1 a month in 1 month…

Looks like I’m just going to have to have a property attorney read into my bylaws more. I know these builder HOAs have special rules they have to be following since they can make all decisions for the HOA like the president, but Texas law requires the president live in the neighborhood. So there is some other category they get to exploit and I have no idea what it is or the limitations of it. I’ll just bite the bullet on a couple hundred bucks and see if a suit can give me the answer. Think it will just be something that is a matter of opinion by whoever picks up the case in court. A reasonable case would have to be submitted and accepted that and some form of physical proof of the impact would have to be presented and even then, it’s not a lawsuit against anyone breaking the law, but rather a lawsuit to have policies changed that can literally only be changed by one entity else-wise.

I’m a will there’s a way kind of person. I may waste my time trying, may lose a couple hundred dollars in lawyer fees, but at least I tried to make a difference to better the quality of my life.

Well, I'd rephrase that as "if there is a will and the laws support you, then there is a legal way". Also, there is no "couple hundred dollars" if what you want will require legal action. With that out of the way...

Take this with a grain of salt since I'm in a different state with different property laws. But I've worked for a new home builder since 2006, so I've seen a few things.

If a builder suddenly stops building, then it's very unlikely that he's just "stalling". If he isn't selling, he isn't making money - so something is driving the slowdown. Possible causes include financial difficulties, including a shift in home buying patterns, and health problems serious enough to stop him from working. The recent uptick in inflation and interest rates following years of rapidly rising home prices make me suspect that financial issues are in play. We saw that in 2008, and a number of builders who'd overextended themselves suddenly found themselves with empty lots, no market for their products, and no money to ride out the downturn. They mostly sold off their assets to builders who did have the financial wherewithal to survive. But even the survivors weren't doing much business during those years.

Long story short, whatever issue your builder is having is almost certainly bigger than you and your HOA, meaning you have limited ability to affect the outcome. Nobody stays in business without doing business. He probably wants to finish your community and move on to the next thing more than you want him to. But if the market for his product at his price point has dried up, then he has to either redesign his offerings and hope that there is a market for the new floorplans, or he slows his roll and rides out the downturn until the buyers return.

Regardless of what your governing docs say, you can't force someone to bankrupt himself. And if you do... then what? There will still be empty lots sitting there until another builder buys them and completes the community - and you have no control over when or even if this will happen. Also, keep in mind that a different home builder won't necessarily complete the community in the way it was originally planned. Things that I saw happen in 2008-2012 included redesigned or eliminated amenities, cheaper homes, and lots sold off/re-zoned to allow for rentals or other uses.

So be careful what you ask for.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

In no way am I saying I want the builder kicked out. I had problems with the builder but ultimately they are giving out decent homes at fair prices for the market. I can’t complain too much. And yes I know legal battles are a ton of money, the couple hundred dollars remark is in reference to paying consultation fees to see if there is even any legal ground. Which then loops around the will there’s a way comment. I’m not shooting from the hip here. I’m gathering information and resources, going to talk to a pro, and discover options.

I already have noticed the parallels in the market between 2007 and now. Yes I understand the market stalls. The goal isn’t anything against the CM or his company. This is solely a discussion on options dealing with a strict, money squandering, community management company, that is enforces rules that are actually creating problems for the neighborhood (like a mouse infestation) rather than admitting the problem and amending the rules to actually stop the problem. The mouse problem and the needle problem, if not handled, will become a health and safety problem and the state can end up getting involved in some way shape or form.

As many stated above, not many HOAs have the bylaws written to where they own the neighborhood for as long as the builder owns a plot of land. So I’m researching options and avenues that I myself can execute or convey to my neighbors on options for us.

And ultimately, I can’t give two cares for the economic standpoint of the builders company. That’s on them. All myself, and my neighbors, care about is our money and where it’s going. And for each of us to be charged 600$ to set up a mailbox at an office for our mailed in checks to be received to? No one is commenting on how fishy that is? Let’s say there are 100 homes completed in my neighborhood. That’s 60000$ to establish a mailbox… how.

More over, the actual property management company doesn’t actually provide us a service, as indicated by improper irrigation care, except to fine us and tell us what we can and can’t do with our houses. Again we have no communal property, just a maintained front entrance. And the PM company has clearly demonstrated they are not maintaining that when they failed to winterize it and a pipe burst in the middle of the night and hundreds of gallons of water spilled out and iced over the entire entrance road (sole entrance). It’s infuriating paying money and watching a company use it in a manner that appears theft, or to not properly maintain our stuff so we have to have MORE of our money go to fixing it. Not to mention they are incorrectly charging us Dues by 1 penny (I know that’s small and shouldn’t be cared about, but at this point it’s a display of character that they are saying who cares about the binding contract, just charge them an even 100$). And then they charge a hole months of dues just to be able to process a payment electronically. This isn’t the early 2000s when cc and debit card processing fees were super high. There is no way it would cost 30 dollars to process a debit card swipe.

The main argument here is everyone in my neighborhood feels like they are being robbed.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/26/2023 7:44 AM
In no way am I saying I want the builder kicked out. I had problems with the builder but ultimately they are giving out decent homes at fair prices for the market. I can’t complain too much. And yes I know legal battles are a ton of money, the couple hundred dollars remark is in reference to paying consultation fees to see if there is even any legal ground. Which then loops around the will there’s a way comment. I’m not shooting from the hip here. I’m gathering information and resources, going to talk to a pro, and discover options.

I already have noticed the parallels in the market between 2007 and now. Yes I understand the market stalls. The goal isn’t anything against the CM or his company. This is solely a discussion on options dealing with a strict, money squandering, community management company, that is enforces rules that are actually creating problems for the neighborhood (like a mouse infestation) rather than admitting the problem and amending the rules to actually stop the problem. The mouse problem and the needle problem, if not handled, will become a health and safety problem and the state can end up getting involved in some way shape or form.

As many stated above, not many HOAs have the bylaws written to where they own the neighborhood for as long as the builder owns a plot of land. So I’m researching options and avenues that I myself can execute or convey to my neighbors on options for us.

And ultimately, I can’t give two cares for the economic standpoint of the builders company. That’s on them. All myself, and my neighbors, care about is our money and where it’s going. And for each of us to be charged 600$ to set up a mailbox at an office for our mailed in checks to be received to? No one is commenting on how fishy that is? Let’s say there are 100 homes completed in my neighborhood. That’s 60000$ to establish a mailbox… how.

More over, the actual property management company doesn’t actually provide us a service, as indicated by improper irrigation care, except to fine us and tell us what we can and can’t do with our houses. Again we have no communal property, just a maintained front entrance. And the PM company has clearly demonstrated they are not maintaining that when they failed to winterize it and a pipe burst in the middle of the night and hundreds of gallons of water spilled out and iced over the entire entrance road (sole entrance). It’s infuriating paying money and watching a company use it in a manner that appears theft, or to not properly maintain our stuff so we have to have MORE of our money go to fixing it. Not to mention they are incorrectly charging us Dues by 1 penny (I know that’s small and shouldn’t be cared about, but at this point it’s a display of character that they are saying who cares about the binding contract, just charge them an even 100$). And then they charge a hole months of dues just to be able to process a payment electronically. This isn’t the early 2000s when cc and debit card processing fees were super high. There is no way it would cost 30 dollars to process a debit card swipe.

The main argument here is everyone in my neighborhood feels like they are being robbed.

field mice do not climb up 3ft tall trash cans you are blowing smoke.
Yes $600 for a mail box is ridiculous. Unfortunately a lot of fees are ridiculous when you live in a HOA. our MC is charing approximately $4000/year for office supplies for 15 communities managed by one person, and everything is done online.
have your bank mail the check for free if you don't like thier online fees.

lastly start looking for a better MC so when they sell 3/4 of the lots you can immediatley take over with a better BOD that fulfills your HOA's needs.

vis ta vie

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Sure they can’t climb up the plastic sides of a trash can, but most people don’t leave their cans in the middle of the garage. They will climb up other stuff to get in them, or better yet, just the scent attracts them. Huge problem in this town. Most people keep their cans outside and away from the house, but that’s not really an option with this HOA/ the way the drainage is set up between houses.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Actually a lot of the HOAs around here require you to keep trash cans indoors, because outdoor cans will attract varmints - not just mice, but we have raccoons (rabid ones, even), chipmunks, feral cats, and the critters that prey on the smaller ones (foxes, coyotes, owls, eagles, etc.). Outdoor cans also attract dogs who like to play in trash and vandals, and a good windstorm will leave trash all over the community.

Just as a general observation, not necessarily related to this. If you're the kind of person who hates not being in control of things in your environment, you probably won't be too happy living in an HOA. It doesn't matter how well it's managed - the folks in charge will inevitably do things that you don't agree with and that you won't be able to do anything about. That's the nature of HOAs. You either live with it, or you spend all of your time grousing and fighting, or you move into a community without an HOA. More than one regular poster on this forum has said that being forced into financial and legal partnerships with a bunch of strangers and putting up with the foolishness just really chaps their hides. Which is perfectly fine. For some the benefits outweigh the negatives, and for others it's the opposite. Know thyself.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Our HOA trash cans have to be taken in the same day they go out. Can not have them sitting on the side of the street all week. No big deal. Plus can not be seen from the road. People put up partial fences near their Central units to hide both. Some people do keep them in the garage. Which does attract the field mice. You can occasionally see them running about outside. We have coyotes in the area so cats are not necessarily an option. Mine was eaten by one.

Those shared mailboxes are not cheap. More HOAs are being required by the post office to put group boxes up. No longer individual homes. They just past a law here making it cluster boxes in new development. There are few manufacturers of them so it is possible to have to kick in a few hundred per neighbors to get one. Not the PM but HOA and post office.

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/26/2023 8:22 AM
Sure they can’t climb up the plastic sides of a trash can, but most people don’t leave their cans in the middle of the garage. They will climb up other stuff to get in them, or better yet, just the scent attracts them. Huge problem in this town. Most people keep their cans outside and away from the house, but that’s not really an option with this HOA/ the way the drainage is set up between houses.

instead of focusing on questionable stuff that makes you sound ridiculous, like 1 penny off, you might want to focus your energy on other things. yeah I get you are upset, but when you throw petty crap in with legitimate complaints, all people remember is the petty crap.

vis ta vie

LayaS (Nebraska)
Posts: 249

Posted:

Quote:

Shane,

I posted my response before I saw your post about the mailbox. $600 per owner does seem extreme. It is just for a box to receive your assessment payments. Right? I could see it if it is the USPS cluster box for all the owners' mail. I assume those can be expensive but even $600 per owner seems kind of high.

Buying property now days is such a complex task. This is our 6th home purchase and this was by far the most complex process than all the others combined. This is my 2nd home purchase with an HOA. The first one was a nightmare so we were hesitant to purchase in another one. So far so good. Like yours, our only expense is the maintenance to the front entrance. I am sorry for you that your new home comes with community issues. I don't know what to say about the needles found on vacant lots in your area. Call the police and have them patrol the area more often. Hang in there. Try to give it a little more time to see what the market does.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Yea I contacted the HOA about the needles and asked them to notify the police since it’s a community matter and they basically said no. So I’ve actually made a community page that I run separate of the HOA so that we can put information out to each other and talk about our issues. The needles came up through that. Basically anytime I see someone post about a needle, I call the on duty sgt. so it’s in the works, just sucks that I had to take matters into my hands like this when we pay someone to manage the community.

The letter that was sent out said the money was for a mail box to receive our checks. However, they could have misspoke in the letter because they have put in a new cluster box in the past two months. The model we have is 2850 from USPS. So very likely that a couple of those would make 600$ per house… but again, it’s the professionalism and attention to detail that just bothers the hell out of everyone in this neighborhood. They are a company whose job is to literally do nothing but HOA stuff all day long, but they still manage to screw it up. Improper mailers concerning mailboxes as just discussed. Not maintaining irrigation to the point of failure in a brand new system. And not taking in concerns about the growing mouse problem. I haven’t even mentioned that there are 10-15 people in the neighborhood who don’t even have HOA accounts because they don’t track the houses being sold at all. So there are people that have never had an account set up and the HOA is seeing them as vacant lots. It’s the quality of what the HOA members are paying for that really upsets me.

Like I said we as a community are wasting our money on the PM. That’s why members have mentioned either 1) abolishing the HOA when able 2) trying to take control of the HOA ASAP. I have a handful of neighbors who have all come to me and said if I ever actually did find some legal ground to stand on, that they would join in. With the new year now underway, I’m just now starting to educate myself through avenues like this.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/26/2023 10:07 AM
Yea I contacted the HOA about the needles and asked them to notify the police since it’s a community matter and they basically said no. So I’ve actually made a community page that I run separate of the HOA so that we can put information out to each other and talk about our issues. The needles came up through that. Basically anytime I see someone post about a needle, I call the on duty sgt. so it’s in the works, just sucks that I had to take matters into my hands like this when we pay someone to manage the community.

its not gonna get any better when the community takes over. you're gonna have a bunch of volunteers running the show and their attitude is why don't you just call the police about it, why do you call me, when you could of just called the cops?

owners asking board members to do stuff outside of the HOA"s duties gets really old really fast when you are volunteering on the Board.

vis ta vie

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

I've changed my mind. I think Shane should talk to a lawyer who's knowledgeable about HOAs and find out what his options are. Sometimes people will only learn this stuff the hard way, and paying through the nose for advice tends to focus the mind.

Prior to talking to a lawyer, I suggest learning more about HOAs so that you can ask intelligent questions. Reading the HOA's covenants, conditions and restrictions (CC&Rs) and the bylaws in their entirety is a must. There are also educational resources online that explain what ownership in an HOA involves. I'm sure there are free ones somewhere, but a quick Google search only listed paid courses. (I'm a "you get what you pay for" sort of person, and I also think online courses are a lot cheaper than a lawyer's time. Paying for a reputable service is probably worth it since the free ones may be more hit-or-miss.)

The Community Associations Institute has resources available for homeowners, board members, and community managers in their Learning Center.

Associa's website looks like they have a fair amount of content which may be worth a look. Looking through the articles, I think that experienced folks will already know this information, but newbies may find them helpful. Disclaimer: I've heard of Associa but don't know enough to vet them.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Aside from your first paragraph being a direct stab (good on you Cathy), the rest of your post was actually helpful so I’ll just pretend like you aren’t arrogant and presumptuous. I’ll check into the paid resources that have state specific education programs. Texas is a for Corp state and not a for resident state so the odds are against home owners in most ways. Also just in case you ever need legal advice in the future, most lawyer offices charge 100$ a hour for advice. So through these conversations, I can draw up questions to ask and receive legal advice on options.Thanks for the help. Oh and bless your heart

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Hit a nerve, I guess.

I have no idea if you're one of those who has to "learn things the hard way." But some of your comments suggest that you're going to get yourself into a mess unless you learn fast, and education is the best way to do it. Otherwise you'll be left with experience, which can get painful and even more expensive. That is indeed "the hard way" and is best avoided.

JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/26/2023 11:28 AM
Aside from your first paragraph being a direct stab (good on you Cathy), the rest of your post was actually helpful so I’ll just pretend like you aren’t arrogant and presumptuous. I’ll check into the paid resources that have state specific education programs. Texas is a for Corp state and not a for resident state so the odds are against home owners in most ways. Also just in case you ever need legal advice in the future, most lawyer offices charge 100$ a hour for advice. So through these conversations, I can draw up questions to ask and receive legal advice on options.Thanks for the help. Oh and bless your heart

$100 an hour barely covers a plumber let alone a lawyer.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am confused why the HOA is responsible for some of the things posted? A mouse or pest problem is on the owner not the HOA. Unless the dues covers pest control. Which likely it does not.

Plus you and neighbors are not paying for a PM. The Developer is. The owners pay the HOA dues of which the Developer is the owner of.

Think may need to step back and realize the relationship and responsibility of each party involved. It may not be what you perceive. Like a neighborhood watch for crimes should not be part of the HOA. That is separate and should be.

Former HOA President

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Hey Mellisa, very interest by this. Is it normal that the CM pays the PM? Because in the annual meeting held last year, there was explicitly a line showing that the PM was paid out of the HOA budget.

And the mouse problem is not the HOAs responsibility, but local pest control companies (3 different ones) have told numerous home owners in this neighborhood that the reason all of us are having mice enter the garage is because of the fact that our HOA requires cans to be in the garage effectively.

Now I say effectively because someone did bring up the concrete pad and the privacy fence. There are maybe 75% of the homes that putting a pad and a privacy fence is useful for. But all the houses that are near the downhill side of the neighborhood leading to the retention pod all are build on 3 foot berms with drastic slopes creating an aggressive V shape between the homes. To pour a 3x5 concrete pad on the side of my home to include a privacy fence for the cans would result in 1 side of the pad being a couple inches off the ground while the other side would be feet off the ground. So unless I put a front facing gate on the fence (which with how strict this HOA is most likely wouldn’t be allowed, I’d also encounter the problem of having to drop my trash cans off a 2 foot ledge to drag them through my yard to the street. The HOA has been asked by several members to amend the bylaws to allow us to place the cans in front of the garage door do to the circumstances. We already have rules pertaining to the appearance of cans anyways so they already have to be kept clean and closed at all times. But with our geographic location, and other neighborhoods in the area having the same mouse problem, it’s in the best interest of us as home owners, and them as an entity of the builder trying to keep the public appearance up for sales, so address the trash can issue because it’ll lead to the same problem a neighborhood down the road had where health and safety actually got involved because almost every house in the neighborhood had reported a mouse problem (nearly daily captures in every house) and it was because of the trash cans in the garage rule.

I’m not saying the mice are their problem. I am saying it’ll look bad if this neighborhood hit local news like the other neighborhood did. But I’m lately saying that a large number of members have asked for the PM to consider things differently and they emphatically tell us that nothing will be changed until the HOA is turned over.

That is a little bit more of an expanded explanation of the mouse problem and why I even brought it up. It’s not the mice necessarily, and probably as much as I’m making it out to be, but more so the fact that mice will infest, cause major damage, ect ect, and even though we are trying to work with the PM to improve the situation mutually benefiting both parties, they tell us flat out we have no say until we run the HOA. Which completely defeats the purpose of the whole section of the bylaws that discuss being a “participating member”.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You do understand the HOA is made up you and your neighbors. The PM is just a contracted company paid to handle the HOA bill paying and some management. It is NOT the HOA.

Right now you pay dues to the owner of the HOA that is the developer. They in turn pay the PM. later at turn over you and your neighbors will be paying a PM if so choose to do so. A HOA can be self managed.

So the mice problem is on you and your neighbors. Leave the PM and Developer out and still have people not following the garbage rule requirements. Only difference is you or a neighbor on the board will have to take action.

I live next to a few cotton or corn fields. We have field mice and stink bugs. I pay a pest control company to handle it. Other neighbors have to do the same. If I want the HOA to do it, it has to be added to the rules and increase the dues to cover.

Fyi: the cost of the mailboxes may seem high to some. However keep in mind the size of members. Divided evenly amongst 50 members is going to be more expensive than across 100. So 600$ could have be divided evenly amongst 50 but if 100 would have been 300...

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Owners pay for the community manager put of their assessments and it indeed is a line item in your operating budget just as you observed, Shane. It does not matter if the developer or the owners control the HOA, Owners pay for the PM.

"Arrogant and presumptuous" are the last words I'd use to describe Cathy's gentle and useful help for posters here over the past few years. And most of us avoid name-calling on this forum out common courtesy.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Yea see we can’t even participate on the board… we also pay the property managers directly. And again I also pay for pest control. And I will always pay for pest control. But we also should do things that encourage pest entry into a home.
I also already addressed the mailbox thing. It was most likely a mistake on their part for which mail box they were referencing. The math works out for it being a cluster mail box.
This neighborhood also has crop fields surrounding it so I understand.
But I think the structure of your neighborhood is entirely different than mine. The HOA is the PM here. And even though we are written on as members, we can not hold any seats l, or out anything to vote, or amend any rules. We’re just along for the ride until our PM is no longer controlling the HOA. But I repeat it. We pay our PM directly. Who then takes their cut and the rest goes to the HOA. Our builders parent company sits all the board positions.

Which in my original post I think I asked how that was allowed because I had seen regulations for Texas HOA requiring the President to reside within the neighborhood. Which is why I had asked if there was a different type of HOA they could be operating under.

Very confused by your post Melissa. Very intrigued as well.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Just to make sure I’m tracking, you are saying home owners pay for the PM, correct?

I chose the words I did Kerry because her choice of words were not conclusive for what I intended the post to be. I came to the forum to learn. Yes I have complaints, but I also have a surface level view of an iceberg on how HOAs actually work. As more and more people reply, I am learning, and learning about new avenues to pursue knowledge from, just like I have done with my careers and education. My learning style is discussion based.

However, I did feel Cathy was out of place by calling me stupid (all be it in the nicest way I’ve been called stupid) however she makes assumptions about me based on surface level knowledge, and then proceeds to offer actual useful advice. Her post would’ve been 100% more welcoming and building if she had just explained that I should explore some education avenues and provided some recommendations like she had, without the name calling.

In a matter of opinion, I do see this as arrogance.

I understand that it’s hard explaining this stuff over text, and especially to someone who feels wronged by a chain of events, but my outlook reading these posts is open to learning. I’m not here to solely learn my available avenues to take out the man. My main objective is to learn what is right and what is wrong in a world where the news only talks about HOAs in a negative light. I feel when you elect to have a mini government to control how you live, you need to be educated on the rights and wrongs. And I currently feel wronged, and have reached out to discuss options.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I did see a fit use for this forum being development of knowledge, which telling me it’s a great idea to go spend money on a lawyer so I waste my money is the exact opposite of harboring an environment fit for growth and learning. It’s actually just degrading. I’m sorry your experiences in the last few years (most likely largely due to the new generations entering HOAs and trying to learn just like me) has been… less than desirable but I am just trying ti establish the definition in my mind of how far can an HOA go before it is too far. And how can they consider us active members when we have no rights in the actually association.

All my knowledge is largely self taught through avenues such as forums. And to tell you how far that has gone, I was a reactor operator for a decade. I do take it personally unfortunately (weak point of mine) when people call me stupid for how my learning process works. Debates exist for a reason. For 1 party to persuade the opinion of another. I am hard headed which is why I use this learning approach. It’s the best way to change my outlook on things.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/26/2023 1:17 PM
Yea see we can’t even participate on the board…

Do understand that Texas requires that sellers of homes disclose the covenants to prospective buyers. See TPC 207. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PR/htm/PR.207.htm . Covenants are contractual terms (say the courts). The courts also say you knew in advance that membership on the board was restricted until such-and-such time.

ShaneJ6 (Texas)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Yes I do indeed know all HOA documents must be provided to buyers and renters prior to contract . So yes I get that it’s binding that I’m tied to all the ins and outs of the documents.

From what I gather at this point, the best I can do is educate myself further. I probably will still go to a lawyer and pay a consultation fee to, again, learn. But I’m also going to explore online courses. I think these will benefit me the best.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Reactor Operator (and so cream of the crop) Shane, do consider continuing to read at this forum. Many come to this forum concerned about developer abuses, including developers trying to retain control of the board beyond when they should. Sometimes some arm twisting and reading-aloud-of-the-covenants-and-law is needed. Sometimes (most of the time?), as it appears you know, one has to lawyer up. There is general agreement at this forum that it is no fun having to partner, at least somewhat, with a developer when it comes to owning one's home. Once volunteer directors are elected, it's often even less fun. Once control passes from the developer to the homeowners, one can then seek election to the board. Then it becomes a nightmare of unpaid work and persistent conflict.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

read the boring state laws
non profit law
HOA law
play them on a smart phone txt to speech app while driving
you can do the same with youtube hoa training videos
good luck.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

HOA stands for "Homeowners Association". It is basically a "Club" of homeowners in that defined area created by Developer/Builder. It is incorporated so that it can collect dues/money for it's operational expenses/maintenance. It is a non-profit. Spend as much as it collects on the things it needs or required.

Right now while under developer control and ownership the owners are not given the input/control when they will own it. The PM is paid by them with the dues they collect from the HOA members. That doesn't make the PM the "HOA". You and your neighbors are still the "HOA" just not in ownership role yet. That will eventually come once the contract agreement to the terms is up for the Developer to turn over.

It is also during this Development time that you and your neighbors may come across expenses like "Cluster mailboxes". Again, many postal offices are making cluster boxes a requirement for new development. It's not necessarily a "choice". Many Developers were not prepared for this change. I know many in our area were thrown a loop. Even some subdivisions not able to get their mail delivered for months to their homes. The local Post master did not properly communicate the change to cluster boxes. Matter of fact, the 3rd section of my HOA falls under the "Cluster box" rule while phase 1 & 2 do not. We will probably be asked to foot the bill for that when they finish.

It is good to educate yourself more on HOA and how they work. This site offers that based on many people's experiences. I come from a HOA that was self managed for 20 + years. The Developer was never in the picture. Now I am in a HOA that is still under construction. Developer owned. I feel much more pain than you do knowing what to expect after the transition... That is what need to educate yourself on. Not much can do now but prepare for the future.

Former HOA President

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Please don't refer to an HOA as a "club".

An HOA is not a club, or social organization, or a democracy. It is a corporation, with a corporate form of governance. In addition (quoting from one of our regulars) many are unaware of the extent to which HOAs are regulated by state and even federal law.

Unfortunately many new homeowners expect something like a club, with more loosey-goosey structures, and they become frustrated and angry when they start butting up against the realities of corporate operations.

Nobody here ever calls new homeowners (or new board members) "stupid". We often point out that they lack important information and are making incorrect assumptions - and that it's in their best interests to fix that before they make their situations worse rather than better.

In my experience, it can take years (and probably spending time on the board) before a person really understands what they've bought. We occasionally kick around ideas for shortening this process, such as required training for new home buyers. Without it, many are left with learning things the hard way through experience - which is a very effective teacher, but that's because it's often painful. As a wise person observed: good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment.

Also unfortunately, homeowners in a community association are financial and legal partners, and one person's actions can affect everyone else. That's the nature of the beast.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Texas Homeowners Association Law: The Essential Legal Guide for Texas Homeowners Associations and Homeowners

above books looks decent and is about $15 used on various stores.

vis ta vie

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ShaneJ6 on 01/26/2023 1:17 PM
But I repeat it. We pay our PM directly. Who then takes their cut and the rest goes to the HOA.

Who do you make your check out to, the PM or the HOA?

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

✓ Ask follow-up questions
✓ Share your experience
✓ Get expert advice
✓ Access 350,000 discussions

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here