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GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Hi All. Quick questions which probably have been answered on previous posts. The "units may be leased only in their entirety. No fraction or portion may be leased" clause is in our CC&Rs and is common language in many places. Am I correct in assuming that this means an owner cannot stay in his unit, while leasing the unit? In other words, it’s either owner occupied, or there is a single lease for the entire unit? It’s confusing to me. I assume the intent is to keep units from becoming frat houses, keep number of cars, noise, etc under control. Yet, under a single lease, a unit could have a significant number of occupants (depending on the state, county or other rules, and HOA rules if any). For example (and reason for my post)- a new owner currently has 4 people living in his 3 BR unit (owner lives elsewhere). He originally submitted a lease w one name, and then after numerous complaints and violations (noise, parking, damage to lawn,etc) he added the other 3 names to the lease (40+ days after 10 day rule). While the number of occupants is not a violation of a rule/law, it seems a simple way of circumventing the intent of the clause. Multiple cars, 3 unrelated groups on a single lease. In a sense, each of the 3 bedrooms makes up a fraction of the unit, although not really different from any family. Thanks for the help in clarifying or commenting on this situation. I’m only posting it because it’s a quiet condominium complex of mostly older retirees, and this is the only unit out of 80+ with multiple unrelated people on a lease as far as I know. The violations are being addressed, we’re just curious about the apparent workaround that seems to allow the frat house occupancy. Thanks much.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It is so you can not "rent a room". Have to rent the entire home not just parts. It is for preventing frat house and other type housing that can cause multiple issues.

Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GerryW1 on 01/19/2023 11:41 AM
Hi All. Quick questions which probably have been answered on previous posts. The "units may be leased only in their entirety. No fraction or portion may be leased" clause is in our CC&Rs and is common language in many places. Am I correct in assuming that this means an owner cannot stay in his unit, while leasing the unit? ...snip ...

Yes. It also means that the owner can't move out and lease portions of the unit (eg. one bedroom, one bath, plus use of the living room/dining room/kitchen). Arrangements like these are often seen in short-term "rentals" such as airbnb listings.

Also check to see if your CC&Rs limit short-term "rentals", corporate/hotel-style housing, or group homes. The situation you describe may involve multiple violations.

In addition to your CC&Rs, these arrangements may also violate local zoning laws. The zoning laws in my area limit the number of unrelated adults living in a property, and also limit the number of adults per bedroom (applies also to apartments).

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Although I agree with your interpretation, we aren't attorneys and the law in your state may be different in others. If you really want to know, ask tbe association attorney or your own private attorney. That said, it might be easier to go after the owner for allowing his tenants to behave badly. Owner landlords are responsible for educating their tenants on community rules, but they don't own the house, so you have to hammer the owner.

Based on what the attorney tells you, you could go after the owner for violating that rule, but enforcement can be tricky because you'd probably have to prove that's what the owner did. Does he have four leases or is it one person who gets the rest of the money from the roommates and pays with one check?

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Thanks. It’s long term rental, and the number of occupants is legal. I’m just having a hard time comprehending how there is this standard language including “entirety” and “fraction” , when the biggest risk to neighbor’s quiet enjoyment is a long term single lease with up to 5 occupants names on the lessen. Thankfully we’re talking about a single unit in over a decade here, but still an existing loophole that allows the frat style environment many of us want to avoid (not to mention extra cars, the constant coming and going all hours, etc). I wonder if some Association’s have passed valid amendments to restrict non-related occupancy somehow. Some states have different caps for relatives vs non- relatives, but high numbers for most condos to me.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Not knowing music about it, doesn't FL give associations the right to vet potential tenants?? Check references, or whatever?

Meanwhile, keep disciplining the owners for every single violation and every single repeated violation of the same rules. Be very strict.

I don't think you want to restrict unrelated adults. But It's possible you can restrict the number of occupants per bedroom or sf. As Cathy suggests, check your local zooming.

Any restriction of number of residents in the unit would need to be approved by Owner as an amendment to your covenants.

We considered such an amendments in our condo building for our recent CC&Rs restatement, but after 23 years, we just don't have that problem. One reason might be there're only 1-2 deeded parking spaces per unit, so extra cars would need parking offsite in our urban 'hood, which is scarce & expensive.
GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/19/2023 2:28 PM
Not knowing music about it, doesn't FL give associations the right to vet potential tenants?? Check references, or whatever?

Meanwhile, keep disciplining the owners for every single violation and every single repeated violation of the same rules. Be very strict.

I don't think you want to restrict unrelated adults. But It's possible you can restrict the number of occupants per bedroom or sf. As Cathy suggests, check your local zooming.

Any restriction of number of residents in the unit would need to be approved by Owner as an amendment to your covenants.

We considered such an amendments in our condo building for our recent CC&Rs restatement, but after 23 years, we just don't have that problem. One reason might be there're only 1-2 deeded parking spaces per unit, so extra cars would need parking offsite in our urban 'hood, which is scarce & expensive.

Thanks. In 20 years I’ve never seen any screening of renters. I think they leave it up to the homeowner. The problem is the smallest units are 3 bedrooms, and any rule/law would allow 2/bedroom. The local rule allows a maximum of 5 unrelated for a unit, which is way too many if: 5 cars, party animals, noisy, rude, working all hours and waking up Earlybirds. The “fraction or partial” phrase seems fairly worthless, as anyone with access to a bedroom has use of the entire unit. I would love to see a CC&R change for future potential issues. A “ reasonable” amendment is allowed in the leasing section of document, not sure a more restrictive rule than the county 5 occupant rule would be considered reasonable.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The HOA has to hold the OWNER feet to the ground for whomever is living in that house. The HOA can't enforce the rules on the tenants. Eventually the owner may get tired of the HOA fining them for their tenant's rule violations.

It should be noted that many landlords fail to put in their leases their tenants must follow the HOA rules. Plus probably never gave them a copy even though they are public. One of the REAL things a HOA can do about renters is to have a rule that leases must have this clause in them. It is the best option for ALL parties involved. The owner's hands may be tied because they can't evict them as it is not a condition of their lease. It can take up to a year in some cases to evict a tenant if they are not in violation of the lease.

Former HOA President
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/19/2023 3:50 PM
The HOA has to hold the OWNER feet to the ground for whomever is living in that house. The HOA can't enforce the rules on the tenants. Eventually the owner may get tired of the HOA fining them for their tenant's rule violations.

It should be noted that many landlords fail to put in their leases their tenants must follow the HOA rules. Plus probably never gave them a copy even though they are public. One of the REAL things a HOA can do about renters is to have a rule that leases must have this clause in them. It is the best option for ALL parties involved. The owner's hands may be tied because they can't evict them as it is not a condition of their lease. It can take up to a year in some cases to evict a tenant if they are not in violation of the lease.

Not in Texas, Nc and I'm guessing many other states.

https://www.texasrealestate.com/members/posts/new-hoa-laws-go-into-effect-today/#:~:text=New%20laws%20improve%20some%20conflicts%20of%20interest%20within,solicit%20bids%20for%20contracts%20for%20services%20over%20%2450%2C000.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Rules like this are almost impossible to enforce. how is one going to prove that the person living there is not related to the owner? How will they determine if they are a guest or a permanent resident? Set up security cameras and hire a PI?

vis ta vie
GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Thanks for replies. So far many fines and whole project is getting more security cameras. The administration of rules is one thing being done. There will always be a few issues a week that make their neighbors life miserable, some of which are below the fine threshold. Trying to figure out how to never have this happen again, looking at the leasing clauses and any potential change or interpretation. Right now the only defense is the high cost of 3 BR rentals, usually beyond what young rabble rousers can afford, and why it hasn’t been a problem until now.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Say Gerry, do your docs permit withholding amenity privileges from owners? If you have some worth withholding and a part of your disciplinary process, that might affect the renters and they'll leave.

I know there's 720 legislation & 718 legislation in FL and one other them includes the right to vet perspective tenants. it's come up here previously. But your type of assn. doesn't have that right?

Melissa, please Google "hold their feet to the ground." Then, Google, "Hold their feet to the fire."
GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Yes, funny you ask that, amenity/pool/clubhouse withhold was just brought up yesterday as possible step in the near future. It’s definitely allowed. The Board is following the algorithm in the rules/CC&Rs. I can’t find anything with screening renters. I have a feeling the type of owner who allows these multiple unrelated rentals would make sure they’re on best behavior, or lawyer up, if we ever started suddenly doing it. Unfortunately the owner is friends with the renters, and is paying their fines, and seems to hardly care. Grim.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
At the next hearing after proper notice, the Board should vote to withhold the pool & clubhouse since your docs allow it. Keep after the owner. If your rules don't permit your board to double fines, consider it.

We did have 3 party-guys in a condo unit once who kept having noisy after hours parties. We called the owners to hearings repeatedly. Our docs allow fines to double upon subsequent violations. So.... $100, $200; $400, $800; $1,600. Withheld guest parking (a big deal in our urban center), gym & pool access. We knew the Owner would charge the renters via not refunding any fees. The renters moved out and wrote a fairly sweet letter to the board saying they loved living a few bocks from so many clubs and from the Bay, BUT they understood that their "lifestyle" belongs in the 'burbs.
GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/19/2023 7:18 PM
At the next hearing after proper notice, the Board should vote to withhold the pool & clubhouse since your docs allow it. Keep after the owner. If your rules don't permit your board to double fines, consider it.

We did have 3 party-guys in a condo unit once who kept having noisy after hours parties. We called the owners to hearings repeatedly. Our docs allow fines to double upon subsequent violations. So.... $100, $200; $400, $800; $1,600. Withheld guest parking (a big deal in our urban center), gym & pool access. We knew the Owner would charge the renters via not refunding any fees. The renters moved out and wrote a fairly sweet letter to the board saying they loved living a few bocks from so many clubs and from the Bay, BUT they understood that their "lifestyle" belongs in the 'burbs.

Wow. Excellent. Your approach should be copy and pasted into the CC&RS of every condo across America. Kudos. We have defined fines and process, slow progression compared to your gold standard approach. Thanks.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again the hoa enforces the rules toward the owner who is the member. The owner landlord then has to deal with tenants. The hoa is not involved with the lease agreement.

Former HOA President
MichaelS56 (Minnesota)
Posts: 858
Posted:
What Melissa said is what we did as a Board. We began by communicating with the owner of the unit and then with no results of improvement, we began to fine the owner.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/20/2023 12:18 AM
Again the hoa enforces the rules toward the owner who is the member. The owner landlord then has to deal with tenants. The hoa is not involved with the lease agreement.

Why can't the association fine the tenants directly? (Warning: trick question, since the association can fine the tenants)
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Why? Tenants are NOT HOA members. The rules are for Members. Tenants are not held to uphold the rules if not in the lease agreement. The HOA is not a party on the lease agreements.

It is like someone crashes your car but you have to pay for the repairs. It is your car. The insurance agreed to only you driving it.

Former HOA President
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/20/2023 12:18 AM
Again the hoa enforces the rules toward the owner who is the member. The owner landlord then has to deal with tenants. The hoa is not involved with the lease agreement.

Why can't the association fine the tenants directly? (Warning: trick question, since the association can fine the tenants)
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
The tenant can be directly fined by the assocition, and the governing docs are already part of the lease by law.

Florida law 718.303 Obligations of owners and occupants; remedies.—
(1) Each unit owner, tenant and other invitee, and association is governed by, and must comply with the provisions of, this chapter, the declaration, the documents creating the association, and the association bylaws which are expressly incorporated into any lease of a unit.

718.303 (3) The association may levy reasonable fines for the failure of the owner of the unit or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association ...
(b) A fine or suspension levied by the board of administration may not be imposed unless the board first provides at least 14 days’ written notice to the unit owner and, if applicable, any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the unit owner sought to be fined or suspended, and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee...
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 01/20/2023 5:09 PM
The tenant can be directly fined by the assocition, and the governing docs are already part of the lease by law.

Florida law 718.303 Obligations of owners and occupants; remedies.—
(1) Each unit owner, tenant and other invitee, and association is governed by, and must comply with the provisions of, this chapter, the declaration, the documents creating the association, and the association bylaws which are expressly incorporated into any lease of a unit.

718.303 (3) The association may levy reasonable fines for the failure of the owner of the unit or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association ...
(b) A fine or suspension levied by the board of administration may not be imposed unless the board first provides at least 14 days’ written notice to the unit owner and, if applicable, any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the unit owner sought to be fined or suspended, and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee...

I still say that will only allow the owner to be fined. The tenant would have the opportunity to defend themselves if charged.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/20/2023 5:16 PM
Posted By JeffT2 on 01/20/2023 5:09 PM
The tenant can be directly fined by the assocition, and the governing docs are already part of the lease by law.

Florida law 718.303 Obligations of owners and occupants; remedies.—
(1) Each unit owner, tenant and other invitee, and association is governed by, and must comply with the provisions of, this chapter, the declaration, the documents creating the association, and the association bylaws which are expressly incorporated into any lease of a unit.

718.303 (3) The association may levy reasonable fines for the failure of the owner of the unit or its occupant, licensee, or invitee to comply with any provision of the declaration, the association bylaws, or reasonable rules of the association ...
(b) A fine or suspension levied by the board of administration may not be imposed unless the board first provides at least 14 days’ written notice to the unit owner and, if applicable, any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the unit owner sought to be fined or suspended, and an opportunity for a hearing before a committee...


I still say that will only allow the owner to be fined. The tenant would have the opportunity to defend themselves if charged.

For simplicity, I did not copy all of the law. By itself, the above snippet might not allow the tenant to be fined, but it continues,

... of at least three members appointed by the board who are not officers, directors, or employees of the association, or the spouse, parent, child, brother, or sister of an officer, director, or employee. The role of the committee is limited to determining whether to confirm or reject the fine or suspension levied by the board. If the committee does not approve the proposed fine or suspension by majority vote, the fine or suspension may not be imposed. If the proposed fine or suspension is approved by the committee, the fine payment is due 5 days after notice of the approved fine is provided to the unit owner and, if applicable, to any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the unit owner. The association must provide written notice of such fine or suspension by mail or hand delivery to the unit owner and, if applicable, to any tenant, licensee, or invitee of the unit owner.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Our association does require background checks for all tenants. It is legal in Florida.

Although our documents make the owner ultimately responsible for tenant conduct, we actually have the right to terminate the lease of a tenant if the owner can't or won't solve the issue and then charge the owner for any expenses. We also require a $500 security deposit for every lease.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So.... does the right to fine tenants apply to 720 too? Please remind me of the difference between 720 & 718. I.e., why does Gerry think that his HOA cannot? In addition, Gerry, your board can vote to make a rule to double fines in certain conditions.

Btw, our restated CC&Rs give our assn. the right--after hearing, etc.,-- to evict tenants if despite repeated attempts and hearings with the Board, the owners are unable to discipline them.

So, let's see if Melissa admits that not all HOAs in all states are unable to discipline tenants. Interesting to read your FL citations.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Ooops, thanks to Jeff for the FL citations.
GerryW1 (Florida)
Posts: 129
Posted:
Hi. Our CC&R say tenants or owners can be fined. I’m not sure how the first fine went, we’re up to 5 and owner is getting them. Problem to me is the owner is very close to the renters, has deep pockets and doesn’t mind paying the fines, apologizing, then rinse repeat. We have a fine schedule starting with 100, eventually 1000, with appeal/hearing process. While eviction, removal of pool privileges, etc are on the table, everything takes so long, and lawyers get involved. My bigger question still is how to avoid this with other units in the future? The rental rules allowing all these unrelated renters on 1 lease are recipe for disaster with close proximity units, very limited parking, and the small but significant number of people who have no regard for their neighbors or rules.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again not every state has the same laws. Florida on this is pretty much the exception. Do not know other states with their same rules. The other 49 states may not apply what the Florida law has.

Former HOA President
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Agree with Melissa on this. States differ, and Florida does seem to give associations the right to interact directly with tenants, including vetting the tenants and imposing fines on them for violations of the CC&Rs.

In other states, doing so would put the association at risk of being sued for something called "tortious interference with a contract", which allows a claim for damages against a defendant who wrongfully interferes with the plaintiff's contractual or business relationships. Our association's attorney made it very clear that the association has a legal relationship with the unit owner but not with the tenant, and that all association business needed to be directed to the unit owner.

As far as I know, Florida is in a very small minority of states on this.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 01/20/2023 6:58 PM
So.... does the right to fine tenants apply to 720 too? Please remind me of the difference between 720 & 718. I.e., why does Gerry think that his HOA cannot? In addition, Gerry, your board can vote to make a rule to double fines in certain conditions.

Btw, our restated CC&Rs give our assn. the right--after hearing, etc.,-- to evict tenants if despite repeated attempts and hearings with the Board, the owners are unable to discipline them.

So, let's see if Melissa admits that not all HOAs in all states are unable to discipline tenants. Interesting to read your FL citations.


FS 718 applies to condos. FS 720 applies to HOAs. I think there's also a FS 719 for coops but hardly anyone ever references that one.
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
I'm certainly not a lawyer. But it appears that FS 720 says you CAN fine a tenant, although I believe that the owner would be responsible if the tenant doesn't pay because ultimately the HOA can put a lien on the property. I don't know if there's any case law about this.

One article by an attorney said that theh HOA fines the owner, not the tenant.

Realistically, an HOA can fine the owner, remove access to the amenities, and eventually evict the tenant.

I know we had damage to one of our clubhouses by a tenant. We captured it on camera and were able to track down the owner of the unit. We sent him the bill and he had to pay it.

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