Legal Interpretations of "Behind the house"

PatrickD5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1

Posted:

Within the subdivision here we have a covenant rule which states that all structures must be placed behind the house. This has been interpreted as behind the left right threshold of the foundation, rather than directly behind the structure of the home. I've heard other interpretations which is "behind the house as viewed from the street." This would then be a person standing in front of the middle of the home looking to see if a structure was visible. I'm looking for something more concrete. Is there a place where "behind the house" has been defined?

Thanks

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Why do you need to know. What need to build or remove?

Former HOA President

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Most of us here are not lawyers, and even if we were we couldn't give legal advice over the internet. The most you'll get from this group is the commonly understood meaning of the word "behind", along with our usual nitpicks. These nitpicks can include a question about the lot (eg. if the home is on a corner lot, is anything truly behind it) or if there is any other language your CC&Rs that add to or modify this specific requirement.

That said, there have been court rulings that relied on the commonly understood meaning of words, so that may be good enough.

Also, if the language in the CC&Rs is vague enough, a provision may become unenforceable. Unfortunately you'll probably need a court to determine that. If I were on a board that was dealing with something like this, I could make a good business case that spending thousands of dollars trying to enforce something that is unclear is not in the best interests of the association and should not be pursued. Or that if we wanted to spend the money, it should go toward amending the CC&Rs to make the language more concrete. So there is that as well.

Long story short, you'll probably need a lawyer to read and interpret what your CC&Rs are saying, and maybe give an opinion on whether or not this is worth pursuing.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PatrickD5 on 01/23/2023 5:41 AM
Within the subdivision here we have a covenant rule which states that all structures must be placed behind the house. This has been interpreted as behind the left right threshold of the foundation, rather than directly behind the structure of the home. I've heard other interpretations which is "behind the house as viewed from the street." This would then be a person standing in front of the middle of the home looking to see if a structure was visible. I'm looking for something more concrete. Is there a place where "behind the house" has been defined?

I echo most or all of what Cathy posted. I want to emphasize that I believe the wiser attorneys would respond that "behind the house" means "whatever the court says tomorrow, and this includes a ruling that the phrase is too ambiguous to be enforceable." When the latter happens, interpretation is made against the HOA and in favor of the owners' free enjoyment of property. On this one, both sides could lawyer up and get nowhere fast, especially if the attorneys are more interested in billable hours then a wise compromise. If you explain what you hope will be the outcome, this forum might be able to give some advice on the likelihood of achieving this.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Does your community have such s structures now? Are they visible from the street?

Or is this a brand new HOA and no such structures exist yet?

You mention it's a "covenant rule." Can you be more specific? If it's a covenant, please provide the exact wording. If it's "rule," or perhaps something that's in architectural guidelines, please specify the exact document & wording.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

seriously? it means behind the foundation, not behind the actual structure. let the homeowner put their shed or pool, or playground where they want. dont' harras them over this kind of stuff, not worth it.

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

As someone who has a neighbor who put up their playground equipment and trampoline wherever they want... Not sure like the kids bouncing looking into my bathroom window... Not to mention the swing goes up to see over my fence line.

A fat lady like myself does indeed need the room to "sit around her house"...

Why is this harassment? It is obeying the rules as described.

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/23/2023 9:06 AM
As someone who has a neighbor who put up their playground equipment and trampoline wherever they want... Not sure like the kids bouncing looking into my bathroom window... Not to mention the swing goes up to see over my fence line.

A fat lady like myself does indeed need the room to "sit around her house"...

Why is this harassment? It is obeying the rules as described.

cause it wont make a rats ass difference if the play ground is moved 20 feet over, they will still see over your fence. if interpreting the rules makes a homeowners life more restrictive and yeilds absolutely no different outcome it's just done to harrass people.

show me any parcel layout where this rule interpretation makes any difference???? there's gonna be some angle where the back yard can be seen almost all the time.

vis ta vie

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By WendyM5 on 01/23/2023 12:52 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/23/2023 9:06 AM
As someone who has a neighbor who put up their playground equipment and trampoline wherever they want... Not sure like the kids bouncing looking into my bathroom window... Not to mention the swing goes up to see over my fence line.

A fat lady like myself does indeed need the room to "sit around her house"...

Why is this harassment? It is obeying the rules as described.

cause it wont make a rats ass difference if the play ground is moved 20 feet over, they will still see over your fence. if interpreting the rules makes a homeowners life more restrictive and yeilds absolutely no different outcome it's just done to harrass people.

show me any parcel layout where this rule interpretation makes any difference???? there's gonna be some angle where the back yard can be seen almost all the time.

Excellent point, Wendy. The bathroom window needs a blind regardless of swing-set positioning if discretion is desired.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The bathroom window is already frosted. The point is they never got approval to install any of it in the first place as well.

Former HOA President

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

My ccr's state any privacy fence needs to be behind the house. So you are saying the fence can't be on the property line it has to be 20' away from the property line and behind the actual structure? see how ludicrous that is?

vis ta vie

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What are you smoking? Behind a house simply can mean between the corners of the house. It can't extend out from the sides of the footprint. Our fences are to be 3 feet from the back property lines. The sides probably are too. However, BOTH of my neighbors didn't read the CC&R's and installed their fences without approval. So the fences beside me are on the property line.

What could be the problem? Well I was already approved for my fence but my contractor was behind due to Covid. The one neighbor on one side put their fence door almost in line with my hose bib for the backyard. When I had my fence door put up now have only an inch to turn the handle. The other side they stopped the door as well. This time about 1/4 into my large square bathroom window. So when I had to put that side up. Had to move it back 2 more feet than planned. Otherwise my fence door would have been smacked dab in the middle of my 6 foot square bathroom window.

So yes it does matter where one puts stuff. My fence is 100% correct but looks completely wrong because both my neighbors installed theirs wrong. Future board may write me in violation because how weird my fence now lines up.

Former HOA President

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Behind the house is a very ambiguous statement, especially for the poor sap with the corner lot. I would interpret that as merely
aft of the rear of the slab/ foundation.

ND (PA)
Posts: 792

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PatrickD5 on 01/23/2023 5:41 AM
Within the subdivision here we have a covenant rule which states that all structures must be placed behind the house. This has been interpreted as behind the left right threshold of the foundation, rather than directly behind the structure of the home. I've heard other interpretations which is "behind the house as viewed from the street." This would then be a person standing in front of the middle of the home looking to see if a structure was visible. I'm looking for something more concrete. Is there a place where "behind the house" has been defined?

Thanks

Agree that "behind the house" is ambiguous, and you could likely find a more formalized definition for any of the various interpretations.

Instead, I suggest looking more largely/generally at your own documents ... at not only the single sentence/paragraph that you are referencing, but at other similar situations or possibly other references to "behind the house". You may be able to find a definition of sorts in your own docs, or there may be other spots it is used that would help you better understand the intent/interpretation as it was written into your docs.

Or you may not, in which case I offer my own opinion FWIW. Imagine having to place everything that could go in your back yard at some location that was directly behind the house and/or couldn't be viewed from a street. That would leave you with a triangle-shaped piece of your property very close to teh back of your house upon which to place things like a shed, kids play house, dog run, etc. This sounds and would look ridiculous. Further, if that was the intent, then I think the original authors may have been more specific as to say "directly behind the house" or similar.

In my HOA we have defined front, back, and side yards. On a square-ish house, this is a pretty straightforward concept. "Behind the house" would equate to anywhere in the back yard. Imagine a line extending from each of the back corners of the house out to the side property lines. Anything between that line and the back property line would be the "back of the house".

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ND on 01/25/2023 4:55 AM

Posted By PatrickD5 on 01/23/2023 5:41 AM
Within the subdivision here we have a covenant rule which states that all structures must be placed behind the house. This has been interpreted as behind the left right threshold of the foundation, rather than directly behind the structure of the home. I've heard other interpretations which is "behind the house as viewed from the street." This would then be a person standing in front of the middle of the home looking to see if a structure was visible. I'm looking for something more concrete. Is there a place where "behind the house" has been defined?

Thanks

Agree that "behind the house" is ambiguous, and you could likely find a more formalized definition for any of the various interpretations.

Instead, I suggest looking more largely/generally at your own documents ... at not only the single sentence/paragraph that you are referencing, but at other similar situations or possibly other references to "behind the house". You may be able to find a definition of sorts in your own docs, or there may be other spots it is used that would help you better understand the intent/interpretation as it was written into your docs.

Or you may not, in which case I offer my own opinion FWIW. Imagine having to place everything that could go in your back yard at some location that was directly behind the house and/or couldn't be viewed from a street. That would leave you with a triangle-shaped piece of your property very close to teh back of your house upon which to place things like a shed, kids play house, dog run, etc. This sounds and would look ridiculous. Further, if that was the intent, then I think the original authors may have been more specific as to say "directly behind the house" or similar.

In my HOA we have defined front, back, and side yards. On a square-ish house, this is a pretty straightforward concept. "Behind the house" would equate to anywhere in the back yard. Imagine a line extending from each of the back corners of the house out to the side property lines. Anything between that line and the back property line would be the "back of the house".

I agree.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/24/2023 4:38 AM
What are you smoking?

I'm smoking the same thing that everyone else on this thread is smoking, Common Sense. Congrats on being the Maveric who uses their own personal bias against their neighbors to justify absolutely ridiculous conclusion.

vis ta vie