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JeJ1 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
We are close to a 60 unit condominium complex (CA), which is joined with a commercial building. The commercial side is our master association while we are the sub association.

I would like feedback from others in this situation. How do you go about determining which is a priority to fund reserves? Is it our reserves or their reserves. We fund their reserves on a monthly basis - now they are looking to increase that substantially. There is a possibility of special assessments.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Do your governing docs say anything about separating funds? Have you had an audit, and what has the auditor said about this topic?

The reason I'm asking is that the commercial side is almost certainly a for-profit entity, while the residential side should be operating as a non-profit. There are different laws that apply, and the two entities should not be competing for money. It m
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/14/2023 10:40 AM
Do your governing docs say anything about separating funds? Have you had an audit, and what has the auditor said about this topic?

The reason I'm asking is that the commercial side is almost certainly a for-profit entity, while the residential side should be operating as a non-profit. There are different laws that apply, and the two entities should not be competing for money. It m

Clicked send too quickly...

Does your sub-association have its own attorney, separate from the master's attorney? In a situation like this, I'd be concerned about the financially stronger part bullying the weaker one. Also (personal opinion) I have an issue with members of a non-profit subsidizing the money-making activities of a for-profit business (I'm assuming the the condo residents do not share in any of the commercial entity's profits, except maybe in an indirect way). For the same reason, I'd be concerned about a single lawyer representing both sides because of the potential for a conflict of interest. A separate attorney representing only the condos could probably give you some helpful guidance.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/14/2023 10:46 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/14/2023 10:40 AM
Do your governing docs say anything about separating funds? Have you had an audit, and what has the auditor said about this topic?

The reason I'm asking is that the commercial side is almost certainly a for-profit entity, while the residential side should be operating as a non-profit. There are different laws that apply, and the two entities should not be competing for money. It m


Clicked send too quickly...

Does your sub-association have its own attorney, separate from the master's attorney? In a situation like this, I'd be concerned about the financially stronger part bullying the weaker one. Also (personal opinion) I have an issue with members of a non-profit subsidizing the money-making activities of a for-profit business (I'm assuming the the condo residents do not share in any of the commercial entity's profits, except maybe in an indirect way). For the same reason, I'd be concerned about a single lawyer representing both sides because of the potential for a conflict of interest. A separate attorney representing only the condos could probably give you some helpful guidance.

Good advice on having their own lawyer.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We don't have a master association but our 200+ unit high rise also include a Commercial Area. It has its own reserve account. The residential area--about 95% of the premises--has its own reserve account.

But it seems you only have one reserves account?? And the master association controls it? I cna'timagine how that is effective, i.e., would the sub assn. pay to fund reserve items that only the master uses??

Say, are there any residential owners on the master association board of directors? Does you residential sub association have its own board?
LoriM15 (Florida)
Posts: 1,009
Posted:
Our three condo sub-associations each have their own reserves and their own budget, but they are required to pay the monthly fee that the master association decides. I think our documents were written badly and they should allow for the sub-associations to have automatic representation on the master board. There's nothing to say they can't have a representative on the master board, but it's not automatic. In the past there have been bad feelings between the subs and the master because they felt they weren't treated equally. Even though the master owns all the amenities, condo owners have a hard time with the fact that they pay a monthly condo fee and a monthly master fee.

I would try and get a bigger picture of how the documents are written and what your sub-association can do to get representation on the master board or how you can monitor their budget so you don't end up with big special assessments. Or at least get clarification of what is happening.

MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
You really need to have someone knowledgeable look at your documents and your financials to give you an informed answer.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Lori's reply inspires another question. Are the commercial building's roof, electricity, etc. completely separate form the residential sub? Can you tell us what % of the entire HOA the commercial budding is?
JeJ1 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Our sub assocation pays approximately 25% of joint expenses. The Master association has it's own reserves while we have our own reserves. We contribute to their reserves and our reserves. My question - which reserve should be the priority? Should the focus be on the sub-reserves or the master?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
If you're required to contribute to both, then neither "takes priority". Your budget needs to include your yearly contributions to both reserves and your assessments set accordingly.

But in your shoes I'd be very careful to make sure that this is actually the case. I'm naturally suspicious when it comes to money, I take nothing on faith and always look for monkey business - especially when large sums are involved. As I'd said upthread, this situation bothers me. The interests of the condo residents and those of the commercial owners do not totally coincide and may even conflict at times. Any financial agreements between the two need to be spelled out to the letter, including transparency requirements, and the condos' board and auditors need to review the financials carefully. I'd want to make sure that the condos' Treasurer is up to the task, and if not then find the necessary expertise elsewhere, even if I'd have to pay for it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm not sure what is meant by which accounts gets priority or "focus." The reserves specialist recommends what to contribute monthly to each account and they write a study for each account. Impossible to imagine the specialist would say or write that one account takes priority over the other. As you know a reserve study is required frequently in CA.

It sounds like the reserves analyst found some additional components or some component became much more expensive for the comm. association? Your sub board must read both studies really carefully. A few years ago, as a board ember I found several reserves components that the commercial owner should have contributed to, but had not been. The analyst corrected the errors, which were significant. But the errors stemmed from the PM's report to the analyst.

(I additionally found some operating expenses to which the comm owners should have been contributing their 5%, but had not been)

Is it your CC&Rs that states how much the sub must contribute to the master reserves and to the master's operations budgets? Yeah, Max is right your governing documents tell the story and might be more complicated than most.

Our CC&Rs were very vague on this point and I had to research the original budget docs sent to the state for approval to open our buildings.
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeJ1 on 01/14/2023 10:14 PM
Our sub assocation pays approximately 25% of joint expenses. The Master association has it's own reserves while we have our own reserves. We contribute to their reserves and our reserves. My question - which reserve should be the priority? Should the focus be on the sub-reserves or the master?
Without seeing the governing documents for the sub and master associations, what the sub should pay into reserves and what the master should pay into reserves is impossible to answer. JeJ, I advise you to post here as an attachment everything the governing documents say about reserve funding, regular assessments, and special assessments, for both associations. This site limits each attachment to 200 kilobytes in size. Please redact any identifying information from these attachments. Also when was the last reserve study done? Does this reserve study somehow group the sub association's reserve components and funding separately from the master's reserve components and funding?

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