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WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Channon v. Westward Management, Inc., a case from Illinois issued on Nov. 28, 2022, an owner sued the management company for charging an excessive fee. The supreme court ruled their version of our Condo Act prohibited an owner from suing a management company as they have no contractual relationship with the owner, so it can charge what it wants.
HOWEVER, THE COURT NOTED OWNERS CAN SUE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ALLOWING EXCESSIVE FEES TO BE CHARGED.


https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/business/2023/01/12/condo-column-case-law-update/69803018007/?fbclid=IwAR19bNteSMiLhZX8dFt6gqn2Nu0-cr8V7Ltz7yM1EhcgGm8C_iJpc55oLS4

scroll half way down to read the entire court text.

So what's next? Class action lawsuit against the HOA board?

I find it amazing that the entire decision was based on the courts interpretation on who the law was meant to protect. I think the apellet court got it right when it let the Homeowner win/sue against the MC.

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
I won't speak to the rest of the country and what their laws are. I don't do business and don't care. I do business in California and know the laws backward and forwards, twice.

HOAs are non-profits and MCs are for-profit, we can charge whatever the market will bear. In California, we have to disclose under Civil Code §4528, all fees associated with the transfer of property within an HOA. This has to be updated on annual basis. The party requesting the information for a sale or refinance will know what the fees are prior to placing an order. The party can do it on their own and hope they have a complete package and if not, they will have a liability issue. Let's say they didn't want to pay for the governing documents and went to their next-door neighbor and made copies of theirs, except they didn't have the new restated CCRs and Bylaws and amendments that might have come afterward. They had the originals from 40 years ago. They didn't disclose a delinquency or a CCR violation.

Again, I provide a service, fully disclosed to the board who signed our contract. The party is free to do what they want. I have never had a board or association complain I charge too much.

Escrows done throughout the United States are done through escrow companies, title companies, or attorneys. What we charge is a drop in the bucket to what they charge. Why not go after them for a change?
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/13/2023 2:27 PM
Channon v. Westward Management, Inc., a case from Illinois issued on Nov. 28, 2022, an owner sued the management company for charging an excessive fee. The supreme court ruled their version of our Condo Act prohibited an owner from suing a management company as they have no contractual relationship with the owner, so it can charge what it wants.
HOWEVER, THE COURT NOTED OWNERS CAN SUE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ALLOWING EXCESSIVE FEES TO BE CHARGED.


https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/business/2023/01/12/condo-column-case-law-update/69803018007/?fbclid=IwAR19bNteSMiLhZX8dFt6gqn2Nu0-cr8V7Ltz7yM1EhcgGm8C_iJpc55oLS4

scroll half way down to read the entire court text.

So what's next? Class action lawsuit against the HOA board?

I find it amazing that the entire decision was based on the courts interpretation on who the law was meant to protect. I think the apellet court got it right when it let the Homeowner win/sue against the MC.

What you provided above says the homeowner can sue the Board or directors and not the MC.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/13/2023 2:27 PM
Channon v. Westward Management, Inc., a case from Illinois issued on Nov. 28, 2022, an owner sued the management company for charging an excessive fee. The supreme court ruled their version of our Condo Act prohibited an owner from suing a management company as they have no contractual relationship with the owner, so it can charge what it wants.
HOWEVER, THE COURT NOTED OWNERS CAN SUE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ALLOWING EXCESSIVE FEES TO BE CHARGED.


https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/business/2023/01/12/condo-column-case-law-update/69803018007/?fbclid=IwAR19bNteSMiLhZX8dFt6gqn2Nu0-cr8V7Ltz7yM1EhcgGm8C_iJpc55oLS4

scroll half way down to read the entire court text.

So what's next? Class action lawsuit against the HOA board?

I find it amazing that the entire decision was based on the courts interpretation on who the law was meant to protect. I think the apellet court got it right when it let the Homeowner win/sue against the MC.

What you provided above says the homeowner can sue the Board of directors and not the MC.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I prefer to get info directly from the documents themselves vs. news articles on the issue.

If you prefer the same, here are some links:

2020 IL District Court Ruling
Channons' motion to remand (Dkt. No. 14) is granted. This action is remanded to the Circuit Court of Cook County, Illinois, Chancery Division

2021 IL Appellate Court Ruling
our [the courts] answer to the certified question is that section 22.1 of the Condominium Property Act (765 ILCS 605/22.1 (West 2016)) provides an implied cause of action in favor of a condominium unit seller against a property manager, as agent of a condominium association or board of directors, based on allegations that the property manager charged excessive fees for the production of information required to be disclosed to a prospective buyer under that statute.

2022 IL Supreme Court Ruling
we [the court] answer the certified question in the negative and reverse the judgment of the appellate court, and remand the cause to the circuit court for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
If you read the actual court rulings, the issue is that the MC was charging more then reasonable fees (outlined in the statute at the time).

The fees the plaintiff payed was $245

I have no idea what the exact language of the statute was at the time of the legal action.
Currently, The statute specifies reasonable fees with a max of $375.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/13/2023 2:27 PM
Channon v. Westward Management, Inc., a case from Illinois issued on Nov. 28, 2022, an owner sued the management company for charging an excessive fee. The supreme court ruled their version of our Condo Act prohibited an owner from suing a management company as they have no contractual relationship with the owner, so it can charge what it wants.
HOWEVER, THE COURT NOTED OWNERS CAN SUE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ALLOWING EXCESSIVE FEES TO BE CHARGED.

What the Illinois Supreme Court said is that the plaintiffs did not pursue a potential statutory claim against the association or its board. The claim would potentially be for violating the statute's requirement that, "A reasonable fee, not to exceed $375, covering the direct out-of-pocket cost of providing such information and copying may be charged by the association or its Board of Managers to the unit seller for providing such information." See page 7, paragraph 20 of the decision here: https://www.wilsonelser.com/writable/files/Client_Alerts/channon_v._westward_management_inc._2022_il_128040_277808740.1_.pdf
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/13/2023 3:46 PM
If you read the actual court rulings, the issue is that the MC was charging more then reasonable fees (outlined in the statute at the time).
Then using motion practice, the issue became whether the plaintiffs met the requirements under an 'implied private cause or right of action,' such that the plaintiffs could go outside the express boundaries of the statute and sue not the association nor the board, but instead the management company. The state supreme court said the plaintiffs did not meet the requirements.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 01/13/2023 3:28 PM
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/13/2023 2:27 PM
Channon v. Westward Management, Inc., a case from Illinois issued on Nov. 28, 2022, an owner sued the management company for charging an excessive fee. The supreme court ruled their version of our Condo Act prohibited an owner from suing a management company as they have no contractual relationship with the owner, so it can charge what it wants.
HOWEVER, THE COURT NOTED OWNERS CAN SUE THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS FOR ALLOWING EXCESSIVE FEES TO BE CHARGED.


https://www.seacoastonline.com/story/business/2023/01/12/condo-column-case-law-update/69803018007/?fbclid=IwAR19bNteSMiLhZX8dFt6gqn2Nu0-cr8V7Ltz7yM1EhcgGm8C_iJpc55oLS4

scroll half way down to read the entire court text.

So what's next? Class action lawsuit against the HOA board?

I find it amazing that the entire decision was based on the courts interpretation on who the law was meant to protect. I think the apellet court got it right when it let the Homeowner win/sue against the MC.


What you provided above says the homeowner can sue the Board of directors and not the MC.

yep which is ridiculous. If anything the MC should be held to a higher standard because they of all people should know the laws. they are paid "professionals" not volunteers.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
The MC was acting as an agent of the Association.

Hence, the action should have been against the Association.

Who should or should not have a higher standard is an ethical question, not a legal one (in my opinion).
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/13/2023 3:17 PM

Escrows done throughout the United States are done through escrow companies, title companies, or attorneys. What we charge is a drop in the bucket to what they charge. Why not go after them for a change?

cause in this case the MC broke the law and charged more than they legally could. Probably cause they thought no one would notice. If the lawmakers set a fee limit the MC should know about that. Otherwise!
MC can charge whatever the hell they want?

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/14/2023 2:21 AM
The MC was acting as an agent of the Association.

Hence, the action should have been against the Association.

Who should or should not have a higher standard is an ethical question, not a legal one (in my opinion).

So the plantiff now can sue the HOA? Maybe their is a statue of limitations that expired? At any rate it is ridiculous that it takes a few years for the case to get to the states highest court only for them to rule the plantiff sued the wrong company or even worse the plantiff does not have standing to even bring about the case. this happens way too often and is because laws are written poorly, and judges use their opinion to decide whatever way the wind blows.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/14/2023 4:41 AM

cause in this case the MC broke the law and charged more than they legally could.

From my reading of the available court documents:

That question was never ruled upon.
Hence, until an actual ruling occurs, what is a reasonable charge in this case is left as an unknown.

The issue decided by the appellate and supreme courts of IL was if the Seller, as well as the purchaser, were protected under the applicable statute and whom should the legal action be directed at.

Regarding reasonable charges, the Legislature amended the statute and put a cap of $375.
Again, it is unknown what the statute said at the time the legal action began.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
For any who are interested, here is (what appears) to be a more detailed process of the case:

Court filing From June 1922

The Court ruled in November 2022 (see earlier link)

Here are some legal analysis on the case:

Illinois Condominium Law Alert: New Implied Cause of Action a Warning to Condominium Owners, Directors, and Property Managers from lexology

Per that article:

The Appellate Court did not rule whether the $245 that plaintiffs paid to defendant was indeed excessive and unreasonable. Plaintiffs will still have to argue that issue back at the trial court.

Illinois Condominium Act: Supreme Court Refuses to Acknowledge New Private Right of Action for Sellers from national law review

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:

for those that do not want to sign up to read the article it is below. the article is outdated because in fall of 2022 the State supreme court overrulled the case and said plantiff had to sue the BOD, not the MC.
Jan 2022

Every condominium owner, director and property manager will be impacted by a recent Appellate Court decision in the case of Channon v. Westward Management, Inc. It gave every condominium seller the right to sue the property manager, as agent of a condominium association or board of directors, based on allegations that the property manager charged excessive fees for the production of information required to be disclosed to a prospective buyer.

This case arose out of a very common fact pattern. Plaintiffs filed a class action lawsuit against the property management agent. Plaintiffs alleged that, when they sold their unit in 2016, the agent charged excessive and unreasonable fees totaling $245 to provide them with the documents and other information they were required to provide to the buyers of their unit.

The Appellate Court did not rule whether the $245 that plaintiffs paid to defendant was indeed excessive and unreasonable. Plaintiffs will still have to argue that issue back at the trial court.

The Appellate Court recognized a new cause of action in favor of condominium sellers. Previously, Illinois courts case extended such protection to buyers only. At first sight, this opinion may appear a mere extension of rights from current buyers to those same buyers who will one day become sellers. However, any newly recognized cause of action will excite prospective litigants to take their grievances to court. It should also be easier to certify a class of “sellers” (past and present) within a condominium association that it would be for a group of similarly situated “buyers”. In real life, it is seller who pays the bulk of disclosure fees. If buyer is asked to pay a disclosure fee which buyer deems excessive, a seller may be forced to pay it with the hope of not losing the deal.

Finally, this case spotlights the relationship between condominium associations, their boards of directors, and the property managers that they hire. It is not just the condominium owners who are impacted by this decision, but the board members as well. If a property manager is now exposed to liability for the fees that it charges in connection with producing disclosures with each sale, it will certainly try to shift that responsibility back to the association and the board of directors. The directors will have to revisit soon the issue of protecting themselves from property managers’ indemnification claims under management agreements.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/14/2023 5:34 AM

Regarding reasonable charges, the Legislature amended the statute and put a cap of $375.
Again, it is unknown what the statute said at the time the legal action began.

they allowed the $375 to get larger overtime by indexing it.

A reasonable fee, not to exceed $375, covering the direct out-of-pocket cost of providing such information and copying may be charged by the association or its Board of Managers to the unit seller for providing such information.

Beginning one year after the effective date of this amendatory Act of the 102nd General Assembly, the $375 fee shall be increased or decreased, as applicable, by a percentage equal to the percentage change in the consumer price index-u during the preceding 12-month calendar year.

"Consumer price index-u" means the index published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the United States Department of Labor that measures the average change in prices of goods and services purchased by all urban consumers, United States city average, all items, 1982-84 = 100. An association may charge an additional $100 for rush service completed within 72 hours.
(Source: P.A. 102-976, eff. 1-1-23.)

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/14/2023 5:49 AM

The Appellate Court did not rule whether the $245 that plaintiffs paid to defendant was indeed excessive and unreasonable. Plaintiffs will still have to argue that issue back at the trial court.

Illinois Condominium Act: Supreme Court Refuses to Acknowledge New Private Right of Action for Sellers from national law review
From your link, "with the Supreme Court having spoken on the issue [of whether the plaintiffs have standing to sue under the the condo act's provisions], defense counsel [for management companies] in those cases [where other plaintiffs sue management companies] will likely seek dismissal based on this Opinion."

The plaintiffs also sued the MC under the Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act (Fraud Act) (815 ILCS 505/1 et seq.). This part of the lawsuit is still in play.

Thanks for the links to the lower court decisions, Tim. It appears the plaintiffs were billed in 2019 or 2018. You're right that the condo statute section being discussed here has changed. Back in 2018 or 2019, with regard to how much a condo association could charge, this is what the condo statute said:

"A reasonable fee covering the direct out-of-pocket cost of providing such information and copying may be charged by the association or its Board of Managers to the unit seller for providing such information." https://law.justia.com/codes/illinois/2019/chapter-765/act-765-ilcs-605/
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
AND this is MY HOA's issue because???

Former HOA President
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/14/2023 4:41 AM

cause in this case the MC broke the law and charged more than they legally could. Probably cause they thought no one would notice. If the lawmakers set a fee limit the MC should know about that. Otherwise!
MC can charge whatever... they want?
The management company did not violate the condominium act. Did the HOA or its Board? Note that the plaintiffs never sued the HOA or the board. Why not? Here's what I have so far: Per the Illinois condo statute, an owner-seller is //required// to obtain a number of documents from the HOA or Board and only the HOA or Board. Per the condo statute, the HOA is constrained as to how much it can charge the owner-seller for this service. The statute back in 2018-2019 said the HOA cannot charge more than its "out-of-pocket cost." But it's clear to me in this case the "out-of-pocket cost" was whatever the management company and HOA board negotiated.

(Back in 2018-2019, the MC billed $245. As of January 1, 2023, an additional limit of $375 is in place.)

What now remains in the Channon v. Westward Management Inc. case is to determine whether the Management Company violated the Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act (Fraud Act) (815 ILCS 505/1 et seq. (West 2016)). Based on the above, I do not think so. The price was set not so much by the Management Company here but by negotiation between the board and the MC, or possibly by lack of oversight by the board. Owners not liking this can replace the board.

I anticipate the plaintiffs (condo owners-sellers) losing.

Let's see what the trial court says in the coming months.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/14/2023 7:12 AM
AND this is MY HOA's issue because???

please read the post, this law applies to condos not HOA.

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Ellen you wrote:
The price was set not so much by the Management Company here but by negotiation between the board and the MC, or possibly by lack of oversight by the board. Owners not liking this can replace the board.

I'd bet it was lack of oversight by the board. The few MC I've talked to do not even discuss what the closing doc fees are. No monetray amount is even mentioned in the contract. My MC's own agreement on this issue is a one sentenance that says the upon reqest and fee they will get the docs. Vague as heck.

Owners can't replace the board over a policy they do not know about.
And what percentage of owners even read the 30 page long mortgage document stack during closing
What percentage if they caught unfair fees would take the effort to rally a community they moved out of to do something?

MC most likely caused this and it's sad the court didn't hold them accountable.

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Wendy, I think you and I might agree that the structure of HOAs and condo associations leaves much to be desired. As is said often here: Working with unpaid volunteer amateurs as my business partners is so undesirable that I hope to never have to do it again.

At the same time, I read posts like Florida Lori's here and know being on the board is just a brutal, horrible and unpaid job. If Loris ever leaves her board, the hole will be the size of the Grand Canyon.

Regarding resale document fees, I think that legislatures in fact hear people's concerns (very much like yours) and have cracked down quite a lot on this issue. There may be more cracking down in the future.

If a clause is vague, then I say it's on the board to get that clarified, if not immediately, then at least before a contract is renewed.

It sounds like you and your board are cracking down on this particular issue for your HOA, which is great. As has been noted here, resale documents are not that much work for anyone clever with a computer, and it is a cash cow for many management companies.

It looks like outside, specialty companies have figured this out and maybe (maybe not?) are forcing HOA management companies to offer more competitive prices? In many cases, I still do not see how these outside specialty companies can get all the paperwork that is required in certain states without the management company being pretty involved.

The lawsuit you cited is interesting and I am glad you and Tim were open to getting into the weeds of it here. So far, I am not surprised by how things developed. Still the lawsuit could be a kick in the pants for HOA boards. It could also be a shot-across-the-bow for management companies (like your HOA's) that are currently not so transparent to be more transparent?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Wendy,

You must use that site a lot.
I didn't have to sign up to read the article.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
First, the law is there to protect the buyer, NOT the seller. The association could argue that through their efforts the seller is making a bucket load of money and they are crying about $245. GIVE NE A FRIGGING BREAK!
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/14/2023 1:35 PM
First, the law is there to protect the buyer, NOT the seller. The association could argue that through their efforts the seller is making a bucket load of money and they are crying about $245. GIVE NE A FRIGGING BREAK!

If you went to your bank and they charged $245 to look up your account balance you'd be crying a storm. But since you overcharge sellers you have blinders on and think your actions are justified. Never underestimate how powerful the law of self interest is. I've calculated our current mc has racked up over $10k for emailing our hoas docs. They are freaking free to get off our website and haven't changed for 25 years. You call that an honest 3 minutes of work but everyone else calls it blatantly tKing advantage of people

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/14/2023 2:28 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/14/2023 1:35 PM
First, the law is there to protect the buyer, NOT the seller. The association could argue that through their efforts the seller is making a bucket load of money and they are crying about $245. GIVE NE A FRIGGING BREAK!


If you went to your bank and they charged $245 to look up your account balance you'd be crying a storm. But since you overcharge sellers you have blinders on and think your actions are justified. Never underestimate how powerful the law of self interest is. I've calculated our current mc has racked up over $10k for emailing our hoas docs. They are freaking free to get off our website and haven't changed for 25 years. You call that an honest 3 minutes of work but everyone else calls it blatantly tKing advantage of people

YOU ARE CLUELESS!
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/14/2023 2:21 AM
The MC was acting as an agent of the Association.

Hence, the action should have been against the Association.

Who should or should not have a higher standard is an ethical question, not a legal one (in my opinion).

Shouldn't the fees the MC charges be approved or negotiated by the HOA. It does seem kind of odd that the MC would charge so much for documents that
the cost is a burden on buyers and the like. Most states have sunset laws that prohibit charging exuberant fees to procure documents.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/14/2023 2:28 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/14/2023 1:35 PM
First, the law is there to protect the buyer, NOT the seller. The association could argue that through their efforts the seller is making a bucket load of money and they are crying about $245. GIVE NE A FRIGGING BREAK!


If you went to your bank and they charged $245 to look up your account balance you'd be crying a storm. But since you overcharge sellers you have blinders on and think your actions are justified. Never underestimate how powerful the law of self interest is. I've calculated our current mc has racked up over $10k for emailing our hoas docs. They are freaking free to get off our website and haven't changed for 25 years. You call that an honest 3 minutes of work but everyone else calls it blatantly tKing advantage of people

Wendy,

Max is correct. That IL statute section, per the court ruling you identified, was designed to protect the buyer not the seller.
The IL Supreme court ruled and cited many IL and Federal cases to back up their ruling.

The ruling did not specify what cost was reasonable.

In my last HOA, to put a package together, it cost the Association $100.
This did not include the labor, or incidental expenses.

If I recall, in a previous thread, you were considering charging $400 for your Associations paperwork.
Your concern on that thread was that the MC was making that money and not the Association and not the cost to the seller.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 01/14/2023 9:03 PM

Shouldn't the fees the MC charges be approved or negotiated by the HOA.

Every contract is written to benefit those who wrote it.
Every contract can be negotiated prior to signing.
Some negotiations will be successful and some will not.
Too much negotiations may have an offer removed.

WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/15/2023 2:31 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/14/2023 2:28 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/14/2023 1:35 PM
First, the law is there to protect the buyer, NOT the seller. The association could argue that through their efforts the seller is making a bucket load of money and they are crying about $245. GIVE NE A FRIGGING BREAK!


If you went to your bank and they charged $245 to look up your account balance you'd be crying a storm. But since you overcharge sellers you have blinders on and think your actions are justified. Never underestimate how powerful the law of self interest is. I've calculated our current mc has racked up over $10k for emailing our hoas docs. They are freaking free to get off our website and haven't changed for 25 years. You call that an honest 3 minutes of work but everyone else calls it blatantly tKing advantage of people


Wendy,

Max is correct. That IL statute section, per the court ruling you identified, was designed to protect the buyer not the seller.
The IL Supreme court ruled and cited many IL and Federal cases to back up their ruling.

The ruling did not specify what cost was reasonable.

In my last HOA, to put a package together, it cost the Association $100.
This did not include the labor, or incidental expenses.

If I recall, in a previous thread, you were considering charging $400 for your Associations paperwork.
Your concern on that thread was that the MC was making that money and not the Association and not the cost to the seller.

Why did it cost $100? It's just filling out some paperwork? There are a few third party companies that do it for about $50

Anyways after researching this topic and n
Considering this groups input, and negotiating via email with our MC our doc fees will most likely be $100-$200.the mc pushed back so hard they convinced another board member to reconsider. We already voted on this and board unanimously agreed to do our own closing. But I'm pretty sure what the mc is doing is illegal under NC law. They are now claiming they have to review the closing docs our board puts together and charge us $95/hr. Before they said their system can't process third party docs lol. I'm pushing back saying all they need to do is update the name and address. Bringing up this case which seems to show that boards can be sued for excessive fees might be good ammo against the MC false claims that the contract clause is between the MC and the seller and not the BOD and MC. The above case also strengthens that point as well since the judges said sellers can't sue the MC because MC is not in contract with them.

vis ta vie
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 5:05 AM

Why did it cost $100? It's just filling out some paperwork? There are a few third party companies that do it for about $50

The filling out of form for closing is simple. We didn't charge for that.

We did charge for the Disclosure package, see VA § 55.1-1809 if interested in the contents.
Our governing docs were printed and bound.

ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 5:05 AM

Why did it cost $100? It's just filling out some paperwork? There are a few third party companies that do it for about $50
For your HOA, you indicated elsewhere it's $50 plus some additional labor by the board.

47E says the disclosure statement has to include all of the following:

a. The name, address, telephone number, or e-mail address for the president or manager of the association to which the lot is subject.

b. The amount of any regular assessments or dues to which the lot is subject.

c. Whether there are any services that are paid for by regular assessments or dues to which the lot is subject.

d. Whether, as of the date the disclosure is signed, there are any assessments, dues, fees, or special assessments which have been duly approved as required by the applicable declaration or bylaws, payable to an association to which the lot is subject.

e. Whether, as of the date the disclosure is signed, there are any unsatisfied judgments against or pending lawsuits involving the lot, the planned community or the association to which the lot is subject, with the exception of any action filed by the association for the collection of delinquent assessments on lots other than the lot to be sold.

f. Any fees charged by an association or management company to which the lot is subject in connection with the conveyance or transfer of the lot to a new owner.

I would not volunteer to do this, especially if year after year no one else steps up to give the massive hours I was giving to board service. I would not begrudge any board member for saying the same. Board members already donate enough time and energy to the HOA. They understandably might wish to conserve energy so they can address more important matters. Burn-out is enough of a problem on HOA boards without adding more junk to the volunteer board members' plates.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 01/15/2023 9:19 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 5:05 AM

Why did it cost $100? It's just filling out some paperwork? There are a few third party companies that do it for about $50
For your HOA, you indicated elsewhere it's $50 plus some additional labor by the board.

47E says the disclosure statement has to include all of the following:

a. The name, address, telephone number, or e-mail address for the president or manager of the association to which the lot is subject.

b. The amount of any regular assessments or dues to which the lot is subject.

c. Whether there are any services that are paid for by regular assessments or dues to which the lot is subject.

d. Whether, as of the date the disclosure is signed, there are any assessments, dues, fees, or special assessments which have been duly approved as required by the applicable declaration or bylaws, payable to an association to which the lot is subject.

e. Whether, as of the date the disclosure is signed, there are any unsatisfied judgments against or pending lawsuits involving the lot, the planned community or the association to which the lot is subject, with the exception of any action filed by the association for the collection of delinquent assessments on lots other than the lot to be sold.

f. Any fees charged by an association or management company to which the lot is subject in connection with the conveyance or transfer of the lot to a new owner.

I would not volunteer to do this, especially if year after year no one else steps up to give the massive hours I was giving to board service. I would not begrudge any board member for saying the same. Board members already donate enough time and energy to the HOA. They understandably might wish to conserve energy so they can address more important matters. Burn-out is enough of a problem on HOA boards without adding more junk to the volunteer board members' plates.

Yes I'm familiar with that law but you could have also said the only thing that needs to be looked up is how much they owe and if there is a lawsuit everything else A through F doesn't change and the third party does all the work. I literally look up if they owe anything and tell third party and I'm done!

This is the type of info my pm sends to scare other board members. If I wasn't there to push back they would over power amatures into thinking how awesome of a MC they are by doing all this work.

I'd rather save the membership money by doing this than planting flower beds. It's maybe 1hr of work a year

vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 9:53 AM

Yes I'm familiar with that law but you could have also said the only thing that needs to be looked up is how much they owe and if there is a lawsuit everything else A through F doesn't change and the third party does all the work. I literally look up if they owe anything and tell third party and I'm done!

This is the type of info my pm sends to scare other board members. If I wasn't there to push back they would over power amatures into thinking how awesome of a MC they are by doing all this work.

I'd rather save the membership money by doing this than planting flower beds. It's maybe 1hr of work a year
Are you saying that, as a board member, you are ready and willing to volunteer to do this work? If so, have you offered this free labor to the board?
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Wendy

You should get copies of your residents (you know the ones that no longer live there and pay dues), and get copies of their HUD-! Settlement Statements and look at all the charges on those resale transactions, start a crusade against all those companies charging all those garbabe fees. For example, title insurance, $3000.00. I rented a 1200 sq ft offce, not own a 12 story office with my name on the top floor.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ElleN on 01/15/2023 10:01 AM
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 9:53 AM

Yes I'm familiar with that law but you could have also said the only thing that needs to be looked up is how much they owe and if there is a lawsuit everything else A through F doesn't change and the third party does all the work. I literally look up if they owe anything and tell third party and I'm done!

This is the type of info my pm sends to scare other board members. If I wasn't there to push back they would over power amatures into thinking how awesome of a MC they are by doing all this work.

I'd rather save the membership money by doing this than planting flower beds. It's maybe 1hr of work a year
Are you saying that, as a board member, you are ready and willing to volunteer to do this work? If so, have you offered this free labor to the board?

Well the third party does all most all the work. Yeah I volunteered to look up if they owe the hoa any money and the board knows this if that is your question. Again it's not a big deal as you make it sound
. in fact. Some of these third party company's have software that integrates into financial software so you literally do nothing. They log on and get the info


vis ta vie
ElleN (Idaho)
Posts: 4,420
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 10:54 AM
Posted By ElleN on 01/15/2023 10:01 AMAre you saying that, as a board member, you are ready and willing to volunteer to do this work? If so, have you offered this free labor to the board?


Well the third party does all most all the work. Yeah I volunteered to look up if they owe the hoa any money and the board knows this if that is your question. Again it's not a big deal as you make it sound
. in fact. Some of these third party company's have software that integrates into financial software so you literally do nothing. They log on and get the info

I agree it's not all that big a deal in NC. I was just wondering if you yourself had stepped up and offered to do the work for free. You have.
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
In 2009 when I worked for my first management company, all escrow packages were done by hand. We also didn't have our own HOA software and used a third-party accounting company. He charged $350.00 for all the docs and an additional $200.00 for a transfer fee. This was payable by the seller, not the buyer As I told you when you were wearing different pants, I use a third-party doc company that charges $29-$40 per order to provide the requester the docs that I provide and keep updated. They also have access to my software via the cloud and it speeds the process up tremendously. The pricing structure was not set by me BUT suggested by the doc company based on the averages of THEIR customers. Do I charge less because I have better technology?

A couple of months ago I switched banks. They handle about 5000 HOA management companies covering about 50,000 or so HOAs. It cuts down on our working, it does auto bank reconciliation monthly, auto lockbox, meaning I never handle a check from a client, bank scanning, etc, etc, etc. Do I lower my fees because I went out and got better technology?

For the life of me, I can't understand why Wendy or what their name is, going out of their way for a person MOVING OUT, not moving into their community, even one might have been a pain in their ass.
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/15/2023 11:18 AM
In 2009 when I worked for my first management company, all escrow packages were done by hand. We also didn't have our own HOA software and used a third-party accounting company. He charged $350.00 for all the docs and an additional $200.00 for a transfer fee. This was payable by the seller, not the buyer As I told you when you were wearing different pants, I use a third-party doc company that charges $29-$40 per order to provide the requester the docs that I provide and keep updated. They also have access to my software via the cloud and it speeds the process up tremendously. The pricing structure was not set by me BUT suggested by the doc company based on the averages of THEIR customers. Do I charge less because I have better technology?

A couple of months ago I switched banks. They handle about 5000 HOA management companies covering about 50,000 or so HOAs. It cuts down on our working, it does auto bank reconciliation monthly, auto lockbox, meaning I never handle a check from a client, bank scanning, etc, etc, etc. Do I lower my fees because I went out and got better technology?

For the life of me, I can't understand why Wendy or what their name is, going out of their way for a person MOVING OUT, not moving into their community, even one might have been a pain in their ass.

I'm aware you use alliance and ready Resale. You've mentioned it before

vis ta vie
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/15/2023 11:18 AM
In 2009 when I worked for my first management company, all escrow packages were done by hand. We also didn't have our own HOA software and used a third-party accounting company. He charged $350.00 for all the docs and an additional $200.00 for a transfer fee. This was payable by the seller, not the buyer As I told you when you were wearing different pants, I use a third-party doc company that charges $29-$40 per order to provide the requester the docs that I provide and keep updated. They also have access to my software via the cloud and it speeds the process up tremendously. The pricing structure was not set by me BUT suggested by the doc company based on the averages of THEIR customers. Do I charge less because I have better technology?

A couple of months ago I switched banks. They handle about 5000 HOA management companies covering about 50,000 or so HOAs. It cuts down on our working, it does auto bank reconciliation monthly, auto lockbox, meaning I never handle a check from a client, bank scanning, etc, etc, etc. Do I lower my fees because I went out and got better technology?

For the life of me, I can't understand why Wendy or what their name is, going out of their way for a person MOVING OUT, not moving into their community, even one might have been a pain in their ass.

I'm aware you use alliance and ready Resale. You've mentioned it before

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 12:03 PM
Posted By MaxB4 on 01/15/2023 11:18 AM
In 2009 when I worked for my first management company, all escrow packages were done by hand. We also didn't have our own HOA software and used a third-party accounting company. He charged $350.00 for all the docs and an additional $200.00 for a transfer fee. This was payable by the seller, not the buyer As I told you when you were wearing different pants, I use a third-party doc company that charges $29-$40 per order to provide the requester the docs that I provide and keep updated. They also have access to my software via the cloud and it speeds the process up tremendously. The pricing structure was not set by me BUT suggested by the doc company based on the averages of THEIR customers. Do I charge less because I have better technology?

A couple of months ago I switched banks. They handle about 5000 HOA management companies covering about 50,000 or so HOAs. It cuts down on our working, it does auto bank reconciliation monthly, auto lockbox, meaning I never handle a check from a client, bank scanning, etc, etc, etc. Do I lower my fees because I went out and got better technology?

For the life of me, I can't understand why Wendy or what their name is, going out of their way for a person MOVING OUT, not moving into their community, even one might have been a pain in their ass.


I'm aware you use alliance and ready Resale. You've mentioned it before

I don't use Ready
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
Sorry must of mixed you up with an old post. Shouldn't we treat people moving out of the hoa with just as much respect as those moving in. That's rhetorical no need for an answer

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 1:05 PM
Sorry must of mixed you up with an old post. Shouldn't we treat people moving out of the hoa with just as much respect as those moving in. That's rhetorical no need for an answer

If we could prove that living within an HOA added 20% in resale value to your home, shouldn't the HOA be entitled to a share of your profit?
WendyM5 (North Carolina)
Posts: 1,522
Posted:
I think you meant to say MC company take some profit not HOA?

So everytime the markets hot you take some cream off the top and when the market tanks that's your doing as well so you have to compensate the owners right? Again being rhetorical to show how this idea doesn't really sound appealing

vis ta vie
MaxB4
Posts: 3,513
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By WendyM5 on 01/15/2023 2:35 PM
I think you meant to say MC company take some profit not HOA?

So everytime the markets hot you take some cream off the top and when the market tanks that's your doing as well so you have to compensate the owners right? Again being rhetorical to show how this idea doesn't really sound appealing

You love to put your own spin to suit your narrative. Have at it. But, I correctly said HOA, NOT MC!

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